Last year, or so, I wrote about these services:

http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0122/t.3559.html

(See the multicasting for HD Radio bit)

My own speculation is here: http://www.opengeek.org (link on right)

Thought the legal landscape might prevent it, thought that pay per play might come with it. Hoped it wouldn't, but it appears that's gonna become part of the model.

Could be decent actually, who knows?

Also, wrote here a while back about HD2 / AM Simulcats. Don't have the link handy, but RWOnline had a feature on that aspect of things just last week.

Personally, I'm hoping they will try it the other way around. Take an AM that's not doing well and simulcast the HD2 content, from time to time. Let people know about it, what the quality benefits are, and so on and so forth...

Might be a solid way to promote the new programming, cultivate demand for it, and potentially leverage it on both parts of the dial, both AM and FM.

Most of this leaves HD AM's out in the cold with a daytime only signal, and no multicast capability. Still think AM Stereo is a bad idea? Consider all the new options coming on line for the FM's. One of the selling points of this tech was the simple idea that "AM doesn't suck." --Tom Ray WOR.

Well, it seems to me, AM is still gonna suck when it's all said and done. The differences are just gonna be too great. So, where to go on that score? People, content and some risk taking will help. AM Stereo will help too as it will fill the gap at night as well as take advantage of the many AM Stereo capable radios out there today.

Make AM the wild dial where you never know what you might stumble into. Use the HD2 simulcasts to get people tuning, then sprinkle in some new and creative stuff. Let younger people attack the medium and get out there. We just might find our next Stern, or new format that way.

I'll bet data services are in the works too. I'm actually excited about the program guides though!

On FM, this presents a fricking ton of new station identity options, and options for how things are presented...

Want to do a mini-concert, prior to an actual local event? Do it for both old and new demos, at the same time on your secondary stream! People can hop back and forth, or just tune for the one they are most likely to identify with.

Run your special themed programs, syndicated shows, inside the music artist focus specials, etc... on your secondary stream, commercial free if you must, then air them on the primary one, but edited for time constraints and just because...

Let people know they hear it first on HD!

Of course, I still think leveraging people is the best way to go. The connections build loyalty and a sense of "my" radio station, with "my" favorite people on it. Their goings on, drama in general tends to add a lot of value to the same sets of researched tunes all the time.

Oh, on a talk FM, do a inside the show bit! Run the primary stream just as you always would. Little segments, spots, traffic, another little segment, etc....

On the commercial breaks, or at key points in the program, run some special inside and or on the break content on the secondary stream. For most of the show, the presentation is exactly the same, but for those eager HD2 listeners, give them a real treat once per program.

During this talk segment, run a contest, allow the host to play their favorite music, frame it with what it means to them, have a fun caller or two, then back to the normal action.

The hosts can leverage this special time to add value to their show offerings, and differentiate them from the same old same old AM ones...

Anyone else thinking along these lines, wondering exactly when we will see some new program and format forms that leverage the HD stuff?

Heck, call this the, "If I were king and could program an HD enabled FM, what would I do?" thread. C'mon, let's hear those ramblings, thoughts, ideas, whatever!

No bashing the HD on this thread though! IMHO, it's here, we are gonna have to deal, why not get something cool out of it?

It's fun sometimes to just explore where the tech could go --that's the point of this thread, if there is one.

Anybody know when the AM HD nighttime regulations go into effect?

Missing_kskd: 30 days after the Report & Order is published in the Federal Register...

Won't be long then. Thanks!

I'm eager to see how that actually all works out.

Either the ranting will be validated and nighttime becomes a mess, particularly for the clear channels, or it's largely moot and we all move on.

tap, tap, tap...

If it's validated, then we really should start seeing some of the ideas presented on HD, take form. I'm hoping I get a reason to actually buy a radio!

Here's the description of the session on what seems like "pay radio" that will be held in Las Vegas at NAB from http://www.nab.org/nabshow/Conferences/PaperDescription.asp?id=1205112


HD Radio® Conditional Access: What It Is; How It Fits In the Broadcast Station; and Why It Can Provide Outstanding Return on Investment
April 15, 2007 • 11:00AM - 11:30AM

Conditional Access is the precise definition of the two words put together; access is based upon certain conditions. When applied to digital broadcasting, a consumer gets just what they want, no more and no less. This model works well for subscription pay TV.

So, how can this conditional access work for terrestrial HD Radio? What programming works with conditional access? Does terrestrial HD Radio have advantages over other transmission media? Can subscription models work with the HD Radio multicast?

Intended for radio broadcast management, this paper examines, in understandable professional terms, the possible implementations of conditional access within digital radio. Conditional access equipment fits into the station, mates to other equipment that may already be within the station, operates within the station’s work flow, and creates new operations that the station must perform. This paper’s explanations will allow management personnel to comprehend the impact of this new and emerging radio broadcast capability. It will provide some business possibilities and use cases that may return station owners significant revenue, making conditional access implementation profitable.

Presenter
Thomas Rucktenwald, Director of Data Applications Deliver, NDS

Sounds interesting.

Sadly, that's not gonna be one of my reasons, but I am curious as heck to see how it all evolves.

Wonder if it ends up being something aimed, not at joe consumer, but businesses instead?

One possibility, I would consider, is a station sans spots. So you make one killer format, split the elements of it up across both the analog and pay secondary HD stream. If somebody pays (and how they would pay is a big question at this point), then they get their station sans commercials, and with extras I would assume.

Maybe, just maybe, we would see the evolution of superstations for radio! ---or it's just something a few people spring for, or perhaps one can get a "sponsor radio" card and the radios they pay for are commercial free, with revenues somehow allocated by region!

Who knows, other than we are headed into an interesting time, regardless of where we all are on the core tech issues.

After hearing all the hoo-haw about getting those "stations between the stations" by buying an HD radio?? And they're for "free"??

Somebody has been lying to me then!

Gonna be a LOT of tap dancing on this...but broadcasters will look for some sort of way to recoup the costs of licensing the Ibiquity technology (which I view as legalized extortion) if this tech proves out and takes off. That's still a VERY BIG "if"!!

Stay tuned...

Oh yeah. You know that's gonna happen for sure.

Agreed on the extortion bit. The industry will be kicking itself over and over and over for not leveraging open tech for this. IMHO, that may well doom IBOC to the same fate AM Stereo saw.

What I want to know is how they expect to recover those dollars at essentially our expense? Seems to me, they've not fully explored all the options yet. (Fricking people, new content exploration, etc..)

Returns on this stuff should not be a sure thing. If this were actually the case, perhaps the buyers of the tech would look a bit harder at the whole package before jumping in.

Re: Pay radio.

For me, I'm not worried at all about this. Either it will be lame, aimed at businesses, or will actually be compelling and will be hacked.

I'm actually never gonna pay for over the air on principle. ...err that's not true. If doing that puts people back into the equation, I'll do it, but only for that reason, none other.

One positive: No Broadcast Flag encumberance for digital radio!

This may well make time-shifting possible afterall.

I smell a new round of tech innovations that will delay this tech, or obsolete existing purchases earlier than expected.

But, if we get time-shifting and program guides, look out! Things may actually get interesting, given the right expectations are set.

http://digital-am-fm.com/2007/03/fcc_approves_iboc_rules.html

"Either it will be lame, aimed at businesses, or will actually be compelling and will be hacked."

It will be. I can almost guarantee you that it will be. Look at cable TV--scrambled channels were broadcast, and quite a few enterprising individuals crafted descrambler boxes to get premium channels without paying a penny.

Look at analogue sattelite even, like the archaic Videocipher 1 & 2 systems. Same thing, different format.

Sure enough someone will figure out Ibiquity's code and will craft a descrambler box, or re-written base code firmware with algorithms to automatically convert the so-called "pay radio" into an absolutely free form like the secondary channels are.

Remember for years how SCA supposedly was a "by subscription only" supcarrier channel? And how many enterprising folks built adaptors or demodulators to put on/in their rigs to receive these channels? (In fact I have three such radios myself, and I use them a great deal.)

In the end pay-based IBAC will be a total waste of time, money and resources because someone will figure out how to decode it for free. They said CSS encoding (on DVDs) was unbreakable. Then what's all the rot about DeCSS??

Like I say, same &4!t, different format.

Personally, I never have been a fan of having to pay to hear radio or watch TV. I always have thought that that was an extremely stupid, needless concept. Broadcasts should always be free to receive and listen to/watch. All I can say is *if* IBAC becomes the norm and analogue radio is switched off (knock on wood) and the "pay radio" fad catches on, I sure hope to be the proud owner of one of the "hacked" radios.

Before someone "hacks" into the subscription programming that doesn't exist yet, someone is going to have to reverse-engineer Ibiquity's codec to get the "free" programming.

Let me know when that's done.

Won't take long.

Trust me on that one. That proprietary codec is a variant on the mp3-pro stuff. It's not anything substantially new, in that it's just another hybrid wavelet codec, with spectral replication on the receiver end for the higher frequencies.

The big question is one of worth.

Frankly, if you don't see it hacked, there is nothing on!

Regarding the potential hacking of Ibiquity radio firmware, has anyone else considered the possibility that disgruntled employees or former employees of Ibiquity might leak technical details about the codec to "get back" at the company? If pay programming were to become a reality, the incentive to develop a pirated codec would be quite high.

Absolutely.

Expand that circle of people to those developing firmware for HD Radios and you've got quite a bunch of potential leaks.

When they refused to publish the codec specification, along with RAND licensing, I knew pay radio was part of the model. Here we are today.

On our collective spectrum, anybody should be able to make a radio. That's how it has always been, and should continue into the future. Hope the hack happens quick and dirty on principle alone, who cares about the programming.

The codec is one thing. How the data transmission and error correction is implemented with the dozens to hundreds of subcarriers is another. There are thousands of possible ways to do this with COFDM. You can't even begin to reverse-engineer the codec until you know you're getting the right data. This makes cracking Videocypher look like a weekend project.

CSS which is hardly a model of advanced encryption took years to crack and they started with a perfectly correct byte stream.

Don't get me wrong. I'm totally looking forward to listening to HD Radio on my Linux box but I'm not holding my breath.

Maybe so.

I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it will happen. If it doesn't actually happen, then the content isn't worth the hassle in the first place.

Assuming that pay content shows up on HD-Radio, I think that there will be two hacker camps:

1) People who want to try to create a completely open-source receiver on philosophical grounds or for the intellectual challenge.

