My wife and teenage daughter both attended. I could not. They took some pictures and met a diverse group of people and really felt they were apart of something important.

They were impressed by many of the speakers, music and the whole vibe.

I am very proud of my daughter who is learning to live out her convictions.

I'm hoping Andrew was there taking lots of pictures.

Did you see any American flags burned?

...or see any dumbasses attend?

Good grief DD.

No, sorry, I did not attend. Thought about it. I did offer token support for it (see the poster or the postcard, with the dove with Mt. Hood inside? That's my photo they used - before it was made into a dove.). But, marches are just not my thing. I don't care for some of the sentiments expressed at these marches and feel that I can't separate myself from them. That makes me uncomfortable.

Andrew

DD-They saw no American flags being burned, but they did meet some interesting people. Talked to a family who you would call conservative Christian holding a sign that said " Jesus was about peace not war."

They also said many of the signs were clever, in good taste and showed some thought. Of course others signs went the other way which never does any good.

My daughter got her picture taken with some of the people she met including a Vietnam Vet who really soften up when my daughter asked to pose with him.

Our daughter told us recently that she is a pacifist and that maybe she will be the "messiah" for her generation. Not someone to be martyred but a voice for her generation and a person who lives out her convictions.

I couldn’t be a prouder parent.

And where is a national guard unit from Ohio, when you need one?

"And where is a national guard unit from Ohio, when you need one?"

In Iraq getting killed.

Was 3 blocks from the Justice Center at 6:30pm on my way into the Koin Center. I could see police lined up on the Justice Center side and protesters "chanting" on the other. Police warned them to not leave the sidewalk. Wanted to watch longer but had to go to work.

Okie, if that's the way you truely feel, why don't you haul your ass down there and start handing out beatings? Are you a coward? Or are you just full of shit?

Why would I want to beat them up? They were just participating in their constitutionally protected right of free speech, I just thought they should have a proven unit on hand, in case they crossed the line to insurrectionist mob, and needed to be subdued.

Apparently onl a few did that, and some of Portlands finest were able to deal with them.

Right, a proven unit like the Ohio National Guard - presumably the same unit that maintained order at Kent State in 1970? Oh, I'm sure you wish the peace protestors no harm at all, none, after making a comment like that.

Andrew

Back in the early 70's I attended classes at the University of Denver, part time, I was still in the military, and I was a Poli Sci major.

In one class we had to write a paper on the lessons learned from Kent State.

I wrote a 5 page paper, and emphisised that the main lesson, is that the national Guard really needed to work on its marksmenship program.

Got an A on it.

Peace March Turns Violent!

Isn't that a tad bit hypocritical?

Do as I say not as I do!

The way I see these things is like trying to start a camp fire. You have a lot of peaceful pieces of wood all piled together. (Participants)
Then a couple of cops show up and and light the fire. Then more show up and they toss gas on it, until finally the national guard arrives and throws the whole damn can on it and it all blows up. I am not saying the police should not be there but if they are marching peacefully without vandalizing anything leave them alone. Who cares if they are in the street or on the sidewalk......Let them go by and then it all ends peacefully!
The police and protesters in the same proximity is just asking for violence to ensue. Have the units discretely follow along with any march out of sight but ready to go should it get nasty!
It's like the Earp's and the Clanton's at the OK Corral. When they met face to face you knew something was gonna happen. Same deal...Crowd Control and Crowds, Earp's and Clanton's!
To deploy is to expect to take action. Mobilize but only deploy if needed.

Of course, not everyone thought it was a "peace protest." Some saw it as an "anti-war protest," which doesn't necessarily mean the same thing. Some people who oppose war aren't necessarily opposed to using violence, even if 99% of the people at the march were non-violent. That's again one reason I don't go to marches like this: some bad apples that I don't agree with can spoil it for everyone.

Andrew

Damn Straight.
That was a Jackson Five hit wasn't it?
And the media being present at such things only tends to fan the flames!

Were there any pictures of 44DD's burned at the protest???

I thought it was a "Hey terrorists, look at us, why dont you kill some more soldiers,so we can party some more"

Yikes! I'd rather see 44DD's displayed at the protest!

