http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110009770

He's trying to block Bush's nominee for U.S. ambassador to Belgium.

The reason: the nominee donated $50,000 to Swift Boat Veterans For Truth. This was a group that opposed John Kerry for President.

John Kerry is vindictive and petty. He should get over the fact he lost the 2004 presidential election and move on.

Yeah!

More power to him!

Trying to manupulate public opinion with lies and propaganda does have it's consequenses!

I can tell you, had this kind of thing been done to me, I would totally do exactly the same thing. Most people, with even a small amount of self-respect would.

heh.

Name one lie the campaign against Kerry used.
Kerry lied about being in cambodia on Christmas Eve. He lied when he said all Americans serving in Vietnam were war criminals. He lied about throwing away his medals etc. He also has lied about releasing all of his military records, like the President did.

Not gonna go there.

The whole swiftboat thing has been hashed out completely. They do not have the high ground. It was an organized smear, end of story.

I'll take Deane's approach, respond briefly to this, then continue to focus on people and issues that actually are gonna matter.

Speaking of lies:

Know what a Lie Clock is?


A man died and went to heaven. As he stood in front of St. Peter at the Pearly Gates, he saw a huge wall of clocks behind him.
He asked, "What are all those clocks?"

St. Peter answered, "Those are Lie-Clocks. Everyone on Earth has a Lie-Clock. Every time you lie, the hands on your clock will move."

"Oh," said the man, "whose clock is that?"

"That's Mother Teresa's. The hands have never moved, indicating that she never told a lie."

"Incredible," said the man. "And whose clock is that one?"

St. Peter responded, "That's Abraham Lincoln's clock. The hands have moved twice, telling us that Abe told only two lies in his entire Life."

"Where's John Kerry's clock?" asked the man.

"John Kerry's clock is in Jesus' office. He's using it as a ceiling fan."

Edit add:
Now that's funny I don't care who you are!

Nwokie writes:
He lied when he said all Americans serving in Vietnam were war criminals.

Kerry never said it. See, you've been listening to the Swift Boat Liars too much.

He did say that the people who put American soldiers in situations to commit war crimes were war criminals:

http://hnn.us/articles/3552.html

Not the same thing as calling all American solders "war criminals," I'm afraid.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, DD. I'm going to email Kerry now and show my support for what he's doing. I don't want Kerry to run for president again but it's time for some payback against these sleazebags. Even John McCain thought they were sleazebags and said so.

Andrew

Jeez, this is nothing new or unprecedented:

http://www-tech.mit.edu/V117/N27/weld.27w.html

Welcome to Congressional politics, DD.

At the end of his statement to congress, he made a comment that certain actions were war crimes, then said we all did them. he didnt say some did them, he said we all.

he also repeated the lies the so called members of his "Winter Commission" said.

Proof?

Yeah!

Sam Fox, the nominee, has done nothing illegal or unethical. His donation to the Swift Boat vets has nothing to do with his qualification to be an ambassador.

It's wrong to use political retribution to block a nomination.

John Kerry (to any Republican Nominee): "Are you now or ever been a supporter of Swift Boat Vets for Truth?" Please answer the question!"

Sounds like McCarthyism.

I once again refer you to the link I posted above.

You can't take politics out of the equation whenever you feel like it. The Swift Boat attacks were a political smear based on edited snippets of truth, and in fact were untrue based on the truths omitted from the Swift Boater's arguments. If you are condemning the blocking of the nomination for political reasons, then you must also condemn Fox's support of a politically motivated smear campaign.

Did the Swift Boat Vets engage in a smear campaign? That is a matter of opinion. I agree with Missing kskd that we shouldn't rehash that.

Should a Democratic nominee be blocked because he donated to money to moveon.org?

President Bush critics said he went AWOH during his national guard service in 2004. Edselehr would you call that a lie and a smear?

DD writes:
It's wrong to use political retribution to block a nomination.

