Here's the link to a very compelling stream of the NOW program, produced by PBS.

http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/307/index.html

Essentially, the Internet is being monitored at it's choke points and that data is being archived by the government for whatever reason they choose. Accountability via the courts is non-existant.

Take a moment and watch this.

My question is this:

Can we actually move forward with our founders vision and values, or is the American experiment essentially proven a failed one?

This with Habius Corpus, Patriot Act, enabling legislation for using our military for Domestic issues, all the efforts going on to legislate morality, etc... just make me wonder seriously if we haven't really lost our national identity to fear.

We have lost our national identity to the Bush/Cheney administration, and thier corruption of power to a higher degree than ever before in this country. And yes, it's all based on fear. Fear, and greed. And they won already.

The American experiment didn't fail. Bush/Cheney grabbed the beaker and shattered it.

Guys, I don't agree with everything Mr. Bush has done, but it would take only one more 9/11 and you'd be saying Mr. Bush hadn't done ENOUGH.

Herb

I think we would all agree that all of these encroachments on our freedoms, all this rewriting of the Constitution, all the suspension of human rights, the erosion of our justice system and the ever widening reach of Big Brother is due to one tragic morning in September. With the amount of latitude this group has been given, the only question yet to be answered is when will we have all of our Bill of Rights suspended forever.

It is easy for us to forget all the details collected by independent investigators and reported by news organizations in the wake of 9/11. Much of this was swept aside and the concrete facts continue to be marginalized. We still do not know exactly what happened and perhaps we never will. It was either a colossal failure with a classic knee-jerk reaction and spin, or a collaborative effort by big money to take over the country. Right now, to many of us, it looks like a combination of both.

Any small town Fire Chief with a V.F.D. could have told you it was arson. He or she might even speculate that all you have to do is see who profited and you have your man. This is how arson often works and a good lead when investigations are made. Both this administration and the terrorists have taken full advantage of the situation, so it is pretty hard to pick out the good guys. I still think the only good guys were the firemen, police, rescuers and volunteers.

A second attack on this administration's watch would not benefit them at all, so depending on how you feel, that is not a surprise for a variety of reasons. No matter which side of the aisle you sit, you have to know that the only reason we had a 9/11 Commission was due to the overwhelming pressure of the American people. This current administration felt no need to prevent it and surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, did not want it investigated at all.

http://www.unansweredquestions.org

If wishes were horses, my horses would throw all these bums out of the saddle, we'd form a posse and find out exactly what the hell happened. As it stands, the America I love, that we all love, is in peril. We need a new sheriff in town.

No, but we might say he did all the wrong things. Like turn attention immediately away from Osama and to Iraq. Just an example.

Littlesongs, if you look at WWII and the Civil War, Habeas Corpus was suspended then, too. Heck, look what was done to the Japanese. They were placed in internment camps.

We're at war.

Herb

I'm not.

Were in a different war than the one going on in Iraq too.

The only state attacked in the 20th century was Oregon. We survived the few rounds that were lobbed at Battery Russell by submarine I-25. We were at war back in 1942, by an act of Congress.

There are no facts to support the theory that we were safer by sending thousands of our Japanese-American neighbors to camps and seizing their property. In fact, we made such a human rights blunder that both Clinton and Big Shrub made formal apologies for our actions.

As an Italian-American, I am also aware that people of my ancestry were interned, even though, like the Japanese, many fought and died to free Europe, Asia and Oceania. Suspension of Habeas Corpus did absolutely nothing to stop the war, in fact, it only made us that much more similar to Hirohito, Hitler and Stalin.

Herb writes:
Guys, I don't agree with everything Mr. Bush has done, but it would take only one more 9/11 and you'd be saying Mr. Bush hadn't done ENOUGH.


I say that NOW. If he had done his homework and read the report on Bin Laden's intent to attack in the US, 9/11 may not have happened in the first place.

I'm going to tell you something else. Bill Clinton warned that idiot Republican congress several times we had better watch our asses when it came to terrorism and HOW did they response? They tried to impeach him. Defend THAT!

