Why DOESN'T this Surprise Me? This from CBS News:

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2007/02/02/publiceye/entry2426334.shtml

I wish it surprised me too. We are having a scientific crisis. In our cold war haste to build a better mousetrap, the schools pushed all of our brightest minds into math and the sciences. Not a bad idea, except that they all needed something to do when they graduated.

Today's market is full of the old guard. They have been discarded from corporations, government agencies and academia when the truth was no longer convenient or it cost too much. If they can't find a home, a voice and a publisher, decades of research go down the chute with them. Or worse yet, if the company still owns most of the ideas in their minds, they are forced to do nothing. Zaentz Fogarty Syndrome, I believe, is the medical term for it.

This job market is also chock full of young sharecroppers trying to work themselves out of over hundred thousand dollars of college debt. You could go to Vinnie the kneecap breaker for a better interest rate than most education loans. These days it takes until you are forty to pay for it.

No surprise, the most desperate are slipping into satin lab coats, walking the streets late at night and climbing half naked into oil company limousines.

This doesn't surprise me at all. I think the big oil companies are extremely dangerous. I have long suspected that one of the reasons we are still addicted to "oil" is through the efforts of the Exxons of the world.

It comes in many forms, including major campaign contributions and lobbying of our elected leaders. We know that most politicians will do anything for money, so the oil companies find an easy target.

Thus, Dubya's insistence that we drill and develop the ANWR despite unilateral bipartisan support AGAINST the idea.

Deane has it right, as long as big oil has big hands sticking big wads of cash in big politicians big pockets, NOTHING will get done.

Al Gore / Clinton energy policies resulted in increasing "global warming", and thus they needlessly caused ice to melt.
Example, the Gore policies enabled many new coal burning power plants to be built, but discourged any nuclear power plants from being built in the usa. [OK to build 'em in europe and china however.]
Coal burning releases more radioactive residue, co2, greenhouse gas and heavy metal dust into the atmosphere that do nuclear plants (for same amount of power output).

LOL..

Some Conservatives finally acknoledge Global Warming, then find a way to blame it on Clinton.

LOL

A few facts that Al Gore convienently left out of his movie!

Also, forgot to mention about all of the jet fuel used up by Al and his enterage to attent the Cannes film festival! If he wanted to go so much, why didn't he use wind powered sail boat?

Note: global warming began during last ice age.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8 763c6&k=0

Yeah! Therefore doing anything NOW is bad. Terrible.

It's ALWAYS Clinton's fault. The neo-CONers have been in office 19 of the last 28 and EVERYTHING is Clinton's fault????
Clinton caused Global Warming!
Clinton caused DUHBya's drug abuse!
Clinton caused Reagan's memory loss!
Clinton caused Cheney's heart attacks!
Clinton caused DUHbya to attack Iraq for NO reason!
Slick Willy is the root of all evil!

I find it interesting "Herb" hasn't commented on this thread. Of course Rush Limbaugh has always stated Global Warming is nothing but a Liberal ploy.

Now I'm beginning wonder if good old Rush picked up some Loot from The Big Oil Gravy Train himself!

Rush Quote from his own website Feb 2, 2007:
"They (liberals) always like to say that their opponents are being funded by Big Oil, as though that's some sort of crime."

Bottom line here, Take the Money & Run and SCREW Humanity!

Maybe Rush should change his catch line to: Talent on LOAN from Exxon.

Talent on loan from Chevron:

"Leaving a wave of controversy in its wake, one of the most visible reminders of the Bush administration's ties to big oil - the 129,000-ton Chevron tanker Condoleezza Rice - has quietly been renamed, Chevron officials acknowledged yesterday.

"We made the change to eliminate the unnecessary attention caused by the vessel's original name," said Chevron spokesman Fred Gorell.

The double-hulled, Bahamian-registered oil tanker carrying the moniker of Bush's national security adviser was renamed the Altair Voyager, after a star, Gorell said.

The unannounced decision to rechristen the tanker was made by Chevron officials in late April, after "we had been in discussions with (Rice's) office," said Gorell. Asked if Rice or the White House had specifically requested the name change, Gorell said, "that's not for me to discuss."

- Carla Marinucci, San Francisco Chronicle, Saturday, May 5, 2001

There is nothing in the article supporting the claim, that scientists were paid to lie.

This is more liberal eliteism, their trying to shut down anyone that disagrees with them.

If their so sure their right, why does having people disagree with them scare them so much?

I am a disgusted fellow pointing out a 129,000 ton symptom of a much larger problem. This is not a partisan issue. It is an issue of greed.

This WHOLE story was made up by Liberals! BIG OIL is as pure as the drivin' snow. Or are they oily slick?

How about an excessive profits tax on people and corporations in the sports and entertainment industries?

