how come portland have rb station sacmento san francicso have stations what yall think about that

how come portland oregon dont have rb station when is clear channel change z100 nobody even listen to that station no more switch to urban oldschool format i think people enjoy what yall think about portland swiching z100 to urban oldschool format

hallelujah holla back...

ghetto revival son.

I remember listening to DJ Fwesh on KBOO back in the day.

Still trying to figure out Djfrresh's use of the english language.

But for me personally, and I am showing my age, I would love a classic R&B station. Maybe adding some newer stuff but I would stay away from straight ahead rap.

I'm guessing Djfreesh was using some form of text messaging in shorthand.

Portland is statistically unable to support a black radio station.

Arbitron's most recent estimates of the black population in Portland is 2.9% of the the 12+ metro population. (Compare that to 10% Hispanic population) Even if the black population skews significantly younger than the overall population, you would essentially need to get every black, regardless of age, to give 100% of their listening to that black station, to achieve a 3.0 - 3.5 share.

Yes, I know that theoretically some non-blacks would listen, depending upon format and presentation, but historically, black stations have 90% or higher black composition. Facts across multiple markets, multiple years, multiple variations on format trump theory every time.

But Portland can certainly support at least one, and probably two, mainstream FM Hispanic stations (12-29 and 25-54!).

Is KXJM not a "black station" as you put it? Aren't they hip-hop and R&B? They seem to be doing just fine.

I don't view hip-hop and rap as R&B.

For more than 10 years, what used to be called Top 40 has been split, based on playlists, into either CHR(Contemporary Hit Radio)/Rhythmic or CHR/Pop. KXJM is considered CHR/Rhythmic and Z100 are considered CHR/Pop based on the music they play.

Black formats include Urban (essentially black top 40), Urban Contemporary (black AC), and a few more niched r&b, soul, etc. formats. The black/urban formats are defined by the music they play as well.

A (hopefully) relatable example would be NYC:

Z100 is CHR/Pop
WQHT (Hot) is CHR/Rhythmic
WWPR (Power) is Urban
WBLS is Urban Contemporary
WRKS is Urban Contemporary

cuz sacmento and san francicso have vibe that they dig and portland has no vibe but what yall think about that

(I think yall have been set up)

There was Classic Soul Hits on 1480 (KBMS) not too long ago (around 2003 or so...I think it might have been around the time KVAN flipped to MOL........) but it's gone belly-up in years since. (I remember thinking, upon first hearing, "Now here's my new favourite station!") In East Vancouver its signal was somewhat hard to receive during the night-time as well as sometimes during the late afternoons, but seemed to come in crystal-clear on the old Crosley. (Still is/does!)

Wish they would bring the Classic Soul format back, tho.........

Digging back in history, KQIV on 106.7 was reportedly a Soul/R&B (?) format for several years after Q4's prog-rock format was dropped......that was way before I was born, though.

My prediction is Movin will make a flip in 6 moths and change to Spanish. Heard Stacey Lynne on the air today, she sounds good but the foramt SUCKS! The music is so damn cheesy it is unlistenable.
Maybe if someone had a clue on what to play, they wouldn't be getting a 1 Point. Just an FYI all movin stations across the country are dropping like flies, the ratings on most of the MOVINS are pathetic.

Atrocious spelling there, dude! That's two sacmento's in one day!

Big ups, Fats!

A note to add to tdanner's great info: Even if there were enough African-Americans here to support an Urban station, I'm not sure if there are enough savvy business owners in Portland to financially support a station like that.

Sad...but true.

thats why portland radio sucks do you think z100 will change format in the next 6 moths

is this for real?

wait, are redford and Frrrresh here the same person?

Not only do I remember DJ Fwesh on KBOO, I remember Soup and Spaz, and Grassroots radio. She used to rap over a casio keyboard, and did a song about Bob Packwood.

Ah the early days of hip-hop radio in Portland. 2hr blocks of programming on KBOO only.

Tdanner>>historically, black stations have 90% or higher black composition

Perhaps San Francisco is/was an exception. In the 80s when the old KSOL 107.7 was #2 12+ they claimed 65% of their audience was white. I never had the opportunity to crunch any numbers, but I suspect this figure would be about right for a "soul" station that was the highest rated music station in the Bay Area. (For readers who don't follow non-Portland radio, News/Talk KGO has been #1 in SF for over 25 years.)

