Friday nights 20/20 program segment featured this story:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2971198&page=1

This relates to our previous discussion. Did the restaurant make the right decision? I believe so.

Children should be obscene and not heard!

Ralph Walsh, the husband of Julie and father of the children banned from A Taste of Heaven, said that while it was hard not to agree with McCauley, "What I'm saying is that there are ways to approach this issue without making parents feel uncomfortable, patronized, pushed away."


Get over it RALPH!!! You are a lousy parent who is rude, selfish, and doesn't even for once think of the people around you that have to listenn to Your annoying little BRATS while eating. IM SO SICK AND TIRED of these lazy ass parents who think they can let their child run wild at restraunts! Show some consideration for the people eating in the restraunt forgodsakes, and if your child lets out one of those ear piercing screetches, PLEASE BRING THEM OUTSIDE!!!!!!
Sorry but this REALLY frosts my cookies, if you know what I mean. The number of times Ive spent money on a nice dinner and have had it RUINED because some child was screaming THE ENTIRE DINNER!!! I have had to restrain myself from walking over and beating the parents. Thank god my partner was with me, and calmed me down.

Bunsofsteel: Children need to express themselves. We must NOT TRAUMATIZE little Christopher or Ashley! They'll be confused and disoriented by the reprimand, causing undo harm to their self-esteem.

Hah I 86'd one family from a restaurant I ran a few years back. I was able to get past them asking for everything free and the fact that they complained about EVERYTHING, but when their kids stood up on the counters and tables and started a food fight, I had enough. I went to the mother and father (who were sitting in their booth, laughing at the kids) to grab their stuff and leave, and to please take their business elsewhere in the future because they were not welcome back.

THIS is why you so often see the sign that says, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone" hanging in the establishment.

The restaurant did the right thing.

The ONE time my kids pulled that, I just left right then and there. Food on the table, everything!

Went back in, paid, then went home!

It all relates to parenting and in these cases the lack thereof! Parents, if your kids are behaving badly in public remove them and take care of the problem.
And as fas as: "We must NOT TRAUMATIZE little Christopher or Ashley!" BULL!
You are doing more harm by letting them think they can behave anyway they want in public.

>>>"Bunsofsteel: Children need to express themselves. We must NOT TRAUMATIZE little Christopher or Ashley! They'll be confused and disoriented by the reprimand, causing undo harm to their self-esteem."

Craig, I hope you're just being sarcastic. Confirm?

I'm pretty sure it was but I am curious as well!
Do Tell!

Craig- That is HORRIBLE parenting to let little Ashley and Cristopher run wild. Thats fine if it is at their own house, BUT NOT IN PUBLIC!
Stupid people should not be breeding!

"Craig Adams" is aka "Mr. Sarcastic"! [Hey what a great pdxradio handle!]

You know I had so much fun writing that post! I "googled" for the most popular baby names today and choice what sounded like real BRATS !

Let a parent in that same restaurant, smack their kid on the rear end, and see how many call social services or the police.

Nwokie: Good point! There's another reason why families shouldn't be there in the first place!

SORRY! I Just Can't Take It Anymore!

Simple solution, if your kids arent well behaved, take them to mcDonalds and let them burn off energy in the playground.

And if your kids are old enough to go to a nice restaurant, and their not well behaved, its probably too late to make them well behaved/

"Chuck E. Cheese"

Mother: "But it's too LOUD in that place!"

Craig: "You should have thought about that when you went off the pill!"

I think they should just close all restaurants. That would solve the problem here.

I think their should be a mandatory Beating Rule in all Restaurants. If the kids start acting up, the parents get a beating! Any child under 7 should NOT be allowed in restaurants that serve $100 plates.

I'd PAY to watch that!

Interesting concept, that people should be held responsible for their actions, or inactions, especially when their conduct affects others.

Parenting is by far THE most difficult job/task ever designed. There is no real handbook to help guide you. It's a constant learning curve.

Thankfully my wife and I made a conscience decision not to take our kids out when they were very young. We just didn't know what to expect. Yes we did the McDonalds thing for a while, then after reading Fast Food Nation we stopped going to all fast food joints.

Missing did the right thing with his kids by leaving. Today our kids are now old enough to enjoy the rare eating out we do and it's become a wonderful family time.

There are many different parenting styles and easy to criticize parents for a child’s bad behavior, but even a good child will have a melt down and believe me as a parent you can feel all the stares penetrating the back of your neck.

The hardest feedback to receive is from non-parents who seem, at least in our case, to know more about parenting because they have lots of nieces and nephews they have watched. That doesn't cut it with most of us parents who were there at the birth and the subsequent sleepless nights.

Parenting is not for wimps.

The pathetic part about this is that the STUPID parents think it is soooo cute and funny that their kids are running around the restaurant shreeking and fighting with each other. Little do they know the customers around them want to beat the kids and the parents for being so damn rude. Heck I volunteer to be the person that provides the beatings to the parents. I was at the Olive Garden once and I kid you not, after a numerous amounts of ear piercing shreeks, a guy at the table next to me stands up and Yells "GET YOUR FUCKING KID OUT OF THE RESTAURANT NOW". The parents were stunned that someone would say that to them, they eventually left and their was a huge applaud from the other customers who were proud of the guy for standing up to those dopey parents.