It's different with those.

Nobody needs a movie, we can play our own sports games and make our own music.

We all need oil period.

There is no real check on oil, as we are a captive market. If they suddenly tripled the cost of oil, we would pay it. That might start a war, but we would still pay it.

IMHO, that's a solid justification for regulation.

Also, oil is a finite thing. Some regulation is also necessary to help us make it last while we develop our next primary energy source. This may not be the case today (though I suspect we are nearly there), but it will eventually be the case.

The men who make out checks to the Rolling Stones, A-Rod, Shaq, Clint Eastwood and Jay-Z have staggeringly more money than their famous employees. It seems fair enough to tax all of our wealthy even at current rates so long as strictly defined charity tax write-offs are their only option for relief.

Remember when Paramount Pictures was "A Gulf + Western Company?" Consolidation and conglomeration has never paid off in the long run, but like a lot of big business, oil still tries to be everywhere at once. If an oil company is willing to sink millions into a movie about people from outer space, one would imagine they might be willing to invest in other, more concrete fantasies. They can certainly afford to pay for the illusion of scientific integrity to save the industry.

Nwokie said>>>
This is more liberal eliteism, their trying to shut down anyone that disagrees with them.

Sounds a lot like neo-CONers.... Huh...

I spent last week working in Canada.

It's interesting to see how the people can lead the politicians.

The number one issue to the public in Canada is the environment.

Consequently, both Conservative & Liberal factions are blaming each other for falling behind on Kyoto targets.

Excessive profit tax? So we want people to be successful, but not too successful.

Income Tax is already regressive, so the more you make the more you pay.

"Income Tax is already regressive, so the more you make the more you pay"

You're kidding, nwOkie, you don't really think that's how the tax system works, do you?

The wealthiest pay the least ...

Kyoto targets outside of the United States are very important to the survival of the planet.

Meanwhile, to many Americans, they just sound like a cheap Asian substitute for skeet.

The wealthiest pay the most by far, as both total taxes and percentage of income.

Top 10 percent pay over half the taxes.

Bottom 10 percent pay none, to the feds.

Not since Bush came to town.

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Jan06/Gerard30.htm

http://www.fairtaxes4all.org/site/apps/lk/content2.aspx?c=apIIIWMLG&b=13536

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0408-06.htm

http://www.chn.org/humanneeds/051209b.html

http://blog.aflcio.org/2006/10/11/how-much-have-bush’s-tax-cuts-cost-you/

WOW!
Nwokie has been listen to Plush Bimbo and Insannity for too long. STAY AWAY FROM FauxNews!!!
Andy those links are great. Now, if Nwokie will use them???

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/whopaysmost.htm

just the facts

Climatologist Calls Global Warming Fears 'Greatest Deception in the History of Science'...
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/global-warming020507.htm

I read the links, and their all talking about tax cuts, and since those doing well already pay ,by far, the most taxes, and tax cuts will naturally affect them most.

The links dont talk at all about who pays the most in taxes.

The lower 20% are already receiving tax credits.
they pay negative fed taxes.

Hey 62, Did you google that kook "Climatologist" Tim Ball? He's a paid tool for the oil industry!

Ball has even made the outrageous argument that climate change and global warming would be good for us. "A warmer Canada would improve our lives in these and other ways too numerous to list. Global warming? Let's hope so," he wrote in June 2006.

Tim Ball has also questioned the science behind CFC's and the Ozone layer. Ball claimed that "CFC's were never a problem.... it's only because the sun is changing".

Previously, Ball has been identified as a Canadian climate change sceptic who is a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry-backed organization, Friends of Science.

Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman, has resigned from the Science Advisory Board of FoS to head up NRSP. His credentials as a climatologist were challenged in an April 23, 2006, letter to the editor of the Calgary Herald by a Professor at the University of Lethbridge, Dr. Dan Johnson. Ball has filed a statement of claim against Dr. Johnson, the University of Lethbridge and the Calgary Herald.

Among the various '''embellishments''' to Ball's resume are claims that he was the first Canadian Ph.D. in climatology, that he was Professor of Climatology at U Winnipeg for 22, 24, 26, 26, 32 or maybe 64 years and that he has lots and lots of scientific publications (he has 4, as far as anyone

The Natural Resources Stewardship Project (NRSP), a Canadian non-profit group, including a number of leading climate change sceptics, was launched October 12, 2006.

Sorry 62, He's not a legitimate scientific source...

The former Mrs. USGS

As has been mentioned meany times before:

Follow the Money.

"In 1996, Dr. Ball left his job at the University of Winnipeg for the more lucrative pursuit of scientific gun-for-hire ("environmental consultant"). It looks like he found a home at the American National Center for Public Policy Research, a Conservative front group supporting whatever initiatives their financial backers want them to endorse."

http://worldofspin.blogspot.com/2004/05/good-dr-ball-gets-another-hit-for-big.ht ml

Looks like we've come full circle to the title of this thread:

"BIG OIL Paid Scientists To LIE About ..."

