Were you watching the sky today? Did you notice all the jets flying and leaving their trails? Did you notice how those trails formed clouds or haze over Portland?

Everyone should have stayed in doors today. No gardening and what not. I'd love to know if you experienced breathing problems today or what you will experience as side effects tomorrow, especially if you did outside work today.

Craig, you surprise me.

http://www.debunker.com/conspiracy.html

"The Facts: Under certain meterological conditions, high-altitude contrails can serve as a catalyst for the growth of cirrus clouds that sometimes expand to enormous size. In other words, what starts out as a small contrail sometimes seeds the growth of a huge cirrus cloud. You will note that so-called "chemtrails" are seldom if ever seen except in the presence of cirrus clouds. However, if they were actually "posion spraying," this correlation would not exist, and they would be seen just as often in skies with cumulous clouds, or with no clouds at all."

It may perhaps be suspicious of us to assume that anything is in a contrail. However, it is also silly to ignore the fact that programs exist to seed clouds. Yes, while admittedly far out, they could be used for less benign purposes.

NOAA:
http://www.aoml.noaa.gov/hrd/nhurr97/CSEED.HTM

A study in Colorado:
http://rams.atmos.colostate.edu/gkss.html

A program in Nevada:
http://cloudseeding.dri.edu/

A program in Utah:
http://water.utah.gov/cloudseeding/

Private companies do this job:
http://www.nawcinc.com/wmfaq.html

You guys are weird. Not because of what you believe, but because it seems like you read my mind sometimes.

Not to hijack the thread - but - I heard that there are no contrails in/over Australia. Can anyone else confirm that?

Edselehr: Scott Stevens a Meteorologist for 9 years at KPVI-TV would disagree with you. Take a look at his website:

http://www.weatherwars.info/chemtrails.htm

Craig, I don't have the credentials or expertise to present my reasons in full - I'd have to do the research and pull up the sources, which would take time. Plus, for me it's not a topic worthy of the effort to debate it - especially with you, a person I respect in so many ways.

Let's just say when it comes to chemtrails, where you choose to be a believer I'll choose to be a skeptic.

Jet engines today are highly strung beasts that depend on a critical balance of jet fuel (a certain grade) and air in order to deliver power, effiency and be noise-free. In addition, there is a need to maintain a certain temparature operating range. Upset the balance of any one of these things, either the plane won't fly or an engine will disingrate.

The addition of even a small amount of foriegn chemicals into the fuel will not go unnoticed.

Knowing this, I think there is more to the "chem"trail story than we are being told.


chickenjuggler, re: australia. for one thing, hardly any jets fly over australia -- its a big country with nowhere for jets to fly to.

I have been in a aviation family my whole life. Many folks, from old timers to belt-loop pilots, will tell you that a contrail is a contrail, but that a cropduster would look different at that height. They also know it takes a delicate balance of outside temperature, altitude, condensation and exhaust to make a contrail whether it is a turbofan, turboprop or even a very high flying reciprocal. After that, the skeptics battle and the conversation usually goes nowhere, but it is often funny.

Yes, the skies are different now. Whether our climate is starting to be micromanaged by a select few, or there is something ominous afoot, well, only time will tell. I do not like the idea that urban areas should not be able to look up into a clear blue sky. I too have noticed seeding on crystal clear days. It would not be mixed in the fuel. It could be sprayed into the exhaust, something like old-school air show smoke, but I would guess that it is atomized from the wings, much like a beat up yellow Ag-Cat screaming across the Hood River orchards. Some photos have shown a modified tail boom, much like a tanker would have for fuel.

Yes, it does easily lead one to funny or morbid questions. Is there something up there we ought not see? I mean, c'mon, that is no excuse, the skunk works have been keeping us looking up for years. As long as we have flown commercially, we have always carried cute little cameras.

Or is it going to be the projection screen for some fake second coming? Ah, yes, Leo Strauss will descend from the sky, meet his disciples and stamp out individualism. Sure, the silly questions are easy, but there are some legitimate questions.

It does make one shudder when you think of what has happened in the past, from Hanford to Tuskegee and a thousand places in between. They really do not have any specific boundaries if you look to the track record, whether it be the DOE, DOD or any other three letter agency. So long as the pot is stirred by agitprop like 24 and the X-Files, it will be easy to marginalize current suspicions. Still, history is enough of a guide.

Not to deviate too much from topic, but here's a story you might not have heard. This flight was one just like the many B-36s that my Dad saw a few years later when he was growing up in Texas. It never came back from British Columbia, and well, neither did a potential nuke. Ooopsie-daisy. I wonder if Neil Young, a Canadian, was inspired for his own, "Broken Arrow" by the events of February 13, 1950:
http://www.air-and-space.com/b-36%20wrecks.htm#44-92075
http://www.user.dccnet.com/welcomewoods/Nuclear_Free_Georgia_Strait/b_arrow1.htm l
http://www.portaec.net/library/peace/1950_bomber_crash_in_bc.html

Paranoia reigns supreme. I believe that those who cannot (or choose not) to control things in their own lives find "great evil plots" to worry about.