2) People who just want to defeat the "Conditional Access" feature in their receivers so that they can listen to premium programs for free.

The people in the latter group don't have to completely reverse-engineer the entire radio to reach their goal.

I think I would fall a little into both camps, personally. Sort-of a little bit of a "centrist" view here.

In the former, I would likely be in the "philosophical" category more than the intellectual challenge. Paying to listen to radio (I think) is just morally wrong!!

Agreed!

Frankly, I'm hoping for a legal challenge. I personally don't think this is ok.

What about paying to watch television? DTV stations have already broadcasted pay programming. (until USDTV went out of business) so I think this is legal. It doesn't seem any different from encrypted SCA services.

There was room in the spectrum for these, and they were added, not co-opted like what is currently going on.

Back when we had ON TV, for example, it was no biggie. Here we have a wide open and empty dial where adding a pay service only improved the experience for everyone.

The IBOC trades analog robustness, particularly on AM, for digital bandwidth. On the FM, my scan and seek functions are now useless. Might as well just tune manually for the station... With buttons, that's a complete pain in the arse. At times the stations are more noisy as well. I suspect this part of things will get a bit worse with the extended hybrid modes coming on line.

On AM it's noise hiss and reduced bandwidth.

My point is that we are seeing a sharp reduction in overall quality of service in trade for what is not really a more solid delivery system in many respects.

I like the FM IBOC because the multi-stream capability opens the door for some nice new station identities, lots of new format options, program guide (hell yes!), etc...

Those things are serious value adds, if the industry would actually leverage them in that way, of course. IMHO, that's worth the other issues. I think the whole IBOC thing is a mess, but the potential on the FM side has serious merit. If it improves my radio, then I'm willing to entertain that and see what happens.

My core beef is that instead of actually seeing these value adds, which require some investment and research to realize, the pay model will provide the return instead.

In this scenario, we are now talking about a reduced quality of service to make room for pay programming. IMHO, that's theft from the public plain and simple. It's also a total dodge in that the already set expectations do not make this aspect of HD Radio clear. So, those supporters of the tech, currently enjoying the extra channels may well be funding what will be a pay scenario and likely a serious reduction in the quality of what is existing free radio.

The DTV scenario, and pay only TV channels did not present this same dynamic.

Feels like a bait and switch to me. Same with the data services. SCA didn't impact anybody and is a nice value add for broadcasters. I'm all for that kind of stuff, given it empowers better programming for all of us.

Putting the conditional access stuff on the IBOC airwaves will sharply limit any real innovation, in terms I wrote about above. It will also likely see more bandwidth, which may in turn, degrade free radio further than the tech already does as well.

So, we pay in terms of reduced quality of service on analog, we pay for new radios, we pay with more spots to help with the additional build out overhead, we pay in terms of reduced numbers of people adding value, automation, and other attemtps to pull cost out of the dial, we pay for premium content likely avaliable elsewhere, and we pay in terms of a non-open broadcast specification, and we pay for what else now???

Sounds like a boondoggle to me.

"On the FM, my scan and seek functions are now useless. Might as well just tune manually for the station... "

Why is your radio scanning frequencies ending in even 100khz? My home system scans in 200khz increments and has no problem skipping around the HD stations. But then it's good receiver.

How does IBOC reduce the quality of analog FM again? I've noticed no reduction of quality although it's possible to get some noise from extended hybrid stations with low quality receivers.

If they add IBOC and no interference happens then I'd have to argue that, just like with DTV, there was a lot of bandwidth being wasted and it's good that it's being used now. Why waste these resources?

We don't pay for new radios: the old ones will still work. People can live the rest of their lives never knowing that HD Radio ever existed.

You don't have to pay for premium content if you don't want to -- that's why it's (I mean will be maybe) premium content. Premium content hasn't harmed any medium that I can think of. How did SCA not "impact" anyone and "empower better programming"?

> Why is your radio scanning frequencies ending in
> even 100khz? My home system scans in 200khz
> increments and has no problem skipping around the
> HD stations. But then it's good receiver.

I have wondered this for many years. It seems that virtually all car radios tune in 200 kHz increments, which is correct for the North American market. However many home hifi tuners tune and scan in 100 kHz increments. I can't think of any good reason why the firmware in the home tuners is programmed to do this.

On a secondary note, I have a beef against this argument that DTV reclaims wasted bandwidth by allowing the use of adjacent channels in a given area. Regular analog TVs and VCRs have been using high selectivity SAW filters for many years, partly because adjacent channel rejection became important with the advent of cable TV. Spectrum could have been (and I believe actually was) "reclaimed" by loosening the channel assignment taboos that had been established in the 1950s. [For reference, these taboos were no adjacent channels other than 4&5 or 6&7 could be assigned a market, and on UHF, assignments couldn't be closer than one every 6th channel. The purpose of these rules was to prevent interference on TVs that had poor IF selectivity or that used low frequency IFs. In the 1950s and early 60s, there were some designs that put the IF roughly in the 21-25 MHz range, rather than the 40-46 MHz range.]

Wouldn't you say that the 200 khz spacing for the stations in the FM band is also too wide and that this bandwidth is also being wasted?

I'm using a nice SONY car radio. It hits all the IBOC stuff, also tunes 200khz.

My home tuner is 70 / 30, skipps the IBOC most of the time.

Missing--

My radio in the truck tunes 100kHz spacing on FM, making the "Scan" function absolutely worthless. Hits all the IBAC buzz, loud and clear.

Sure gets good reception tho!!

This means BOFF--it's hit an IBAC subchannel. Doesn't mean it can decode it. (Too old--radio was made in 1997 or probably sometime shortly beforehand.)

Needless to say, scan function always has been worthless for me to begin with, unless I am in some far-off area like Pendleton or maybe to find the five FM stations broadcasting in the Dalles--I always have used the "TUNING KNOB" instead being the Luddite that I am!! ;o)

Regarding pay radio being worth(y)/(less):

Even if there isn't anything of worth to the "average Joe listener" on pay radio I still would jump at the chance to purchase/acquire (preferrably acquire) a "hacked" IBAC radio in order to make a statement.

(You know the routine--early 20s, young and rebellious, F----- the bueraucrats, etc.)

My friends would be listening to my rig tuned to some sweet pay-based rock and roll channel on KXYZ's secondary IBAC for absolutely free (F----- the industry, young and rebellious.....) they would take notice and I would tell them "see? You hear what you are missing??"

Radios that tune FM in 100kHz increments do so to facilitate one product working for the entire world market.

that way they dont have to make a specific model for north america and another everywhere else.

I have to tell you that my HD radio doesn't stop on anything that isn't a real station unless I switch to manual tuning. It's also the only radio I've heard that receives 910 next to the KEX towers with no interference except being sucked out or at least, down. I'm not very strong on AM HD at this point: 1330 seems to come and go all over town including on Sunnyside Road by Kaiser Hospital, very near the towers and not in their null.

My Yamaha T-85 home tuner totally skips KZEL (the only Eugene HD) when scanning in the widest IF bandwidth setting. It also does not receive KZEL in stereo unless one of the two narrow modes are used (on a 4 position switch).

The radio in a 2005 Nissan Altima I recently rented would always land on 95.9 when scanning up, and 96.3 when scanning down. That radio wasn't very sensitive either.

My '97 Honda radio always lands right on 96.1 (200Mhz steps).

Randy_in_eugene:

What about KWAX? It is HD now.

The T-85 has the same problem receiving stereo on 91.1 in the wider modes. It skips KWAX scanning down in "wide", but lands on 91.1 scanning up.

Strange, my Yamaha Tx-950 hits all the Portland HD stations dead on frequency in auto tune mode. My wide mode is slightly more narrow than normal, however, as I have replaced the stock 230 Khz ceramic filters with 180s. I have 110s in the narrow mode, and auto tune works fine in that mode also.

91.5 KOPB-FM turned their HD3 signal on today with programming from at least their radio reading service, Golden Hours. I heard some NPR news as well.

My Sangean HD tuner says they are using transmission mode MP1, so I assume they have just split the 96 Kbps up three ways... any idea what bit rate they are using for the HD-3 channel?
The HD-3 sounds like a pretty low bit rate to my ears.

I discovered them this morning just after 11 o'clock. I listened for awhile and would say they don't sound quite as good as KEX's HD. The other 2 channels seemed unchanged. According to the Ibiquity site, KRSK-HD3 is up and running so they must be close.

Kent: Thanks for posting the KOPB-FM HD3 info.

Jr Tech--

I thought MPEG1 couldn't handle multiplexing/multicasting........that's why MPEG2/DVB is used on satellite and terrestrial HDTV (at least on HDTV *outside* North America...)

Maybe it works differently with audio-only broadcasts??

Curious...............
--------------------------------------

So if Golden Hours is now on IBAC, about how much longer do you think I have before my TV\SAP radio becomes useless, aside from that grim date in February 2009?

(Hopefully if OPB is smart they will continue SAPcasting right until the end, given the general apathy towards IBAC I have noticed, and also keeping with their philosophy of an "accessible information network.")

Incidentally, Kent, how does a speech broadcast sound in FM IBAC? Is it as high of fidelity as SAP or is it tinny-sounding and "watery" like most of the music IBACs and pretty much all AM IBACs are that I have heard?

And do they run it in stereo or the mono mix that they also send the internet audio channels in?

Motozak:
Ibiquity has defined different "service modes" for HD transmission. Primary modes are MP1 to MP7, secondary modes are MS1 to MS4. These mode definitions are not related to MPEG parameters.

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/pdfs/Waveforms_FM.pdf

I listened to a few OTR programs last night on KOPB-3, and heard some "watery" artifacts, but no worse IMHO than the OTR channel (118) on Sirius. The other two channels on OPB still sound quite good.
"Dragnet" was in mono.

I've only noticed the "watery" sound on AM and now HD3. Both HD1 and 2 sound great without any artifacts that I can hear! HD2 usually sounds better, probably because no one tries to make it sound like the main channel. I think it's unfair to say people are apathetic about HD radio: Things are just getting started. Stations are going on the air and receiver manufacturers are being lined up. The public has only recently known of its existence. There's a new chip that should make portable application a reality by this fall. Give it 5 years and see if there hasn't been marked improvement in its success. It took FM 25 years to get moving. I think we can do better than that.

I haven't heard any bad-sounding HD2 signals. KOPB-FM HD3 is definitely watery-sounding, especially with speech. I don't know what their rate is yet. It could be too that the source material is already data reduced.

