http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=25793

This article was penned by the CEO of a German publishing house and appeared in the newspaper Die Welt [The World].

It makes the points that I've been stressing for a long time here. Namely:

Mr. Reagan helped save Europe and the world.
Terrorists play for keeps.
Europeans have their heads in the sand.
Mr. Bush & Mr. Blair are indeed fighting terror.
And God Bless America.

If you won't listen to Ol' Herb, perhaps you'll listen to someone in European major media who could be considered 'objective.'

Herb

Did the CEO think Reagan's appeasement of Saddam Hussein (letting Saddam gas the Kurds) was a good idea? How about Reagan's negotiating with the Iranians and selling them weapons to try to get our hostages in Lebanon released? Or retreating from Beirut after America's embassy and Marine barracks were blown up by terrorists?

Andrew

Andrew, there are some things you may not realize. No President wants to go to war. They would all prefer diplomacy. You may not realize that diplomacy is not sitting down with a beer and chatting about everyone just being good guys. It takes pressure, it takes trading things, it takes a lot of things.

We could have gone in and blown the Iranians to kingdom come for taking the hostages. The hostages would all have been killed. So, I guess from your post we know what your preference would have been.

You liberals all want appeasement and no war. So when that was done in response to the Embassy and the Marine Barracks, you bitch.

What it is really all about is that whatever a Republican does, you're for the opposite. Think about it. Be ashamed.

LOL, Deane! And all you want is war and no diplomacy. Whatever a Democrat does, you're for the opposite. No doubt, you can't see the hypocrisy in that - most Republican brains aren't wired that way.

Andrew

"Whatever a Democrat does, you're for the opposite."

Actually, whatever a Republican does, including freeing Europe, Iraq and Afghanistan, you're for the opposite.

You like people enslaved?

Herb

>>>"And all you want is war and no diplomacy."


Actually, I'm for results. Whichever of those two things the opposition wants to respond to is OK with me.

Well put. I would only add that I wish we were getting the results we've paid for. We are trying very hard though. Just not getting very far.

Yet?

I'm for "results," too. Who isn't?

You usually come across as a pretty intelligent guy, Deane. Why so snitty today? You know "all liberals" aren't for "appeasement" so why even say such a thing? It would be like me saying "You conservatives are for killing innocent women and children in wars."

Andrew

"...all liberals" aren't for "appeasement..."

Part of the problem is that liberals define very little as appeasement. Kum-bah-yah is just dandy to many on the left, including Mr. Kennedy, Mr. Kerry, Mr. Schumer and friends.

If anyone should be able to recognize appeasement, it would be a German like the one who penned the article. It was Germany who elicted appeasement on behalf of Hitler through Neville Chamberlain.

Europe was freed from communism and Hitler, thanks to America. Afghanistan and Iraq are being freed right now, thanks to America.

We don't wring our hands. We get to it. Besides, appeasement doesn't even work! It only ensures that the big bully gets bigger...then he's even harder to take down.

Herb

So will you finally admit that Reagan's appeasement of Saddam Hussein was a mistake? That his appeasement of terrorists in Lebanon by retreating when America was attacked/hundreds of Americans murdered was a mistake? That Reagan selling weapons to the Ayatollah in exchange for hostages was a mistake? That Reagan doing nothing while letting Saddam gas the Kurds in 1988 was a mistake?

If these things aren't appeasement, then what is? Oh, wait - if Republicans do it, it's not appeasement, right?

Herb, you've never addressed these things like an honest person, yet you repeatedly bring up "appeasement." Why the dishonesty? Why the evasiveness? Why the hypocrisy?

Andrew

>>>"You usually come across as a pretty intelligent guy, Deane."

I make no such claim to that capability. Those who know me will no doubt agree.


>>>"So will you finally admit that Reagan's appeasement of Saddam Hussein was a mistake?"

Maybe it was at that time, maybe it wasn't. I don't remember the circumstances in the region back then, or who was banging who.


>>>"If these things aren't appeasement, then what is? Oh, wait - if Republicans do it, it's not appeasement, right?"

Same as above.


>>>"You know "all liberals" aren't for "appeasement" so why even say such a thing?"