I'll bet Dr. Ball has been well paid indeed!

As he tries to deny or at least feign ignorance of how and by whom he gets paid. Then he gets busted in an interview that I found online. Creep!

How about this one?
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html

After I stopped laughing at the dork's photo, which is circa 1980's, and the article which must be almost 15 years old, I got to the part of the sentence "Except for Chernobyl and other nuclear accidents," and gave up.

Then I see the website is from Battelle, for whom my brother worked for at Hanford (i.e. DOE/DOD and Defense Contractors. Don't get me started on that saga...scary!)

Mrs. Merkin, I'd like to hear a few anecdotes someday. I must admit a morbid fascination with a facility that repeatedly exposed our friends and neighbors to radioactivity, "just to see what would happen."

"Jeez, Beav. Do you really think energy companies are the bestest in the whooole wiiiide world?"

"I guess not Wally."

"Yeah, don't be such a dummy."

"Gosh, do you really think that we will be the last kids to enjoy cars?"

"It sure looks like it, Beav."

"That's kinda sad."

"Sure is, but it'll all work out."

"You think so?"

"Yeah, now go to sleep before Dad comes up here and yells at us."

"Goodnight Wally."

"G'nite Beav."

You know this thread just keeps getting better & better!

Kudo's to Mrs merkin on her detective work!

A word to the wise, don't get Merkin's Dander up! She'll eat you like a Snack!
I just wish "Herb" would step in here. I know he's reading this. He's posted on other threads but I think Mrs merkins' got poor Herby so scared, he'll never come out of his Neo-con Lair.

The guy with the hat wrote it under the administration of the GORE/CLINTON energy team (1993)!
So it must be 100% poll-driven accurate.

Heart Surgeons save lives (except when they accidently make mistakes, and thier victims die). NO MORE SURGERY! NO MORE SURGERY! DOWN WITH DOCTORS!

As far as I can tell, Mr. Gabbard does not dispute that Global Warming is real, or that Human activity plays a big part in it.

He just proposes that Nuclear, for all it's potential for environmental damage, is still cleaner than burning fossil fuels.

So far no one has posted one link to show oil companies have paid anyone to lie.

Yes the oil companies have sponsered research, as has the sierra club and greenpeace.

Are you implying any paid research is lies?

I'll go get in a bit, it was very easy to find...

BRB...

I got all kinds of hits just googling:

"oil companies" funding global warming scientists

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22oil+companies%22+funding+global+warming+ scientists&btnG=Search

Mrs. Merkin, what ya doing tonite?
Coast to Coast AM - Tonight 10 PM
First Hour: Dr. Tim Ball, the head of NRSP, will discuss global warming.
nrsp.com

Timmy Ball must have something to sell. Art does not usually book guests for free. While his show is amusing and sometimes compelling, it is an infomercial most nights and should be enjoyed with a large grain of salt. I have listened on and off since his "kay-dawn" days, so don't pile on me for telling the truth.

Littlesongs: Evidently you haven't listened to Coast in the last few years. George Noory will be interviewing Tim Ball & John Hogue tonight. Art Bell only has the weekend editions and fill-ins.

Forgive me for my gross generalization -- and for listening to your station (and KISN before that) instead of Coast to Coast. I realized too late that I was snarky. All this big oil talk will do that to a feller.

I still find the show really fun once in awhile, even with George or Hilly, but the lengthy sweeps of commercials followed by shameless plugging drove me away from being a regular years ago. I assumed since Art was back he was on weeknights.

Big oil will never redeem itself, but should I give C2C another shot?

Hell Yes! I think George Noory has a better grip on steering the Coast program. More grounded, than flighty Art but then again, that's part of the Art Bell mystique.

*Spinning the dial*

(after a few minutes)

Well, the Tim fellow is obviously a bit out to lunch, but I do like George. I had forgotten how good he was at letting a guest get a little grace before the callers get to them.

Have you noticed that some of the goofiest guests try to get another tangent in when the bumper music starts?

(later at 10:55)

He just stole, "ad hominem" from Herb to dodge a question about being paid by big oil!

(later at 11:20)

A much more fun and insightful, John Hogue discusses the classic Hitler prediction by Nostradamus. This kind of guest and topic is what got me hooked in the first place.

There is NO such thing as Global Warming!!!!
Let's just worry about it later when it will be too late.
And if it gets to out of hand let's just use our troops to kick it's ass. Maybe we can even carpet bomb it???
TOTAL ALL OUT AGRESSION IS THE ONLY WAY! KILL IT AT ALL COSTS!!!!!!
The neo-CON way

Dr. Tim Ball was on the Victoria Taft program tonite (860 KPAM). Hope you all had chance to listen.