KRSK isn't going to do HD3 until further notice, and an HD3 listing is no longer on http://www.hdradio.com, which seems to be the same page that http://www.ibiquity.com uses.

"It could be too that [Golden Hours'] source material is already data reduced."

Some of it is, in fact....programmes like Radio Entertainment Network (the old radio programmes like "Dragnet") come from medium bandwidth (circa 96kbps or so) Real-Audio internet feeds delivered via a broadband connection at OPB. Artefacting of some of their Internet audio is, in fact, also very noticeable in the SAP version.

(Haven't heard the IBAC Golden Hours yet, myself, but I intend to soon as I can make it to my friend's place, or Radio Shack...........)

I will post links to some of these feeds for comparison, as soon as I can find them! (Can't do it right now, I have an appointment to keep very shortly.)

"KRSK isn't going to do HD3 until further notice, and an HD3 listing is no longer on [HD Radio dot com] which seems to be the same page that [Ibiquity Dot Com] uses."

Could they possibly be realising that a third IBAC subchannel is narrowing the bandwidth too much to live up to its "improved sound quality" tagline, and possibly they might not be supporting it in the near future?

Stay tuned............

Generally speaking reproduced IBAC audio, in my opinion anyways from the audio I have heard, sounds like crap no matter how much the advertisers think it sounds "CD quality". Cassette quality, maybe, at best. Narrow the bandwidth enough, like adding a third, fourth, even 100th subchannel and it will only make it sound progressively worse..........

I'll second that.

Love the noise characteristics, don't love the lack of overall sonic accuracy.

It sounds like you have not actually listened to HD audio from a receiver. If that is the case, how can you make any call on audio quality? Depending on the bitrate and codec used to record and post these clips that you're referring to there is little representation of the reality of what HD audio sounds like.

I've had an HD radio in my vehicle since December 2005. The audio quality and reception is EXCELLENT. Even in a multi-path prone city like Portland. I find it difficult to endure the background hiss and static of analog FM, not to mention the narrowed bandwidth (15 khz) and distortion of pre-emphasis.

I agree that audio encoded at anything less than 32 kbps starts revealing way too many artifacts to listen for an extended period. We've been fighting this on the KEX HD signal for almost 2 years. I'm fairly happy with the audio quality on that feed as of the last week, but the volume level needs to come up a bit to blend well with the analog.

- "Love the noise characteristics, don't love the lack of overall sonic accuracy."
- "It sounds like you have not actually listened to HD audio from a receiver. If that is the case, how can you make any call on audio quality?"

Yes I have. In fact coupla hours ago I was listening to *both* an Accurian and a Boston Receptor at two Vancouver Radio Shacks. And both were listened not through the internal speakers but Sennheiser Hd-280 headphones (high-end DJ earphones.)

K103's secondary as well as KOPB's secondary (both music broadcasts), and to some degree first-channel IBAC sounded as though they were being played from a scratchy, worn-out phonograph records, most likely due to the low bandwidth used by Ibiquity's IBAC protocol and the fact that these stations were multicasting.

I actually heard Golden Hours running a broadcast of some lady talking about attractions in Hawai'i today at about 1:45, voice sounded very metallic, and at times had quite a bit of "pre-echo" on sharp sounds, like a sudden hard-pronounced letter "S". Granted, her voice is somewhat moderately-high to begin with, and I believe that property might have only made the artefacting worse.

Listening on my radio (channel 10 SAP) when I got back to the truck, through the same earphones connected to a mono-to-stereo adaptor, sounded crystal-clear despite the minor amounts of main-channel cross-talk that's typical of analogue FM subcarrier channels. (However, not even *nearly* as noisy as an SCA channel.)

Just pure field testing, basically. Going out and trying the receivers in the real world, tuning in and listening in a quiet environment (very well simulated by the headphones I was using) on high-quality speakers. That's how I make these calls!!

Unfortunately Chris, AM IBAC to FM IBAC is a somewhat unfair comparison due to AM's significantly lower overall bandwidth (around +- 32kbbs) than that of FM (+- 96kbps, on a good day.... ;o) A properly-processed FM IBAC with engineers paying very close attention to how it sounds, and using its full bandwidth (no secondary, third or 100th subchannels) can actually sound very good, certainly much better than some of the overly-procesed analogue FMs are putting out.

Real-world scenario: I had a chance to hear one such IBAC channel as this several months ago while on an impromptu spur-of-the-moment trip, WDAV (classical/NPR news) 89.9 in Charlotte, North Carolina (hello M--- W---!) on my Cousin's brand-new Sangean IBAC component tuner (he had just purchased it earlier that week) while visiting family after an uncle died, and I have to say that compared to many Portland IBAC stations I have heard I was impressed. Some very high-pitch tinny sound was apparent, especially in speech (such as during news) but could be cleared up easily with a slight adjustment of the stereo receiver's treble control.

Not 100% CD quality but was/is very high fidelity for an FM station.

So this technology *does* have potential to live up to its claims (almost--to be fully CD quality, in my opinion, also means it is fully exclusive of any and all codec artefacting), but sadly it seems very few people actually seem interested in *wanting* to make it live up to that potential.

Amazing tech but due to the way many commercial IBAC broadcasters want to seem to go with it, returns very modest results. That is definately no way to attract consumers to purchase or even express interest in a new technology.

(I think it is quite worthy of note WDAV is an indie, non-profit and volunteer-run station. It appears to me it staffs engineers who are more interested in making their content sound good than seeing how much profit they can turn, being noncommercial. I applaud them for this.)

Moto, most of what you describe (except for the HD3) are things that can be attributed to source material.

Any song file that was ever once anything other than .wav entered direct and not through ripping devices can produce artifacts that are not the fault of IBOC (unless it is 32kbps or under.)

nice observations that you make but come on back when you know fully what you are speaking of. till then you've got a few observations and a lot of opinions which seem to be gleened from the many anti IBOC Blogs.

Chris and Kent have experience and science to back up their observations.

The interested observer here would do good to listen to them before any skeptics with a preconceived (as in not scientificly validated) negative opinion.

I've heard a receiver.

I think the FM HD is quite listenable. The HD2 channels are as well, given they get a solid bitrate.

In general, I think the FM HD system is worth consideration, simply because of what could happen with the streams and some data capability.

The AM stuff, frankly even when it sounds good, is a waste of time. Not enough value add to justify the tradeoffs, receiver expense, etc...

(that could change, given some content efforts)

I was happy with analog quality nearly all the time. Guess what? I'm gonna be happy with the digital stuff a growing percentage of the time.

Result = I'm happy with radio quality nearly all the time.

Gain = ?!?!

I tune for content period. This and other evolutions in digital media pretty much takes quality off the table, unless I want to purchase actual physical media to be played on gear that can actually reproduce whats on there.

Today, radio has nothing whatsoever to do with that.

Sorry, but until there is some solid content changes, I'm happy with the radios I have and the quality difference I hear with HD is simply not worth the hassle.

It will pass or fail on the content basis alone. Whatever quality evolves out of that will be the minimum to make the majority of people happy enough to listen. Frankly, the better the content, to a degree the less overall quality demand will be necessary to compel listeners to continue listening.

This dynamic is in play on the Sat TV systems and Sat radio right now, coming to a radio near you.

Short version = nobody cares about quality, all about choice and content offerings.

So, any rough feelings anybody might have over how others are not so impressed at the HD quality are largely moot ok?

Forgot to add:

Put content on the HD streams, that is not easily obtained elsewhere, and I'll listen. Don't and I won't.

Had a bit more time...

That's really the core of it for me. I made my case on quality and nobody cares. Made the case on degrading existing radios. Turns out it's half and half on that one, but again nobody cares.

That means nobody really cares, doesn't it?

Which, in turn, leaves the content and the people that determine if a given radio is worth the time.

Edit:
The links I mentioned above earlier today--

NOTE: Contrary to belief these are NOT samples, but the actual audio streams such as relayed by Golden Hours.

I am posting these links here in order for others to compare source material (the Internet audio streams) to the IBAC and/or analogue SAP-Audio version.

Recommended player for these streams (and pretty much any other media file type, generally speaking Winamp/XMMS

Oregon School for the Blind Radio (plays at noon weekdays and sometimes at nights on SAP-64kbps streaming MP3, 22050Hz)~
http://peace.str3am.com:6520

Eugene Sounds/LILA (Usually broadcasta 10a-12p weekdays via SAP, 56kbps streaming MP3, 22050)~
http://peace.str3am.com:6480

"The Oregon Channel" (22050, 24kbps streaming MP3--somewhat tinny and metallic-sounding.)
http://war.str3am.com:8570

"The Stream", A Golden Hours music channel in stereo (Streaming MP3, presumably at least 20000Hz, 64kbps, stereo)~
http://peace.str3am.com:6470

Radio Entertainment Network (the old radio shows mostly carried on the weekends)~
Web site is at http://www.angelfire.com/or3/ren/renonlineindex.htm and appears to have a really nice list of RRSes internationally carrying its programming, but doesn't appear to have an Internet Audio Stream anywhere on its site, of its own programme. As soon as I can find one I will post it here................

SOURCE:
http://omnimedianetworks.org/listen.htm

--My soapboxings in response to Notalent's thing about scientific accuracy I appended the above to follows this line--

All I am stating is what I am hearing, on real equipment, in real time, through real earphones mounted upon real ears connected to a real brain.

Real-world product testing, basically. For real.

With possibly the sole exception of statements of Golden Hours occasionally carrying relays of Internet audio streams--such as those linked above--I don't even pretend to know what format the station's source material is in. Most of the time I don't know at all, unless they announce on air (like KINK used to do years ago claiming their format is all CDs) or if it's obvious like the announcements on Golden Hours that mention a "web radio information network" or other such like, for example.

I could assume it's a raw audio CD, a WAV or even a high-bandwidth MPEG3 (44100/320) but it is only an assumption, and one I likely can never admit valid certainty of.

None of my posts, on the IBAC subject anyways, are even in the least scientific and should not be construed as such, rather they are merely observations of a rather serious listener with audiophile tendencies, listening on at least high-end speakers/headphones, reporting what he is hearing.

Pretty much the same case as if I was to report that, say, "the 750cc two-stroke engine in the Honda bike I rode last Summer was a bit loud for me, but handled really well...and was a thrill to ride at high speeds." Merely my personal observations, opinions and reviews I share with others who might also be interested, or not, in purchasing.

