This will piss off the Bible thumpers!!!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16287113/?GT1=8816

It just underscores how out of touch with reality they are.

Alcohol helps. A few drinks will easily lower the inhibitions of people who otherwise would keep their legs crossed...and I'm sure that many Evangelical Christians have partaken in drinking at some point in their lives.

I find the Evangelical Christian view on sex particularly interesting: If you are a married Evangelical Christian (presumably married in an Evangelical church), then you can have all the sex you want with your marriage partner. Even the preacher and his wife can have all the sex they want (with one another). I haven't run across any Evangelical teachings that denounce birth control. However, for everybody else, sex is a no-no.

The sad part about all this is that these Evangelicals don't align their teachings to promote a healthy outcome for the children that might be conceived as a result or for the people having the sex. In other words, they don't say, "you should be able to provide a stable home for your future children" or "this promiscuous sex is bad because you could contract a sexually transmitted disease." Instead, they just say "you should postpone all sex until you are in a covenant marriage." It doesn't matter if this marriage is with somebody that has an STD or that is unable to provide for a stable home life.

Author: Alfredo_t
Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 12:48 pm


"Alcohol helps."

Darn right it does.....check out this video that shows just how it does!! LMAO

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2749757251349083641&q=funny+beer+commerc ial&hl=en

Big surpise.

MSNBC often bashes religious belief.

In addition, just because it's common doesn't mean something is desirable.

Most people admit to stealing.

Doesn't make it right.

If you want to base you life on man's low standards, then don't complain when someone breaks into your car and steals your stuff.

Herb

Herb said>>>
MSNBC often bashes religious belief.

Just like they bash EXTREME Right political views???

LOL!

Oops, I misread the thread title. I thought it was about unmarried production people ("SFX before marriage").

Any student of history knows premarital sex goes back to the puritans. No one was more hard line about religion than they were. It's kind of like the so called christians in power today. Can you say Mark Foley?

I think to often the conservative religious people equate sex before marriage as some kind of impurity thus making the marriage dishonorable before God.

I know many Christian couples who lived together before they were married and have long committed relationships to this day. Let alone those who are not of the Christian faith who also lived together and have had solid marriages.

To be honest-it's none of my business anyway.

Chris_Taylor, you don't believe in the sacrament of marriage. That doesn't suprise me. Everything to you is a private matter.

What if the minister of your church had a common law wife? I know, it's none your business. It's a private matter.

Who cares how they handle their relationship? You can have a committed relationship without a ring, or a contract. Or "being before God."

You can fully love someone without anything that society pushes on us.

If you want to get married, great. If you want to have sex before then...that's your personal choice. I just think that everyone should seriously take a hard long look at their life before they start criticizing lives of other people who don't hurt anyone.

There's just more to life than hating everyone because they aren't like you. How boring of a world that would be....

Digitaldextor....I appreciate your comments. Good to see you again.

I never posted that I don't believe in the sacrament of marriage. I have been married 18 years and it's been the best 18 years of my life and getting better all the time.

If the Minster at my church had a common law wife it would make no difference to me and would not make the pastors ministry any less important.

Just so you know the minister at my church is a woman. So how do you feel about lesbians in the pulpit? hehe..I already know your answer.

"MSNBC often bashes religious belief."

I would agree with that. So I take it with a grain of salt or whatever.

MSNBC'S hostility toward faith is almost as palpable as the New York Times, the aclu and the democrat party.

Herb

SBM?

Highly recommended! Done. Next!

(Hey, we are human!)

Christ_Taylor, the basic moral standard you should expect from a practicing Christian is the belief in the sanctity of marriage.

A couple living out of wedlock is not a private matter, but a public statement. They're saying we don't believe in the sanctity of marriage. I know everything to you is a private matter. You should reconsider that belief.

I expect a minister to adhere to a moral standard. Do you? Living in matrimony is an obvious example.

Why are you married any? Marriage to you doesn't have any moral value to you.

"MSNBC'S hostility toward faith is almost as palpable as the New York Times, the aclu and the democrat party."

Geeze. Whatever. Go be right in someone else's face. It's like to think that because I agree with you on one thing, you think you smell blood, and want to push it and push it. To what end? Why?

DD says: “the basic moral standard you should expect from a practicing Christian is the belief in the sanctity of marriage."

Now show me where Jesus, who was never married, says that.

DD says: "A couple living out of wedlock is not a private matter, but a public statement. They're saying we don't believe in the sanctity of marriage."

It's good to see you can speak for all who are in relationships. What's your PHD in?

DD says: "I know everything to you is a private matter. You should reconsider that belief"

Interesting twist to my words Digitaldextor. When did you become the moral police?

DD says: "I expect a minister to adhere to a moral standard. Do you? Living in matrimony is an obvious example. "

I expect you to live by the same moral standard DD that you put on your pastor. I also suggest stop putting your very human pastor on a pedestal. They need your prayers not your judgment.