One way to deal with Global Warming is to replace old growth trees with young trees which absorb more CO2 than the old ones do.

Never imagined clear-cutting was the solution to our biggest enviromental threat. Who'da thunk it?

Also, some Bicyclists needlessly cause additional Global Warming when their slow pace causes other traffic to slow and thus forces cars, SUVs, Trucks, buses, and motorcycles to travel at slow inefficient speeds.

Although he leaves out science and global warming, even this gentleman, at a gala two years ago, admitted to a crowd of his biggest supporters and closest allies that our current approach to energy was wrong. Remember who said this?

"I've been spending some time talking about a subject that I know is dear to your heart. See, you've been going to the gas -- gasoline pumps lately. This country needs a -- we need an energy plan...

We need a plan that encourages conservation, encourages environmentally sensitive exploration for oil and gas in our own hemisphere, in our own country. We need a plan that encourages the use of renewables...

We need a plan that allows us to diversify away from hydrocarbons. We need a plan that is good for economic security and national security, a plan that makes us less reliable on foreign sources of energy...

You know, political parties can take one of two approaches to great problems. One approach is simply to do nothing, to deny that a problem exists, or delay solutions, or refuse to take responsibility. The political parties that choose this option will not gain the trust of the American people. The other approach is to lead, to focus on the people's business and to take on the tough problems."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/05/20050517-9.html

(Craig, I am hooked again. The "ghost line" and the Michigan - Egyptian connection last night was timeless fun.)

I think I will go outside and let me car run for a hour or so just to piss of the dummies that believe in global warming.

Mc74-Unless your car also doubles as a private jet, you'd have to run it a very long time to compete with the global warming antics of Mr. Gore and Robert Kennedy, Jr.

Herb

Herb: I'll bet that Hummer-H2 you drive is approaching the equivalent of a private jet fuel consumption.

Craig, I know my '89 Land Cruiser does. 8 mpg!

Hey,once we get the system in place to identify nob legal residents on their drivers licenses, make a rule, you cant buy gasoline unless your here legally.

That should help some.

How about a 100% tax on over 25 gallons a week purchase by everyone else, the extra money going into a real SS trust fund.

>>>"Mc74-Unless your car also doubles as a private jet, you'd have to run it a very long time to compete with the global warming antics of Mr. Gore and Robert Kennedy, Jr."


C'mon Herb. You've been around long enough to know that with liberals, it's do as we say, not as we do.

And that would also mean that with ultra conservatives it is "Do As We Say" or get arrested!

And for those in the middle it is "Don't do what liberal's say or do and hide from the conservatives when you do not do as they want"

MC74 - " I think I will go outside and let me car run for a hour or so just to piss of the dummies that believe in global warming."

YEAH! DO IT! Heck, make it 7 hours. Come on, you wimp. All talk. Go do it.

Nwokie

The bottom 20% pay no federal taxes. Does that include FICA Tax, which is a federal tax?

Mc74,

How about trying that and running it inside the garage, with the doors shut. Take some CDs, and your laptop or a book and just relax or do some (f)actual scientific global warming research while you're out there. You're looking a little pale.

Good times!

LOL!!

DJ said>>>
C'mon Herb. You've been around long enough to know that with liberals, it's do as we say, not as we do.

Unlike the neo-CONe way!
KILL AND DESTROY EVERYTHING AT ALL COST!!!!!
And let God sort them out!

Just came in from letting my car run for about a good 4 hours, I feel a sense of pride in knowing that I brought a tear to Al Gores eye

Way to fund the terrorists too! Right?

Neat.

Actually a bicycle's pace would be an extremely efficient speed for a car to operate.

MC74- doesn't it hurt you to be so painfully ignorant? It hurts me.

*Plonk*

OUCH!

Mirrors and self esteem hurt you Tadc, For that they have medication.

I'm rubber. You're glue.

Yep, it would be very efficient from me to drive my car right thru stopsigns and blow red lights, then go uphill at 2 mph.
It would also be efficient to drive the car down the street the wrong way at night in the opposing lane of traffic with my lights off.

Or, you could be a man, ride a bicycle and have enough stamina to put more than a charitable smile on your sweetheart tomorrow.

Some ladies like a good wheeze and flop. I have never met them, but everyone has a soul mate.

I guess you could take your car out for dinner.

Actually unnecessary stops at traffic lights/signs are one of my pet peeves, because of the massive waste of time and resources they cause.

I often think we'd be much better off with a well trained staff of traffic cops, perhaps operating the signals directly rather than standing in the street with a tin whistle.

I agree with this.

Conditional light changes could help too.