Nwokie writes:
I thought it was a "Hey terrorists, look at us, why dont you kill some more soldiers,so we can party some more"

You mean like, "Bring 'em on!"? Sorry, only Republican presidents utter nonsense like that to provoke attacks on our troops.

Andrew

Nwokie...
That would be a neo-CON get together....

Just the usual left wing narcissists who have a burning need to empower themselves with their sociopathic delusions of self-importance and superiority. Anti-war, anti-fur, anti-perspirant. It doesn't matter what they're protesting. In their hearts, they know they're right, and everyone who disagrees with them are stupid idiots, war-mongers, homophobes, racists, etc.

By marching with their fellow anarchist/marxist ilk, they get their jollies off and their egos satisfied, not to mention tremendous validation that they're "not alone" in their irrational beliefs.

But hey, it's a free country. So march and protest to your hearts content.

Hey, its a free country so generalize away!

"By marching with their fellow anarchist/marxist ilk, they get their jollies off and their egos satisfied, not to mention tremendous validation that they're "not alone" in their irrational beliefs."

So what you're saying is, that anyone who doesn't agree with the Neo-Conservative agenda has "irrational beliefs"?? Even those of us who agree with many GOP philosophies who happen to be anti-war and disagree with the Christian Right's moral thought process are "irrational"??

Skep is right - way to generalize. You wouldn't happen to be the same person I saw on 205 on the way home from work today that had the bumper sticker "Driving a Gas-Guzzler is UN-Patriotic" on their Dodge Durango by chance, are ya?

I know that more than a few Republicans marched in protest of the war.

Not only Republicans but Christian conservatives from all denominations, plenty of clergy, school teachers and every demographic imaginable.

What's really narcissist is generalizing the thoughts of 10-15 thousand people. Yes it's a free country, if you think like Wobboh!

Wobbly, I think Brianl asked you a question.....

Brainl said>>>
You wouldn't happen to be the same person I saw on 205 on the way home from work today that had the bumper sticker "Driving a Gas-Guzzler is UN-Patriotic" on their Dodge Durango by chance, are ya?

THAT WAS ME!!!!

Buring a US soldier in effgy and a flag http://linfield.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2012088&l=c6305&id=65201211,

"By marching with their fellow anarchist/marxist ilk, they get their jollies off and their egos satisfied, not to mention tremendous validation that they're "not alone" in their irrational beliefs."

Touche' Wobboh. It's not about anything concrete. It's about feeeeeeellings.

Herb

It's sad that any members of this forum or their families took part in this sick event.

Burning a U.S. soldier in effigy as well as the American flag is sick beyond belief.

I'll reserve any further comments or feelings as they are too inflammatory to post.

For those who think this sickness did not happen, here's a link to photos of it happening.

http://linfield.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2012088&id=65201211&l=c6305

Chris, have you explained to you pacifist daughter that a premature withdrawal of American groups could expand the sectarian violence in Iraq to a full scale civil war? If that happens, millions of Iraqi’s could die.

Deane-
Anytime you get a large gathering of people you're going to get whackos. People bent on doing the most disgusting thing they can think of, and of course the media is going to light it up all over the place. But even those whackos have the right to do so. It's certainly not my choice.

My daughter freely chose to be in the peace march. She along with my wife arrived early to hear speeches, talk to and take pictures of different people. At nearly 14 years of age she has a real need to make a positive difference in her part of the world.

It's not about feelings Herb and Deane it's about finding out where my daughter can put her best foot forward and make a difference. This was but one step in that journey. And I am personally offended by your comments Deane that my daughter and wife are sick people because they took part in this event in a peaceful manner. It's easy to be on the sidelines and see all the negatives from those who do the ugly....

My daughter will do more good for her world than Deane, Herb and myself combined.

Digitaldexter-
I will answer your question when you tell me how you support your kids.

Amen to that!

>>>"And I am personally offended by your comments Deane that my daughter and wife are sick people because they took part in this event in a peaceful manner."

Chris, you are my long time friend and remain so. I cannot allow that friendship and my respect for you stop me from expressing my thoughts. I consider this "peach march" and the things that took place ill advised and sick, and I have to say so. It's America and they have a right to do it, and I have a right to be sickened by it and to think those taking part are doing great harm to America and especially to our troops.