DD says: "Why are you married any? Marriage to you doesn't have any moral value to you."

I am married because it was a choice my wife and I made. We weren't trying to make any moral statement. We were in love and getting married was the next step in our relationship.

Digital...How long have you been married?

DD, actually a couple living out of wedlock is simply a couple living out of wedlock.

(And having done exactly this, I'm qualified to comment. Gotta know it fits!)

IMHO, this is a very private matter. Being adults, in a free society, they are not obligated to do anything other than not cause others harm.

BTW: I married her and have been married nearly 20 years. Like Chris, it's getting better and all good.

Have you ever considered the flip side of the issue? What of people that didn't take the time to fully consider the implications of marriage? These implications do include sex you know. For me personally, I wanted to know I was doing the right thing. How else to find out?

And I'm asking that honestly. How else?

For what it's worth, I value marriage highly. So highly that I never wanted to even consider divorce an option. And I was a practicing Christian at the time, having serious issues with the need to please others in my personal life choices. ---one of many reasons I chose to leave that path, BTW.

I find it very interesting that many other religious people I know, have seperated or divorced while my family remains intact. Why? Personal differences. Bottom line is they did not make the correct choice. Could it be they didn't fully consider their decision, working really hard to fit the mold others cast for them?

You gotta admit there is a strong case for this.

Your church is not getting married, nor are your peers --it's you and somebody else period. Therefore, the implications of that decision are a very private matter.

Lots to consider too. Kids? Stable family situation, etc.... Considering all aspects of a marriage is important for that reason alone, thus my honest question above.

One's morality is their own. Living with it means coming to terms with who you are and learning to deal with that. It also means having the strength to be honest enough to share that with others --including those you marry.

To do otherwise is to live a lie. This, more than anything, is exactly why I do not oppose gay marriage, for example. Living a lie is not living at all.

The guy down the street might frown on SBM, but at the end of the day, it's really not his concern is it?

Chris_taylor, I expect more from you because of your Christian piety

A couple having premarital sex is a private matter. When this unmarried couple live together, than it is a public statement.

Expecting your pastor to live in wedlock to her spouse is not putting her on a pedestal. It is just expecting her to adhere to a basic moral standard.

Suppose your pastor owned and managed an adult book store. Would you judge her conduct morally wrong? Remember, you don’t want to put her on a pedestal.

"Suppose your pastor owned and managed an adult book store...."

....or stole from the church plate?

It's a slippery slope. I've heard some describe this kind of behaviour as 'cheap grace' or 'carnal Christianity.'

Set us straight on this, Chris.

P.S. Great Radio ads lately with the ever-lovely Barb Hughes for Mr. Gander's store.

Herb

Herb, to be fair to Chris, I'm sure he would drawn the line on illegal activity. However, that is not much of a line.

First off. Herb- Thanks for the kind words about the radio/tv commercials you hear my wife and I on, along with the Schonz. I really wish you could hear our morning radio show in Coos Bay my wife and I do together. I think you would enjoy it.

I think KSKD has made some valuable points. Thanks Doug. I always appreciate your honesty, even when I know the truth of what you're saying stings a bit.

Like Doug I take marriage seriously. My wife was married before (no kids thankfully). Entering into another marriage for her needed some serious re-thinking. To be honest we never once thought to ourselves, "gee our marriage is going to be the moral standard that all will be able to judge what a good marriage should be."

The pastor that did our wedding had been through a divorce and that was helpful for me. He had re-married some 10 yrs earlier. I saw him at my mom's memorial service a couple of weeks ago, 18 years later, still married to the same woman.

That pastor also said during our pre-engagement counseling, that about half the people he councils before marriage were living together, and over half of those people were Christians.

Some things are meant to be private and some things are public. Each couple choosing to get married or live together are making adult choices. Not all adult choices are good, or right. Each has a consequence depending on the situation.

Digital I think we view the moral compass differently. I am not going to tell you how you should live your life. You're a grown-up now. If you make a bad decision, or do something wrong knowingly, then as an adult you own up to it, make it right and move on. Kind of like being healed.

Digital I believe you and Herb view the world too black and white. It's either yes or no. Then when you quote scripture to back up your position you leave out the historical and metaphorical language that much of the bible was written in and miss the deeper meaning of the passage.

From KSKD: "One's morality is their own. Living with it means coming to terms with who you are and learning to deal with that. It also means having the strength to be honest enough to share that with others --including those you marry"

TOUCHE'!!

How long have you been married DD?

Hey Chris, it shouldn't sting. Honestly, had I been in a religious enviornment, similar to the one you describe, I may well never have started to question.

No biggie, it is what it is today. Nothing about this should affect you personally.

Yes DD, how long?