Chris, It is common sense that you take your child out of the restaurant after numerous times the child lets out those ear piercing shreeks. I'm glad you had the common sense because most parents at restaurants DOn't! For some reason they think that since little Johnny is gods gift to the earth and that he can scream and cry the entire dinner and thats ok! I understand that parenting can be rough, but If your child continues to act up in a restaurant, please show some consideration to other people in the restaurant and REMOVE YOUR KID! Remember that most couples go out to nice dinners to GET AWAY FROM THEIR SCREAMING KIDS!!! The last thing they want is to hear other peoples screaming kids.

While I agree with about everything that has been said here, as a practicle matter theres not much you can do, society is just too litigatious (is that a word), suppose the kid has a learning disability or is otherwise handicapped, the restaurant will violate the ADA act if they ask them to leave. The person that stood up and told the parents to get the f* out, is subject to a very large lawsuit, if he actually does anything. I have a handicapped daughter, and I know how hard it is at times, trying to raise her as normally as possible, and not intrude on others rights.

Wokie I would bet that 90% of the cases of screaming kids are the lack of parenting and just plain Laziness on the parents part. I have no sympathy for Lazy parents.

Justin, buns and any other non-parent types. Your comments about unruly kids are certainly warranted and I appreciate them.

Like I mentioned before parenting is a learning curve and that curve can be very difficult as we try to expand our children's world. The best laid plans and intentions can be quickly squelched by a child’s behavior that is not appropriate for the setting. It's not always bad parenting but the excitement of something new for a child, who by their very nature are curious. I certainly wouldn't bring very young children into a fine dining establishment wanting to reserve that privileged for my wife and I.

Chuck E Cheese is the other extreme. We have only experienced CEC a couple of times and it's waaaay too much for me. However kids are seemingly oblivious to the all the noise that does take its toll eventually. My son was at an 11 yr old birthday party last weekend at Avalon’s on Belmont. Even that place is too loud for me.

Again- not all parents truly understand the boundaries of eating out. What is allowed at home doesn't necessarily transfer into restaurant eating. Learning the difference as a parent is the tricky part.

Buns I will disagree about the 90 percent of kids screaming is caused by poor parenting. Even the most involved parents can have kids that scream. Try living with a colicky baby. Crying for no apparent reason. In Nwokie’s case he is dealing with a whole different set of circumstances because of his daughters disability. And Nwokie I want to show my deep appreciation as a parent. The dignity you are giving your daughter I commend. I don’t think I could parent a child with mental or physical disabilities.

Someday when some of you have kids I hope you find out like the rest of us just how hard it can be and that sometimes its best just to order pizza and watch a DVD of Barney.

I've been REALLY lucky with my son. He's 4 and listens. Then again, he IS 4 - ahem.

CJ- As they get older it just gets better and better.

While we are at it, How about in the library running around the aisles of shelves screaming while parents are absorbed in what they are reading without regard to screams. On public transportation of any kind. Another would be pounding loudly on a piano or organ. I frequent second hand stores and this happens a lot. Im witness to kids running all over in church screams shreaking ect. Lastly, and this for everyone with cells, please don't make calls in the library where Im trying to study. Hearing people yak on the bus is ok but let me have some quiet in a library pleeeeeeese. In church a cell rang to the tune of La Cucaracha.LOL

Yes! I've told many people on cell phones at the library, I'm trying to read, please move to another location. Or two or more people talking to each other 5 to 10 minutes at regular vocal level. I don't mind people talking if they're asking a question or trying to learn to load a microfilm machine but talkin' about their date last night....PLEASE!

I second Chris' comment. Nwokie, you are a good person for getting your daughter through. That's a tough road to follow. I've a good friend, and actually ex-employer in the same boat. It's not easy at all.

And people can be complete asses about that kind of thing.

As for not infringing on others rights, there is a balance there everybody, kids or not, needs to respect. If the parent is trying to deal, we really should cut 'em some slack.

Doing what I normally do, which is leave, is not easy! My wife was completely embarrased to the point where she was not sure leaving was worse than staying. Only took a coupla minutes outside to sort that out, but still... it's tough.

(I went back and got food to go that evening too!)

If you are ever in this spot, just get out of it quickly, firmly and nicely as is possible. The whole experience WILL impact the kids and you will have some time right after the whole thing to talk to them and they WILL listen at that moment.

Funny too, the type of place seems to matter. If you have younger kids and you think they might be ready, try the Old Spagetti Factory on Bancroft. For some reason, it's bubbly enough to keep kids interested. I find all the goings on there keeps them interested --and you can talk about people!

This topic will keep them engaged and aware of their place within the people. If you gotta walk, the bill is not bad either!

Another place to be ready to do this is the grocery store. If the whining starts, or god forbid the full on, I'm gonna just go nuts if I don't get that candy or toy, tantrum happens, just walk right then and there.

It only takes once or twice before they get the message quick.

