What are the GodLESS Libs going to think????

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17879317/site/newsweek/

And that serious majority may well be due to our founding principles that assure all of us remain free to worship. That's a whole lot of faith and theological discourse happening! IMHO, it's all good and should be encouraged.

Found this on Kos today, triggered by the article:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/3/31/15634/1182

And if 90 percent of us are believers, then there are not a whole lot of godless libs, now are there?

Let that stand here for the next time we hear godless left, etc...

This sunday, consider your religious freedom. Enjoy it, tell others about it. Remember what might happen without it. You might end up living a lie, depending on what your faith, in particular, happens to be. You may find your faith perverted and bastardized, molded into a mere tool to be leveraged toward a greater purpose, not within the scope and spirit of your beliefs.

You are lucky enough to live under a government that, by rule of law, keeps it's nose out of your core faith. This does come with a price; namely, religion not being funded, advocated, etc... with the public dollar. It also means matters where we might have deep convictions being subject to debate that demands tolerance to endure. We all grant this tolerance in the hopes that our deliberations result in actions that are just and true, not just because.

These things are small by way of comparison to dealing with a national faith and laws that bind people to follow others convictions, despite having their own that differ.

Having a secular government does not make us godless! If anything, it encourages worship as freedom tends to do. I've seen studies that clearly suggest our freedom in this regard does more to promote religion than not. It also means advocacy of all kinds, save those done on the public dime, are the norm, not the exception! Think about that where being a witness is concerned.

There is no threat in this state of freedom, no moral crisis, no agenda, just freedom and mutual respect for our fellow Americans, not just in the form of social norms, but codified into our law, with teeth, so that we all may be who we are and stand proud with no shame.

As always, I don't hold religion in high regard. I've posted life experiences and my reasoning here for all to see. With those postings, I've also repeatedly reaffirmed the value faith has and my support of it, in all it's forms. Just keep that in mind when considering what I just wrote. I really do want you --all of you, to be completely free to be who you are and share it with others, with no shame and the highest of hopes.

Interesting how many column inches were dedicated to talking about atheism in society and politics, though their own survey indicates somewhere between only 3-6% of people in America are athiests. Are athiests such bogeymen to the general Christian public?

Wonder what would prompt such an article about electability and non-mainstream belief systems?
(*koff*-*Mitt*-*koff*)

You know it did.

Yep, I often wonder the same thing about the numbers. Personally, I believe it's a threat. In the absense of a known, established truth, the presense of alternatives does reinforce that fact more than would happen otherwise. This is very likely the reason behind state religions, etc...

Either one is secure in their convictions or they aren't.

"...their own survey indicates somewhere betweeen only 3-6% of people in America are athiests."

My guess is that among the hard political left, where their political beliefs have essentially become their religion, that figure is probably much higher. Remember, Lenin, Marx and Engels were the founders of communism, which has godlessness at its very core.

Herb

Just can't let godless left go huh?

That's ok. It's just another useless label.

Herb- I'm curious. Who would you identify as the "hard political left"? Specific names or organizations would be helpful.

Herb-

"Jesus took the command to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and pushed the definition of who is our neighbor, out, out, and still further out, until it reached to the ends of the earth and included all of humanity - all of God's children."
- Alvin Alexsi Currier

The hard right wouldn't even recognize Jesus if he walked through their church doors.

"Who would you identify as the "hard political left"? Specific names or organizations would be helpful."

People For The American Way
ACLU
Michael Moore
Ed Asner
Noam Chomsky

Herb

Republican's don't own Evangelicals.

http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2007/03/amy-sullivan-republicans-don t-own.html

If you have time watch this 25 minute fascinating story about an American religious group that went to Iran and spoke with it's President and other leading officials I would highly recommend it. It offers some hope.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/312/video.html

Herb- Thanks. I would not disagree, other than maybe Ed Asner. All in all, I think that's a pretty short list, and not very representative of most liberal leaning folks. So, I wouldn't worry so much. Most of "us" are, I guess, more the "soft leaning left".

Get my meaning? We aren't as threatening as you might think.

People For The American Way was founded by Norman Lear, a legendary television producer who broke racial barriers, and a Republican. The late President Gerald Ford served as co-chairman for a number of years.

The ACLU fights for the rights of citizens on Constitutional issues. Colonel Oliver North is included among the many Americans the organization has defended.

Michael Moore is an angry man from Michigan who was a conservative before his hometown was left to die. He then became a populist filmmaker and took big business to task.

Ed Asner is a brilliant performer, a regular guy who refuses starpower, and a fierce defender of liberty. He is also a big reason why the Screen Actors Guild has true clout today.

Dr. Noam Chomsky is a brilliant linguist and applications of his theories have made him a pioneer in fields diverse as psychology and computer science.