LOL!!!! Where have you been since 1995? Pretty quiet on the subject I'd say, when the Republicans did it repeatedly. It's just politics, dude. Both sides do it. To Kerry I saw: more power to you on this one!!!

Did the Swift Boat Vets engage in a smear campaign? That is a matter of opinion.

Did Joe McCarthy engage in a smear campaign? That's a matter of opinion, too, I guess.

Andrew

Andrew, Is the allegation Bush went AWOL during his national guard service true? Of course you believe it.

I understand why you believe the Swiftboat vets smeared John Kerry, because you wanted Kerry to be president.

DD writes:
Andrew, Is the allegation Bush went AWOL during his national guard service true? Of course you believe it.

Yes, I believe the story is probably true. For one, no one from the White House has ever denied it. During the 2004 campaign, a reward was offered for anyone from Bush's unit in Alabama who could say they saw him there; no one ever claimed it.

I understand why you believe the Swiftboat vets smeared John Kerry, because you wanted Kerry to be president.

Er, no, I believe it was a smear because so much of what they said was false. My favorite is the guy (Thurlow) who claimed that Kerry's boat wasn't even under fire the day for which Kerry was later awarded a Bronze Star. Only problem is, Thurlow got a citation that day too for being UNDER FIRE in the same incident! The Washington Post dug that one up pretty quickly and printed the text of Thurlow's. Oops. Sloppy.

Yes, of course it was a smear! Even John McCain thought so. Or was McCain wrong about it too?

Andrew

"My favorite is the guy (Thurlow) who claimed that Kerry's boat wasn't even under fire the day for which Kerry was later awarded a Bronze Star. Only problem is, Thurlow got a citation that day too for being UNDER FIRE in the same incident!"

Wow! Man, I can't wait until the Swift Boat movie comes out. You know its going to happen.

"President Bush critics said he went AWOH during his national guard service in 2004. Edselehr would you call that a lie and a smear?"

Bush would call it a smear. And Bush would, and has, acted politically against those who spoke against him in such fashion during the election. It's the nature of the beast - a politics thing, not just a Kerry thing.

I think the hearing was really less about John Kerry seeking revenge, but instead, some transparency in all matters going forward. This is where our Congress gets to show some muscle and perhaps build a bipartisan reputation for well-tuned bullshit detectors.

There will be no justice for the smear, so to call it some sort of vigilante witch-hunt is utter keester-berries. The ads infuriated many vets, including Republicans.

By calling Sam Fox out for not doing his homework on his donations, I believe Barak Obama may have gained more than Kerry:

"The swift boat ads were of a different degree, even in the ugly arena of politics. They were extraordinarily well publicized... there was essentially a fraud being perpetrated on the American people. It had a profound impact on the election... To say that you gave because it's ugly out there and somebody asked you to give. I mean, it sounds to me like you were aware of it -- that this was not the best of political practices -- and you thought it was OK to go ahead and contribute to that," said Obama. "By the time you contributed, it was pretty widely noted -- it would have been hard for you to miss the fact that there was something particularly nasty and insidious about these ads. It had been well publicized at this point... I don't think you necessarily crafted the message but you certainly knew at that point what the message was."

I think Obama was on target and showed balls. Of course, the terrorist bananas had to come out today and further marginalize this story.

Sam Fox made the Mother Jones top 400 campaign contributors in 2001:
http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/mojo_400/23_fox.html

=========================================

I thought this was all hashed out a few years ago. In case you missed it, here is one of the many articles that examined the shrub and his service before a questionable November:

"In 2000, a group of veterans offered a $3,500 reward for anyone who could confirm Bush's Alabama Guard service. Of the estimated 600 to 700 Guardsmen who were in Bush's unit, not a single person came forward."
http://dir.salon.com/story/news/feature/2004/02/05/national_guard/index.html

==========================================

The shrub has hid behind lies and smears before, and every single time, claimed innocence:

"In the 2000 South Carolina Republican primary, Bush attended a rally during which the chairman of a Vietnam and Gulf War veterans group accused McCain, a prisoner of war for six years, of betraying veterans on health issues such as Agent Orange and Gulf War syndrome.