Secondly, we give the government too much credit. If they can't keep the borders tight or the Twin Towers erect, they surely couldn't be doing a very good job at "subersive mind control" or whatever else they supposedly are engaged-in.

I think everyone is blinded to the reality around them. We all need those special glasses like in John Carpenter's movie "They Live". Rowdy Roddy Piper kicked some but in that film!

"If they can't keep the borders or the Twin Towers erect, they surely couldn't be doing a very good job at "subversive mind control" or whatever else they supposedly are engaged-in."

Mike: It certainly looks that way from the standard news releases but is the United States of America, the most advanced country in the world, really screwing up this bad in the areas you mentioned? Or is this exactly what our leaders want in the first place, to advance THEIR motives and goals? Do we have evidence of this from the past? I can answer that. Yes!

OK, it's all a huge well thought-out conspiracy and we're going to 'big brother' hell.

...heh-heh, gotta go mow the lawn now.

"...heh-heh, gotta go mow the lawn now."

Mike: Watch out for those gopher holes! Sounds to me like you're prone to getting your head stuck in one, like in the sand...heh-heh!

Strictly speaking, the purpose of cloud seeding is "weather modification." However, I can remember seeing contrails more than 26 years ago, so I don't see why this is a big issue now. I am really skeptical of the claims that the airplanes that produce these clouds are spraying poison simply because this would be a very inefficient way of doing so. Remember that the airplanes generating these contrails are several miles up in the air. By the time that these poisons reached the earth's surface, they would be very highly diluted.

Hey Craig, I heard the reason that Saylors in Beaverton closed was the finding of secret government microphones in the ribeye steaks. Any truth to that rumor?

Mike: It's worse than that. I believe there will be a day in the future when WE will all have to answer to our government on what we've "posted" here in the past.

...and that will be followed by one hell of a revolution, or it just isn't worth being here.

I don't consider myself a conspiracy theorist, but I have considered that one day, we might find ourselves in an Orwellian scenario, in which a governmental entity or perhaps even some private entity uses technology to destroy personal privacy. Said entity might even be able to get people to go along with the plan in the name of "societal good."

If that were to happen, would people revolt by getting rid of cell phones with GPS chips, not using the Internet, and paying in cash whenever possible? Or, is the convenience of these things too socially addicting?

There is no personal privacy anymore. Anyone who thinks there is lives in dreamland, and I don't mean Area 51.

"If that were to happen, would people revolt by getting rid of cell phones with GPS chips, not using the Internet, and paying in cash whenever possible? Or, is the convenience of these things too socially addicting?"

Oh, I'm sure we'd dump them. If people were to become convinced that their personal electronic transactions were being closely monitored by the government, I believe there would be a major purge of such devices. Americans love convenience, but are generally trustworthy (that's a good trait I think) until their trust is violated. Then watch out.

I personally use cash for a lot of transactions. Cell does not have GPS, but I don't mind the Internet just yet...

Well the government is at it again today. Look up in the sky for lots of Chemtrails, that is if you can see them through the Chemclouds that have formed from the earlier Chemtrail Spray.

people give up their cell phones,never happen, In japan the phone company has a service, where you can get a printout of where your kids or spouses phones have been, and if your employees carry company phones, them.

Huh? Somebody's been sipping from the cooling tower again.

I hope not, the cooling tower has no top and is contaminated from the Chemspray.

Double dipping! Double good!

Double delicious! Double Mint Gum!

Double D's!

Yowzers!

This is conspiracy gone wild.
Jets make a contrail, which is caused by the temperature differential.

Occassionally, a jet will dump fuel, if it is making an emergency landing, long time ago aircraft would dump waste, IE someone goes to the bathroom. Railroad cars used to do that, the toilet opened up onto the tracks.

I love it!

The "Maybe it will just dissappear / dissapate" idea. If we go high enough, drop the turd, nobody will ever know...

All I know about these things is that, as a kid, I would sometimes lay in a grassy field, looking up at them slowly take form...

Edit: ...and I've done the same during a really great lightning storm too. (It's over, I lived and don't regret it, but could have!)

Ever find "blue ice", thats from a leaking aircraft toilet.

Nope. Hope it does not find me!

Theres been more than one person, have a big chunk of it come through their roof.

Leaking aircraft toilet? now, I'm not saying "blue ice" doesn't happen, but I don't see how "toliet liquid" could be leaking out of an aircraft cabin that is pressurized. If a cabin can't be pressurized properly, the pilot will return to the airport. The chances of both a leaky toliet AND cabin pressure problems at the same time is fairly remote.