OK, I'll do it your way. Most liberals prefer appeasement to confrontation.

When it comes to diplomacy, it succeeds best when neither side wants confrontation. The best way for us to have that circumstance is to be plenty powerful. You can read that as a "big military with a short temper" if you like.

Let's not forget the beginning of this thread and what started it.

"So will you finally admit that Reagan's appeasement of Saddam Hussein was a mistake?"

I don't know. Mr. Reagan saw Iraq & Iran fighting each other as a way to prevent one terrorist state from dominating the region.

I'm against the shedding of innocent blood, so perhaps, Mr. Reagan might have worked it differently. I don't know. Those two countries have been at war a long time and hate each other.

Nice deflection from Mr. Reagan's outstanding accomplishments, however. Yet it doesn't mitigate the fact that Ronald Reagan essentially freed Europe.

Compare that to Mr. Clinton's impeachment and Mr. Carter's giving away of the Panama Canal. Pathetic leftists.

Herb

More evasion, Herb. You brought up appeasement. I brought up Reagan's appeasement. You refuse to address it directly. Trying defend it by saying I ignored Reagan's accomplishments is like me trying to defend Clinton's lying about Monica by citing his (hey, didn't you know that Clinton freed Kosovo, Bosnia, and Haiti?).

And I wasn't talking about the Iran-Iraq war, I was talking about Saddam gassing his own people in 1988 (you know, the justification you've brought up repeatedly to defend Bush's 2003 invasion of Iraq?). So stop pretending it was about the Iran-Iraq war - you know exactly what I was talking about, and you look foolish for continuing to evade it, while continuing to bring up appeasement. Reagan is the #1 appeaser of the last 30 years (yep, including Carter) - why not admit it? Instead - evade, deny, and change the subject. Nixon would have been proud if you. :-)

Andrew

I didn't change the subject. You simply continue to refuse to acknowledge the plain fact of Mr. Reagan's freeing the whole of eastern Europe.

History has proven that liberal appeasement didn't work and that hard-nosed conservative might and know-how did.

Herb

So how come it has failed so horribly now?

Given such left-leaning media bias, how could it go any other way? Bad news travels fast and to many, perception is reality.

Imagine our fighting WWII with the kind of Quisling's imbedded in our media today. We would either be speaking German, Japanese or Italian.

Herb

So you can point me to the good news right?

Good grief, it's the blame game all over again. This is tired, not wired.

The whole problem with this war is the simple truth about it being unjust period. If that was not enough, it's been poorly executed to boot! That poor execution leaves us in the position of occupiers.

We will never have the high ground in this conflict because of how it all started. It's unjust and that's not a basis for a solid victory.

Having said that, had we at least executed it properly, we might have at least been able to achieve some solid goals. Still no high ground, but likely a far better problem than the one we have now.

Go ahead, show me the good news! Believe me, most of the nation is looking hard for it. Why hold back?

Right now, it's an uphill fight. Much like Normandy or the Battle of the Bulge.

Based upon your logic, we should have bailed out in those situations and allowed the Germans to march in.

Sprechen sie Deutsch?

Herb

Herb..
How about the THOUSANDS of women and children KILLED in Iraq??? Is that free???
Ronald McDonald Reagan didn't do anything wrong?? He APPROVED of the gas that Sodomy killed THOUSANDS of Kurds with?? And Ronald McDonald just sat in his White House and couldn't remember anything....

Herb..
We're waiting for the GOOD news??? You said MILLIONS freed in Iraq and Afghanistan?? Yet 100's being KILLED every day.... That's the good news??? Hundreds of OUR KIDS being killed every month???
SHOW US THE GOOD NEWS!!!!!

The good news is that Iraqi's and Afghani's are voting.

Women are going to school.

The rape rooms are shut down.

Saddam and his murderous thugs are gone.

Only a desperate partisan would deny these facts.

Herb

Herb I firmly believe you truly need to visit Iraq. Not as a joke but seriously go to Iraq.

They are voting but has that changed anything except that they are voting. It hasn't stopped the killing.

The rape rooms maybe shut down but rape is still happening, some from our own soldiers.