Yes, Motozak, KQIV was a soul/R&B format for a time, then shut down due to lack of advertisers/listeners. The station was off the air for several months before returning as KMJK, initially a soft rock album leaning station. Somewhat like KINK at the time, but a little closer to mainstream soft rock. I'm sure Craig can be more precise about details than I.

I believe KQIV was shut down because they couldn't pay the power bill. The Soul programming seemed to be an offshoot from a similar sound on KGAR. Aren't most Urban stations squarely aimed at the African-American community whereas CHR/Rhythmic is more mainstream albeit playing some of the same music? Isn't 1480 still running some kind of Urban AC?

1480 is all over the map today. Some of the time it's talk, other times it's urban AC. Other times it's a Blues station.

Boy how I miss the days of the Classic Soul format on 1480. I still have a few airchecks saved that I go back and listen to from time to time.

It signed on in October of 2002 and died in January of 2004.

For those who haven't seen this material and are interested, here's a link to some newspaper articles regarding the demise of "Super Soul 107."

KQIV Press at the End

Dberichon~

What caused CSH's demise? Bad ratings, poor management, lack of funding, what?

I do listen to the Urban AC on 1480 sometimes, but it's not the Classic Soul format.

And Randy~
Magic 107, wasn't it? I very vaguely remember hearing/reading something regarding a soft-rock station called "Magic 107" in the 80s or maybe *very early* 1990s. I remember seeing something to that effect advertised on the little Alpenrose milk cartons at school with lunches, circa 1990 or so. (I was in the first grade about that time.)

Is this the same station or am I thinking of a different one?

Motozak: Yes! Same station and Yes! Magic 107.

Kq4: So Z100 could have well been Z107!

Let's see if this one comes back and bites me: KMJK returned 106.7 to the air on the same day that KGAR went Country. I want to say August of 1977. They were first a soft version of AOR. It was either Beautiful Rock or a format competitor. They shortly switched to Top 40, Soft AC, back to Top 40/CHR, which actually evolved from something called "New Music", then Classic Rock and finally Hot AC, which changed calls to KMXI somewhere around 1993.

Yes! KGAR went County, Monday August 1, 1977 & KMJK began operation on August 1, 1977 at 6pm. Calls changed to KMXI on January 25, 1991 and to KKBK on July 7, 1993.

What killed 1480 as a Classic Soul station was the fact that ABC dropped the Classic Soul network.

It's a shame too, from what I understand the Portland affiliate was one of the network's most successful ones.

Thanks Dylan, my girlfriend and I were both curious about the machinations behind that move. One of my favorite all-time local radio formats. I still spin over to 1480 and usually discover something interesting, but that was unique.

Danner, you know your radio (the "shizizle" one might say) and I can't argue your experience or the numbers. Still, I disagree that a truly good R&B station would not stand a chance in this market. See any cows and horses? I don't anymore either, but we still have successful country music stations. You may have underestimated an audience that would include every color, because it appeals to every color. Motown was called, "The Sound of Young America." No color there, except a lot of green. My 2 cents.

FBR, me too. Here's some long time overdue love for DJ Frresh. Welcome.

Littlesongs - Know Thy Market!!!!
The Portland market is not the city of Portland!! There are a whole lot of cows and horses, and berry farms, and hops farms, etc etc etc in the Portland Metro area! That's why we have 2 leading country stations.

On the other hand, we are one of only a couple of the top 100 markets in the country not to have enough black population (5%)to merit "Black differential survey treatment" and tracking by Arbitron. Media folk refer to Portland as the most "vanilla" market in the country!

Chris Taylor said: "I don't view hip-hop and rap as R&B."

I'm with you Chris. R (Rhythm) & B (Blues). Rap and Hip-Hop have rhythm, one that I don't care for, but certainly don't follow the blues format.

When was the last time Etta James or B. B. King ever mentioned killing a cop or even used the word motherf***er in one of their songs?

Danner, respectfully, I have lived here all but 5 of my tender 36 years. I have a friend from north Clark County who rode her horse to high school. That was the early 80s. I worked for a few years at Aurora State Airport. That was the late 90s. Happy Valley, Sauvie Island, and most of East Multnomah, Washington, Clackamas and Clark Counties are not as overwhelmingly agricultural as they were years ago. Yes, there are still some farms.