Say, from the hours of three to 5, you just cannot turn left at a given intersection so that others may move through more quickly.

That would put a higher burden on the other roads, but it's probably a better tradeoff than our current gridlock is.

Another option that's becoming possible now is to have a large computer keeping track of traffic flow on a greater scale. It could then regulate lights with an eye toward general flow.

More on the subject that neo-CONers don't think exists....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17276693/

Not just big oil, but big diaper too. In case you missed this jolly on-going investgation into data stifling by this administration...

"Without strong action to restore integrity to federal science, our nation will be ill prepared to deal with the challenges we face," warned Francesca Grifo of the Union of Concerned Scientists, which released a survey of 1,800 government scientists who described political interference at agencies that study climate change, as well as the Food and Drug Administration and Fish and Wildlife Service.

The panel's chairman, Rep. Henry Waxman of California, called on the White House to release "documents that contain evidence of an attempt by senior administration officials to mislead the public by injecting doubt into the science of global warming and minimizing the potential dangers."

Waxman said former oil industry lobbyist Phil Cooney edited scientific reports on global warming as chief of staff at the White House Council on Environmental Quality."
-- Cleveland Plain Dealer
http://www.cleveland.com/open/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/ispol/1170248158291530 .xml&coll=2

MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16886008/

CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/30/congress.climate.ap/index.html

Fox:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,248580,00.html

Last night, Al Gore’s global-warming documentary, An Inconvenient Truth, collected an Oscar for best documentary feature, but the Tennessee Center for Policy Research has found that Gore deserves a gold statue for hypocrisy.

Gore’s mansion, [20-room, eight-bathroom] located in the posh Belle Meade area of Nashville, consumes more electricity every month than the average American household uses in an entire year, according to the Nashville Electric Service (NES).

In his documentary, the former Vice President calls on Americans to conserve energy by reducing electricity consumption at home.

The average household in America consumes 10,656 kilowatt-hours (kWh) per year, according to the Department of Energy. In 2006, Gore devoured nearly 221,000 kWh—more than 20 times the national average.

Last August alone, Gore burned through 22,619 kWh—guzzling more than twice the electricity in one month than an average American family uses in an entire year. As a result of his energy consumption, Gore’s average monthly electric bill topped $1,359.

Since the release of An Inconvenient Truth, Gore’s energy consumption has increased from an average of 16,200 kWh per month in 2005, to 18,400 kWh per month in 2006.

Gore’s extravagant energy use does not stop at his electric bill. Natural gas bills for Gore’s mansion and guest house averaged $1,080 per month last year.

“As the spokesman of choice for the global warming movement, Al Gore has to be willing to walk to walk, not just talk the talk, when it comes to home energy use,” said Tennessee Center for Policy Research President Drew Johnson.

In total, Gore paid nearly $30,000 in combined electricity and natural gas bills for his Nashville estate in 2006.

Well I'd be a hypocrite if I tried to legitimately argue against that.

If he was all solar or something, would that give him more credibilty? And how would that credibility manifest itself?

Anyone? I don't know.

He could start by having a Home Energy Audit done.
Does he (and family) turn off the lights when they leave a room? What are the heating/cooling temperature settings on the thermostats (including swimming pool and hot tub? Do they close off rooms not in use?
Then cost out various remedies (insulation retrofit, changing to lower wattage light bulbs, storm windows, solar water panels, solar electric panels, windmills, rebuilding house to be "passive" solar heated, zone heating/cooling system, etc.), and how long it would take to recoup the investment(s). Make all the data public. No donated materials or labor allowed.

That would actually be really cool. Would we get to hold other officials to a standard like that? I mean, in the fantasy-politico league being talked about here.

I LOVE the idea of being judged by the willingness to put your money where your mouth is. You may be on to something. It could garner TRUE respect.

Let's dig a little deeper into this "Tennessee Center for Policy Research" shall we?

"The Tennessee Center for Policy Research is an independent, nonprofit and nonpartisan research organization committed to achieving a freer, more prosperous Tennessee through free market policy solutions.

The Tennessee Center for Policy Research is an independent, nonprofit and nonpartisan research organization dedicated to providing concerned citizens, the media and public leaders with expert empirical research and timely free market policy solutions to public policy issues in Tennessee.

The Tennessee Center for Policy Research promotes personal freedom and limited government through policy solutions that:

Generate economic growth through reduced tax and regulatory burdens on individuals and businesses

Create unmatched educational opportunity by empowering parents, students and teachers with choices and opportunities

Advance healthcare solutions that restore dignity and encourage personal responsibility

Identify opportunities to reduce cost and increase efficiency in all levels of government

Reflect the Founding Fathers’ vision of a free society grounded in property rights and individual liberty based in personal responsibility"

Let's look at some of their favorite links:

http://www.tennesseepolicy.org/main/page.php?page_id=5

Uh huh.