I am long past taking any of the differences in opinions personally. They are just differences in political opinions and nothing more.

"Burning a U.S. soldier in effigy as well as the American flag is sick beyond belief.

While a few wackos feel the need make a statement in an inappropriate place and time, It's certainly no sicker than burning the live soldiers and then hanging them from a bridge, all thanks to the whims of a president who lied to get those soldiers over there in the first place.

"thanks to the whims of a president who lied to get those soldiers over there in the first place."

Oh Mrs merkin! You mean our president lied to us? This can't be! The Government never lies to us! Just ask the president, right Herb?

And outing an employee of the CIA, someone unquestionably on our side in the war on terror, as revenge against someone exposing one of the untruths during the run up to the invasion of Iraq is not sick?

Spare me from the radical left wing dribble.

So you're ok with an administration that leaks the identity of an intelligence employee, someone on our side, to justify its own case for war?

That's pretty sad.

>>>"So you're ok with an administration that leaks the identity of an intelligence employee, someone on our side, to justify its own case for war?"

Is that what they did? Or is that what the Democrats want people to think they did? As I recall, most everyone around knew what Plame did. Even her neighbors on her street.

You people are just looking for something to piss and moan about. How about some ideas for the future of the country instead?

If someone released the identity of a covert employee, they should be rosecuted, but the prosecutor found no basis for charges.

I remember a few years ago a former CIA employee wrote a book, naming several undercover CIA employees, and most liberals at the time supported it, on free speech grounds.

Deane- We all have our reasons for why we choose to support certain ideas, thoughts and actions. It comes from our own life experiences. Thus your experiences and Herb's are different than mine. We are shaped by our choices and experiences thus your personal expressions do not bother me. However when you put my daughter and wife in the same category as those who burned flags and caused damage then I take issue.

At the peace march here in Portland were signs that said "Republicans for Peace." At the peace march was a Shiite who was one of the speakers and he said that we don't need American's to free us. He said their own personal history is one filled with making changes when one regime has failed them. They have had many civil wars over the centuries and don't need American soldiers to free them.

On a spiritual level this war is wrong. If you have 11 or 12 minutes to listen to a short sermon by the Rev. Jim Wallis I have posted the link.

http://www.sojo.net/special/multimedia/070316_jim_wallis_cpw.mp3

FYI-Our friendship is still intact.

Deane writes:
Is that what they did? Or is that what the Democrats want people to think they did? As I recall, most everyone around knew what Plame did. Even her neighbors on her street.

Nope - just right-wing talking points about her neighbors knowing what she did. On the contrary, before the leak her identity was a guarded secret. At least, that's what Plame said under oath last week. I'd love to see those right-wing talkers repeat this garbage under oath and see how their story changes.

Andrew

"Digitaldexter- I will answer your question when you tell me how you support your kids."

Chris I don't see how that question is relevent to my question.

craig you wanted to know what else happened in front of the Justice center. As you may have seen there were primarily the aforementioned "....anarchist/marxist ilk" and they showed the true lack of intelligence that make up this small group. Granted it was like watching a NASCAR race where you don't want anyone hurt but you do enjoy the wrecks. I guess I was looking forward to observing some State troopers beat on a few knuckle heads...But thats our country everyone can protest whether they are right or wrong....I would love to see them in China trying to do the same thing. Problably would not have heard from them again.

The right-wing talk show hosts are the public relations personnel for the small bunch of jerks who tried to ruin the peace march. Victoria Taft posted pictures of the minority jerks, which is exactly what they would have wanted her to do. She played right into their hands, so I guess she should be arrested as a supporter of the anarchists.

"have you explained to you pacifist daughter that a premature withdrawal of American groups could expand the sectarian violence in Iraq to a full scale civil war? If that happens, millions of Iraqi’s could die."

We have talked about this war on many occasions, pulling out being one topic. I tell her there are people who believe civil war will happen after the Americans leave. Her response. "Isn't that happening now because of our being there? And what about all those Iraqi children that are dying needlessly, along with their moms and dads. Dad- aren't children, and women the biggest causalities of most wars and not soldiers? Dad, why did President Bush not tell us the truth? Why is he sending more young kids to die?"