Chip plants, housing developments and golf courses are not farming. There is a market, but saying all the dwindling farmers like country is just as ludicrous. None of the huge local stations run a farm report. "Urban cowboys" make up the majority of the listeners and they mostly do urbane things for a living. Still, no point in belaboring the issue. I will now let this idea of recognizing market diversity -- beyond the numbers -- wither and die, because that is obviously the point. The only R&B this market will ever have is the "Rage & Bullying" on AM. :o)

I may disagree, but I respect what you have to say.

Country has been the best selling music for the past 50 years.

Absolutely, Chris, people love it from all different backgrounds and races, myself included, and if the market were not diverse it would not be so popular. I also agree with you, R&B is not even mainstream hip-hop, let alone the more "gangsta" stuff and it never has been. I will now gather my two cents, put them in my pocket and save them for a rainy day.

This town has had R&B on and off over the years and it never really took off enough to support it. You may like it but the bottom line is that there were not enough listeners to support it.
What do cows and horses have to do with country music? Nothing really.
Generally speaking, people like what they like irregardless of where they are from. Portland has enough listeners that will support two good country stations. It is just that simple. You may not like Classical music, but it appears that there are enough listeners to support a commercial free station in town that plays nothing but that 24/7.

Start your own R&B non-comm station and see if you get enough donations to support it on its own.

The Northwest has a rural mind set because of its past. Not just farming. The wood industry for one. Chances are if you know a family that was been in the Northwest for the greater part of the 20th Century, at least one worked as a logger or in a sawmill or the fishing industry. Canneries were a big employer for cherries, apples, you name it. It's only been in the last 40 years or so that this has really changed but music habits haven't and they are passed down to the next generation. A lot of close knit families are usually more rural the city.

Wow. Brain arcs here.

Littlesongs called me out, asking if I'd seen any cows and horses. I said yes I had, since the "market" is a lot more than Portland. In fact, Clark, Marion and Yamhill are as "metro" as Multnomah, Clackamas and Washington Counties.

And since as a rule only 4% points separate first from 20th in Portland, that white rural edge (well defined by Craig) gives country enough of an edge that we usually have 2 country stations in the top 5. (compared to NY with 2-3 Urban stations in top 5, or LA with 2-3 Hispanic stations in Top 5.)

And keep in mind that if you start talking really old school R&B, or even Motown, you are talking about the same problem that killed KISN. The primary, core demo is way too old. Yes, younger musicians and fans sample, revere, copy, and tribute their founders, but they don't make up a stable core. For this same reason traditional (Cash/Wynette/Dolly/Merle) country stations don't fare well. Country fans revere them, but they want to hear Brooks & Dunn. Traditional country is usually the 3rd or 4th country in the market, used by the #1 country as a flanker to allow #1 to really push its hip-ness.

Craig, you are eloquent and right on. Danner, you are a pro and a great source of hard information and I appreciate the time you took to respond. I also dig everyone else who has weighed in here. :o)

To be clear, I was not arguing our rural traditions, the numbers or the reasons behind Country's success, but instead that our market can support many things with some imagination. The discussion has illustrated that the current market trends, census numbers and ratings are still the way to predict the future and analyze the past. I was simply saying that Country is popular despite the growing number of migrating big city slickers, despite the lack of current agrarian values and despite having only a small, but quite vibrant local country music scene that seldom gets airplay. It really isn't a urban vs. rural issue. It is a crossover issue. I used it to illustrate a point. I think R&B has crossover potential for entirely different reasons. My point was apparently lost or not worth trying to make.

No offense, Harv, but you obviously didn't bother clicking my card to see the seven years I spent with the great folks at that particular "24/7 Classical" outlet. My experience there taught me to never underestimate a tenacious audience that adores, no, make that, LIVES & BREATHES incredible music. The numbers are small, but I am one of those people too. While I was there, beyond the studio glass, young white kids were embracing black culture in a way they had not since the 1970s. I am not saying, and have not said, "let's start an R&B radio station," but still, like others, I felt it was worth a discussion. A discussion. I was wrong. Instead, I have to be scolded by someone who apparently missed hearing about movies and books that are known worldwide -- see your other post about the famous Portlanders that I mentioned. I have met them, you can Google them.