Saddam and his thugs maybe gone but they are being replaced.

Normandy and the battle of the Bulge were enemies in a conventional war...this is far different.

Do you think sending 21,500 more troops is going to help? And if so how?

You're right Herb - that is the good news.

What would you say are the top items on the " bad news " list?

Terrorists are continuing to kill innocents.

The possibility of a drawn-out war like Vietnam.

Less than stellar effort from Iraqi nationals.

The possibility that it all will be for naught.

I'm a positive guy. But you asked for the downside.

Herb

And all those things outweigh your list of positive, for me.

And I'm a positive thinker too.

Herb!!!!
WOMEN and CHILDREN are dying in Iraq every Fin day! At a staggering rate! How many were killed during Sodomy's regin??? HUH? Guess for us....
How many INNOCENT WOMEN and CHILDREN are dying everyday from car & roadside bombs?????
Herb???
3,000+ AMERICANS were killed by Osama and Co. WHERE THE F is he???? 3,000+ of OUR KIDS are DEAD because of WMD's and Osama... We haven't found either one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thank DUHbya and Co. for HIGHER taxes in the future so that we can pay for this ASSINIE war.
DEFEND AMERICA!!! From America!!!!!!!!!!!

A "CEO of a German publishing house" said it!

Even if I agreed with every single word that person said, that title doesn't exactly make me automatically respect his opinions.

I can't even tell the purpose of posting that link. To rub our faces...in what exactly? What is it that you are reaching for there?

He needs a warm fuzzy really, really bad.

"I can't even tell the purpose of posting that link."

Again.

The Germans refined appeasement to an art form during WWII. If anyone should recognize appeasement, how about learning from those who've used it best? Talk about a sell job...convincing the world that Hitler was an ok guy and that he had legitimate aims? After September 1, 1939 and the invasion of Poland, many appeasers STILL wanted to believe him.

Herb

I think it's relevant after all.

Look, our President is doing exactly the same thing! No matter how hosed up it gets, there are those people who just will support him until the end.

I'll bet they will continue to do so, long after he is no longer in office.

That one goes both ways Herb.

I posted this on another thread. I'll post here again.

-------

Rep. Charles Rangel (D-N.Y an African Amercian) was asked what he thought about the President.

"Well" he said, "I really think he shatters the myth of white supremacy once and for all."

Herb sez: "The rape rooms are shut down."

Ya know, Herb, I've been reading that sentence of yours for what, a couple of years now, and I wondered today, 'exactly where and what are these "rape rooms" that Herb parrots over and over?', so I Googled it.

And gosh darn it, all I can find are references to Bush-isms and allegations of "rape rooms" from his fellow shrubettes and toadies. Most of the entries on Google mention Abu Ghraib. I guess WE are the main proponent of, and were operating the "rape rooms", i.e torture chambers.

I could not find one single fact, photo, or first-person account that there was/is such a thing.

In fact, the first entry on Google comes from PDX:

http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/12/276660.shtml

Here's a series of "rape room" quotes from our current resident and staff. Unfotunately, it's from Slate, so I'm sure that won't satisfy you.

http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/

Can you do better and provide some factual proof of the existance of these "rape rooms"?

Thanks so much.

Please refer to page 5, The Treatment of Women.

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/hr/2002/cdec/irdp.pdf

There's plenty more on other heinous behaviour as well.

Herb

OK, so rapes and beheadings happen, as this is not uncommon in the Middle East, not just Iraq, where women are considered property, and it's legal to do this.

I'm still looking for your proof of "rape rooms". What are these, exactly? I can't find them on Amnesty International's website, as they (AI) were cited by your source above, or on Wikipedia.

There is also no mention that these practices have stopped or have even declined due to either the death of Saddam, or by US involvement.

Still curious.

Mrs. Merkin.

I don't know if there are photos of doors with the words 'Rape Room' written on them.

Any area where women are brutally attacked and violated qualifies.

But honestly, is that what you need? Should we have waited to find such signage, whilst women were attacked? Besides, Saddam was a master at concealment. If you want to be convinced of Saddam's atrocities, why not simply Google Saddam Hussein atrocities?