If a "toliet leak" develops in mid-flight to the point where its dripping outside of the the aircraft, I think the aircraft will have bigger problems needing immediate attention than concern about dropping "blue ice" on the population (sudden decompression!).

I think we're talking a ground-based "leak" here where spilled liquid outside the pressured compartment on the plane later freezes (oops, the ground crew spilled poop water in the underbody somewhere) in flight and it falls off.

OR we have private pilots peeing outside their doors or taking a dump even mid flight. Think about it. I bet it happens and more likely the source of the "blue ice" you're preserving in your freezer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_ice_(aircraft)

I dont make this stuff up.

Craig Adams controls the weather. No, seriously. I saw it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears. Yesterday, he came to work in a complete downpour. It was a gullywasher, a real monsoon, but it all changed when he stepped into the studio. He opened his mic, started spinning some great songs, and the sky cleared almost completely. After that fantastic airshift, I am convinced that the man is a meteorological shamen, in addition to being the greatest weekender in broadcasting.

Skep, private pilots do not "pee out the door." They have been known to use a H.E.R.E. bottle and dump it in flight, but not often. Usually that ends up in a bush by the ramp or down the biffie. If it is cold enough or you are high enough that your piddle would freeze, you do not have a window open. The rush of sucking air in the toilet of a commercial airliner is your assurance that the plane is pressurized. For the most part, only the cabin in an aircraft is kept in that state. You are correct in assuming most of these problems start on the ground.

the c130 aircraft, and some others had a funnel in the side,with a hose that went to the outside.

Anyone notice the Chemtrails tonight with the full moon? I've noticed over the years the government sprays at night, most likely to hide a good deal of the total amount of spaying going on in the Spring.

"One of the pillars of U.S. science, mathematician and computer wizard John von Neumann, started working on weather modification right after World War II. In the late 1940s, he convinced the Defense Dept. to invest in research that he hoped could be used to vanquish Communism by causing droughts and devastating crops in the Soviet Union.

Apparent early successes with cloud-seeding tactics that induced rain spurred the Pentagon to fund modest efforts for some 20 years, and it unleashed a concerted five-year assault during the Vietnam War, starting in 1967. Dubbed Project Popeye, its goal was to prolong the monsoon season and thus impede the movement of enemy troops and supplies on muddy jungle trails.

By 1977, the military was spending $2.8 million a year on weather-modification research. That year, partly in reaction to Popeye, the United Nations passed a resolution banning the hostile use of all environmental modification techniques. This led to a treaty that the U.S. ratified in 1978. Although the treaty doesn't ban peaceful applications, or so-called benign weather modification, the Pentagon elected to eliminate all such research in 1979."
-- Business Week, October 20, 2005
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/oct2005/tc20051020_323701.htm?cam paign_id=rss_tech

"Weather control, as well as "weather tampering", is expressly forbidden dating from at least December 10, 1976, when the "United Nations General Assembly Resolution 31/72, TIAS 9614 Convention on the Prohibition of Military or Any Other Hostile Use of Environmental Modification Techniques" was adopted."
-- Source Watch
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Weather_control

"The Florida based company, Dyn-o-mat, used a military aircraft to drop four tonnes of its powder on to a developing storm cloud. The cloud disappeared from radar screens, which were monitoring the experiment."
-- BBC, August 2, 2001
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1469610.stm

"The scientists added that a cart and horse problem persists because considerable cash is being dropped into weather modification experiments that don't have the benefit of substantive research. They cited one company's study that estimated as much as $30 million is being spent on weather modification in the United States."
-- Fox News, December 8, 2005
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,178183,00.html

"The Weather Modification Association was organized in 1950 to cultivate a better understanding of weather modification techniques, impacts, and expectations among program sponsors, program operators, and the scientific community, and to promote ethical professional conduct and a free exchange of information."
-- Weather Modification Association
http://www.weathermodification.org/

"Getting the particles into the stratosphere wouldn't be a problem -- you could generate them easily enough by burning sulfur, then dumping the particles out of high-flying 747s, spraying them into the sky with long hoses or even shooting them up there with naval artillery. They'd be invisible to the naked eye, Wood argued, and harmless to the environment."
-- Rolling Stone
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/12343892/can_dr_evil_save_the_world/1

"The work involves using plasma — an ionized gas — to reconfigure the ionosphere. Mirage would employ a microwave transmitter on the ground and a small rocket that shoots chaff into the air to produce about a liter of plasma at 60-100 km. (36- 60 mi.) in altitude, changing the number of electrons in a select area of the ionosphere to create a virtual barrier."
-- Defense Technology International
http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/dti0206/index.php?startpage=12

"Clearly, it offers the ability to degrade the effectiveness of enemy forces. That could come from flooding an opponent’s encampment or airfield to generating downright downpours that disrupt enemy troop comfort levels. On the flipside, sparking a drought that cuts off fresh water can stir up morale problems for warfighting foes.

Even fooling around with fog and clouds can deny or create concealment – whichever weather manipulation does the needed job.