Digitaldexter...I invite you over to my house and have you explain to my 13 and 11yr old this war.

deane sez: "How about some ideas for the future of the country instead?"

It doesn't matter. The president isn't listening.

You know the saying "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Iraqi's are dying needlessly because the insurgents are blowing up restaurants, shopping markets, funerals, weddings etc. That could increase with a premature withdrawal of U.S. troops. Ideally I would like to see a peaceful resolution to the sectarian violence.

The so-called peace activists are not for peace but for American withdrawal. That is a big difference.

"Digitaldexter...I invite you over to my house and have you explain to my 13 and 11yr old this war."

You're not being serious. That is a just a debate tactic.

Chris, I hope in two years time my 11 year old daughter morphs into as thoughtful human as yours.

>>>"Dad, why did President Bush not tell us the truth?"

Chris, it saddens me to think there are people, you included, who are teaching their children this kind of thing. It's clear the President believed that there were WMDs, along with a lot of other people from both parties. We don't need to rehash this portion of the debate however.

Believing there are WMDs and then finding none is not lying. To teach young children that the President was lying to them is just plain wrong. He made a mistake.

This borders on the wrong the Arabs are doing by teaching their children to hate Jews.

I just find all of this indoctrination of children wrong. Obviously, you and others on the left don't. We just happen to differ. But, I can't stand by and not tell you how wrong I think it is.

DD or Pat.... My offer for you to explain this war to my children stands. Email me at chris@hughestaylor.com and I will give you directions to my house. Let's set up a date and time.

Bookemdono that was a very sweet thing for you to say about my daughter. Her 8th grade basics teacher told us at a parent teacher conference earlier in the school year that "your daughter is on a mission." We had never put into those terms before but it certianly fits.

Deane-
I am sorry you feel our parenting style dose not live up to your way of raising children. But you are way off base assuming we are teaching our children to hate, and blindly believe anything we might believe. First and foremost our kids know they are loved and are cherished. They know they live in a safe environment and when they challenge us they know they will not be hurt. Disciplined yes, but not abused.

Questioning authority with respect is another thing we teach. Our daughter didn't have to look too hard to realize how wrong Bush was. You say Bush did the best he could with the information he had gathered, but he didn't show patience and now has made the biggest foreign policy error. I don't need to tell my children how bad Bush has performed they see it themselves.

Our daughter is one of those kids who is so bright and smart it's scary. Yet she has a heart of gold. Not only does her report cards indicate a strong learner but every teacher indicates that she adds value to the classroom.

The best thing our daughter can do is live out her convictions and if you think that's bad indoctrination than I agree that we differ on how to raise kids.

Chris, I have no desire to tell you how to raise your kids. I have no doubt that yours is one of the more caring and thoughtful households in America. And, I mean that.

My criticism is limited to the area where I think it's wrong to contribute in any way to the breakdown and disrespect of the American system.

I'll step up to the plate and say that I think Bush has done such a poor job as President that I am anxious for elections to come and someone new take his place. It's time for a new beginning. But that's not based on thinking he lied or was deceitful in any way. I just believe the job is too big for him. So, you can see this is not about defending Bush. It's about retaining respect for the American institutions that have made us a great country. When something is wrong, we can change it at the next election if we wish.

Deane writes:
My criticism is limited to the area where I think it's wrong to contribute in any way to the breakdown and disrespect of the American system.

On the contrary, many of us believe that peaceful protest (which is what 99% of the people were engaged in on Sunday) is one of the most American, patriotic things we can do. Questioning our government is also one of the most American things one can do.

Support the government? Of course, to a point. It should never be unconditional support. Many Americans supported Bush on Iraq for a very long time and he has broken his trust with the American people on it. The people protesting on Sunday were not protesting against "America," they were marching in support of peace - largely against the actions of one presidential administration.

This man had it right when he said,

The President is merely the most important among a large number of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct, his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth, pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else.