The documents released of gassed Kurds should have been enough to convince anyone of the regime's brutality.

Please.

Herb

Herb, what's happening is the onset of the American Short Memory syndrome. Slowly, all of the things going on in Iraq before we invaded begin to become faded in the memory. As time passes, some liberal will want to nominate Saddam or one of his sons for Sainthood. Welcome to the American mindset.

Deane, you're absolutely correct.

Look at the Holocaust revisionists in Iran. Indeed, even Mr. Carter appears to be headed in the same direction.

Herb

Thanks, Herb, for your responses.

You keep stating that these so-called "rape rooms" are closed, and I see no evidence of either these special rooms, (located right next to the "beheading rooms"?) or that the torure has even stopped, including that (documented rapes) done by US troops.

If my husband was being held in another room, and was being tortured as well, what kind of spouse would I be to confess to something he/we didn't do? I'd have to take it, too. It's reprhensible and disgusting to torture in front of children, no matter what sex the parent is.

I think some people (men and Condi?) love to use the sensationalistic "women and children" ticket to titillate and enrage, when really, it's ALL horrible! It's not like it's OK to torture males any more than it is to torture women and children, It's equally as sickening, no matter what.

And Deane, your statement that "some liberal will want to nominate Saddam or one of his sons for Sainthood" is utterly ridiculous and just plain stupid. Do you really believe that? Good God! It's almost sick. I so am offended (shocked, actually) by your statement. Shame on you.

If there is such a dispicable person(s), maybe "they" can and should join up with the Aryan Nation, if they aren't already members.
And I highly doubt that they're "liberal".

Sorry I slipped away from reality for a moment Mrs. Merkin. I should have remembered you're a liberal. Liberals are never wrong. Conservatives are never right.

By the way, if you're so easily offended, you might want to give some second thoughts about participating on internet forums such as this. It probably won't be the last time you're offended.

"..documented rapes...done by US troops."

Mrs. Merkin.

In your version of the situation in Iraq, you've placed our troops on a par with Saddam's rapist henchmen.

First, let's see your documentation of how many times our troops have committed such heinous acts. One time? A dozen? How many times?

Second, as a group, aren't you essentially placing American soldiers on the same level as Saddam's torturers and rapists?

If so, shame on you.

Herb

So if millions of Iraqi's are free just what kind of a country are they free in? If they are so free and if democracy is working so well in Iraq, I again suggest Herb book a flight to Bagdad so you can witness all this freedom the Iraqi's are enjoying.

I personally get very tired of your armchair quarterbacking when the facts don't add up. When that happens you run to your historical files and Nixon-ize the entire thread.

Herb-
There is recorded rape and then there is unrecorded rape. For every woman who is raped and reports it you best believe many have not reported it for safety reasons. So numbers here are hard to nail down and have always been that way.

When you are under tremendous stress like our soldiers, you do stupid things and react differently because you are seeing a side of life that is ugly. No two ways about it. The line gets blurred on what is right and wrong. This is not to villianize all our troops, but some have done some hideous things that has been documented. Probably more undocumented.

We do know what Saddam has done. But it all gets back to the basic reason why we are in Iraq and why our President has us there. Deception from the White House as I see it.

Ok, Chris. Can't you see the problem with comparing troops who are freeing Iraqis, with Saddam's henchmen who raped and tortured Iraqis? Our guys are giving their lives to free these people and THEY'RE THE BAD GUYS?

It's like saying that because 2% or less of abortions are performed on rape or incest victims, then no restrictions should be placed on abortions.

Using the exception as the rule.

That's a problem.

Herb

Chris, my understanding is that there is a lot good going on there. A lot.

Unfortunately, there is also a lot of bad going on. A lot.

Interestingly, the military guys, and many others who are there, or have been there say the good is all going unreported. The liberal press sees only the bad. Surprise, Surprise.

Deane I am sure there is loads that is going unreported. It happens in a war. And the liberal/conservative media's are blasting it into our living rooms everyday.

Herb-I would never compare the two, you and Merkin have that discussion going on.