"I don't know if you can understand this, George, but that really hurts. You should be ashamed," McCain told Bush at a televised debate.

Bush replied: "I believe you served our country nobly. I've said it over and over again. That man wasn't speaking for me."
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/08/24/MNGF78DCN01.DTL&type= printable

No, you lied, he was speaking for you, around you, below you and above you. The roaring manure fan that blows behind your head knows no boundary too indecent to cross. Drink up booboo, it's almost bedtime.

Once again DD's is FAUXNews informed.

Trixter, you need to get new material.

It works for me!

Missing kskd and andrew, do you think Sam Fox should wear a scarlet letter S for Swiftboater?

Not that you asked me, but yes, on a nice preppy crew-neck sweater with a pink polo shirt underneath with the collar up. And plaid golf pants. Perfect!

No, I don't think he should be forced to actually wear the letter "S" no. I do think what Kerry is doing to him is completely justified. It's just politics. Don't act shocked when group smears a guy that he doesn't take retribution against one of the group's donors when given the opportunity. For some reason, I'll bet you haven't shed any tears when Democrats have been so punished by Republicans in the political arena in the same way.

Andrew

"And plaid golf pants. Perfect!" LMAO!

What makes me most pissed off is that this fellow has, like a big dirty Christmas club, purchased a nomination to be ambassador to Belgium. Let's see, what goes on there, well, it is the headquarters of NATO. It is also central to the affairs of the European Union. Too bad he has no military experience, or years as an international envoy, or really anything to speak of, beyond the usual businessman ass sniffing games.

He also can't speak enough French to get a taxi or a whore. In fact, without his money, his English might be questionable. Oh, by the way, Belgium also hosts a good chunk of the world market of both illegal and legal weapons? Hmmm. I guess we wouldn't want an ambassador with any real experience to work with our spies while they watch the terrorists shopping at the bomb market.

Swift Boats or not, this is another stinky turd from the evil empire. Yes, these morons are giving another job to another pal who has no goddamn clue about what his position might require. Cronies, nothing but damn cronies. Who needs a resume when you look so good on your knees with your wallet open?

"... a reputation as one of the nation's most reliable GOP fundraisers."
-- St. Louis Post-Dispatch

"Fox brought in heaps of cash for George Bush’s presidential campaigns."
-- Slate Magazine

"I call him Foxie. Foxie, thanks for your friendship."
-- George Bush (at a $2.8 million fundraiser led by Fox)

Once again 44DD's I will when you do...

"Andrew, Is the allegation Bush went AWOL during his national guard service true? Of course you believe it."

According to now-declassified documents on Bush and his National Guard service in Alabama, one can deduct that he indeed DID go AWOL.

Wow Brianl, maybe if you pass that information along to CBS, Dan Rather can get his job back.

No one paid any attention to whether Rather's story was in fact true or not. The phoney documents were just one source for it. Rather could have gone with the story without the documents, except it was less solid and dramatic.

It is quite interesting that the secretary who would have typed those documents claimed that they were forgeries (because didn't type them), yet she claimed that the information in them was completely accurate. Again, no one cared.

Andrew

Brianl.....
DJ hates facts....

No, Lt Bush was never AWOL, for several reasons.
And I server 25 years, 10 as an advisor to Guard and Reserve units.

First, the term AWOL, is a specified article in the UCMJ, and is only applicable to Active duty personel, or Guard/reservists on Active duty type orders.

Additionally, Guard/reservisits commit to a specific number of years, and they agree to complete that many "good" years, a good year is one in which the person receives 50 points. ANd they give you 15, so you only have to earn 35 points. You get points in lots of ways, the most common, what is called the weekend drill, which is usually 4 Unit Training Asemblies, for which you get 1 point and 1 days pay per UTA. You do 2 4 hr UTA's per day. You also get points for ADt training session, which is normally called summer camp, usually 15 days, and 1 point with 1 days pay per day. You also get points for correspondence courses, and several different kinds of IDT, individual training sessions.