"There are no facts to support the theory that we were safer by sending thousands of our Japanese-American neighbors to camps and seizing their property."

I agree. My point was that our present war hasn't reached the point of internment of American citizens yet.

Herb

A great documentary on the subject was a three part series produced and aired by the BBC called, "Power of Nightmares" that can be streamed from their site or purchased on DVD.

Actually, our citizens have been imprisoned wrongfully as a response to terrorism. Including one of our neighbors:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/29/AR2006112901179. html

Our government has also taken great liberties with the rights of citizens from countries allied to the United States. Here is what a Canadian went through due to our zeal to put heads on platters:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Yes, Herb, we have interned hundreds if not thousands of people who had little or nothing to do with terrorism. Meanwhile, the folks who paid for the attacks, helped organize Al-Qaeda and continue to fund this madness are kept safe by our bases in Saudi Arabia. Since they were all buddy buddy with this administration before the attacks, why can't we go after them now?

"we are at war"

Really?

Can someobdy please show me the declaration of war?

The closest we have right now to a war is the "war on terror" and it's more like a war on drugs than it is anything else.

KSKD, thank you so much for this link and the one on the McCain thread. Everyone should check them out and redefine "Mae West" yet again. For those who may not know, Mae West was a sweater bruising pin-up goddess, next it was the nickname of a favorite life jacket for our fighting men at sea, and now, it is the moniker for a clearing house for the very words I just typed and you just typed. Yes, we all should have a good shiver about it. I long for the simpler days when she was just a sweater girl and celluloid ingenue. We knew what a real war was in those days, but I was born in one of the bloodiest years of Vietnam, so I have no further insight.

Merkin, Missing, Warner, CJ, et al, great stuff! I am looking around and I really don't see anything that shows this is a war. A police action, a royally stupid use of our military, a gross abuse of power and a key to Armageddon for the zealous theocratic monkeys in charge? Certainly, all of that and more, but no, there is no war. That power still must be granted by Congress, well, or it was before this administration started turning the clock backwards to the Dark Ages. Perhaps they will "discover" the Magna Carta and it will blow their little minds.

I realized that the Beeb links don't give you the good stuff, so anyone interested in streaming, "The Power of Nightmares" can find it in the Internet Archive: http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares

war? I thought it was to get WMDs.

whatever. 1 year, 321 days and the lying asshole is gone.

Just where are those WMD's???

In Bin Laden's (who?) knapsack.

Herb?
DJ?
Isn't that why we are there???
WMD's???
Where is Bin Laden???
Guess he just isn't important enough to go after anymore??
I mean hell.... He WAS THE MASTER MIND BEHIND 9/11!! But not important enough to go after anymore....
MISSION ACCOMPLISHED MY ASS!

The internet belongs to the military, they invented it and built it, and most traffic flows through their switch points.

No it doesn't.

It used to long ago, but it was opened to universities and from there the general public.

Most of the key switch points are now owned by private corporations. Additionally, the original design of the Internet called for and exhibited multiple routes to various destinations.

Only when commercial interests started getting into the game, did we end up with these key choke points.

Also, most commercial entities discouraged the peer to peer nature of the Internet.

Go back through the RFC's and talk to any solid sysadmin and they will set you straight on what that all means.

Nwokie, you must have forgotten! Remember, Al Gore invented the internet!

Hey Skybill.

Produce the date, time, and venue where Al Gore claimed to have invented the Internet.

Amus, Here you go.

Straight from the lefts favorite source, CNN (Communist News Network)

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore /

It is, of course, pretty much just a standing joke as he didn't really say "I created the internet" he said; "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system."

It just got twisted around and turned into a joke.

I only cut and pasted part of the paragraph. It is 18 exchanges down from the top of the page.

It's the same kind of statement as when slick said he smoked pot, but didn't inhale!

There have been "anaconda" boxes at 'selected' ISP's for years now..nothing new.

*Waves at the Black Box.*

Excellent!

Now..
What's the difference between "Creating" and "Inventing"?

And who "twisted" it?

And, more importantly, what did he mean?

Well, creating is simply that work which brings forth something that did not exist prior.

Inventing is a creation that is unique.