I just figured the idea was worth batting around. Dang me, it was just an idea and the other information in this thread has been worth the discourse, good idea or not. Harv, since you mentioned it, I would, as I have said before, start an Oldies station that ran from the earliest steps of the 1950s to around 1975, or so, when the last of the live magic gave way entirely to studio trickery. I would include an equal portion of Rock, Pop, Country, and yes, Rhythm & Blues and Soul, since they all work incredibly well together and share roots. I would sell advertising to extended care facilities, hipster shops, feed stores and all night diners alike. I'd have live Gospel music every Sunday morning and real local news. I would expect my live talent to keep learning everything they could about the music and our fair city. Portland would adore it and we would go broke, but we'd keep some radio families fed for a few years and have a blast. Now, I have four cents, watch out Stumptown. :o)

Littlesongs
Sounds like my kind of station. When do you start broadcasting? I'll be your number one fan.
;)

Littlesongs- Amen bro!

Now I realize I am one of the current problems with radio because my wife and I voice track a morning show in Coos Bay. But I think you'll appreciate the format. 70 percent smooth jazz, the remaining is AC, some oldies, some classic R&B, and a small mixture of AC Christian. (Ownership is a local Christian group)

But one of the big reasons I like this station is the PD chooses songs that have no demeaning or hopeless lyrics. Which means many songs don't make the play list, but it still leaves loads of tunes you probably won't hear on other stations.

Also from time to time we'll feature NW/local talent. I will produce an hour long show called NW Spotlight and feature one artist and promote their web site. It's as close as it comes for me as it did in the days of me actually showing up at a radio station.

I know I get criticized for voice tracking but I gotta tell ya, it's working out nicely for us and we still are able to be creative and do radio as best we can.

I'm not sure VT is that big of a problem. It's the rigid control. Too many set expectations limit the ability for connections to be made between people.

--and that's where the future of radio is at. Don't care if it's VT, live or some mixture of the two. (Ideally, the mix would be the happy medium)

As a content distribution system, radio increasingly sucks. It's coming up against essentially random access systems that are increasingly portable. Overall quality is essentially becoming on par as well. This is only a short matter of time.

The recent sat consolidation efforts clearly show that offering far more choice is not the total answer. It might be, if it were free, but I doubt it.

For better or worse, FM is a local medium. AM is a regional one, when done right.

This means not only leveraging research trends, but cultivating program forms, station identities and content types that are appropriate for their particular audience. These decisions are best done by people having some familiarity with the area, or that are permitted to earn that by interacting with and exploring the culture elements present where ever they are.

This, by the way, is the big value add that Chris has demonstrated working nicely. It's his investment and his choice, but clearly it's something that can be factored into the overall formula.

To save money, regional people could be used to ease the burden of having to keep local on air or VT staff on the station bottom line.

The only real down side to this is that people become necessary elements. From a big business point of view, this is a bad thing as they cannot be bought and sold the way IP properties can be.

(With IP being canned and branded "formats" like Movin', Jack, etc...)

To that I say tough titty.

Either embrace the people, leverage that and build a longer term business, or continue to lower the bar until the properties are devalued to the point where others can step in and do it.

It will either go the hard way or the easy way. For me, the entertainment is seeing which it will end up being!

Chris Im glad that works for you in Coos Bay but here in portland Voice tracking is a sad excuse! The stations that do Poor in the ratings almost entirely voicetrack! Its not good radio, Smooth Jazz sounds so bad that Stoner had to chime in and let people know how awful the station sounds. They don't put live talent on the smooth jazz and IT SHOWS! It is BOOOOORING!!!!!!!! Id rather listen to No talent than some guy pretending he's live.
Voice tracking is so bad I can tell EXACTLY who is doing it in portland because it sounds sloppy!! Here goes
The Mid-day chick on Z100- HORRIBLE!
Every Jock on Smooth jazz- HORRIBLE
The morning guy on NRK- Horrible
The mid-day woman ON K103 HORRIBLE!
I wish these cheapo's in portland would spend a little more time and money putting together a product that is "listenable".
Voice tracking is a joke! It is BEYOND absurd that Z100 and K103 is voicetracking their middays! what an absolute joke.