In this regard, nanotechnology could be utilized to create clouds of tiny smart particles. Atmospherically buoyant, these ultra-small computer particles could navigate themselves to block optical sensors. Alternatively, they might be used to provide an atmospheric electrical potential difference -- a way to precisely aim and time lightning strikes over the enemy’s head – thereby concoct thunderbolts on demand."
-- SPACE.com
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/051031_mystery_monday.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9880231/

"Weather modification will become a part of domestic and international security and could be done unilaterally, through alliance networks--particularly regional ones--or through an ad hoc coalition or a UN framework. It could have offensive and defensive applications and even be used for deterrence purposes. The ability to generate precipitation, fog, and storms on earth or to modify space weather, improve communications through ionospheric modification (the use of ionospheric mirrors), and the production of artificial weather all are a part of an integrated set of technologies which can provide substantial increase in US, or degraded capability in an adversary, to achieve global awareness, reach, and power. Weather modification will be a part of 2025 and is an area in which the US must invest if only to be able to counter adversaries seeking such a capability."
-- Lt. General Jay W. Kelley, USAF
http://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/usaf/2025/es/e-s.htm#CHAPTER9_6_1

"Considers HAARP... by virtue of its far-reaching impact on the environment to be a global concern and calls for its legal, ecological and ethical implications to be examined by an international independent body...; [the Committee] regrets the repeated refusal of the United States Administration... to give evidence to the public hearing ...into the environmental and public risks [of] the HAARP program." (European Parliament, Committee on Foreign Affairs, Security and Defense Policy, Brussels, doc. no. A4-0005/99, 14 January 1999)."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20051127&arti cleId=1336

A history of weather modification programs:
http://www.rbs2.com/w2.htm

A history of litigation regarding cloud seeding and weather modification:
http://www.rbs2.com/weather.pdf

Google provided teasing tidbits like this as well:

"Counterforce Weather Control

This paper included in Volume II

NOTE: This paper is classified. Personnel with appropriate clearances may request copies by contacting Col Charles G. "Snip" White, (AU/RCO)."
(hyperlink removed for obvious reasons)

Yes folks, there is definitely something going on up there. We can chuckle, we can speculate, but if piles and piles of information is available about legitimate ideas and applications, military and otherwise, well, I think you get the picture. It is not that far out to ask some questions.

Personally I believe Chemtrails are not sprayed in the sky to change weather patterns. They are to stop the Ozone Layer from depleting further.

I've noticed living in Beaverton that Chemtrails are formed over Portland and might mean, major cities are causing the depletion more than rural areas.

I believe Chemtrails are a high guarded secret, because the truth about our planets true condition might cause world panic and hurt the nations economy. Money makes the world go round.

Craig, great points. I believe there are a scattered group of government agencies and private corporations, all trying to emulate and distort nature. We have been at this game for a long time. Furthermore, for centuries, whenever science has offered us anything, it has been cloaked in secrecy, attacked by skeptics, or exploited by industry. These days, it is usually all three.

Transparency is the only way to run a Democracy. It has risks, but the rewards far outweigh any of those potentialities. Fear of a negative mass reaction is not a valid reason to keep the truth from any group of citizens. Most of our lives are full of short periods of joy or horror, and we can handle virtually any amount of either with grace and some time.

The dangerous part is that the already sinister "Daddy and Mommy will keep you safe" kind of Cold War role -- of Capitol Hill, the Pentagon and it's cozy nuclear family of contractors, the three-ring three-letter circus of agencies, etc. -- long ago expanded to mammoth proportions. The public condescension toward the land and the people is combined with massive amounts of money and the covert ideas of an insular few. Some of these folks do not have our interests in mind.

Irrigation was once an ancient pipe dream, and ought to be a lesson about man changing nature with his imagination. Sure, in the short term, a great deal of things seem to be science fiction. In the long run, a browse through the pulp prophets of a half century ago easily shows how correct some authors were at painting a future we call now. With the past as a guide, it is never foolish to assume that some folks are bent on applying technologies to play, and if successful, be God, to one extent or another.

and you really think the govt can keep a secret?

You're kidding, right Okie? You can't really be that dumb.

Question: How does the government keep control over classified information with personnel keeping quiet?

Answer: Mostly with threats & intimidation, against you or family members. Destroying your identity. Destroying your past by erasing paper work of your past jobs. Lose all your government job retirement benefits on top of losing your current government job.

Question: How does the government control the media?

Answer: The media needs a working relationship with our government. The networks need their correspondences to have access at government press conferences. How would it look if abc News was unable to cover the President on "World News Tonight" simply because it received leaked photos that were restricted and broadcast them.

Or better yet, Peter Jennings TV Special investigation on UFO's a few years ago. How about if Peter decided to go with what abc News did uncover, instead of folding as they ended up doing? Would abc News still be in the News business? Was it worth it? One TV Special?

little, thanks for the clearification.

nwokie, I take it the c130 wasn't pressurized where the pee funnel was.

craig, so, do you think UFOs have visited this planet?