I would be interested in purchasing an IBAC radio if only for observations/monitoring a bit closer to home than at a Radio Shack (not necesarilly fill-time listening, my 23-year old ears just still can't seem to filter out all the tinny artefacts!!) but it's just not in the budget right now. In the future, possibly, but not at the moment.

I don't know what the "anti-IBAC blogs" are, unless you refer to Radio Info which, effective 15 minutes ago I have officially given up on...............

Yes, I do agree scientifically-sourced responses/comments are good and in many cases necessary, but consumer point-of-view comments/replies should be valid as well and in many cases are/can be extremely helpful!!

Welcome back, Chris! I'm sure the vast majority of us have missed your insight.

moto dude, not trying to pick a fight with you.... but when you say things like:

"K103's secondary as well as KOPB's secondary (both music broadcasts), and to some degree first-channel IBAC sounded as though they were being played from a scratchy, worn-out phonograph records, most likely due to the low bandwidth used by Ibiquity's IBAC protocol and the fact that these stations were multicasting."

and here you try to tell the DIRECTOR OF ENGINEERING OF CLEAR CHANNEL PORTLAND the difference between AM and FM IBAC (sic):

" Unfortunately Chris, AM IBAC to FM IBAC is a somewhat unfair comparison due to AM's significantly lower overall bandwidth (around +- 32kbbs) than that of FM (+- 96kbps, on a good day.... ;o) A properly-processed FM IBAC with engineers paying very close attention to how it sounds, and using its full bandwidth (no secondary, third or 100th subchannels) can actually sound very good, certainly much better than some of the overly-procesed analogue FMs are putting out."

you are making comments that a casual listener would not make. you are injecting a level of authority as if your opinions were fact.

Use of the term IBAC is a prejorative that a casual listener giving a product review would never use either. It IS a derogatory technical term used by detractors of the tech.

While as you say you may be offering a mere listeners perspective you certain are couching yourself as more than a casual listener.

furthermore sennheiser dj headphones and both the BA and the Acuran HD receivers are not now or ever will be High Fidelity units. sorry for the dissapointment.

I'm just here pointing out the fact that your observations are very unsubstantial and lacking in experience and authority. thats all.

by the way the CD comparison is accurate. CD's are 44.1kHz 16 bit with audio out to 20kHz. So is HD... FM is not.

when most people hear the words "CD Quality" they do not think of numbers they think of clear sound that does not click skip and pop like LP's did or does not have multipath or amplitude impulse noise like FM and AM do.

A CD made of bad MP3 files sounds just as bad as a radio station with bad MP3 files whether it be IBOC or not. But it is STILL "CD QUALITY!!"

All right, I give up!! jeez........

*throws hands in air and walks off set*

"Are HD radios made with crappy tuners?"

http://www.hear2.com/2007/03/are_hd_radios_m.html

I just checked and the Ibiquity/hdradio.com site still lists KRSK's HD3. Perhaps, you skipped over it.

Yes Semoochie, I did miss it. I was looking down the frequency column for an HD3 and not the format column. I'll e-mail the powers-that-be.

By the way, I talked to John White today about 1330, 1640, and HD Radio.

It turns out that stations like 1330 that are "DA-1" (same directional pattern day and night) can keep HD on until 6 PM local time. They haven't been doing this, but probably won't change before they can just leave it on.

The holdup with 1640's HD is that per Radio Disney, they are waiting for the consulting engineers to specify changes to the 1640 matching networks and 1330 filters to widen the bandwidth of the system.

I asked them if they were going to do stereo at night on 1640, but to go HD on 1640 they will be installing a new exciter (first stage of the transmitter that changes the audio into radio frequency) and have to modify the switching frequency of the transmitter. It will no longer be able to do C-Quam AM Stereo after that. This also probably won't matter since by then they'll be HD all the time.

Finally, the project to go 10 kW directional at night on 1640 is on hold because it got a lot more complicated with HD.

Thanks for following through with that, Kent.

Notalent said: "Any song file that was ever once anything other than .wav entered direct and not through ripping devices can produce artifacts..."

How do ripping devices produce artifacts in .wav files?

There are many inferior ripping devices which do not produce accurate copies. Such inferior ripping devices are even used in some high priced broadcast mass storage systems (automation) and should be avoided.

one problem is high but error rates. there are other problems.

if such a ripping device were used to rip a cd to a .wav file then there would be error derived artifacts in the .wav file.

I agree with this, however it is perfectly possible to get a very solid file from your average computer, given extraction software that does error correction.

I've an SGI machine that plays CD audio digitally, with full error correction like high end CD players have, over the SCSI bus. This means it is capable of just writing that bit stream to disk. This is an error corrected audio stream that is the same as the audio stream written to the media, in the first place, for all but the most extreme cases where media is damaged to the point where software interpolation is necessary to recover audio.

I've done this, and have compared the audio files extracted on ordinary common computers. In the majority of cases, the errors are extremely minor.

There are some bad ripping programs out there, but there are also plenty of solid ones too.

It's not safe to say, ripping a file, introduces enough error to be significant, in terms of this discussion, as a blanket statement for a majority of cases. Some small amount of research can circumvent this problem.

Notalent,
Are we talking about "skips" and "pops"?

I don't know what Notalent is referring to, but I see waveform errors on some rips. I don't know why exactly.

When ripping 1:1 on the SGI, I get an exact audio out. When ripping 1:1 on my PC, on most drives, I get exact audio. On some, I get that audio, minus a few clicks and pops.

On higher speed rips, depending on the drive, I get different audio sometimes.

i'm just saying at least one certain high profile broadcast mass storage system uses a crappy ripper application. it causes a grainy coarse type grunge in the overall sound of the cut.

in this case cuts actually sound cleaner going into the analog inputs of a good sound card and use its A to D. Real time dub style.

an HD 2 at 48kbps should sound exactly the same as the HD 1 at 48kbps.

Remember that there are still THREE different evolutions of the transmission tech still in service... in other words we are on the third generation of encoder/exciter technology.

each station with an HD 2 uses their own type processing and media library for the HD-2.

Some of them bought commercially available format libraries of varying quality.

These are some of the many things that can make and HD2 (or HD-1 at the same bit rate) sound different or even worse than the host station or any other station or its HD-2 of the same bit rate.

HD-1 and HD-2 stations thus are all using their own combination of tech and source material.

nobody at this point make the case that listening to 2 HD2 stations on headphones plugged into two desk top receivers at radio shack means that HD2 inherantly sounds bad.

This tech is in its infancy. Engineers are still learning what works and what doesn't in every step of the audio and transmission chains. Flaws are being found in systems all the time and are also being corrected.

There are some VERY GOOD sounding HD stations. there are also some HD stations that reveal all of the flaws in the source material chosen or the flaws in the IT structure of the transmission chain which includes audio over TCP/IP in the case of all HD2 and the HD1's of the newest generation.

Many variables are at play and your milage may vary in this early stage of digital broadcasting.

This makes sense.

In other words, if you didn't personally manage how the audio gets into the system, it's likely to be suspect at this stage, thus making a bigger mess than would otherwise be the case, right?

The other day, I did a web search on the term "jitter," (not while looking for information on CD ripping programs) and I came upon an explanation for the poor sound quality of some ripping software.
If I understood the explanation correctly, a CD ripper reads data off the CD in chunks, rather than as a continuous stream. Because audio CDs were not meant to be read in this way, there is no "indexing" present in the data stream to tell the ripper where to resume reading once it has finished with a "block" of data. The ripper program therefore has to guess. This can lead to mechanically generated errors (jitter), particularly when the ripping is being done at high speed. The smarter ripping software that employs jitter correction analyzes the data at the beginning and end of each read in order to make it line up exactly with the next block of data.

Perhaps I don't know what to look for but I cannot tell the difference between HD at 48 and 96kbps. I can certainly tell the difference between HD and analog FM! At this point, I can see no advantage to not having an HD2 channel.

"Undie 100" (100.3 KKRZ-HD2) has some of the worst-sounding source material I've heard on HD Radio. Clear Channel needs to re-dub these songs, ASAP!

I think it's actually "Indie 100" but someone screwed up the text.

"Undie 100" is on MySpace: www.myspace.com/undie100

Some (many/most?) CD drives have hardware-based jitter correction.

I haven't listened to much HD since the early days of owning my JVC HD receiver, but I have noticed that stations with HD3 seem to have noticably less quality on their HD2(and perhaps HD1) stream.

Most HD2s seem to sound pretty decent though.

As far as content goes, I'd love to see some real live/local content on HD2, such as my former-roommate DJ Goaconstrictor's sweet KPSU show.

Why can't/won't one of the broadcasting monoliths make a deal to simulcast non-corp programming such as KPSU on their HD2? Probably because someday soon they will want to run commercials on HD2 as well? (Those who want to say it's because KPSU/college radio is shit can save it, I'd take poorly produced college radio over boring automation any day)

"Perhaps I don't know what to look for but I cannot tell the difference between HD at 48 and 96kbps."

After a while, you can definitely tell the difference. Listen carefully to the cymbals. At 48 kbps you'll often hear something of an unnatural swirling phasing sound. The attack of a hi-hat or a ride cymbal at 96 kbps sound much closer to how they sound on CD. At 48 kbps they'll sound flatter and more uneven, but they don't sound unpleasant.

I have a lot of jazz on CD and hear a lot of it played on KMHD and KIJZ's HD2. The stuff I hear on KMHD is certainly closer to the CD's. There's one Oscar Petersen song they play on KIJZ's Jazz Spot and the ride cymbal in it sounds like a sample from a cheap drum machine compared to how it sounds on CD. Now if I had never heard the original, I doubt I would have noticed.

A great cut to hear how 48 kbps falls apart is George Benson's "On Broadway". There is just too much stuff happening in the song for it to reproduce everything. Listen to how the clapping audience and some of the percussion "disappear" whenever a louder sound happens. I've never heard it in 96 kbps I don't know how much better it would do.

Again you do not know the source material quality of the KIJZ cut which is surely in Prophet as an MP2 file, probably purchased as part of a music library which may have been ripped into a computer for use on FM with only 15khz audio.

KMHD probably plays the song off of a CD direct to air.

that could be your difference. you really dont know how the 48kbps sounds unless you play the cut from the same source on both stations.

who is programming undie 100?

"Again you do not know the source material quality of the KIJZ cut which is surely in Prophet as an MP2 file, probably purchased as part of a music library which may have been ripped into a computer for use on FM with only 15khz audio."