- Theodore Roosevelt

Andrew

dd sez: "Iraqi's are dying needlessly"


This because the president told us we need to rid saddam of wmds. have you told your kids this? if they recieved a well rounded education they'll ask you "did we find them?"

deane sez: "My criticism is limited to the area where I think it's wrong to contribute in any way to the breakdown and disrespect of the American system."

The president is doing a fine job of doing this himself, so you'll have to excuse those that take lead from his example.

Deane-
Thank you for your response. I guess I've got my "defend my child" badge on today. I do appreciate your comments concerning our household. Parenting is not for the faint of heart.

Here's the reason our daughter participated in the peace march. The writing is that of my wife.

I also recently shared with our daughter a news article I saw online of some government officials dragging undocumented mexican workers away from their families and jobs and locking them up because they were undocumented. We talked about why aren't the multi-national meat packing companies the ones being locked up for hiring and mistreating the workers? Our daughter said "mommy, I feel so helpless, I want to do something to make it stop!". ('It' being the war, the mistreatment of others smaller and weaker, the cuba jail thing, the whole Bush regime double speak, people being hurt all over the world etc.) That's when she decided she needed to go to the peace march downtown.

Our daughter may have been marching in a peace rally but what she got was an education few her age would do. She wants to make a difference, she wants to change the world. She knows this is no "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington" type of ending, but she does have the right to share her views and add her voice to the mix.

She wants peace in Iraq, so do you and I believe everyone on this board wants it too. Sometimes it starts with a march in ones own life to realize just how hard the journey can be. It's her step of faith and belief that good can happen by just marching. It's something she has control over.

"This borders on the wrong the Arabs are doing by teaching their children to hate Jews."

Not even close. Sounds to me like Chris has done a pretty good job of teaching the value of critical thinking to his daughter. If she believes W lied, she certainly has enough ammunition to back up that belief. Bush blatantly lied during the state of the union address...Rumsfeld lied about knowing "exactly" where the WMD's were...Cheney lied several times during the debate with John Edwards and has lied repeatedly when denying he ever made a connection between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda...Scooter Libby lied to protect his boss...lies have been told about the attorney firings...and I'd suspect the list could go on.

If she comes to the conclusion that Bush lied to us about the reasons for invading Iraq, the case against the Bush administration is certainly a strong one. Given the evidence so far from an administration that is far from the epitome of honesty, it's pretty easy to see how she could reach the conclusion she has.

Radio921: Thanks! Thought that's the way it was heading at 6:30pm. The march & rally was over at 4:30 to 5pm officially, so all that was left was the fringe element to stir up trouble.

Chris: I hope your daughter was long gone by then.

Yes my daughter and wife were on MAX and heading home soon after the march ended.

DJ said>>>
Spare me from the radical left wing dribble.

Spare the rest of the United States from the EXTREME REICH neo-CONer GARBAGE!

DD's...
How do you support your kids???

Of course he hasnt instillied a sense of history in her, From recorded history, countries have taken action to secure their interests, and The US has done it since its inception.

With todays protesters, they would have demanded Washington quit after the fiasco of the New York campaigns, and Lincold quit the civil war after Manasas/Bull Run. Or Roosevelt start peace talks with Tojo after Guadalcanal.

no they wouldn't. these wars werent based on a lie.

No there wasnt , there wasnt any lies, the war was based on Saddams threat to us interests, along with his access to WMD and ties to terrorists, all of which exisited, along with his refusal to comply with the cease fire agreements he had made.

Nwokie is WAYNE!!!

Nwokie said - "No there wasnt , there wasnt any lies, the war was based on Saddams threat to us interests, along with his access to WMD and ties to terrorists, all of which exisited, along with his refusal to comply with the cease fire agreements he had made."

You lie too much.

Bush lied during the state of the union address. His case for war was built in front of the American public on a document that was known within the intelligence community to be a forgery, and not a very good one at that.

It wasn't about Saddam's "access" to WMD, but his possession of stockpiles of WMD, which Rumsfeld lied about knowing "exactly" where they are...or as he put it “Near Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there.”

That was one minor document, which at the time, even the intelligence agencies wernt sure about.

But wars are almost never fought for the reasons politicians give.