Yes!

Where do you think Craig came from?

Deane: You can knock UFO's but after most people witness a sighting, they change their minds.

Actually Craig, I pretty much believe in them, so I'm not knocking them. I suspect our government knows more than they are telling.

I suppose the other side of the argument is that our government has never been able to keep any secrets, so how could they keep this one.

I think UFOs (aka extraterrestrial spacecraft) exist, but at this point there isn't enough evidence that they've visited this planet. "Eyewitnesses" aren't enough for me. Actual compelling physical evidence (like a phaser ) is what I want to exam. (actually, I be pleased with alien poop, spacecraft paint flakes, and other little pieces of material that clearly points to extraterrestrial origin.} Save your videotapes for the less skeptical!

If someone was putting something in the air, any good scientist, with a decent lab could detect it. So your saying nearly all chemical scientists are in on the plot?

I've heard of some far out plots, but this has to be the most preposterous.

"I've heard of some far out plots, but this has to be the most preposterous."

Nope, vice-president Dick Cheney leads in the most preposterous plots category, just ahead of our president.

Ok, ill tell you the truth, they spray a chemical that makes you vote Republican, and then forget it.

So unless you want to vote republican, stay away from ballots.

"our government has never been able to keep any secrets, so how could they keep this one?"

Whenever the government gets wind of any crash site or evidence in the public's hands, they confiscate it fast and then clean up the area crash sites. There have been people who have had evidence but it's been quickly taken when they start talking about it to friends and such. They're also told to keep quiet about it or else!

I know most of you won't believe UFO's are real until abc News, CBS News, CNN News, Fox News & NBC News announce it during their prime time news. It'll never happen, until the government says so. "And that's the way it is."

"So you're saying nearly all chemical scientists are in on the plot."

No! Before any scientist can announce anything, it has to be cleared by their superiors. If they don't follow the rules they can loose their grants (government). You'd be out on your ear so fast, jeopardizing other scientists grants. Now you've lost your job and no one will hire you in the club anyone. Is this all worth throwing your life away??

There is no such thing as a UFO. There can't be, because once you have identified it as unidentified, it's no longer unidentified.

So there!

Great Point! The government uses this when answering questions. They've identified them so YES there are no UFO's. They have a working relationship with them.

Although it is probably a happy coincidence, the evidence is building that our dear pal Craig has been giving us gorgeous weather. After a rain filled morning, Mr. Adams gave us all another sunny Saturday afternoon. Since the natives once danced for rain in other parts of the country, and it worked, perhaps the secret here is dancing for sun. Of course, he had to close his show with Chi Coltrane's "Thunder and Lightning!" I bet we get a great sunset too. Thanks Craig!

I think being skeptical is healthy. When the lines between industries and countries are blurred, bad things can happen. It is not a well-planned conspiracy, it is simply the lazy and dangerous way folks do business these days.

Airbus is a multi-national corporation almost wholly owned over the years by the governments of France, Spain, Great Britain and Germany. Air France is obviously owned by, drum roll please, France. Do you remember the A320 crash at the airshow on June 26, 1988?

The crew was charged with manslaughter when the computer took control and planted the jet in a forest at the end of the runway. After grinding to a stop, it burst into flames and killed three people.

http://www.airdisaster.com/investigations/af296/af296.shtml
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880626-0

Is it any surprise that not a rivet was touched by any outside investigating body? Or that absolutely no evidence at all remained at the site within days -- even the trees? Is it any surprise that virtually every member of the industry still has an opinion about it almost 20 years later? Of course not, because that is the world we live in today.

little sez: "I think being skeptical is healthy."

I am.

Aircraft accidents are investigated by the equivelant of the jost countries FAA, there is no outside body to investigate. In the US sometimes the FBI might be called in, but thats rare.
The article doesnt say what the crew was convicted of, just manslaughter, could be they didnt complete a required checklist, or were flying too low etc.
With the french you can never tell, sometime ago, a french intel officer blew up a greenpeace ship (The French arent all bad), and they convicted him, and sentenced him to a south pacific resort for punishment.

Often, especially in the case of a big disaster, foreign countries ask our NTSB to investigate, so check your facts. This was a new fly-by-wire design that failed catastrophically and they had to cover their asses or lose business. The Swiss had to uncover the switcheroo on the data recorders, or that bit of truth would have never surfaced. It is simply evidence that a real crash with millions of witnesses on television can still be swept under the rug with brazen zest.

I think the pilot has to assume some responsibility here . . . this was an experience French pilot flying over an airfield in France. He ought to know that it takes more than a "few seconds" for a jet engine to spool up (regardless if the pilot or the computer is flying the plane) and should have been concerned when it didn't long before the end of the runway.