That's very possible. All I can tell you is what's wrong with the things I hear on 48 kbps stations and that I don't hear these things on the few 96 kbps stations. Certainly the source material on KMHD and KBPS is superior to the stuff coming out of PC's at other stations.

Please do not take this personally, but how many of us on this board know for a fact that we can hear sounds in the 15-20 kHz range? For instance how many of you can hear the flyback whine of a TV (15.734 kHz)? I am only pointing this out because a lot of people (especially over 40) cannot hear these sounds, as the eardrums deteriorate and harden with age.

I'm pretty sure that I can hear to about 19.5 kHz, but the sensitivity is very poor. My cats, on the other hand, can beat me any day on hearing high frequency sounds.

I stopped to buy gas and mentioned to the attendant that I had an HD radio. He had not heard of it because he didn't have a radio! By the time I left, he was ready to buy one!

I'm waiting for a solid car unit, that's ~$100.

It will be interesting to see how the whole content issue evolves.

With the introduction of conditional access, I wonder if that isn't holding back receivers, or if that has already been condified into the existing firmware?

http://feedback.pdxradio.com/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=179797#POST179797

Good work, Semoochie ! Did you tell him about the adjacent-channel interference that HD/IBOC causes, and that it has only 60% the coverage of analog ? Also, did you tell him that HD1 is only a digital stream of the main analog channel, and that HD2 is just an underfunded, robotic, bland stream of repetitive programming ? Also, did you tell him that HD radios require AM-loop and external FM-dipole antennas, and that reception in vehicles is even more problematic ? Finally, I guess you didn't tell him that HD Radio is a defensive move to counter Satellite Radio and that it is a farce ? Good work, Semoochie !

http://feedback.pdxradio.com/show.cgi?tpc=5&post=179797#POST179797

Good work, Semoochie ! Did you tell him that HD/IBOC has only 60% the coverage of analog, that it causes adjacent-channel interference, that HD1 is just a digital stream of the main analog channel, that HD2 is just bland, repetitive, underfunded programming, that HD Radio is just a defensive move to counter Satellite Radio, that HD Radio reception in vehicles is even more problematic, and that HD/IBOC is a farce ? Good work, Semoochie !

I assume you're talking about AM. FM doesn't have any of these problems. Yesterday, I drove out US 30, listening to KRSK-HD2 all the way to Sauvie Island. I never lost the signal but just decided I should be getting back. Do you want to try that with analog? I was wrong about being behind a mountain breaking up reception. Apparently, more than one is necessary to do that. Note my previous comments about KNRK-HD extending out beyond 50dbu!

"Please do not take this personally, but how many of us on this board know for a fact that we can hear sounds in the 15-20 kHz range?"

A guy on the AVS Forum posted a file to test our hearing. 15 Khz came in loud and clear. I could hear 16 Khz as a tone but 17 Khz had a strange effect of reducing ambient sounds. I could tell there was a sound but I couldn't perceive it as a tone. I couldn't detect anything above that.

I discovered one MP3 player would not play sine waves over 15 Khz!

I'm a 40 year old male and have worked hard to ruin my hearing. I also listen to the bland underfunded repetitive robotic HD2 stations and I have yet to hear a single Bob Marley song on any of them!

Pocketradio, How did you come up with that 60% figure? On my trip to Canada last weekend I was listening to KZOK Seattle and I had a solid HD2 lock with zero dropouts from south of Olympia.

HD1 is "just" a digital stream of the main channel... so? Your point is what? Analog was good enough for my pappy so it should be good enough for me? Digital is somehow inferior?

HD2 is just bland, repetitive, underfunded programming... and how is that different from the HD1 or analog program?? The only difference I see is greater variety (and even if it's the exact same playlist as HD1, being able to flip to HD2 when HD1 is playing something I don't want to hear and hear a different track than is plahing on HD1 is "greater variety" in my book) and *fewer/zero commercials*(for now anyway). Both of those are advantages IMO.

I noticed today that KOPB FM has an HD3 stream now, but the volume is nearly inaudible!

It sounded louder earlier. Maybe, someone bumped the knob.

Motozak,

the correct answer is not to "throw your hands up in the air and leave the room"

No, the correct answer would be to say "OK, I'll listen to more tuners in more environments for a longer period of time before making a blanket judgement of the quality of an entire broadcast medium."

Another thing to consider is "core mode" this is a default "robust" mode used in IBOC receivers. In the fringe areas of coverage (or when the receiver has low signal levels for other reasons such as a bad antenna or being in a metal/concret building.)

core mode is even lower bitrate but supposed to be more robust. you can tell you are in core mode usually by the lack of a stereo indicator while in HD mode. (this applies to the kenwood car tuners. not sure of the indication in a Boston or Polk desk top model.

Core mode has a lot of artifacts and sounds like crap...

could be that the already deaf (low sensitivity) boston and accuran desk top units at radio shack had just such a weak reception condition putting them in core mode.

as I said before do not be so quick to judge the quality of the medium until you have lived with it for a while and fully determined if what you are hearing is consitent across all tuners in all conditions on all similar bit rate stations.

Missing KSKD... I dont think there is such a thing as a solid car unit for around $100, analog or digital!!! you are asking for a piece of feces at that price point.

the JVC car stereo can be had for $200. the Sangean HDT-1 component style tuner is also $199 and a VERY GOOD radio for in home use.

Pocketradio is an example of how stirred up some people can become by listening to one sided diatribes with no basis in reality. has Pocket radio actually listend to HD radio to verify the things he is repeating here? NO!! Obviously not.

That 60% reference is pure Bull detritis. Probably garnered from the Khan website. anybody listening to an actual HD radio would know better.

Nothing pocketradio says on here should be taken for fact based on his/her obvious lack of fact checking before cutting and pasting URL's here.

I also heard the KOPB HD3 and it is indeed inaudable! again, not the fault of the tech. just the technicians.

My JVC only displays the stereo beacon when in multiplex. As soon as HD kicks in, it is gone!

Agreed.

I'll likely just wait for a while.

I got my JVC for far less than $200, under $150 after rebate IIRC. I imagine it will be close to $100 after rebate by the end of the year.

I'll 2nd the lack of ST light when in HD. I haven't noticed anything indicating core mode(lights or by sound).

All Access reports: Best Buy will feature HD Radios in all its stores and you'll be hearing about it on the radio as HD Digital Radio Alliance members air messages about the new "wide" availability.

Best Buy VP/Merchandising, Chris Homister said "Product is now available in all of our stores."

Bummer...

(Not about the radios, but the retailer.)

Bummer?

Yeah, I'm not a big Best Buy fan. It's all good otherwise though!

"Bridge Ratings: Sweat the cell phone and don't count on HD"

"In other words, Bridge says interest in HD radio is decreasing even as your station works hard to increase awareness. What can I possibly add to this honest and bleak picture that I haven't said before? My well-intended warnings about HD's "premature death" seem to be rearing their ugly heads almost two years later."

http://www.hear2.com/2007/04/bridge_ratings_.html#comments

Consumers will ignore HD Radio at Best Buy, just like they have done at Amazon, Circuit City, Radio Shack, Crutchfield, Radiosophy, Wal-Mart, etc. HD Radio is a farce that never got off the ground.

Radio Shack was overwhelmed by the sales of and interest in the accuran HD radio when the put it on sale the day after thanksgiving 2006.

but hey that would be letting facts get in the way of your rant.

HD Radio is a farce that never got off the ground? This guy is living in a fantasy world.

I put together a web page with pictures and links about the current crop of HD Radios at
http://www.sbe124.org/HD_Radios/

Thanks Kent!

102.7 KSTJ is the best sounding HD station in Las Vegas.

Interesting line up!

Did you get to check out the sound on the Cambridge one? I've got some computer speakers, produced by them, that are just amazing. Heavy too...

I'm liking the Directed unit. Cool, old school, lettering and design. Might be a few too many button presses to get it to do stuff, but it looks good at first glance.

How come these manufacturers are not getting more creative with their displays? I know the standard backlit LCD is cheap and long life, but there are a lot of options to explore. Perhaps in the next gen...

Did you get any info on the conditional access feature? Specifically, will these radios being produced now be capable of licensing, or will just miss out? Just wondering how that's all going to shake down, or if that tech will be dedicated to commercial business to business markets, with their own radios.

Didn't get to crank the Cambridge Soundworks HD Radio, but I assume it sounds as good as the analog model of which we have several at Entercom (with the excellent RDS display).

They said existing radios will just ignore the conditional access channels.

Thanks!

I haven't looked through the entire map on Ibiquity's site for a long time. The last time was before HD2s came on the scene. I just checked and the only state without any HD is North Dakota but even they have signed up! I was surprised to find that Wyoming has 3 HD3 channels and 2 of them are in Sheridan! I was also surprised to find several HD3s running actual music formats so I have to wonder if the station is sacrificing the quality of its HD2 to improve the quality of the HD3.

They are probably running 48/24/24 kbps rather than 48/32/16 as some do with speech on HD3.

Won't these bitrates come up with the approval of the extended hybrid mode?

Anyone have a 16Kbps sample to share?

That was my hope. That reminds me: KHPE is no longer Happy. It's now called Hope.

Maybe they are hoping to be happy again someday.

I wonder when they changed and what took so long.

It was a few years ago...and a much needed improvement.

Thanks! Does anyone have a thought about K103's main HD channel? It doesn't "pop" like the rest of them! It's too much like listening to the analog signal. Z100 and KIJZ don't do that. Their HD2 is fine.

new HD station this weekend KNBQ 102.9 Centralia just fired up the equipment. No PAD as of yet and the analog delay has not been set but the sound quality is great on a par with KMNT 104.3 which had been HD for quite some time now

In this month's Water Cooled Newsletter: Talk of a power increase for HD Radio and HD2 for AM!

Yes, check it out at http://www.sbe124.org/newsletters/pdx0507/

Repeating rumors I heard at NAB.

We also now know that 91.5 KOPB-FM's HD3 is at 15 kbps.

Does anybody know what the status of KDZR starting AM HD? Last I heard it was supposed to switch in March, but March and April went by with no change.

During Christmas last year, KEX sounded awesome in HD (wonderful stereo separation), so I can't wait to hear KDZR in HD.

Is AM HD good stereo sound? I'm a bit confused,as I'm not a radio pro ,and I heard on this board that the Radio Shack Accurian had the original type of AM stereo on them or something....