Lt Bush in his last year completed his "Summer camp" and enough IDT sessions to get his 50 point total, which made it a good year, that was the minimum required of him. During that time, I knew many guardsmen/reservisits that did the same thing, and the Army/AF was glad, it saved them money they needed to train people that were staying for a carreer and to train them on the next generation of weapons systems the active duty was passing down to them.

What people should be outraged about, is how the Carter administration treated many outstanding officers that served in Vietnam, in many cases several tours, Carters downsized military had no place for them, so they were either shown the door, or had their commission revoked and became enlisted men. In my last assignment I had 2 former Green Beret Captains, serving as NCO's because of this. They were good NCO's and had been better officers.

And that means what exactly?

It means Lt Bush was never AWOL, it means he completed his commitment to the Texas national guard.
However Kewrry never completed his, he was required to register as a member of the non active reserves, and never did.

You will notice, in the few military records he has released, there is a note that says a board of officers meet to upgrade his discharge, which means he did not initially receive an honorable discharge.

And that means?

Where are you going with this? What are you trying to support exactly?

I believe that this thread was started to poke at the truth with a hot stick. It has only served to point out that any one of us could purchase a seat at the big table. There is no question that connections in either business or fund raising have let to the appointments of many members of the cabinet and our diplomatic corps.

Some of the history written after installing these unprepared, unqualified and untested folks has been unbelievable. In just one day, the results of their bumbling, stumbling and grumbling became horrific tragedies in New York, just outside of Pittsburgh, and the Pentagon.

It would include many agencies ignoring years of criminal neglect and scientific alarm in the Mississippi Delta. Bad policy was reinforced and forever punctuated by running a photo-op evacuation exercise called Pam, then ignoring New Orleans and the Gulf Coast in their darkest hours when Katrina, a real hurricane, came ashore.

Cronyism is far more dangerous than a unified plot. One quick Google of many others reveals insider no-bid contracts, unchecked financial waste and widespread corruption. Instead of some cinema-worthy secret society, with a well-plotted web of influence that is tangled through every facet of our lives, we have cronies. Each greedy idiot has an agenda, so you backtrack to find it. Our FEMA was run by an observer of horses, so no malice there, he is just vain and stupid. He was only a murderer by passivity. Get into the less simple minds still running around and you could stop sleeping so well at night.

So, this Sam Fox -- which to this radio ear sounds like a pseudonym based on an Air Force alphabet -- could turn out to be another loaded crap shoot with poorly weighted dice. Is he a simpleton who likes pretty things, like Michael Brown? Is he an insider creating policy for an industry, like Condoleezza Rice? Could he be blessed with a tyrant streak, like Donald Rumsfeld? Does he simply want his former co-workers to get rich, like Dick Cheney?

Homework, I do not care what side you are on, homework is everything. We are all open to facts. Whether the shrub did this or that or whether Kerry did this or that is irrelevant to this nomination. The biggest reason to dislike Mr. Fox is simply that he is not qualified to serve. This is cronyism, please, do not miss the meat, even when the buns are so large.

Missing kskd: "And that means what exactly?"

Bush wasn't AWOL during his national Guard service as Andrew stated.

Isn't it surprising that when a reward was offered for anyone who could claim to have seen Bush at his Alabama National Guard service that NO ONE came forward? Wouldn't any Republican jump at the chance to collect Democratic money and prove them wrong at the same time?

Andrew

No, I'm asking for the greater point.

Our Resident President is the worst one ever. Saw a great bumper sticker today: "Bush makes me miss Nixon!"

So, is this all about him winning over Kerry because he is better? More well connected? Where is this largely useless conversation going?

Why does no one remember Lt Bush in Ala, I will tell you.