But that data box switcheroo thing is really bizarre.

No, I was right, there is no international body that governs air disasters, if a country feels its own investivigative resources arent sufficient, they are free to call on anothe country for help. And the US NTSB is glad to help, as occassionallly are those of the European union or Russia.

In this case, France used its own NTSB, the US doesnt call upon France or Britan to conduct investigations in the US, so why should France.

.

Remember Pan Am Flight 103? It blew up and crashed in Scotland. As an international flight, it was investigated by an international coalition of transportation and law enforcement experts. It took years to sort out and without such manpower would have been almost impossible. The only time you ever see unilateral investigation of an international air disaster is if there is something to hide.

They're spraying tonight towards the coast out around Bethany moving closer to Beaverton now.

The Eastside has been active since I saw the first one around 4 pm. The clear blue sky is now patchy for miles. Real "contrails" do not linger, hang out and turn into much bigger clouds. They also rarely begin and end without obvious changes in altitude, so if it looks like more than a coincidence, it is more than a coincidence.

How long has this suspected activity been going on?

early 70's?

I'm asking because I once watched a trail dissipate completely as a kid. Took a long time...

Littlesongs: Yes! I saw one at around 3:30pm but I don't post on pdxradio for just one Chemtrail. I waited. After seeing four, I said well that's it.

One thing I saw today that I've never seen before. The Chemclouds that were made earlier, ending into blue sky, I saw a new Chemtrail being added on, in the blue part of the sky like they're weaving a blanket!

KSKD: I don't know how long this has been going on for sure. Some say the 80's, some say the 70's.

The latest about Chemtrails in the news. They're talked about aways down in the article:

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=23260

Missing, oh yeah, laying on my back and watching the B-52s, 707s and what have you was one of my favorite sunny day activities as a kid. Each engine would make a trail, and sometimes, just by looking, you could tell what the model the plane was from tens of thousands of feet below. I remember them smudging and disappearing too. I think that is why, like Craig, I wonder why they are larger, less defined, refract light differently and leave effects that last for hours and hours, or even increase in size.

The beginnings in America go back pretty far -- from my earlier post -- "One of the pillars of U.S. science, mathematician and computer wizard John von Neumann, started working on weather modification right after World War II. In the late 1940s, he convinced the Defense Dept. to invest in research that he hoped could be used to vanquish Communism by causing droughts and devastating crops in the Soviet Union."

Since the U.N. banned the practice by the militaries of the world in a treaty, I am guessing that private interests were "created" to do domestic work since the middle of the 1970s. How widespread that was initially, I do not know, but I did start to notice something different up there locally pretty often in the 1990s. Before that, most of what I saw seemed to be just "contrails" -- unless I was out in the wilderness, but we have all seen stuff out there that would make a thread by itself.

Sure, it could simply be a private cloud seeding project. Then again, why isn't anyone taking credit for being such generous custodians and benefactors of our weather? Why isn't our State Government hailing -- pardon the pun -- the effort? I'd bet a cheeseburger that a few folks in McMinnville know what the scoop is, but we'll just leave that alone.

Also, not to cry conspiracy, but who else has noticed that when large political events, or protests are scheduled, we get the business? For instance, the morning of John Kerry's stump, or more recently, the anniversary of this wretched war, our skies were full of stripes. I did not think too much of it, but it did make me wonder.

Craig, when did you first notice the changes?

By the way, anyone curious if a jet is a commercial airliner and leaving a "contrail" can simply use a scanner and match the bird with the radio. This is all controlled airspace, so if they aren't in touch with Portland or Seattle, well, that aint packages and people.

I first noticed the differents after listening to "Coast To Coast AM" explain what supposedly was going on. That's when I started to look for Chemtrails myself. Up to that point I wasn't paying much attention to the sky, like most of you. I reflected back to watching jet trails in the past.

Jets would fly over and the contrail would dissipate into blue sky after a bit of time. They never became a cloud layer, which is now most common.

I also remember when jets use to cross the skies in mostly groups of two, never 4, 5 or 6 at a time. That's the other sign, if you see one, you'll most likely see more. Then there are days that pass when you don't see any jets at all. It's as if this was a Designated Spray Day.

ahem, up by that air force base by Tacoma, the "chem trails" are brown.

ooohhhhhh, the govt is mixing up a more toxic batch of spray up there.









(spoiler alert! -- unlike commercial airliners, jet engines on military aircraft are major polluters)

Few folks still build planes in our nation, so many of the aircraft are related and some of the engines appear in very similar versions on both civilian and military aircraft. Climb out smoke at 1,500 feet leaving McChord fully loaded with the throttles jammed against the wall is much different than an engine trolling along in nice thin air at cruising altitude.

Some planes are exceptions though, and I can definitely understand looking up and wondering what sort of gravy is dripping off the belly of a C-5 or questioning what sort of evil is being belched from those turbofans. That bird is a truck, but really, outside of girth, it is not all that dissimilar from any other jet.