They were saying that the Accurian also happens to decode regular analog AM stereo. AM HD is certainly stereo. The former is really a moot point in that the system will no longer be authorized.

"good" is a relative term. AM HD certainly sounds better than AM without HD! But you can definitely hear the brassy high freq compression artifacts. IMHO brassy artifacted highs are better than no highs at all!

I'm holding off on an opinion of AM HD until I hear music on a station that is interested in the quality of its signal. KEX isn't too bad but there really isn't enough music to tell for sure. The voices have too much sibilance but it's probably because the mikes they use are intended to sound acceptable on average AM receivers. KKPZ doesn't sound very good in analog or digital. At this point, I'm waiting for Radio Disney before I can make an informed decision.

While 1190 KEX was playing Christmas music, they sounded pretty good.

I agree could not get the stereo though I did not know that KEX was in stereo through HD until I listened to them in Portland last weekend cannot get the HD reliably up here because of the low power and the occasional electrical interference even slight levels is enough to wipe out the HD

Wow, I'm suprised you were able to get any HD lock at all in Toledo! When I drive down to Salem, the KEX HD lock drops off about 2-3 miles north of town.

I am using an Accurian HD receiver with a Radioshack tuned loop. That brings the KEX HD signal in at about 3 out of 8 bars on the signal strength display

From Radio magazine:

"Samsung Developing HD Radio Chipset
Columbia, MD - May 9, 2007 - Samsung Electro Mechanics plans to introduce a new chipset for use in portable and home HD Radio receivers. Samsung, already an Ibiquity Digital IC development partner, expects samples of the chipset will be available before the end of the 2007 with production anticipated for the first quarter of 2008.

Designed to be a low-power, high-performance chip, it will be capable of supporting all current and planned HD Radio technology features. It is being designed and manufactured using advanced technology and features a system-in-package (SIP) module and a CMOS, mixed-signal single-chip tuner. Target HD Radio applications include mobile phones, portable media players, portable navigation devices, table radios and home audio-video components."

> They were saying that the Accurian also happens to
> decode regular analog AM stereo. AM HD is certainly
> stereo. The former is really a moot point in that
> the system will no longer be authorized.

When is the analog AM stereo sunset date (i.e. the system no longer being authorized)?

no sunset date has been set for analog AM and FM that I know of

What about analog AM Stereo?

again for AM stereo no sunset date has been set

I'm thinking it's in the Report and Order. If that's the case, I'll say 30 days after being published in the Federal Register. There is no sunset planned for analog radio broadcasting, per se.

I spent the evening driving around Salem with a friend who has the Kenwood HD tuner. The HD2 streams kept cutting out, which would be quite annoying to the average radio listener.

the kenwood tuner needs its black box grounded to the cars chassis. if this is not done reception will suffer greatly.

KNRK HD2 has changed format to All Northwest Artists. This should make some detractors very happy, not to mention all those who feel that local music doesn't get enough support from radio. The latter argument, I've been hearing for decades! Thanks to Kent Randles for the "heads up".

My in-laws absolutely love 99.5 HD2 "The Delta" Blues. One of my favorites is 105.1 HD2, which is Dance AC. Hopefully, Entercom will keep these formats on the air!

I'm gonna buy an HD radio for that.

(sends happy fun e-mail to Hamilton)

That's exactly the kind of innovation I was hoping might begin to happen.

Sweet!

The PAD data on KNRK-2 is really useful, so far, I have seen indications of bands from Portland, Seattle and Boise, along with titles.
It would be a great feature if a future model HD tuner would be able to export the PAD data to a digital recording device.
KNRK-2 has been added to my preset list.

According to the Ibiquity site, KRSK HD2 will be switching to Comedy.

Oh well.

I'll just wait then.

A lot of musicians tell me that corporate rock is making it impossible to get anything on the radio. That may be true but it's nice that KNRK is doing something to let me hear local artists.

This is the most clever and original format I've heard for an HD2 station so far, and this is the best use of PAD data (which someone had to enter!) I've seen.

I'm probably going to listen to this a lot since the Reedies have pretty much abandoned KRRC.

Re: KRSK HD2 -- Will the Comedy programming here be anything like the syndicated All Comedy Radio programming that was on 970 when it first became KCMD? Does this have any chance of being succesful?

Re: KRRC -- A few Fridays ago, I was hearing rap music on 97.9 that featured some pretty crude chauvinist lyrics (i.e. in the "I like to fuck my bitch" category). At first, I thought that this was a pirate, until I followed the signal to the Reed campus. It is sad and disturbing that today's young people consider this to be a proper way to express themselves in a public venue. What do the young women amongst them think of being referred to as "bitches" to be "fucked?"

The Ibiquity site has been known to be wrong when it comes to formatic details.

Missing, you should check with someone at Entercom to get the real story.

I'm seriously interested in a regional format, like this one. Will do.

The site used to list the current format. Now, it mentions Comedy as "coming soon". Another posibility is that they intended to list it as a future HD3 channel and inadvertently omitted the Dance format.

105.1 has one of the best HD2 formats in Portland! They need to keep the Dance AC format on the air, if they want to sell more HD Radios.

If Entercom really wants to try Comedy, it should go on HD3.

100.3 HD2 should change to "Pride Radio" (Dance Hits/Gay Pride)...which would complement Z100.

If it isn't a misprint, it could be because KVMX HD2 is set to go with 80s Dance.

"Re: KRRC -- A few Fridays ago, I was hearing rap music on 97.9 that featured some pretty crude chauvinist lyrics (i.e. in the "I like to fuck my bitch" category)."

Come on, this is Reed College, man. They play nasty rap in the hope that someone like you will hear it and become annoyed. They don't take it seriously like you or the FCC do. Now that every person under fifty grew up with rock and roll, they have to find really offensive music to get attention.

> Now that every person under fifty grew up with
> rock and roll, they have to find really offensive
> music to get attention.

I guess they do...Those little bastards!

I recently had my ears cleaned out and noticed that K103 now has the "pop" I spoke of earlier. I think they fixed the problem and the timing was just a coincidence. I also see that both KMHD and KBOO don't delay the analog signal so it meshes with HD. This is a problem that needs to be addressed before very many people have HD receivers. It could even be put into law! Hopefully, someone from both stations will see this post and set the wheels in motion. All the other stations seem to be fine.

It's a requirement of the HD Radio licensing from Ibiquity that the analog and HD1 be in sync.

Thanks Kent! It looks like I'm on the right track. Neither of those stations have any discernable analog delay at all! Do you suppose someone accidentally hit an off switch at both stations? It's bad enough when you first tune in but can you imagine being on the edge of the digital signal and have it switch back and forth while out of sync by several seconds?

New BMW's are now shipping with HD radios in them. There will soon be a whole group of HD radio listeners who aren't really even aware of it.

I bet they will be in the service department wondering why their radios are "skipping' forward and backward in time!!

That's a biggie.

These kinds of things are what just hammered AM bandwidth. People heard stuff that was not the program material and complained about defective radios...

This feels like a similar thing. And many BMW drivers are the, "I don't want to hear about it, just fix it!" types.

Clearly, stations should have this nailed down. Ibiquity is right in mandating that in their license terms.

Semoochie, thanks for the comments about K103. I had initially thought it was just me hearing the muffled audio. After further investigation I found that the audio processor was set to sync its output sample rate to the input rate. The Ibiquity codec requires a 44.1 kHz sample rate, and our STL is 48 kHz. After I set the output of the processor to an internally clocked 44.1 there was quite an improvement in audio.

I suppose the next step would be to take a clock sample from the Exporter into the clock input on the processor and sync to EXACTLY the same clock. If only there were enough time.

A few weeks ago, one of the rentals cars we used at work had the dash radio with a HD Radio Tuner in it. I liked how the audio was a wee bit more crisp than usual, but I was surprised to see not many data features.

I'm glad I could be of help, Chris. It really sounds much better. I've noticed most of the main channels don't sound as good as the HD2s. I don't know if that's the way it has to be or just a matter of early experimentation.

Chris, if you see this, the delay on KIJZ is about 1 beat off, maybe an eighth of a second. This is a new situation that wasn't there yesterday. Perhaps, someone bumped a knob.

Looks like HD-2s on KKRZ and KKCW are missing... computer crash?
I also hear a slight echo as KIJZ switches to HD.

KIJZ time alignment had slipped by 85 msec. KKRZ HD2 and KKCW HD2 are back online. We just had a major change of the Importer software that appears to be a bit unstable.

Main channel HD audio quality is more of a challenge due to the number of devices it passes through. The HD2 signals come out of a soundcard as AES audio, pass through a processor, then back into the Ibiquity Importer. The biggest challenge in audio quality on these signals is the source material dubs.

All three problems just got fixed...Thank You!

Thank you for answering my question and I'm glad to see everything is back to normal.

"Undie 100" has a ton of bad source material in rotation.

Agreed. I've been told that the initial "format" was ripped in as mp2 from mp3. Running an audio spectrum analyzer on random audio cuts in the library shows a low pass filter around 12 kHz! It is probably the worst audio we have in our local library. In contrast, a large portion of the KKRZ and KKCW libraries are re-dubbed locally as PCM by Matt Jones.

Could the "Undie 100" music library be re-dubbed? Or, better yet, how about flipping 100.3 HD2 to Pride Radio?

I agree with you, Radioxpert, about the audio quality on Undie. Believe me, there is nothing I would like to do more than correct all audio on all formats coming out of our facility. Sadly, we do not get service from Independant labels (or, at least, not much service) because Undie 100 is not a primary format. So I have no choice but to accept the digital files that are sent here, regardless of quality.

I am fairly pleased with the audio files on K103, Z100 and Smooth Jazz 105.9. Nearly two-thirds of these files have been corrected, and the analog and HD quality is really good. I know (xpert) that you're not a fan of Z100's up-pitch. All I can say is that the audio is dubbed in at normal speed. It is a station by station decision whether to alter pitch or not. This is accomplished by the individual station's audio server, and not at the source file.

Surely there is some geek somewhere willing to transcode some audio for you. Give 'em a play list and an attaboy or station tour or something, and it's all good in a coupla weeks right?

That's not nice to call computer technicians "Geeks"! It is these geeks that make that little globe on IE go round and round ya know! One day when your doing a show or something you voice may wind up sounding like Donald Duck on Helium! And if not doing a show then your bank account might wind up empty or something! You might even start getting calls and emails from your "Myspace" listing that you did not even know you had! LOL

Hey, Geek is a badge of honor I wear with pride!