Where and who does their funding come from? Check out their website, they're not exactly as all-encompassing or as well-rounded membership-wise as their blurb tries to make them out to be.

Why are there no sources cited for Gore's home energy bills? How does one obtain that kind of information, anyway? Can I find out what my neighbor's energy bills are? I'd like to see some legally obtained, factual (or any?) proof of these bills before I get all outraged.

I would suggest checking with willamette week for the inside on how to find out these things!

Heh. YEAH! The Trailblazers are causing global warming too!

Ahhh, ABC already did the detective work...from the other thread on Gore's Carbon Footprint:

"The press release from Johnson's group, an obscure conservative think tank founded by Johnson in 2004 when he was 24, was given splashy attention on the highly-trafficked Drudge Report Monday evening, and former Gore aides saw it as part of a piece, along with an Fox News Channel investigation from earlier this month of Gore's use of private planes in 2000. Last year, a seemingly amateurish Youtube video mocking the "An Inconvenient Truth" turned out to have been produced by slick Republican public relations firm called DCI, which just happens to have oil giant Exxon as a client."

Darn, I sure wasted my time on this one...

No you didn't!

I read it, and thanks.

If that isn't enough, we've still got posts about how Bush would have won, and was elected, not selected in 2000, despite a ton of information, published repeatedly!

Fighting ignorance is clearly taking longer than we thought!

Great work Merkin!

Here's another chestnut, from the Union of Concerned Scientists:

"ExxonMobil has manufactured uncertainty about the human causes of global warming just as tobacco companies denied their product caused lung cancer," said Alden Meyer, the Union of Concerned Scientists' Director of Strategy & Policy. "A modest but effective investment has allowed the oil giant to fuel doubt about global warming to delay government action just as Big Tobacco did for over 40 years."

"When one looks closely, ExxonMobil's underhanded strategy is as clear and indisputable as the scientific research it's meant to discredit," said Seth Shulman, an investigative journalist who wrote the UCS report. "The paper trail shows that, to serve its corporate interests, ExxonMobil has built a vast echo chamber of seemingly independent groups with the express purpose of spreading disinformation about global warming."

ExxonMobil has used the laudable goal of improving scientific understanding of global warming—under the guise of "sound science"—for the pernicious ends of delaying action to reduce heat-trapping emissions indefinitely. ExxonMobil also exerted unprecedented influence over U.S. policy on global warming, from successfully recommending the appointment of key personnel in the Bush administration to funding climate change deniers in Congress.

"As a scientist, I like to think that facts will prevail, and they do eventually," said Dr. James McCarthy, Alexander Agassiz Professor of Biological Oceanography at Harvard University and former chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's working group on climate change impacts. "It's shameful that ExxonMobil has sought to obscure the facts for so long when the future of our planet depends on the steps we take now and in the coming years."

Read the whole shebang here:
http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/ExxonMobil-GlobalWarming-tobacco.html

Some solid points, including by Tim Ball here:

http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/harris061206.htm

Herb

Author: Mrs_merkin
Monday, February 05, 2007 - 3:41 pm

Did you google that kook "Climatologist" Tim Ball? He's a paid tool for the oil industry!

Ball has even made the outrageous argument that climate change and global warming would be good for us. "A warmer Canada would improve our lives in these and other ways too numerous to list. Global warming? Let's hope so," he wrote in June 2006.

Tim Ball has also questioned the science behind CFC's and the Ozone layer. Ball claimed that "CFC's were never a problem.... it's only because the sun is changing".

Previously, Ball has been identified as a Canadian climate change sceptic who is a "scientific advisor" to the oil industry-backed organization, Friends of Science.

Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman, has resigned from the Science Advisory Board of FoS to head up NRSP. His credentials as a climatologist were challenged in an April 23, 2006, letter to the editor of the Calgary Herald by a Professor at the University of Lethbridge, Dr. Dan Johnson. Ball has filed a statement of claim against Dr. Johnson, the University of Lethbridge and the Calgary Herald.

Among the various '''embellishments''' to Ball's resume are claims that he was the first Canadian Ph.D. in climatology, that he was Professor of Climatology at U Winnipeg for 22, 24, 26, 26, 32 or maybe 64 years and that he has lots and lots of scientific publications (he has 4, as far as anyone

The Natural Resources Stewardship Project (NRSP), a Canadian non-profit group, including a number of leading climate change sceptics, was launched October 12, 2006.

He's not a legitimate scientific source...

The former Mrs. USGS

Littesongs...I haven't properly thanked you for being apart of our little on line community. Thank you for your insightful, and sometimes humorous posts. You are refreshing....like Freska.

Agreed!