Virtually everything civilian runs on Jet A which is almost identical to JP-8 in the Air Force. Jet B is similar to JP-4, but neither fuel is used much at all anymore, unless it is frigid. The primary civilian and military fuels are far too similar to make that much of a difference at altitude, much less something visible from the ground.

All jet engines are major polluters. The color of the tail doesn't matter. A pilot with a tie is every bit as dirty as a pilot with a helmet. Flying is an incredibly filthy business -- dip in Blue Lake anyone? If it weren't so doggone quick, and sometimes breathtaking, I think we would still be watching the gorgeous scenery from the rails. Now, there's a really filthy and fun ride.

Chickenjuggler, I reread the thread and nobody addressed your question. I just took a quick Google reading of 'Chemtrails Australia' and came up 89,500 pages. This is a very big deal in Oceania.

well you know, commercial jet engines are designed to be effiencent and QUIET, often at a cost of power! Whereas military aircrafts usually are spec'd for power hence more smoke. then of course there's the beautiful sr-71 blackbird that leaked more fuel and grease than an entire airline's fleet of Constellations!

(I know, I know, its tough to build a fuel tank that can withstand the heat and expansion at mach whatever and still hold fuel at 70 degrees too, but its quite a scene to see ground crews run up to a blackbird taxing to its hanger with buckets.)

(Yeah, I know, Clinton killed the Blackbird.)

oh, I forgot my point! What I was gonna say is the smoke at McChord sort of reminds me of the 707's I saw everyday that flew out of Seattle in the early 60's when I was just a lad. Commerical planes just don't pollute visably like they used to. And damn quieter too!

Yes, the Blackbird leaked so bad when it was cold that it could not sit, but was fueled and cleared immediately for takeoff. Majestic bird though, in a really odd way. B-1 was Reagan's dumb move, but yes, Bill screwed up this one.

This fine manned program worked and has been replaced with unreliable drones. Want a little fright? Look at new drone regulations and how they have expanded and how they want to expand even more into civilian airspace. Then, look at the success rate for unmanned missions and buy a good helmet.

I also miss the way that the 707 affected my jaw, sternum and fingertips when I was a kid. Truly the Harley Davidson of commercial airliners. Really, I miss the romance of flying. In the days before it was half schoolbus and half jail. Remember the basket of fried chicken? Remember real metal spoons? Remember friendly? Ah, glory days.

I totally agree that while still as messy as any modern machine, most aircraft are quieter, more efficient and cleaner. This makes the increase in trails and trails that do not correspond to exhaust all the more puzzling.

Man! They're flying all over the sky today. Must have seen 10 or more Chemtrails. Note the thin clouds which were formed from earlier Chemtrails.

Modern jet engines are more efficient, therefore buring a higher percentage of the fuel, and tend to run hotter, creating a larger exhaust trail, which is water vapor that has condensed.

Has nothing to do with chemicals. The older F4's had very dirty engines, and were upgraded to "smokeless" but still had the vapor trails.

Nwokie: Why is it on one clear day I will see no jet trails. Then on the next clear day like today I see over 10 jet trails? Why do these trails look like they are weaving a rug in the sky?

Because the altitude that the temperature zone changes. There has to be enough water vapor in the air, to cause the condensation.

Occassionally, there will be a "dirty" engine, or the pilot has to dump fule for an emergency. But most of the trail you see, is nothing but water vapor.

heres some specific info
http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/wxwise/class/contrail.html

Nwokie: Ok, lets just play along and say your're right.

What are all these jets doing up in the sky? What happened today?

Which air base are they coming from?

Why do they fly like this only in the Springtime?

Does anyone live close to an air base that can confirm a large fleet of jets took off today?

It could be the guard doing training exercises, since the conditions were right for contrails, you may be seeing a lot of aircraft you dont normally see.

PDX may have been backed up, and they were just flying around waiting their turn to land.

If that's the case, they've been flying around all afternoon at least. Is there anyway we can check to see if the Oregon/Washington National Guards are doing exercises today?

Craig, it is easy with a scanner. All private and commercial jet flights -- at the height that would make contrails -- have to stay in touch with Seattle Center. Aircraft approaching and departing Portland can all be heard talking to our local controllers. By listening to just a couple of frequencies, one can easily determine what is up there by noticing who isn't talking.

The PANG base has been active most of the weekend, but I doubt that they linger overhead. As a rule, for safety and noise reasons, most of their exercises are not done over urban areas.

These would be military jets and I don't think we could listen in on those. Where is the PANG base? What does PANG mean?