The 1st Mexican/American war was publicaly fought because mexico moved a few troops into contested area, when it was actuall fought because President Polk wanted to annex California, New mexico and Arizona.

The Spanish American war was fought suppossedly because the Spanish blew up the Maine, when everyone knew that wasnt true, it was fought because we wanted the Spanish out of this hemisphere.

We were essentially in a state of war with Japan and Germany before Pearl Harbor, we were already supplying Britian with weapons and China with aircraft and weapons

He LIED!!!!!!!
GET OVER IT!

nwokie, let me put it this way, Bush DUPED me into supporting him on the iraq invasion. Now that I've found out I've been DUPED, I'm going to kick Bush's @$$ until I see his head on a plate.

Who knows...years from now we might learn the Iraq War had nothing to do with WMD's or freeing the Iraqi's but was really about our President's need to get revenge against the man who tried to kill his daddy.

Oh...and for the oil, too.

I'll take the oil first. IMHO, it lies at the root of any revenge related to the oil grubbing daddy.

Lied? Or just stupid?

Which is it folks?

Either way, it's totally lame and unjustified.

The more horrible element is this Residents refusal to even address the issue. He's not even of the character to face whichever of those realities make sense! That makes him a coward or sociopath on top of being either stupid or a liar.

It's all ugly and that's the takeaway for anyone having trouble with this guy.


Oh, and it gets even more ugly. Most of the GOP continues to help him in this whole twisted mess. They are likely driven by greed and fear. Greed in that their power serves them well, fear in that they might not only lose that, but any perception of credence they might harbour right now as well.

And, of course, the takeaway on that is that it's also all ugly.

There is no real good in the GOP right now, unless you are a corporation, or person of significant wealth and or power. The party, in general, is not serving those who elected it.

Even those with some agenda: christian nation, flag burning, gay issues, abortion, etc... have gotten screwed! There has been little real legislation and a whole lot of marginalization from the growing anger associated with these things. Truth is, anyone supporting the GOP right now, that's not of significant power and or wealth, has been used and abused.

Getting back on topic somewhat, is there any wonder that people are acting out in growing numbers! This sort of thing happens when we have leaders who are self-serving like this! Nobody, who actually matters, wants this war. In fact, we won the war and I don't know what to call what we are doing right now.

Attending a rally like this one is a real education, in that all of these elements are seen working together. For a younger person, there is a perspective there that's difficult to grasp any other way.

It's not like we are getting solid news to document it. A very vocal minority of us are working daily to distort it and co-opt it for their own ends. The military law prevents them from speaking about it generally, and the Iraqi government and general state of affairs there prevents the same.

Combine this with our tendancy to focus on our selves and not consider the rest of the world, and it's difficult to grok what's really going on and what the impact might be.

Say what you want, but it's all ugly. IMHO, it's better for younger people to get a sense of that than to shelter them out of fear. Maybe, if enough of them see more of the picture, we won't all be sitting around old, rubbing our wrinkles, wondering at how terrible things are.

Military law does not prevent military members from speaking out. They cant speak disrespectfully about the President or members of congress, but they can criticize the war all they want. But most military members are in favor of the war.

Nwokie said>>>
But most military members are in favor of the war.

Until they get home and find out what a utter DISASTER the war really is....

The army just had one of its best years as far as recruitment and retention of soldiers.

While I have been retired almost 15 years now, I am still in touch with a lot of active duty military, and my son in law, daughter and several nephews and nieces are currently serving, and they all support the war.

GREAT!
The armed forces as a whole has had the hardest time in the last 25 years getting kids to join. LOOK IT UP BEFORE YOU type.....

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/03/army_recruiting_awards_070321w/

I'm not against anyone who wants to voluntarily serve in the military, my question would be the quality of the those being recruited.

Don't worry Chris, the Bush adminstration adopted a policy of not accepting anyone with French lineage in their blood.

Herb said, "It's not about anything concrete. It's about feeeeeeellings."

My feeling is that a hundred of our finest Oregonians have died for an aggressive and premeditated foreign policy that has deep roots in secrecy, greed and corruption.

My feeling is that hundreds more have been wounded or crippled to make very wealthy people wealthier. Since no member of our Armed Forces makes a million being gallant, no member of the elite can be found in the ranks.