So where you see a threat, I see a genius, two angry defenders of common people, and two organizations dedicated to preserving our liberty.

Here is a list from the hard right for you to decipher for me:

Ku Klux Klan
John Birch Society
Leo Strauss
Tom Metzger
Pat Robertson

I see two fascist organizations, a dangerous manipulator of social structure and two evil men who hide behind God and tradition. What do you see?

Littlesongs, the question wasn't whether someone is a "legendary televison producer" or "brilliant linguist" or even a "regular guy."

The question was who represents the hard political left. Prove me wrong.

Herb

If that is the hard political left these days, then this is truly a weird moment to be alive. In 1970, when I was born, we were at the brink of civil war. Now, being a Constitutionalist or merely liberal, puts you on the hard left. Wow. Welcome to Lululand.

I am aware of no organization of anarchists, but that is the nature of anarchy, now isn't it? The only card carrying Communists I know are sincere wonderful human beings, but throwbacks from an idealistic time between the world wars. Truth is, labels or not, they are actually dyed in the wool Socialists in a relatively European framework. They are also very very very very very very old.

So, let me get this straight, you are afraid of Grammas, Grampas, and a few bored kids in black hoodies? A fear of mixed up white youngsters is understandable and fairly universal, but duffers?

if one of your personal boogeymen is Ed fucking Asner, euthanize yourself.

Edward Asner

Democratic Socialists of America member Ed Asner’s history of ultra-leftist political involvement dates back more than twenty years. In the 1980s, Asner supported Central American Communist revolutionaries. Medical Aid, an Asner-founded group, flew leftist actor Mike Farrell to Nicaragua to assist in the surgery of Sandinista leader Nidia Diaz. Two months before the surgery, Diaz had killed 15 Americans, including four Marines and nine civilians. Another Asner group, the Committee of Concern for Central America, invited Nicaraguan Marxist strongman Daniel Ortega to the United States for a nine-day propaganda tour. Asner, Danny Glover and Woody Harrelson have all visited Fidel Castro in Cuba and returned singing his praises.

Asner also supports revolutionaries at home. He would like to free cop-killer Mumia Abu Jamal.

It is to be hoped Asner will elevate the level of his dialogue: in 1990, he devolved into the scatological while discussing the issue of taxpayer-funded obscenity. “I consider the Mapplethorpe picture – one man urinating into the mouth of another – as merely a depiction of Ronald Reagan’s trickle down theory.”

From: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=14174

Like I said, prove me wrong. Name calling is all you've got.

Herb

For cryin' out loud Herb. At least TRY to get a centrist, impartial source. I mean really! Give us all a bit more credit than that! Why don't you just say Asner kills puppies and bunnies and leave it at that? You can do better.

Little- I was trying to be kind and give Herb a bit of slack. I basically agree with your sources on all the above. It's difficult here to keep the dialouge moving forward.

Fidel Castro, the leader, has grown to be a pretend threat to our national security. You cannot have a military base in a country that does not at least tolerate your presence.

You cannot have a prison installation on that base full of reportedly dangerous insurgents, cold blooded killers and zealous revolutionaries in a country that does not at least tolerate your presence.

Like any leader who maintains popularity for decades, he is a gregarious host, a boastful nationalist, gracious and very funny. If he is impressive, he ought to be, because he has earned it.

He has flown in the face of the Monroe Doctrine and has given hope to many in Central and South America that they will someday be fed and paid. There is no freedom in poverty, even in El Norte, so do not kid yourself about the true benefits of any given system.

I am not a fan of Castro, and I cannot ignore the gruesome details of some of his history, but I do respect him for some of his ideals about self-government for all of the Americas.

Held up to the light of history, shown in the same context with other Latin leaders, especially those we defended, killed for, and installed as drug runners and murderous dictators, he was pretty small taters. He grows older and weaker, but we keep meddling as much as ever in our neighbors' business.

I think I'm gonna spin a Victor Jara record.

To keep the thread going, I believe this question was posed.

Here is a list from the hard right for you to decipher for me:

Ku Klux Klan
John Birch Society
Leo Strauss
Tom Metzger
Pat Robertson

I would like to compare our conclusions on a list of hard right and hard left. Please indulge me.

"Like I said, prove me wrong."

If I thought it would matter one iota of a shit, I'd try, but it doesn't, and it never will, and most people attempt to do so, not in an effort to reach you, but to reach the OTHER people that read these interminable "debates" you engage in. You're like the mold that penicillin is made from - things may be cured and treated with the byproduct of screwing with you, but in the end, you're still just mold. Musty and growing large on the decay of once vibrant things.

Again--if EDWARD ASNER is your personal boogeyman, you should be not only removed from the gene pool, but genitalia removal should be undertaken because no real man on this earth would consider EDWARD ASNER a threat to anything except poor Mary's newsroom advancement possibilities .