Hey buns i have to agree with you. It is absolutely ridiculous that A station like K103 who makes tons of money can't even put a full live staff on the air for the major day parts! I think the voice tracking on a lot of these stations has already began to bite them in the bottoms. Nrk had a horrible book, Smooth Jazz is ready to flip any time now, Coincidence? I don't think so.

Buns and Mayo- Of course I agree with you both. I have done plenty of live radio in Portland and may again down the road. I wouldn't mind putting in an ISDN line and do it live from my home studio.

I have gotten so used to working from home that Vting is working out best for me. I think that bad voice tracking is the talents fault if it's not engaging. I wouldn’t mind Vting in Portland because I know the scene. I have lived here most of my life. If I can keep it engaging and entertaining and informative not only about the music but the place we live, then I am not doing my job as a jock. Live or voice tracked.

But alas- radio purists will hammer me back down.

Thanks Dave and Chris, when I get my millions, I will let everybody know. Or, perhaps, this board being so in tune, you will all let me know first. ;0)

Chris, I for one would not hammer you for VT. KSKD made some great observations and he is a big fan of arguably the best "not quite live" station this market has ever seen. Although I fully agree with the sentiments of Buns and Mayo about how it has worked it Portland lately, it is a viable and valuable way to program a station.

VT can have soul, even without the element of being in the moment, but it takes a special talent to bring that energy to the job. I am not going out on a limb to consider you an exception. The NW Spotlight sounds like a wonderful show, and although it seems like a no-brainer, not enough stations in this region recognize the myriads of musicians in our backyard. I also really admire the philosophy of your PD. It reminded me of this quote from America's greatest songwriter, Woody Guthrie:

"Any song that makes you think you're born to lose, bound to lose, no good to nobody, songs that run you down or poke fun at you because of your bad luck or hard travelin', I'm out to fight these songs to my very last breath of air, to my last drop of blood. I'm out to sing the songs that will prove to you that this is your world, no matter what color, what size you are or how you were built."

That PD philosophy is something people pick up on. It's the foundation for all the station does and forms it's core identity. This, combined with smart imaging elements, will differentiate that station from others. Either listeners identify with that or not.

My point being that it takes a warm brain somewhere in the process to make things like that happen. It's where connections begin.

Of course, I liked KSKD for these kinds of reasons as well. Somebody was in the chain making sure the core elements were in play and that they were relevant. Going forward, I'm not sure highly automated stuff is the answer though. Back then it made sense, but it's too easy to add value with people today. I know that sounds goofy, but it's true!

I'm not sure a KSKD would make it today. Maybe... Charlie seems to do ok, who knows? If I had a shot at this today, I would incorporate networks into the picture to leverage people in creative ways.

So, the whole VT vs live discussion is moot, IMHO. Either is capable of delivering an experience that people can relate to and enjoy every day. All it takes is a brain somewhere working to make that connection on whatever level makes sense for the market in question.

I think cultivating VT talent can only be a good thing. Costs are lower --in fact a creative station would not need a studio at all! It could have it's program elements and talent all distributed where it makes the best sense.

We've excellent networks with more than enough bandwidth to enable these things. Why not embrace that and invest the hard dollars into content forms and presentation forms that make connections?

Cut costs by getting rid of the building and invest them in people and solid network connectivity for a far better value add then having an office to go to each day brings to the table. Of course, this is bad for big business because the value perception is lower. Less to sell, etc...

But the value, like it or not, is in the relationships between people, not all the stuff that makes it happen.

I've got podcasts I listen to on a regular basis. I can choose to participate live, or listen after the fact, whichever I choose. (talkshoe.com) I've done a coupla shows in this medium and it's great. I connect with the shows easily enough as a listener, and I don't always consume them live, but I can if I want to. As a content creator / "broadcaster" the connection is solid there too, judging from the e-mail received.

All of this effort is distributed! There is no brick and mortar and the results show clear potential for quality and compellingness (sue me!) on par with radio today.

Seems like a no brainer going forward. The shows I participated in (talk stuff), were composed of two or three people, living far apart. Listeners connected from where ever and a high quality talk program mixed with Internet discussion resulted!

Radio is already there. Live broadcasts or VT can air first. Internet tie-ins can allow post broadcast consumption, discussion, etc...