My feeling is that no group of Americans deserves our full support and the unvarnished truth more than our troops. Lies that only infuriate me, kill men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan every day.

My feeling is that they are not dying for freedom, but instead to satisfy the blood lust of an Empire run by false prophets, fascists, dry drunks, insiders and perverts.

My feelings are concrete, but far less concrete than your soul. If you do not feel that this killing has to stop, I hope the ghost of Theodor Geisel haunts and taunts you forever. Cuddle up with the "Butter Battle Book" -- it is suitable for all reading levels.

Nwokie...
The armed forces AS A WHOLE!!!!!!!!

Thank you...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/06recruiting.htm

On average the whole us military did pretty good.

The army national guard missed by 1%, and the army reserve by 5%, I dont know what the naval reserves problem was.

But overall the military as a whole met or exceeded their recruiting goals.

Nwokie, stop letting the air out of Trixter's balloon. There isn't much in it to start with.

So what do you think the numbers you're showing mean Nwokie?

The numbers mean that by repeatedly lowering their standards, the services were able to *almost* "meet their goals".

Whether those goals were adjusted to reflect the likely outcome is not discussed.

On another subject... if Bush & co didn't "lie" then they were being willfully ignorant in the extreme. If you don't agree then you too are being willfully ignorant.

It means the military as a whole got the number of recruits they needed.

And since they fudge a little on the high side when forcasting their needs, they probably gor more than they needed.

Nwokie: I can't understand why you of all people cannot see that Iraq is the new Vietnam. We left that quagmire much too late before either of us loss some good friends. We have never been successful in fighting in a country were even our allies cannot be trusted.

Thanks DA, you just keep proving the point that all the Libs on here do...
Keep it up....

Nwokie your stats are saying that recruits were down then right???

DA!
Thanks again....

Their goals may not've been met had the maximum enlistment age not been raised from 35 to 42. Now, thanks to the Army those who find buying a convertible will not lead to victory in the fight against a midlife crisis can now travel.

http://www.army.mil/recruitingandretention/
enlstment in up.
What does it matter their age, as long as they meet the physical standards?
20 years ago, as a training Sgt, i was arguing that the army should take more GED's, to me someone that works to get their GED has shown more initiave than most high school grads.

Nwokie

"20 years ago, as a training Sgt"

I thought you said you were an officer in Vietnam more than 30 years ago.

I have never said I was an officer, I said I had former officers working for me. I know of a lot of Vietnam Officers, that were reduced to enlisted status after the war.

And I served from 66 through 93.
But I am a graduate from basic officers course and General Staff college. Figure out how someone that was never an officer did that.

nwokie, okay, if we have met recruitment goals (well, almost), do you think we have a military fully prepared to take on another large "incident" in the world?

Another important question, do you know who Wes Cooley was and what led to his downfall?

Suppossedly we used to have a military capable of fighting 2 major wars and one minor, that was never true, since WWII.

We currently have approx 14 divisions in the army, thats counting 3 independent brigades/regiments as a division.

At the end of WWII, we had approx 90 divisions.

We have sufficient forces, to hold the line, while reserve divisions are brought on line, I specify reserve not national guard, the reserves have approx 10 training divisions, which are staffed by drill sgts, and skeleton staffs, their job, in case of serious trouble is to quickly train soldiers, at the end of about 16 weeks, the drills become the platoon/squad sgts, and you have 10 divisions in place.

No different than WWII or Korea or any other war.

We have lots of equipment in storage ever been to AMARAC?

Plus there are a lot of people like me, retired army, retired reserve etc, that could fill several divisions in an emergency.

Yes I know why cooley was, he was a 1 term congressman that inflated his military experience, somethink like Kerry.

Nwokie said>>>>
inflated his military experience, somethink like Kerry.

Like DUHbya tried to???? Kinda hard to serve when your drunk and stoned on coke....

Dont know about stoned, but the military has had a lot of heavy drinkers who did pretty well, from US Grant, our first 4 star, to Col Boyington.