Follow it up, with a nice long set of chores, while you talk them through every last bit of the experience twice!

You can ground them, spank them, work them, etc...

Nothing is worse than about an hour of intense conversation, done in a way that demands their attention. Working while this is happening is just gravy on top of that.

My kids have been presented with the choice of either some conversation (read big ass, in your face, mentally taxing lecture), or grounding. They will pick the grounding in most cases! (So I don't do it generally.)

Nearly every kid can be reasoned with. It takes working at their level, and some thought before you do it and a clear, simple message to build on. Done right, the lights go on, and you know the job is done.

The big secret is to not yield until those lights do go on. This is tough --damn tough, but they need to know when a lecture starts there will be some level of acceptance before it actually ends.

Where I failed in this, I make sure and revisit it the very next chance I get, invoking the other conversation "do you remember when we talked about?" to tie the experiences together. That way, it all actually ends up being one longer effort to make an impression.

Once they grok this, the conversations get a lot easier and they will interact and really learn. Why? Because not learning means dealing with ongoing efforts until they do!

With kids, only one thing works; namely, framing things in such a way that doing the right things is not only worth it, but substantially more worth it than doing the wrong ones.

Many people go right for the spanking, thinking this is a quick and easy way to do this. Most I've talked to don't even realize it. As a pretty nasty kid, I can tell you a quick --even a lengthly spanking is all over quickly. If there is no discussion, then it's really easy to wake up the next day and pretend none of it happens.

This affects their perception of worth.

Forming one ongoing experience changes that dynamic in that they cannot 'escape' back to their preferred way of doing things. The pressure remains on and as it does, so does their willingness to engage, grow and better themselves.

Parenting is totally not for wimps!

I've got one example of what I find to be great lecture stuff. Take a kid who decides to be lazy. Either they rush through things, or do them incompletely.

Teach them the meaning of the word timely. Ask them what it means and they will say, "quickly, or fast, or some other thing.

Timely means simply, the proper amount of time. This is not the fastest time, nor is it the wrong time, or a better time than others, but the proper time.

After this discussion, start in with what proper means and how it relates to the task at hand. Does proper include missing parts of the task, rushing through it, etc...?

Then bring in character. You can ask them about their friends and who is timely and who is not and why. They then will talk about those friends who seem to not have these issues. Ask them why and generally they will actually tell you!

(at this point you are getting there!)

Talk about doing something half-assed and what that means to everyone involved. Who has to finish up and was that fair? They will normally start talking about all the times they had to do this, etc...

When it's all said and done, ask them again what timely means and if they performed their task in a timely manner.

At the end of the day, they know one or two new words and their meanings in a holistic way. You then own those words and can build on them in future sessions. It's totally easy to say, "Remember when we talked about timely and proper?", than it is to re-relate a past episode and get side tracked on a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Over time, this continuity will give you the ability to speak on a level others can't. It also is one of the only ways to build your ability to relate to the point necessary to address tougher and more complex topics.

Interestingly, you will find many adults that do not grok the full meanings of what we take for simple words! Nobody did this for them and they are likely to have issues as a result.

Another side benefit is your kids command of the language will rapidly improve. At some point, they will see others sloppy and incomplete use for what it is and this marginalizes other influences because they will lack the potency yours does.

Yep, it's right out of the Orwell playbook, but it works, is humane effective and forces both the parent and the child to take a hard and clear look at things. Without this, it's the blind leading the blind.

Sorry, one more. Another great one is the difference between ignorant and stupid! Many parents will say, "That was really stupid." Of course the kid will think they are then stupid, or that the adult working with them thinks they are stupid.

When this happens (and it will), clarify ignorance from stupidity. Remind them of those brilliant things they have done, and that ignorance is a natural, human thing! Build from there. Laugh when they let a peer know they are ignorant instead of stupid, knowing you got a very important job done.

Missing- Very nice post.

I hope those who have never raised children will see the degree a very involved parent needs to be. The kinds of things Doug is posting happens everyday!! When both sets of parents are on the same page and share independent stories about how they dealt with a child it strengthens them to know how to deal with the next episode.

Being a good parent is a deliberate act. You don't have to be a great parent just a good one.

Being a parent is not for the weak of heart. It is without a doubt one of the most brutal things you will ever have to do but in the end one of the most rewarding as well! You just gotta hope you live long enough when your children have kid's and they ask you "I was not this bad was I" and then enlighten them while trying not to laugh at them!

The kinds of things Doug is posting happens everyday!!

Yep. Fricking amazing actually. You think you have stuff sorted out. Then you get into it, at the level I wrote about above, with a 12 year old. They ask stuff that just makes you wonder if you really learned anything at all!

Then there are the fun discussions! What's the difference between a bus and a van, or is anything free? (Answer no)

Hey Buns, i get what you're saying, that really "frosts my cookies" also. (lol)

"I was not this bad was I"...

Yep, I've made some dates with my kids. We are gonna compare notes when they are older! I look forward to it.

They are going to do all the things, they think I got wrong. I know I hosed some of it up, but I'm not sure just what! Maybe they will have some of those answers before I get too old to appreciate them.