Once you've come to grips with who you are, the honesty gets pretty easy. Really, if one's position on matters is defensible, there is no harm or shame in the whole thing. Without these things being present, why lie?

There is nothing to hide and that's the beauty of it! The only reason any of us should feel shame is when we are doing things or taking positions that are not defensible. Mine are, so I've zero issues talking about it.

Stealing from the plate is a crime. No morality question there, simple law. Easy to resolve this: Not ok.

As for running the adult book store, well... it's legal most places, thus making the whole issue moral. In this, it really all depends on the congragation doesn't it? There are lots of religions, lots of people and many variations.

Seems to me, freedom or religion allows for this to all sort itself out. Since religon, in this country at least, is defined on a personal level, what that means and who we look up to really is a choice we all get to make.

I would argue the porn distributor would have a hard time finding a congragation of similar mind, where the gay pastor may well be able to get this done. Seems kind of self correcting, if you ask me.

Not in relation to anyone here just the title of this thread.

Sex before a lasting marriage is better than sex after a short marriage followed by divorce!

Doug-The "sting" part of your honesty is something I truly admire about the positions you take. This is not a "bad" kind of sting. Whatever your reasons or whatever happened in your personal religious walk has had an impact on you.

Your "stepping" back or disillusionment of the Christian faith is certainly something a guy like me needs to look at and ask myself some very hard questions. But that is something I am not afraid to tackle.

I also understand too that DD and Herb and I disagree on some fundamental biblical and doctrinal issues. Nothing wrong with that. We are in good company because Jesus disciples did the same thing.

Like my sister said to me recently, "we need to read the bible smarter."

For what its worth I appreciate DD and Herbs comments.

Oh yeah and Darktemper-You're one twisted dude. Thanks.

[...has had an impact.]

Oh yeah. I can at least say it's been an interesting ride so far. Never dull, that's for sure!

The best part is that is the end of the reel is still quite a ways off. (I hope)


C'mon Herb, DD. Have an answer to my question. How else to know you've picked the right person?

#1. Don't marry too young. The stats on this ONE issue alone will help any marriage.

#2. Pray.

#3. Get Godly counsel.

#4. After you get married: Keep praying and keep getting Godly counsel.

Herb

How long have I been married? The discussion on this thread is not about me. So it is question I'm not going to answer. Missing kskd and Chris_Taylor if you want to interject your marriages into this discussion that is fine. However I'm not going to.

Missing kskd, you've personally attacked me before so I'm not going to divulge personal stuff about myself. Go reread your "Grow the fuck up and get some learning" post.

Chris-Taylor, you completely missed the point of my posts on this thread. Maybe I’ll recite it tomorrow. Now I’ll be reading my current fiction book which Missing kskd says I don’t do.

Herb- You've given a great idea for another thread. What makes a successful marriage? Kind of like a top 10 list. The criteria you posted-does that work in your marriage?

Digital- I am sorry if I have missed your point. So maybe this will help. Sex before marriage is fine with me if you are consenting adults and understand the consequences of your actions whether you be Christian or not. Living together. I have no problems with it and I don't believe God does either unless it's an abusive situation then get out.

Your illustration of my pastor and the adult bookstore was laughable at best and a poor illustration to begin with.

Also Digital I would suggest getting some tougher skin and not hold onto old threads like KSKD's. If you get so caught up on the cursing you will truly miss the point being made kind of like scripture. And don't think Jesus didn't curse. You don't read it in today's bible because the scribes over the years who were rewriting the Gospels softened the language so it would be more palatable to their societies.

Also digital, many threads go off onto tangents or get hijacked. You've made a great excuse not to divulge if you're married or not. My guess is you are not married and it actually might be sore subject for you. Thus since you are not married your insights about marriage fall mostly on the invalid side of this conversation for me.

Enjoy your book.

I only meant that getting to know someone on an intimate level before marriage can make for a longer lasting marriage....nothing twisted there I thought. Maybe I did not word it correctly but that's all I was trying to say. Sometimes when you rush into marriage and don't truly know each other intimeately it can end some marriages quickly once they get to know each other that way!

Sorry if I offended....not my intention!

Married 22 years strong!

No offense taken.

Herb: I agree with #1!

IMHO, the others only work for those who believe it will work.

Hey DD, can you tell me more about this basic moral standard?

Coupla things:

how is this different from a common moral standard?

who sets the basic ground rules?

from what do they derive their authority?

I'm asking because I do believe in basic moral standards. Clearly we all differ here as to what those are, but I'm almost positive I've not seen anyone post anything that indicates they do not consider basic moral standards (if I have it right in my use) something worthwhile, and or necessary.

Take adultry, for example. It's legal in that our law largely ignores this as a crime. It is however a serious moral harm and can be addressed in civil court. This appears to be nearly universal across everyone. It appears we have a common moral standard here, in the case of adultry, that nearly all of us agree upon, no matter our particular faith.