U.S. Grant was arguably one of the worst human beings who ever lived. If he could run the Army that hammered, fine, but he was not a good man by virtually any measure. Still, as Napoleonic as he was, he was not a blockhead. A coked up, drunk or simply excited blockhead is a danger to himself and others.

Pappy, on the other hand, was a true American hero. When we first met, he was very gracious to a wide-eyed kid. A few years later, he gave me a sharp salute, a firm handshake, and with a twinkle in his eye, told me and the other CAP cadets about the joys and risks of being a pilot. As a rule, most folks with gin blossoms are fine. Everyone loves flowers, but only if they bloom in the sunlight.

Recruiting. A few folks have touched on "moral waivers" and that is where this war is gonna bite us most in the long run. Google a bit, read the facts and you will not be excited to know that our jails are swelling the ranks.

In this current conflict, many of the hundred thousand plus exceptions have been felons. Evidence has already shown that these folks commit rapes, murders and other violent crimes both in battle and upon their return. The DoD has studied this issue for years and has never concluded that "moral waivers" were a success.

Bush has admitted to having a drinking problem, which he overcame.

We don't know if his drinking problem had any affect on his national guard service.

There is no evidence Bush used cocaine.

If Bush didn't use cocaine, why didn't he forcefully deny it? He could have said, "I never used cocaine - EVER - and I resent this smear campaign against me." That would have put that rumor to bed. Instead, Bush merely said he would have passed a government drug test when he worked for his father, giving the impression he was evading the whole question.

Andrew

Why hasn't the media found any evidence of Bush using cocaine? If they had, they surely would have reported it.

What evidence would there be? Probably won't find the receipts. People who have sold cocaine tend not to give media interviews bragging about selling it. Other people who used it with him might not want to pipe up for the same reason - or for fear of retribution from the Bush family. Funny how a phone call from a powerful family that you've crossed can ruin a business deal or a whole career.

Bush's former sister-in-law claims he used it at Camp David while Daddy was president, although her claims are dubious.

If I asked if you'd ever used cocaine in your life, DD, would you deny it? Or would you say you would have passed a government drug ten years ago? Can't you admit that Bush's answers about alleged cocaine use seem rather suspect and give the impression that he is evading the question probably because he used it? Otherwise, what's the purpose of answering the question in such a convoluted way?

Andrew

So yes, DD, that's a question I regularly ask too: What evidence would you accept? Anything short of a confession?

I would accept a testimonial from a friend, relative or an aquatence.

For example, we know Al gore was a heavy pot smoker, because a friend said they smoked pot together.

So you think a friend or relative of Bush's is really going to admit on the record that he used cocaine?

Andrew

Perhaps.

Doubt it.

Me too.

Nobody answers a question like that, unless there is a greater truth being hidden.

Nobody.

Fair enough DD. So let me just ask you plainly: Do you think Bush ever did cocaine? Not " Do you know... " but " Do you think..."

I would say it is possible Bush used cocaine, since I can't prove he didn't.

So is that a " yes."?

These students are from my alma mater. It's this kind of conviction
that gives me hope for the future.

http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2007/03/jim-wallis-four-from-spokane .html

Excellent!

On a side note, how does one get arrested for praying in front of the White House? We, the people, have the right to express ourselves to our government. It is ours, and that means it works for us. It functions via our mutual consent, and this means the power comes from us to do our bidding in the least restrictive manner possible.

Our founders were all about this. How is it that we've gone so far astray as to arrest people for wearing T-shirts, praying, and expressing themselves?

Prayer is not a violent activity. Given where this Resident is, it does make him look bad, but that's not a crime that I know of.

Seems to me, said expression is a powerful check on our government. If there is a need for such expression, and it ends up being potent, then that in and of itself is all the support we need to justify significant change, and that's the whole point these people made!

And they get arrested for it?

Truth is, if things are running fairly well, then these kinds of expression are marginalized in the face of reality. Arresting people, for protected expression, particularly when they represent no threat, other than exposing what is poor governance, is wrong.

Yep Chris, I think I agree!

And I've no problem with anybody having that on their record either.

How can they get arrested, depends on where they were, and what they were doing, if they were blocking traffic or sidewalks, if they were in a restricted area etc.

no parade permit, its the pokie for you. obviously praying doesn't help.