"Saturday's Civil Rights Game, to be aired on ESPN and MLB.TV -- the latter opening coverage with a two-hour pregame show at 3:30 p.m. ET -- will culminate a two-day celebration of baseball's part in that spiritual and significant movement."
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/civil_rights_game/y2007/index.jsp

This is a beautifully ironic moment in American history, and certainly, the Cleveland Indians have had a heaping helping of irony. After all, the only World Series that the team won was against the other so-called tribe, the Boston Braves, in 1948.

Many believe the team was named for Louis Sockalexis, a legendary Native player. If this is true, I would certainly hope that someday soon they can replace Chief Wahoo with his likeness. For now, we are all left scratching our head about a soon-to-be traditional "Civil Rights Game" that is launched with such obvious old-fashioned racism.

this entire concept is mind-boggling to me. what the hell IS a civil rights game? Are there stakes involved?

Baseball will forever be broken until Josh Gibson is recognized as the best hitter ever and the Dodgers move back to Brooklyn.

Thats because he isn't, Mr Mayes is the greatest ever, with Mantel right behind him.

Josh Gibson was the greatest hitter that ever played the game. Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth, Pete Rose, Ted Williams and Ty Cobb should be listed below him. Willie Mays was the greatest all around player in history. Mickey Mantle was a gifted drunk.

Baseball did have a hand in civil rights, but not always a glad hand. The Washington Senators were moved to Minnesota after the owner did a study to find the largest and whitest fan base not already served by a major league team.

If mayes hadnt served in the military, he would have all the hitting records, and the Mick hit balls farther than anyone before or since.

Josh Gibson never hit against big league pitching. so we will never know how good he is.

As a HUGE baseball fan I have to agree about Willie Mays being the greatest all around player.It is true, if Willie didn't have to serve in the military,Hank Aaron as great as he was never would have become the Homerun king.And as a Giants fan,I'd love it if the Dodgers went back to Brooklyn.

"Josh Gibson never hit against big league pitching."

Gee, could it be because the white league would not let him?

Do not kid yourself, Negro League players were elite. The league had talent that was so good that major league scouts and managers begged year after year to have the commish change the rules.

My understanding is that Walt McCredie asked to have Blacks play for our hometown Beavers early last century. Of course, he was told that he could not.

In 1955, Artie Wilson began wowing Portland fans, but he was already famous. In 1948 he hit .402 for the Birmingham Black Barons. He was the last male professional ballplayer to achieve that goal. (In 1954, Joanne Weaver hit .429 for the Fort Wayne Daisies of the AAGPBL. She was the last pro over .400)

Later, in 1961, arguably baseball's greatest pitcher, Satchel Paige, played for the Bevos. In fact, his candid and funny autobiography details his amazing career in the Negro League and the majors. It ends with his days playing in Portland, the Cleveland AAA affiliate. He would later get back to the show.

Portland baseball history has a milestone in civil rights. In 1974, Lanny Moss managed the Portland Mavericks. Of course, we are talking about the Mavs, so there has to be more of a story to it.

"Josh Gibson never hit against big league pitching."

You're right. He hit against BETTER. I'm sorry, but Christy Mathewson, Bob Feller, even Bob GIBSON had nothing on Satch Paige.

"Christy Mathewson, Bob Feller, even Bob GIBSON had nothing on Satch Paige."

No truer words spoken. Nolan Ryan, Sandy Koufax, Roger Clemens -- make a list, he was better.

And how do you know that?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satchel_Paige

Sporting news ranks him 19 all time, I think thats low, probably low top 10.

Satchel Paige was a pitcher that the major league pitchers of the era and every era since have respected, watched, attempted to copy, and never surpassed.

Baseball was not always racially divided. Remember, the International League voted to be segregated in 1890, and the Supreme Court approved segregation nationally in 1896. That year also saw the first "national championship" series played by all-black teams.

All of that history was before Josh or Satchel played the game. It is unfair to assume that segregation did not positively affect white players, because it did. It is also silly to assume that teams did not bend the rules to let blacks play by calling them "Cuban" and the like -- because being sneaky meant winning.

Study the numbers and you will find that integrated teams play better baseball. Looking back over the last century and a half, most will agree, the true zenith of the sport was the era that began with Jackie Robinson. As a fan, the fact that America's best baseball players could not compete against one another for so long is still heartbreaking.

Actually, I'll give Koufax credit. If anyone came close to Satch or could call Satch equal, it'd be Koufax. But only for a short period of time. Koufax almost literally threw his arm off. Satch learned to refine his style as his body began to betray him. Koufax had only one speed, but at that speed, he was damn near untouchable.

it's a comparison more akin to Ali vs Marciano than anything.

Sporting News. Oh yeah, that paper.

"A new trouble has just arisen in the affairs of certain baseball associations [which] has done more damage to the International League than to any other we know of. We refer to the importation of colored players into the ranks of that body."
-- Sporting News, July 11, 1887

Take this link to the many articles that this paper wrote about Jackie Robinson. They did not embrace the idea at all.
http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/jackie/

I agree FBR. I heard somewhere that Sandy threw so hard that his left arm hung further down than his right. It got to the point where it had to be tailored into his suits. He was positively electric, but pitchers pitched more innings, so he burned fast and hot. One could argue he was a big reason they lowered the mounds.