I feel the same way.

Thanks Chris and Missing, I truly appreciate the thank you. I thoroughly enjoy reading what you guys bring to the table and I often learn something new. Fresca? I like that analogy. I am partial to that drink as well as Quench, another of the wonderful, but misunderstood grapefruit soda family.

I'm new and I wear boots, so I am bound to wreak a little havoc on the toes. Truly though, I love this group of people, yes, even ol' Herb and I appreciate the indulgence of not only reading so many great and diverse views, but contributing my own two cents as well. :o)

(Thanks to Merkin for my latest salvo of truth above!)

Agreed.

Herb

Note: Geology and Climatology are not the same.

Expertise in one does not equate to expertise in the other.

The above posts are blatent examples of trashing the messenger if you don't like the message.

The "Union of Concerned Scientists" is just another leftwing organization. You cant trust em, just like you cant trust the so-called ACLU!

The Union of Concerned Scientists was created in 1969 at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology for faculty and students. It has grown to count many of the brightest minds in all fields of science.

That statement was signed by 10,600 leading scientists including over 50 Nobel laureates. Do you truly seriously believe that over ten thousand recognized experts can be wrong about our government?

Take a look at the top experts that include many award winners and pioneers in their field:
http://www.ucsusa.org/scientific_integrity/interference/prominent-statement-sign atories.html

Take a look at 555 web pages of signees:
http://go.ucsusa.org/RSI_list/index.php

How many leading scientists did NOT sign it?
How many signed under duress/intimidation?

Sure is cold here today. Is that human caused?

Is Kulongoski Government INTERFERING with Climatologist George Taylor?

Actually, Oregon has no "State Climatologist"

George Taylor is a Climatologist with Oregon State University.
But that does not stop him from claiming the non-existant title of "State Climatologist.

And He is also paid by the oil industry.

http://www.desmogblog.com/node/1062

It is interesting that not ONE Nobel laureate has supported President Bush on his position. Seemingly, the only scientist that is going along with Bush's view has her name on the back of an oil supertanker.



(ps: the sinking of the uss condi rice would actually be a GOOD thing for the planet!)

Not a wise comment to make, these days, Skeptical.
I'd remove that if I were you.

Herb

It's only unwise because we've got a totalitarian government that has insecurity and ego issues.

I say keep it!

Not at all.

It's because we have a responsible government that takes homeland defense seriously after 9/11.

If anything happened since then, the left would never let us forget it.

Herb

Herb said - "If anything happened since then, the left would never let us forget it."

OK - that is one of the most direct, telling and accurate things I have heard you say in quite a while.

Very clearly, that is a factor, a HEAVY factor, that motivates you to say the things you say. I'm NOT saying it's wrong or inaccurate. I'm just saying that it is refreshing to hear you actually say something as opposed to imply it - or even hide it.

"Note: Geology and Climatology are not the same."

Well, duh.

Was that directed at me? Maybe you better take a look at what the USGS actually does. Check out their website. It is not, by any means, "just geology". It's Earth Science, which can include climatology.

It's all connected, 62kgw. Certainly you can agree on that?

My former supervisor is a world renowned and highly respected glaciologist. Her research on the glaciers of Mount Rainier is the benchmark. She is now internationally respected in another area of volcanolgy, and you see her on TV (news, Discovery Channel, etc.) quite often. I worked with about 50 scientists (in Vancouver) of many different disciplines that all relate to volcanoes. I doubt any of the researchers there has less than a Master's degree, if not their Ph.D, and they are some of the smartest people I know, even if they have the social skills of a dirt clod.

My other point is, that they work very closely with many entities; other federal agencies, international researchers, universities, etc.,

The budget and funding cuts and the pressure the Resident President's Administration has put on science agencies to do things like change wording in "controversial" (i.e. stuff they don't want you to see or hear) publications and research is well documented. Don't want them to finish a project? Simple, cut the funding. Or have the Shrub-appointed agency head force the change.

re: uss condi rice

I rather be dead than rub with the shrub.

Coupla facts for you Herb:

I will never forget what the GOP has already done!

If we get hit again, then I will evaluate how and why that happened, then go from there.

I was a Republican since I began voting. The core ideals I valued are long gone from the party. I've also come to realize the value inherent in being socially liberal.

Redefining America, a solid attack on the middle class, repeated attempts to legislate morality and major corruption combined with an inability to actually govern have lost me. Maybe some day I'll reconsider, but not until we see a fresh set of faces.

Frankly, another terror attack is fairly high on my radar right now. Given the amount of GOP pissing in the pool going on, it's almost expected. The more people get annoyed, the higher the chance of them acting out!

Of course, this is grade school stuff, but we wouldn't know it from the example our current GOP leadership sets for us.

yeah, party on dude!