I've migrated there with TV too. I flat don't consume live television any more, unless there is a really good reason. The PVR makes consumption on my time a reality. There is no going back.

With radio, I've tried this too and it works nicely! I setup a computer to snag shows from KNRK to listen to. Was more work than I wanted to do, but the result was excellent! Some work in this area with feeds and perhaps some middle aggragator types would result in a very potent venue that people can access however it makes sense, while retaining that special spark that new content has when broadcast first.

And I gotta say, of all the things radio has to leverage, this one is remains the most potent. This expectation is still largely intact with younger people today. If we go another cycle without reinforcing this in a relevant way, then it will be lost.

That spark comes from people who have a desire to entertain other people. It can be with talk, new music, humor, etc... Computers just don't do this. They can queue it, enable it, aggragate it, process it, deliver it, but that it.

The broadcasts are still a great way to stay connected in that they stream the material to the people. What the people do with it should be no biggie. With radio, emphasis on special themed program segments (shows) on a time schedule that is consistant is a big move in the right direction.

All of this stuff is catching on and it's not a bad thing for radio in general, given some willingness to embrace and leverage this stuff.

All that is required is to empower people to connect with other people period. The rest follows from that.

Here's a format losing ground on commercial stations. [All Access]

Dateline: Los Angeles.

Classical "K-Mozart" flips to "Go Country 105" KKGO. Country music returns to FM in the City of Angels.

do think the fan down to its last gas i mean the 3p7p show is boring its seams every sports station syicated 247 what yall think

yo moving need a full time djs the music is terrible i wonder they donk take requets or do on air giveways whats behind that

did yall know 1480am is wack as fuck also the singal terrible the black talk format blues thing dont work when simcast outta seattle and albama you think chris bennet will sale the station let something decent air on the 1480 singal

Wow.

...and the answer is...Omaha. What do I win? Hey Craig, since you mentioned the Classical format, I checked the Arbitron ratings for the top 60 markets and found the following have a commercial Classical station: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington, Boston, Seattle, St Louis, Milwaukee and Providence RI. That's the entire list! The Boston and Providence stations are owned by the same company and possess similar calls so they might be simulcasting. I'm guessing that some of these stations have a deal somewhat like the one KING-FM has where a non-profit group is set up to run it forever.

Yes! Plus San Francisco & Washington should be off the list in the next rating period!

shizizzle, fools. it be bout time dat stumptown get theselves a kickin' stick in da air. whatupp

Sibelius in da house! Bring on the Wagner! Big ups to Satie! Rolling with the Mozart! Dig that def Beethoven!

djfresh is one of the reasons that this site keeps on keepin' on. Always entertaining, sometimes informative, what yall think

I 4 1 am all down wit djfresh!

Seriously. He's bringin' it everyday.

That's why i'm keepin' this thread bumpin' up.

Bumpin' on Sunset, just like Wes Montgomery.

That's what I'm talking about.

I can just see Ralph Rogers rolling his eyes.

Hee hee! Yeah, he would have stopped that after the first two words!

"Flavor beyond compare!"

yo wat a requet? who donk take em?

I went head to head with Chris Bennett on a Washington property. As it shook out, better he got it! He definitely paid too much for that pea shooter signal. More importantly... who listenes to his stations? I guess he makes money, but can't imagine how.

Fresssh?H get your demo to mooooooovin yet? If it sucks get in there and make it better! you da man!

you know if chris bennet was smart he sell that piece shit of kbms radio and let someone like clear channel put better format there

Right, As everyone knows Clear Channel is the epitomy of great Radio! LOL!

I'm sure the major companies are clammering after a station whose main nighttime lobe is contained mostly within the Willamette River.

Clear Channel & pea shooter stations mix together about as well as oil & water.

Bennett bought what he could get his hands on. weak signals way up the dial.... He did use the race card to pull off the purchase of the old KDFL Sumner..... It added to his broadcast empire, but he still owns stations that really have no value. Look what they are, where they are and what they target.... He makes enough to keep them going, and I guess that's what it's all about, but you won't get a quality local product from that operation. Notice Mr. Freeeeshh that CC is unloading stations. No big boy wants, as you refer to, that piece of shirt kbms. 100k might be too much for that one.

KBMS K Bowel Movement Station? That wat u meen by pice of?

how that demo go over at moooovin when do u start?