So, it seems that with careful analysis, we have come to conclusion that the two best pitchers all-time were African and Jewish. Neither player would have been welcome for the entire history of baseball, but when given a chance, brought the game to a whole new level.

No one threw harder than Nolan Ryan, and he did it about as long as anyone.

Because of segregation, Satchel Paige had two careers. His achievements in the Negro League will never be matched, but that was only the beginning. He was 42 years old when he broke into the big leagues on July 9, 1948, with the Cleveland Indians. Nolan Ryan at the age of 42 was a legend four years from retirement. Seventeen years after his debut, Satchel was still pitching for the Indians in 1965, at the unconfirmed age of 59. While Ryan is one of the greatest ever, I imagine that even he would have agreed with this statement from the late Tug McGraw in 1979:

"I'll be 35 this year and I can only pitch as long as Satchel Paige. That gives me 35 more years."

That 65 game was a stunt, he retired in 53, and in his 6 years in the majors he had a losing record.

Ryon on the other hand had a winning record in his last 5 years. and even threw a no hitter.

I'm sure Nolan Ryan could come out of retirement and pitch 3 innings , which is all Page did in 59.
http://www.satchelpaige.com/spcare2.html
http://www.baseball-reference.com/r/ryanno01.shtml

This is an argument for SABR, but at the end of the day, one thing is clear: Nobody ever told Nolan Ryan that he could not be a major league ballplayer because of the color of his skin.

So, since Mr Page suffered from discrimination, that makes him the best pitcher ever?
As Mr Spock would say, your logic is illogical.

Page was a great pitcher, Ryan was a great pitcher, as was Gibson, Seaver and many more.

If I was a manager, and had to get one out, I would go with Ryan in his prime.

This is like arguing about the greatest general ever, My opinion Sulla closely followed by Robert E Lee.

Greatest Pilot, Adolph Galland, followed by Robin Olds.

Greaest singer, Karen carpenter.

No one ever wins these arguments, but their fun, and it makes you think.

Red licorice or black?
And I have to agree with you on Karen Carpenter.

Herb

The greatest is a good debate, and I agree, it is fun. I am not set on winning the argument, but if I were the manager, I would go with Satchel. Like he did in his prime, he would tell the fielders to go to the dugout, face the batter with only the catcher and get him out on three straight pitches.

Greatest General is very tough, so I will only go with recent history. For his pioneering work in aviation, his victorious leadership in the first conflict decided by air warfare and because of his vocal opposition to nuking our own men being held in Nagasaki as POWs, I will go with Carl Spaatz.

Greatest Pilot would be Noel Wein followed by a tie between Bob Reeves, Tex Johnston, and when I was a kid, my Dad.

Greatest Singer would be Ella Fitzgerald, followed by a tie between Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday, Sarah Vaughn and Nina Simone. Damn, I loved Karen Carpenter.

Since we are talking all-time greatest, and the greatness of baseball beyond the bigs, how about Jigger Statz? He is a fine example of why the PCL was often considered the third major league, and was classified AAAA, for a short time.

Major League Baseball has expanded or relocated into five of the original six cities that made up the Pacific Coast League, but imagine if the plan put to MLB in the 50s had succeeded? The San Diego Padres, Los Angeles Angels, Hollywood Stars, Seattle Pilots, San Francisco Seals, Oakland Oaks, and Portland Beavers had very good talent and a solid fanbase.

Today, the Dodgers would be in Brooklyn, the Giants would be in New York, and the A's would be in Kansas City. No Royals or Mets, but for at least periods of their history, that might be a blessing. Oh, and we would have a major league team with a proud tradition, and perhaps some pennants and even a World Series. Instead, the Dodgers tore the very soul from Brooklyn, and the Giants broke hearts and abandoned the Polo Grounds.

While we are on a tangent, name a pro team in Los Angeles, other than the Kings or Angels, that was not relocated to the area. The Clippers, Lakers, Dodgers, Rams and Raiders were all taken from their original communities. L.A. gets ball clubs in the same way that they help themselves to electricity and water.

To return to topic, Chief Wahoo was nowhere to be seen today. The players were dressed in very simple uniforms that looked to have been cooked up in a hurry. By all appearances, professional, but only numbers and letters. I bet somebody hinted that if Cleveland wore that logo, it would look really really bad. Boy, the equipment managers must have had kittens.

It was a truly moving event and I hope they do it again. Memphis has a gorgeous ballpark, and was host to some of the greatest and worst moments of the Movement. The Civil Rights commemoration was bittersweet with the passing of Buck O'Neil last fall.

Buck should have been voted into the Hall of Fame during his lifetime, but when the latest ballots were cast, we had to hear a bunch of prattle about McGwire being passed over instead.

Perhaps, the Civil Rights Game will wake up the committee to the reality of our history. For years, segregated Americans engaged in separate leagues, with top athletic competitors shining on both sides of the color barrier. It is time to put the prejudice to rest and recognize our best.

The Hot Stove season is over, the first pitch is tomorrow. Go Bevos. Go Mariners. End of spiel.

Can we please have reinstatepete back? He's done his time, he's earned a pardon by now and he should be in on this thread, he's tan, rested, and ready. Just like Nixon was.

Here, Here! Reinstate Reinstatepete! He's probably got some great zingers saved up by now!

Herb Wrote....

"Red licorice or black?"

I prefer the "GRAPE" myself!