I have no clue what you do Mrs. Merkin. Are you a Geologist? Someone else was claiming that a Geologist was a good judge of Climateology science opinions.

Re: glaciers. Even if glaciers are retreating because of "warming", that does not prove that SUV's and oil furnaces are causing it. Might just as easily be caused by using Coal for power plants rather than nuclear/nucular. OR, could just be due to natural temperature cycles. Like, duh!!

Note: I agree that its better not to put more gunk in the atmosphere, if you dont have to. But please don't have Al tell me it caused the hurricane to flood New Orleans.

Like, duh, please accept my apology, I thought you were ripping on me.

(But I'm still 100% against both "Dr." Tim Ball and the assertion that "One way to deal with Global Warming is to replace old growth trees with young trees which absorb more CO2 than the old ones do." That's beyond ridiculous.)

Funny thing, non-believers, if we are right and the planet is dying, we will take no relish in being right. Or, would we?

After all, Noah may have built his Ark in a city full of people. He may have lived in a country full of industries, who changed the facts and called him a liar. Those very same folks may have built a high tech vessel for the elite, only to see it sink beneath the ever widening sea. A ship doomed to fail, without the timeless flexibility and ancient resiliency of wood construction.

Perhaps, Noah -- listening to the anguished screams of the same folks who taunted him mercilessly -- felt pretty gosh darn smug. It wasn't long before the cries were silenced by the womb-like waves that carried the Ark. He may have felt a mix of waning sympathy and growing vindication. He may have looked in wonder at new world when he stepped from his Ark. He may have been startled and relieved when he noticed that not a trace of their civilization remained. Who knows?

Mother Nature's rule is absolute. Many histories have been changed with the forces of nature. Japan and Oregon share an ancient tsunami. That wave touched both shores and helped teach us a great deal in the centuries that followed. Thanks in large part to geology, I might add, we are safer now from tsunamis than ever before. I am not going out on a limb to say it is because we understand them now.

Tsunamis were the wrath of god, they were a monster, they were a fairy tale, and yet, they were real. They exist now beyond myth, they are a proven scientific fact. Gravity was once hoodoo. A round planet was heresy. Scientists have sweated, been persecuted and some have died for almost every fact, every breakthrough and every modern convenience we enjoy. The least we can do in return, is give almost eleven thousand of the best of them, the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps it would help you to think of them as an entire little city of Noahs.

It is a matter of faith in the evidence. I have faith, how about you non-believers?

Want to ask NOAA?
http://www.noaa.gov/

Look here for positive photographic proof of global warming, also other info.
http://iceagenow.com/

62- excellent example of the ostrich effect... keeping your head in the sand makes it look like all the evidence supports your view!

Lots of cases of "gee, it's colder than normal at one particular point in time, so global warming must be false!". Hate to break it to you, but that is NOT coherent reasoning.

The part about Europe getting colder due to the gulf stream losing steam? 100% true, and 100% CAUSED by global warming! I mentioned it above- increased icemelt and rainfall will dilute the motion of the global oceanic currents that help temper the temperate zones.

The glacier section is especially telling- sure, lots of glaciers are ADVANCING quickly! It's a well known effect- the increased MELTING causes the ice to FLOAT, causing it to ADVANCE FASTER. I especially love the inclusion of the Mt. St. Helens glacier. You know why that one's growing? Because it was COMPLETELY OBLITERATED in 1980! Take a look at some pictures of the Mt. Hood glaciers from the early 1900s versus now and tell me what you think about those.

Regarding whether SUVs and oil furnaces are causing it... IR-FING-RELEVANT. We don't need to waste our time arguing about who's fault the warming is. The fact is that it's happening, and the fact is that changing our behavior will (hopefully) help mitigate it.

Don't want to feel guilty about driving an SUV? Then don't! Just stop making so much goddamn CO2!

Gotta quote Herb on this one... you can't make this stuff up!

If you dont know for sure whats causing it, if you try to fix it (change behavior), you might easliy make it worse, or cause some other undesireable side effect(s). Plus if global warming stops, how do you know for sure that your "fix" caused that change? How long will it take before "fix" takes effect? It might be a coincidence.
Do old trees consume more CO2 per acre than other types of vegitation?

How much did the sea level rise just after May 1980?

BTW, if you look are the proof of global warming clothesline photo, that explains why Bill Clinton didn't really allow Al Gore to fix Global Warming in the 90s'. There are other "benifits" of global warming also.

Did you people listen to C2C first hour last night?

The "you cant make this stuff up" was in reference to Al Gore using 20x more electricity in one of his homes than is done the average American house.

Forgot to mention....
In some regions of the country (south?), "Al" and "oil" have same pronunciation. Thats a homonym attack. When you hear "big oil", It might have actually been "big Al"!