See, I'm not trying to intellectually engage you. I did that once and utterly fucking destroyed you. I know what the end result is and prefer to watch from the sidelines and shove a spear up your ass every other couple weeks for my own personal amusement. Anyone taking you at face value does so at risk to their own sanity and blood pressure, but most should recognize the joke you are and play accordingly, I'd hope.

rimshot and hi-hat, thanks and goodnight.

Edward Asner....wow.

FBR, since I have been accused of it several times in the past, I might as well do it now.

*High Five*

very nice!

Ditto from me and Chuckles the Clown, with tongue.

Rowr. Can you folks feel the love here? I am gonna screw it all up by being serious.

Since marginalizing the opinion of a centered majority is the duty of any theological empire, it is sad to note that the most outspoken humanists are still crucified, if now only in word, by those who know the story of Jesus and still believe in a church and state of unholy values and conquest.

Among many good points so far, Chris made one of the best:

"'Jesus took the command to love our neighbor as we love ourselves, and pushed the definition of who is our neighbor, out, out, and still further out, until it reached to the ends of the earth and included all of humanity - all of God's children.'
- Alvin Alexsi Currier

The hard right wouldn't even recognize Jesus if he walked through their church doors."

Amen.

Ku Klux Klan-Profoundly wrong group of people with an evil ideology.
John Birch Society-These guys have a lot of strong arguments and often are correct.
Leo Strauss-Never heard of him.
Tom Metzger-Total loon.
Pat Robertson-A loon, but like a clock, is sometimes correct.

Herb

Fatboy, you rock! But could you please stop holding back? I mean come on, tell us how you really feel! Don't soft soap it.

Herb, your Ed Asner source? Please...

Thank you Herb.

Please study Leo Strauss. Every self-respecting conservative should know this fellow and his followers. His political blueprint is how the Republican party, organized religion and America was hijacked by a handful of extremists.

"Herb, your Ed Asner source? Please..."

I gave one, FrontPageMag.com, but there are plenty of others. Even the Wikipedia cites Mr. Asner as "...a vocal leftist" which actually is rather mild when you read Mr. Asner's background.

Is Mr. Asner a fine actor? Absolutely, one of the best. However, unlike others on this board, I can readily distinguish between someone's fine acting and what most Americans see as astonishingly unsavoury political beliefs. But then again, some here may not take issue with what happened in Portland recently, when an American soldier was burned in effigy.

Herb

KKK, how many current US senators were members?
answer 1, Byrd a democrat.
If you check you would find more demos were members of the KKK than republicans.Byrd commented on the 1945 controversy raging over the idea of racially integrating the military. In his book When Jim Crow Met John Bull[4], Graham Smith referred to a letter written that year by Byrd, when he was 28 years old, to segregationist Senator Theodore Bilbo of Mississippi, in which Byrd vowed never to fight:

Rather I should die a thousand times, and see Old Glory trampled in the dirt never to rise again, than to see this beloved land of ours become degraded by race mongrels, a throwback to the blackest specimen from the wilds."[5]
He had earlier written Bilbo:

I shall never fight in the armed forces with a Negro by my side".

spme quotes from Byrd
"

"If you check you would find more demos were members of the KKK than republicans."

Because the southerner racists, STILL bent over losing the Civil War (it happened 140 years ago, get over it!), would NEVER do anything to affiliate themselves with the Republicans, nor ever vote for one. Dad gum, we can't side with the party of Lincoln! Instead of walking hand-in-arm with the traditional liberal Northern Democrat, they formed "Dixiecrats" to espouse their racial filth.

Now most are ultra-conservative Republicans, disgusted with the Democrats role in the Civil Rights era of the 60s.

This is all really stupid.

What matters is our representatives behavior today, it's impact on us, and how we choose to address that.

Herb writes:
My guess is that among the hard political left, where their political beliefs have essentially become their religion, that figure is probably much higher. Remember, Lenin, Marx and Engels were the founders of communism, which has godlessness at its very core.


Your GUESS???

So am I correct to assume you think there is absolutely no chance there may be athiests on the far right? You aren't that ignorant are you?

I do agree with one thing Marx said, religion is the opium of the masses.

Herb...
What about the GodLESS RIGHT???
Who would they be????
Anyone????
Anyone???

Whaddaya know? They have a website!

http://www.conservativeatheist.com/

Herb (and others) honestly, check it out. I'm curious to see what you think.

WOW!
Where is Herbaroni????

"Herb (and others) honestly, check it out. I'm curious to see what you think."

It appears to be essentially a libertarian perspective that attempts to leave God out.

No wonder they have few adherents.

Herb

Huh???
All neo-CONers believe in God???
WOW!
Perfection????
Think NOT!