I again ask, What kind of a country are we giving these freed Iraqi's? Where's the infrastructure, the governing body for these freed Iraqi's to pursue there new found freedom?

"What kind of a country are we giving these freed Iraqi's?"

Perfect freedom isn't possible. Even very open freedom like we enjoy here in the USA doesn't happen all at once. Look where these people are coming from...Women weren't even allowed to read.

Heck, black people here in the USA weren't free for many, many years. It's a process. Does that work for you, Chris? I'm honestly attempting to answer your valid question.

Herb

Herb- I know you are honestly trying to answer my question.

Freedom is defined by many things and is indeed a process which is ever changing. How we define freedom in our country can ring differently in Iraq or other countries. So how do we help the Iraqi's build this freedom within the context of their society?

My answer is not PC.

Many would argue it's not doable or desirable.

But personally, I would like to witness a Christianization of the entire middle east.

Instead of bombs, send 'em Arabic Bibles.

There are worse options than replacing Wahabi terror with the teachings of Christ.

A debate of how to achieve that could alone fill several entire PDXRADIO threads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianization

But why is it such a crazy idea, yet fine to essentially deify John Lennon for his atheistic & communistic view from his song "Imagine?"

The only belief system which has slaughtered more than Islamic terror is probably communism.

Herb

DJ said>>>
Liberals are never wrong. Conservatives are never right.

Huh? neo-CONs is more like it!
But we know you DJ... Your thinking that YOUR extreme way is correct.... COME ON! You do...
It's okay. America didn't think so last election. Still having troubles with that???
How about watching your HUGE 746" movie screen??? Maybe a Reagan film will cheer you up????

Herb,

Rape is a fact of every war ever recorded since the beginning of time. It's the ultimate human degradation, to either gender.

And while you're making a giant leap of mind-reading me, I most certainly am NOT "placing American soldiers on the same level as Saddam's torturers and rapists".

Jesus, Herb, nice try.

Sadly, it's well documented that it has happened and they (US boys) got caught. See my links below.

my statement about being offended was to DJ, not you. Does DJ really believe that his (any normal) fellow Americans who differ only in political viewpoints would stoop so low as to consider Saddam and family for sainthood? That's far more offensive than any discussion here on poop. That statement lowered my opinion of DJ considerably. (and I'm positive he couldn't care less.)

As for your requested "documentation" just type in "Iraq" "US" and "rape" into Google, and the first thing that comes up is this:

(And I tried hard not to include any "liberal US media" sources)

A US Army soldier has pleaded guilty to raping a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and helping murder her and her family.
James Barker agreed to the plea deal at the start of his court-martial in the US to avoid the death penalty, his civilian lawyer said.

A criminal investigation began in June into the killing of the family of four in their home in Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad, in March 2006.

Specialist Barker is one of four US soldiers charged with murder.

They are alleged to have helped a former private - who has since been discharged from the army - to plan, carry out and cover up the attack.

Two of the soldiers could face the death penalty if found guilty.

All four soldiers belong to the 2nd Brigade of the elite 101st Airborne Division.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5162976.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277145.stm


(Warning: the below site contains graphic photos)
http://www.vialls.com/myahudi/rape.html

"Writing on a subject as delicate as this is incredibly difficult to start with, made even harder nowadays because so many Americans are on the defensive, determined to shield American "honor" no matter what the price. On this subject it is wise to remember that informed patriotism is highly desirable and very healthy, but blind patriotism is incredibly dangerous. This fact was brought home to me on 14 April, when I wrote an accurate report about rogue American officers destroying U.S. Marine Corps honor, by ordering their subordinates to slaughter unarmed women and children in Fallujah, the City of Mosques, with heavy weapons including tanks, Cobra gunships and AC-130 Spectre flying battleships. As usual, independent verification was provided three days later by eminent war correspondent John Pilger, and by the highly respected Médecins Sans Frontières, but this was all way too late for 'alternative' American website Rumor Mill News.