We really do make the world go around and a surprising number of people have no idea. Same for a lot of engineers. --too bad we don't make many things here any more, but that's for the other side, I guess.

One particularly great thing about your typical geek, is they will often do something because it is worth doing, would save time, benefits them, gets some attention, etc.. This whole ethic powers free software and is not something to make fun of.

It's also exactly why I suggested it. Somebody with a net connection, a good machine and a little time, who thinks radio is cool, would gladly contribute, given the chance.

Hmmm, wish I had some time because this is a gap to be filled and a great way to get into the Indie scene. Offer transcoding services, tuned for radio, make your contacts and leverage that in some fashion. Might be a winner.

Have a look at this:
http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.html?/sysadmin/~content
A great song and a funny website!

105.1 KRSK's HD2 has changed format to "All Comedy Radio."

Still with no commercials?

That's worth checking out. The AM effort had way too many spots. Too tough to differentiate the content from the ADs.

As always Kent, thanks for the update! On a personal level, I'm a little sorry to hear that because I liked the Disco and some of the 80s the station was playing but it may be covered on one of the CBS stations. On the other hand, I always push for more variety on the radio dial.

Any update or news on flipping 1640 KDZR to AM-HD? I thought that it was supposed to happen back in March...

Just a couple of things: The FCC website lists KAST 1370 Astoria as an HD station. This is not on the Ibiquity site. Not to complain or anything but I notice the feed on the comedy programming that KRSK's HD2 is running, is awfully noisy! When it drops out, there's absolute silence but the feed, itself is noisy. I think its the same one that KCMD had.

"105.1 KRSK's HD2 has changed format to All Comedy Radio."

What a complete waste of a 48kbps HD2! The Comedy format should be only be used for a lower bit-rate HD3. 105.1 KRSK's HD2 "Dance AC" was the reason I wanted to buy an HD Radio for the car. Now, I'm going to save the $200.

Several weeks ago, 94.7 KNRK's HD2 switched from "Deep Tracks" to playing just music from Northwest bands: those who call home the cities from Ashland, OR to Vancouver, BC.

I took another trip south to see where the HD signals would take me. The last time, I thought I might have turned around too early. This time, after losing everything, I decided to turn around in Albany but before leaving, I stopped to scan the dial. While I was sitting there, only one station decoded to HD and that was KWJJ! You would expect almost anything else with a local 100kwer on 99.9 but there it was, clear as day! The other big stations just missed, making me think that a roof antenna might just do the trick from that location for the other stations. I noticed something else during my trip: The lack of first adjacent IBOC interference as previously claimed! In an area where I was able to decode KBPS and KNRK, I had clear to normal first adjacent reception of 89.7 and 94.5! There may have been SOME first adjacent noise but not any worse than a non-HD signal like 93.1 and 93.3. In fact, there was more interference on 93.1 from what must have been a translator on 92.9. I was barely able to hear KZEL at all. They must have been running fairly low power for some reason. KWAX didn't decode in Albany but started to come through in Salem, just before fighting it out with a co-channel translator. This apparent total lack of first adjacent interference beyond what is normal in analog, seems to change everything! It's about the only thing that detractors of the FM system have against it that has any technical bearing at all. This is even more of a non-issue than I thought. There's no added interference among light fringe stations. That only leaves a situation where one or more of the signals is very strong and how many stations can be in that predicament without some original analog interference?

After KZEL swithcd on its HD signal, none of our listeners (including myself) has detected any interference at all to our McMinnville LPFM on 96.3 from it. It hasn't even affected the reach of our RBDS subcarrier. (even in the 'fringe' areas 20 kilometres to the southwest where our signal is only around 35-45 dBu)

I just got one of the JVC HD radios installed in my vehicle, not too bad of a radio for the price. ($160US after rebate) The quality of the reception was better than I expected since my car has one of those crappy "in window" antennas. The JVC blew the "premium" stock stereo away. (the OEM stock radio's FM reception was about the worst I've ever heard in all but the worst cheapo flea market, JCWhitney type $19 specials. I had a Sparkomatic cassette deck in the 80's that had a better tuner in it.)

The only thing missing in the JVC (you can't have everything!) is RDS/RBDS decoding and display. That would be handy when the signal shifts from HD back to analogue.(providing the station utilizes RBDS.)

Install a real car antenna immediately! The only reason to even consider having one of those is if it's part of a diversity tuning system.

And be sure that the chassis of the HD tuner is well grounded to bare metal on the car.

Good grounding seems to be very important to these tuners.

Maybe it was very important all along but with the power of the HD signals 20db lower than analog, it seems more important for those with an HD radio.

This seems like a lot of work to pick up HD radio. Will normal people go to that much effort?

It works well enough for my taste right now...(I don't really want to get holes drilled in my nice XG300 at this time! Now my '87 Mitsubishi, however, is fair game and has at least 10-15 holes in it already for various and sundry antennas and mounting brackets.)

I do have to say that the installer at Fry's did a very good, clean job of putting the radio in.

Grounding the tuner in a car stereo installation will improve the FM as well as the HD, it will also improve AM reception and can reduce ignition induced impulse noises.

Its a good idea for every car tuner, not just HD tuners.

It particularly helps HD tuners because the HD signal has so much LESS power than the analog stations.

If you never leave downtown portland with your car then it probably would not matter, except for AM reception.

I don't think the HD signal is the problem. I think it's having enough analog signal to lock on to.

The HD tuner does not require an analog signal to lock to the digital signal. I've seen a case where the analog carrier was off, but the radio still detected, and decoded, the digital signal.

Grounding of all car receivers is important for both analog and digital reception. Manufacturers and installers have just continued to slide on this detail since a majority of listeners tune in where signal strength is VERY high. This falls into the category with noisy alternators, spark plugs, and overly narrow-band AM receivers.

The 2nd Report and Order which allows for AM stations to broadcast at night(among other things)with HD has finally been printed in the Federal Register! Expect to hear stations take advantage of their new found freedom on or after September 14.

Here's a story in the 8-15-07 Oregonian on HD radio.

http://www.oregonlive.com/living/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/living/11871429082156 40.xml&coll=7

Is chassis grounding relevant if the black/ground wire is connected properly(not to mention the antenna shield, which is also bonded to the chassis)? IIRC the stereo mount in my VW is plastic...

While connecting the black/ground and antenna shield wires are necessary for the most basic operation(duh), a good solid chassis ground to the vehicle's frame will improve reception quality a bit, especially on AM.(A good chassis ground is absolutely required for a good two way radio installation especially a CB radio or an HF amateur rig. Some mobile ham operators on HF use many square feet of copper strapping and multiple braided cables to ground their equipment their vehicle's chassis. Very necessary if you are running 500-750 watts of RF power out of your automobile, like some hams do.)

The HD reception in my XG300 is quite acceptable even with just a rear window antenna. On one of my return trips from the Eugene area I was able to solidly hear KWAX's HD signal all the way to the Enchanted Forest exit. I haven't torn into the dash myself to see how well the HD radio is grounded...I don't have the car radio installation tools for this car and I have better things to do with my time, like hiking, watching BC Lions football, taking my niece and nephew to BAW wrestling, and going to the Gordon Lightfoot show.(I am a NERD--not a geek!)

nighttime AM HD? that could mean disaster the digital signals could cause destructive interference to analog reception and the digital receivers will not be able to lock onto the signals coming in through skywave. But I guess this is one of those wait and see what happens things but this is just my prediction considering what I observed with distant HD reception during the daytime hours.

i was thinking the adjacent channel analog statons would be causing disaterous reception condtions to the HD stations. They have much more power.

According to WOR's CE, there shouldn't be a problem inside of a station's protected coverage area.

I realize that but I am thinking of outside a station's city of license for night time operation and even during the day in some cases where I am KLAY 1180 from Lakewood WA appears along with the lower HD sideband from KEX 1190 this causes problems with both the analog station and with getting the digital signal from KEX.

I am hoping for the best in this whole nighttime AM HD IBOC thing, but I'm expecting the worst.

Well, WOR is where the problems are gonna manifest first. If they get it right, then we've got fewer problems here, on this coast, in general.

Either way, this is the vetting time. Either things will work well, with however many adjustments are necessary for that, or they won't.

Solid decisions about AM IBOC will come from that whole affair. There are a lot of options on the table, for everybody to get along. This will force that discussion. No matter what tech we employ, night time AM is additive, meaning they've all gotta play nice somehow.

I'm eager to see that resolve. However it resolves really does not matter, just that it does. We then can set solid AM expectations and see forward progress.

BTW: I've heard some WOR IBOC audio. Tom's done a stellar job! He's not only a big AM IBOC proponent, but clearly is willing to do what it takes to see his tech implementations through.

This months RW Engineering issue has a big story on the WOR studio move too. Good read.

Just re-read this long and interesting thread this morning. An idea popped in my head.

For the timing issue, which appears to manifest on occasion (likely to be simple computer matters), why not include a brief tone every hour or half hour? Just 200ms @ 1Khz, with 100ms of dead air on either side. Nobody would care. A very high percentage would miss it completely, nearly all the time.

A timing computer (or the same computer doing encoding) could listen for this tone on two channels and sync to it. Pretty easy to calculate the delta and insert a few repeated samples, over the course of a few seconds to catch back up.

Another alternative would be brief dead air insertions between other program elements. Make 'em small and nobody would notice, particularly done between spots.

That would handle errors of less than one second in an automatic fashion. Gross errors would be flagged and tagged, paging the tech / engineer to intervene manually, while the computer begins a slow crawl back to sync in case said person is too busy with other matters.

The computers used for these things are not deterministic. Some investment into a self-correcting system like this makes sense on that basis alone.

a self correcting system for the HD Radio delay would make sense considering how important it is I have heard some stations that did not have the delay set correctly KBOO 90.7 was that way for a while but it sounds like the delay has been dialed in for them and the other stations with this problem. It is annoying to hear the analog not sync up with the digital when HD Radio receivers blend to digital after the signal is of sufficient strength.

A side comment pertinent to this, that (I feel anyways) might be worth mentioning (although in the long run I doubt it given my previous track record/s around here)--

This morning while listening to "Oregon Today" on Golden Hours, Jerry Delaunay apparently had a (pre-recorded?) announcement telling how to listen to GH. Among those he listed-Internet, SAP channel--stated that it can be listened to on and I quote, "the High-Definition radio channel of KOPB 91.5 FM."