We may find some questions answered right here at home. As was noted earlier, this has been going on for quite some time:

"Analysis of four years of attempts to increase precipitation by cloud seeding in tri-county area, Oregon, 1950-1954"

https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/dspace/handle/1957/4081

"Around 1970, however, with opponents of the Vietnam war attacking anything that smelled of militarism, the NSF backed out of funding work with overt military connections. The RAND group had to scramble to find support elsewhere. They turned to the Advanced Research Projects Agency of the Department of Defense. ARPA was meanwhile on the lookout for computing projects that could justify the funds it had lavished on its ILLIAC supercomputer. The menace of Soviet climate engineering schemes gave a plausible rationale. ARPA awarded the project millions of dollars, a secret classification, and a code name, NILE BLUE. The money supported a variety of large-scale computer studies and even some work on ancient climates. Nothing of obvious military significance turned up, but the program's results proved useful for other climate scientists. After a few years the program was demilitarized. The NSF took over funding as work with the RAND model migrated to the University of Oregon."

http://www.aip.org/history/climate/RainMake.htm

"TRC North American Weather Consultants has conducted more than 200 weather modification projects to augment normal snow or rainfall since 1950. Using radar and aircraft sensors to track atmospheric changes, TRC works to refill reservoirs and generate snow for ski resorts. The weather modification company also drops dry ice to dissipate fog over busy airports.

Based in Salt Lake City, Utah, TRC claims that precipitation increases from its weather modification programs range from 10 to 15 percent over normal rainfall in the wintertime northern hemisphere areas to as much as 25 percent in tropical regions. A partial listing of the company's cloud seeding operations conducted through 1994 includes repeated application of silver iodide to rainclouds over Utah, California, Wyoming, Idaho, Colorado, Texas, Georgia, Oregon, Washington state, Iowa and British Columbia."

http://www.netowne.com/environmental/contrails/willthomas/index.htm

"Over the past forty years, the Cloud and Aerosol Research Group (CARG) has written a number of Research Reports, which describe various aspects of its research in more detail than is normally possible in formal publications."

http://cargsun2.atmos.washington.edu/sys/Online-reports.html

This is just the top of the pile. I have found a ton of different documents and studies while looking for legitimate cloud seeding projects in our region.

Cloud seeding, and aircraft contrails have nothing to do with each other.

When they seed clouds, they use a wide area sprayer, the results looks nothing like a contrail.

People been trying to change the weather pretty much forever, thats why indians had "Rain" dances.

Portland Air National Guard = PANG. Sorry I got all alphabet soup and obscure.

On the scanner -- like seeing if the bosses car is in the lot when you pull in late -- it is what is not there that tells you volumes. If it is a legitimate airliner, they will be in touch, if it is military, they will not be in touch. However, a commercial flight might be warned of their presence like any other traffic in the area.

I know that one could eavesdrop on our men and women in uniform, but I believe that most of these jets are flown by private companies. If they are, they would have to check in with the civilian controllers like any other non-military aircraft.

Perhaps we ought to set something up and monitor an afternoon. We might find out more about what is going on -- one way or the other.

Littlesong: Yes! Monitoring might be effective but if they're doing what I think, which has something to do with the Ozone Depletion, they won't be talking on any channel we can hear. This Is Top Secret Stuff they're doing!

Bottom line: We don't need Rain, we need Ozone.

Have you noticed in the past years that the Sun seems to be more intense and brighter? I think it's part of the ozone depletion problem.

We were able to keep the manhattan project secret in WWII, because it awas very compartmentalized, only a handfull knew the true object of the project.

To do this chemtrail thing hundreds of people would know what was going on, everyone from the pilots to the crew chiefs and the people loading the chemicals in the tanks.

Heck the govt cant even hold a few slimeballs in an out of the way place, without it being on CNN.

I think we all have our own conspiracy theory, mine is that Hitler made it out of that bunker alive.

It would easy to keep this kind of government secret.

For a project this size, they must have some special Black Project unit. All must sign papers and swear to secrecy. If you blow your mouth off. You jeopardize your career. The government can also pull your citizenship. Make life real hard.

Even if you spill your guts, who would listen? Would you go to the networks or the print media? They won't touch a story like this. Why? Because the media needs to work with the government at all times. The government could put a networks coverage of all government events. Without coverage of the government, where would a national network be? The cost is to high and the government knows this.

If you went to the independent media, you might get some notoriety locally for a day or two but outside the main media, you would be written off as a crackpot or a disgruntled employee.

When was the last time you read, heard or saw a story about a current government black project outed?

I believe the people that work for the government and know what's really going on, also know a story like this wouldn't fly. You would be out on your ear, ruined, and for what?

We need to put Special Agents Scully and Maulder on this pronto!

Current black project outed? How about the CIA's detainment facilities all over europe.


The Aurora project, theres enough info on that in various aviation magazines to choke the perverbial horse.

and theres another reason why theres high aircraft activity on some days and not others, the upper wind streams shift, and airliners take advantage of the best winds for fuel economy. Some days its best to fly east of Portland, and others along the coast, for safety reasons, they dont like to fly out over the ocean, if they can avoid it.