After piecing together the available evidence from more than 400 known cases of pack rape in Iraq, the women's refuges are of the combined view that about 80% were perpetrated by American-controlled mercenary groups rather than by line military soldiers, but they cannot be absolutely sure. This is due partly to the sheer terror of the victims at the time, and because some victims [including those whose faces you see on this page] were brutally murdered when their tormentors had finished abusing them. Please note that I have made no attempt to obscure the faces of the men involved. If you, a friend or contact can positively identify any one of them, please contact your local FBI office...

Much has been made of the sexual humiliation of the men incarcerated by the Crusaders in Abu Ghraib Prison. However the abuse of the female prisoners at Abu Ghraib, and other prisons in Iraq, have gone nearly unnoticed. Although it took photographs to wake the world’s attention to the shenanigans, within the cells, it was actually a letter scribed by a woman prisoner that first exposed what was going on in the infamous prison. The contents of a note that was smuggled out of the prison were so shocking that, at first, Amal Kadham Swadi and the other Iraqi women lawyers who had been trying to gain access to the jail found them hard to believe. It claimed that US guards had been raping women detainees. Several of the women were now pregnant, it added. The women had been forced to strip naked in front of men, it said.

The Taguba inquiry has corroborated the contents of the letter smuggled out of Abu Ghraib by a woman known only as "Noor". The enquiry found the letter to be entirely in line with the activities going on within the prison. While most of the focus since the scandal broke has been on the abuse of men, and on their sexual humiliation in front of US women soldiers, there is now incontrovertible proof that women detainees have also been abused. Among the 1,800 digital photographs taken by US guards inside Abu Ghraib there are images of a US military policeman “having sex” with an Iraqi woman. Taguba discovered that guards have also videotaped and photographed naked female detainees. Bush refused to release other photographs of Iraqi women forced at gunpoint to bare their breasts (although Congress were shown them) - ostensibly to prevent attacks on US soldiers in Iraq. However in reality this is merely to prevent further domestic embarrassment"


http://www.counterpunch.org/marshall07082006.html

..."Similarly, the Associated Press ran an article on July 2 by Bassen Mroue that offered this astounding take on the context in which the rape and murder of Abeer Qasim Hamza took place,

"Iraq is a conservative, strongly religious society where many women are sheltered from contacts with males who are not family members."

Mrouc conveniently leaves out any reference to the fact that prior to the U. S. invasion, women in Iraq enjoyed far more freedoms than in most Arab countries and that religious restrictions on women's lives have increased dramatically since Saddam Hussein's ouster."


http://www.ccmep.org/2004_articles/iraq/052804_women.htm

Rape in Iraq: The other prisoners

Most of the coverage of abuse at Abu Ghraib has focused on male detainees. But what of the five women held in the jail, and the scores elsewhere in Iraq? Luke Harding reports... (For The Guardian)

"Honour killings are not unusual in Islamic society, where rape is often equated with shame and where the stigma of being raped by an American soldier would, according to one Islamic cleric, be "unbearable". The prospects for rape victims in Iraq are grave...it is hardly surprising that no women have so far come forward to talk about their experiences in US-run jails where abuse was rife..."


http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm
(warning: graphic photos)

Photos Show Rape of Iraqi Women by US Occupation Forces
Please Note: Many of the photographs showing the rape of Iraqi women and the sodomization of Iraqi POW's at the Abu Ghraib prison are now at USA pornographic websites. Many of these photographs were also freely disseminated to US occupation forces...)

Please go read Chris's posts again. Maybe I'm not as well-spoken and calm as he is, but my sentiments are the same as his.

P.S. FYI I am also not a flaming liberal, I'm really more MOR, just ask me about issues like illegal aliens and PPS taxes.

Anyone guilty of heinous acts like rape, without regard to nationality, should be fully prosecuted and go to prison.

My point was and remains that any crimes committed by Americans are far more likely to end up out in the open. Saddam tried to cover his tracks and many times he was successful.

So given our free press, the handful of criminal activity committed by allied forces is paraded around and the vast majority of good is ignored.

Herb

Is that an olive branch you're holding, Herb?

I hold no animus.

But for the third time, I'm merely stating the obvious.

The vast majority of our troops are the good guys.

Throw the book at the bad guys, who are a tiny minority.

And don't confuse the two.

Herb

Well duh, for the third or fourth time, I never disagreed with you on that point.