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Mistake someplace?? There ain't no bloody high-definition radio! Ibiquity has even stated that themselves!! "Hybrid Digital" perhaps, but.......

Unless you count the secondary audio feed on digital TV channel 10/02, which does carry Golden Hours programming but it tends to be rather spotty at times.

In any case I think I may have lost faith in Omni........

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I have heard Golden Hours on KOPB sounds like an overly compressed internet radio stream unlike the other 2 HD channels

Theoretically the HD encoders and exciters use GPS clock signals to keep themselves aligned.

The HD2 (and 3) audio uses UDP over STL network extentions to get from the encoder at the studio to the exciter at the transmitter site.

lets just say that whoever wrote the code missed a few critical application points.

I remember reading about HD exciters being synchronized by GPS if so there might be a way to transmit the clock information to HD receivers just like what is done with RDS. With KOPB only the HD-3 suffers from any problems must be the low bit-rate and also the audio level is lower than the other HD streams.

I'm not sure the GPS clock will address the entire problem.

There are at least two paths, each with a non-deterministic buffer arrangement.

Additionally, the UDP means of transfer does experience the occasional lost packet. (IMHO, that's not a bad feature, but one that does require sync systems outside that means of data transport.)

Issues between the analog buffer and the HD path, are not well addressed by the GPS clock. Said clock does make sure the two HD systems perform in sync, given it's robust. I see that as being an application issue clearly. Let's just say it works.

What happens when the analog buffer has a problem? In particular, let's say the HD stream needs to be synced across the STL. Does the analog path get the same treatment? If so, how is the time base established from a unknown problem state?

(lost packet, OS application / driver transfer issue, failure to queue audio source, overall OS network stack latency, etc...? All of these lead to an unknown number of sample differences between the analog stream and the HD one mirroring it.

That is what I was getting at with the tone bit.

Of course, the computers could maintain time sync with one another. That, combined with sync markers in the stream would likely address the issue as well. Now that I think about it. Doing that would render the GPS clock unnecessary, given the computers reference a common time base.

Is network availability at the TX end a primary reason for not doing this?

If so, comparing the as broadcast streams still has some merit.

Greater minds than ours are still working on this!

There is a sync marker in the UDP stream. its contained in a 1.5 meg data burst which also includes the audio packets. lost packets cause time alignment drift issues.

Oddly no scheme was devised in the Ibiquity code to actually compare the analog audio to the digital and self align.

So yes it is up to each indivicual station (engineer) to keep their analog signal aligned with the digital. This can be frustrating if the STL is not up to the demands of the data pipe it is carrying. hence some frequently non aligned stations.

There are aftermarket specialty receivers ($7000) that can compare the two and tell you the difference down to 5 places after the decimal point. very handy for manual alignment but it would be nice if it could be incorporated into the code itself.

In otherwords nobody thought of that when the time was right. maybe in a future version.

If it were me, I would incorporate the analog stream into the HD STL. That does mean it's no longer strictly analog. I don't think a very high percentage of people will care.

And there are plenty of lossless formats to carry said stream along with the lossy HD stuff.

Bandwidth requirements will increase, but they are gonna increase anyway. Why fight it? Bandwidth always gets cheaper.

Both as broadcast streams then could be corrected, pre-STL.

That's also the right move for all digital TX.

When / if all digital happens, analog gear necessary for this is programatically taken off line. Also, the bandwidth is then there, running and proven for the more demanding digital streams.

Should the need arise, the analog stuff could be utilized with few hassles, post digital time frame.

Most STL's are already digital.

Its quite a bit more complex being that this is all "closed code" proprietary Ibiquity stuff.

the correcting of time alignment is currently done "pre STL"

Well, I don't feel sorry for them. Greater minds or no, doing this stuff closed will place a higher longer term cost burden on the industry overall. This is one manifestation of that.

Had it been open, these discussions would be moot. One could read the standard, write some code and offer a product. This issue would be nailed cold right now.

Pre-stl... If said time correction happens, how then do the streams get misaligned then?

Answer: One is closed up, might be changed, is fed in batched fashion. Other one is not, and fed in either batch or real time fashion. The key here is they are not really linked in a deterministic way.

No way to reconcile the two, without a monitor, or by just closing both streams, thus making them visible to the black box. Doing that would make a deterministic link possible, BTW.

In the end, either it matters or it doesn't; therefore, it will either be worth fixing or it won't.

Was just musing about sync and tech, passing along some thoughts.

Will be fun to see how it gets solved.

I think that there may also be another issue here... analog delay can be set so that the switching between analog and HD in a HD receiver is flawless, but a then a definite "echo" will be heard between an analog and a HD receiver in the same room (since the DSP in HD receivers introduces a small delay even to the analog signal). So do you set the delay for best switching of a HD radio or for minimum "echo" between mixed analog and HD radios in close proximity ?

KD7~

"I have heard Golden Hours on KOPB sounds like an overly compressed internet radio stream unlike the other 2 HD channels"

It's probably because quite a bit of the programming on GH comes off of overly compressed Internet radio streams!!

When you say you heard it on KOPB, are you talking about via the SAP channel (on television, either analogue or 10/2) or via 91.5's IBAC channels? Sometimes the companding used by the DBX noise-reduction system in some TV sets and VCRs will distort the audio signal somewhat, giving the sound a sort-of "muffled" or "pumping" effect.

I was listening on KOPB 91.5 HD-3 KOPB 10 is not on cable TV out where I am

In that case--this is merely a wild guess (PLEASE don't get the wrong idea, Notalent)--OPB may be limiting its bandwidth alotted to 91.5's third IBAC channel, being as how the majority of Golden Hours' programming is speech-oriented (although quite a bit of music *does* get played) and speech doesn't require as much bandwidth to transmit as music does. Ergo, more bandwidth is allotted to its secondary channel which is primarily music programming (from what I understand.)

Wild guess, but it makes sense, I think.

And I have heard GH on three different IBAC receivers thus far (because that's all I have had access to.) Even on the Sangean I tried recently it sounded very watery and compressed. Heck, DBX aside, gimmee the SAP channel any day!

(Although, on the other hand the IBAC Golden Hours broadcast *is* a little bit higher fidelity than the narrowband SCA channel where you'd traditionally find radio reading services to be situated. Probably the only improvement I have heard is IBAC doesn't have the main-channel bleedthrough that SCA always had...............)

Another query KD7--can you receive channel 10 or one of its (many) translators over the air where you are?

KOPB is most certainly limiting the bw alotted to HD3. No problemo here.

I can get a weak signal from KOPB 10 if I use an amplified antenna but no translators

The time alignment between analog and HD1 can be done in many ways. The easiest at the moment is to buy an audio processor which has the delay built in. Ours is adjustable down to 12.5 microseconds.

We have an Audemat GoldenEagle HD which measures the time difference down to one 44.1 kHz sample, or 0.0002 seconds.

A scope will work, too. Many HD Radio receivers can be forced to output analog in one channel and HD1 in the other.

I checked this morning and there still appears to be NO analog delay on either KBOO or KMHD.

sounds like they are still working on KEX HD too. Not the time alignment though, thats fine. the audio has been better in the past.

I am curious--Is IBAC the reason KMHD switched its 92kHz SCA channel of RTTY data off a couple summers ago?

this is most likely not the reason if I remember right both HD and SCA can be done at the same time and RDS which most HD stations seem to use is transmitted on a sub carrier. Could be for other reasons beside that. Never heard this because I do not own an SCA receiver but years back I remember seeing a kit in the Radioshack catalog which converted FM receivers for SCA.

'Tis what I have heard of as well. KBOO has two SCA channels broadcasting and coexisting with their IBAC channels as well.

I am not 100% certain if it was RTTY or some other low-baudrate data format.......It wasn't RDS; that just sounds like a constant high-pitch buzzing noise and is usually on 57kHz. All I do know is that was the very first SCA channel in our market that I ever tuned!

Does anybody here know what it was for? If anyone reading this has an SCA rig and is within range of KMXO (96.1) they seem to currently be doing something like it as well. However, reception here in East Vancouver, even on the mono baseband, seems to be really dodgy lately.



"Never heard this because I do not own an SCA receiver but years back I remember seeing a kit in the Radioshack catalog which converted FM receivers for SCA."

KD7, check this out~
http://members.aol.com/fmatlas/home.html
Dr. Elving has SCA radios and modkits for FM radios which make them receive SCA & SAP, if you have a rig that also gets TV audio..........

KXXO 96.1 is practically in my backyard! I am just 5 miles away from the transmitter site which is on a hill near Ike Kinswa State Park. If I had an SCA receiver I would be able to give more info but I did not know they were doing any experiments like that.

might be able to figure out something I have two radios that will tune in the IF of most FM recievers (10.7 MHz) might be able to get SCA carriers on these by using SSB mode and a little fine tuning.

57 kHz is for RDS. KGON has a subcarrier for Microsoft Spot, as does KKRZ or KKCW, I think.

I think I have heard of Microsoft Spot it is supposed to be a special SCA data service sending things like stock market and weather info to special receivers. RDS seems to be similar to packet radio used by amateur radio operators such as myself on the HF/VHF/UHF bands but the data rate is only 1200 baud at least on 144 MHz.

Isn't "Microsoft Spot" the same thing as "MSN Directband?

By my knowledge of the MSNDB system, it operates just a little bit below 67, around 66.5kHz or so.

Directband ¹ RDS!!

Oregon Tualatin Valley Amateur Radio Club (OTVARC)

SEPTEMBER MEETING - Wednesday, September 12th

Peppermill Restaurant

17455 SW Farmington Road

Beaverton Oregon

7:00 PM

Come early and share a no-host meal off the Peppermill Menu with club members and guests. Our speaker will be Jim Boyd K7MKN. Jim has installed more than two dozen HD radio stations all over the western United States, including many in Oregon. Learn about the rapidly- changing digital radio broadcast scene.

This new location is a trial to see if it will meet our club needs. Let your board members know how well you believe this location meets club needs. Email them directly, or send your comment to otvarc@gmail.com.

Gettin' kind of long. Anyone mind firing up a continuation thread?

James installed all five of the Entercom-Portland FM HD transmitters, and did the final adjustments on KBOO's mid-level-combined system.

He also swept most of the antenna systems of non-commercial AM stations on the west coast to see how many would pass HD. For instance, KOAC's won't.

knrks hd station sounds bad this afternoon. i dont know why.