This was over 30 years ago, he was doing IDT training, individual Duty training, and he only dor 5 or 6. He already had an AF sticker, so he didnt have to go through Pass and ID, so he drove to the Flight safety office, which normally has a staff of 4 or 5, but he was doing this on a weekend so there was probably only one airman or junior NCO there, and he went into an office and started filing NOTAMS, Most junior enlisteds and NCO's pay no attention to junior officers, you never know when you got a chicken sh* around. So you just stay away.

Ask yourself this, can you remember 30 years ago going to the DMV the name of the clerk that assisted you?

While we're on guard drills, today if you pull any kind of a drill, its immediatly put in the computer and your records updated, and they get a print out every year of point totals and type, didnt used to be that way.

A reservist/guardsman after 20 good years can retire, he doesnt get retired pay until 60 though.

So you usually have 20 years of what they call grey area retired. Used to be your points were kept by your unit, and if you did an off station drill, the local clerk would fill out a form, and send it through chain to guard HQ who would then send it down chain to your clerk who would make a note in your records.

There were a lot of guys and a few women, that hit 20, said I want out now, and retired, 20 or so years later went back to the office and said, I'm 60 I want my retired pay, after a review of their records, it would be determined they had 19 years and 10 months good time, sorry about that.

No pay or other benefits.

Now when you hit 20, a review is done of your records, and you are given a non recovable letter stating you got your 20.

I went through this with a lot of soldiers , helping them to prove their 20, and trying to find documentation from the 50's and 60's was a real pain. The guared and reserve from that era
did not do their paperwork a lot of times.

And that means?

I'm completely serious here. What are you trying to support with that?

Are you trying to tell others that the Resident is a good guy and that we all somehow might see it, if we buy this idea that people were wrong about his service?


Or are you just here to make sure the party line is represented?

What i'm saying is theat lt Bish ws never AWOL, either in the technical term, IE AWOL only applies to those on some type of active duty.

Or in the broader term, IE he completed what was required of him, IE earned his 35 points.

Weither he missed a drill ot two, I dont know, but that is not AWOL, that is missed a drill, which is something probably 90 % of guardsmen/Reservists do during their 6 years.

And what does that mean, in the greater overall scheme of things?

Seriously. Let's say you nailed this one. Big deal right? The Resident is still a huge ass. Why even bother with this? Why work that hard to grant this clown any deference at all? He's not earned it by any measure.

Because someone above, brought it up, you wont find any one that has spent a long time in the military saying he was AWOl, not that it matters, practially anyone that has been in the military has been AWOL at last once, and probably several times.

If you take leave, which is approved absence, most people start on monday, and end on a friday.

however most people actually leave on fri night and get back on sunday night, but on monday morning they call teh CQ, and have them sign them out, and friday night do the same thing.

So they are AWOl over the weekend, if they left teh area. I only know of one person actually being charged with it, and he was on the 1st sgts sh* list to begin with, and should have knoen better.

And I hardly ever went to Commanders calls, since I controlled the sign in rosters, it was easy and I wrote the agenda, I knew if I was needed there, technically it was AWOl, but I was never called on it. And neither was the supply sgt, or finance NCo and a few others that I let sing the list.

Ok, so really this means our Resident got started gaming the system back then and now demonstrates that with his leadership today?

I'll buy that.

Sorry, but I just don't think any of this actually matters, given the state of things right now.

Nowkie served???
Huh....

"Weither he (Bish) missed a drill ot two"?

Is NW_Okie drunk this morning?

Did Nwokie serve? I would be happy to email the moderator a copy of my AUS (Army of the United States) retirement certificate, for 25 years service.

Missing kskd, do you think you have an anger management problem? Considered counseling?

LOL!!!

Asking it on more than one thread does you no good DD. --unless it makes you feel better. If that's the case, fire away!

DD, with a few more posts like that we'll have to consider that you're doing nothing but trolling.

44DD's went missing 4 sometime because of HIS anger problem.... Or inability to get along with others.
I guess his counseling went well he has returned.....