(And I use the word faith in the most general sense --non belief in god is as much of an act of faith as is belief in god! Nobody knows for sure, therefore it's all really faith in the end.)

So, SBM is a similar thing, but we all don't share such a high degree of agreement. Why do you think this is?

Chris: Taylor: "Your illustration of my pastor and the adult bookstore was laughable at best and a poor illustration to begin with."

I was trying to get you to commit to some moral standard for the pastor of your church. It is perfectly legal for your pastor to run an adult bookstore. But you should expect a higher moral standard from pastor. Do you agree or disagree? Saying it is laughable and a poor illustration is an avoidance tactic. It is a DODGE.

Missing kskd, what about a community standard? I should expect a basic community standard for the minister of a church is that he be married to the woman he is cohabiting with.

A teacher who moonlights as a dancer in a strip club will likely get fired. But why? Her second job is perfectly legal.

Who sets it and from where does this authority come?

IMHO, firing that teacher is wrong.

The sad thing is the second job pays better than the teaching job does!

While I'm not trying to detract from the discussion at hand, I do have a question that is germane and should probably be explored in another thread: How much can we trust studies like this to be scientifically sound and unbiased? I was just listening to the Glenn Beck show (with fill-in host Bob Lonsberry), and he mentioned this study and the numbers. Although I don't agree with Lonsberry's religious views, I think that he did make a good point in saying that the Guttmacher Institute, which was responsible for this study, is not an impartial academic research organization (see http://www.guttmacher.org/ ). Even the original MSNBC article cited at the top of this thread describes the Guttmacher Institute as a "think tank."

Digital- The high moral standard for my pastor should be the same high moral standard you and I should follow.

Since you seem to believe that my pastors moral standard should be higher is unfair because what you are inferring is that you and I can lower our moral standard.

However if my pastor were running an adult bookstore no doubt she would lose her job as the pastor of my church.

This is very interesting Chris!

Digitaldextor, are you Catholic? I'm not implying any negative connotations by that. The Catholic faith came to mind in the last couple of posts because that is a religious group that does hold its clergy to a different standard than the general population.

I've a good friend, who is catholic. I plan to ask them about this.

I'm curious how they differentiate their clergy and reconsile (however you spell it) that with fundemental human equality.

That standard is the vow of celibacy. It means a Catholic Priest makes a vow he will never get married.

I'm not sure I call it a standard but it is certainly a vow as you have said DD.

Heck, I'd take more sex AFTER marriage.

Try the veal.

The clerical vows of celibacy and poverty were exactly what I had in mind.

I understand the desire to have celibate priests, but with all due respect, I think the Eastern Orthodox have it right.

Let priests marry.

And the Eastern Rite are still considered 'catholic' by the Roman Rite anyway. So what's the big deal.

Herb

Well I do agree Herb. And why not women priests too. There have been rumblings.

Point of information from earlier: A teacher moonlighting at a strip club (both legal jobs) would probably lose his/her license under the "Ethical Standards" provision of the Teachers Standards and Practices, the state licensure agency. Teacher may not be fired, but rather would no longer be employable as a teacher.

Other otherwise perfectly legal acts could also result in loss of license, such as public drunkenness, or too many social visits to a student's house (even if mom/dad are home). Of course, getting all Mary Kay LeTourneau with a student easily violates the ethical standard, as well as many legal ones. Of course, now that they are both of age, Mary Kay and the father can legally do anything they want to do together, include getting married - which they did.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how you find your way back to the topic of this thread.

I'm still wondering what happened to sex AFTER marriage.

I think more couples would be happy if they have a sexless marriage. Sex always seems to mess things up.
Just my 2 cents

I thought marriage was the end of sex! You mean there is sex after marriage?

Isin't that why most couples get married. So they can have endless amounts of sex???

That's what I thought! Anyone tell the women that is how it is supposed to be?

I still seem to be having endless amounts of sex. It's just that I'm the only one in the room at the time.

Sutton, your posts always just crack me up.

Pump em and dump em!
Hit it and quit it!

Things to see and people to DO!

Those sound like Mr. Clinton's slogans, not that of a NEO-CON!!!!!!!! [Trixter-influenced accents].

Herbert Milhous N.

Question for all:
Who respects the sanctity of marriage more, (s)he who lives with someone for a period of time, makes certain that person is(or isn't) "the one", and then marries, or the person who repeatedly marries and divorces before finding "the one"?

Please support your answer.

Neither. Both. How in the Hell is anyone supposed to answer that with a straight face? There are a million variables. Just the individual interpretations alone makes my head spin. To say nothing about what constitutes " sanctity."

I don't believe there is an answer that is any more right than another.

And I think that's the point, right?

Anyway, that's how I support my answer.

It's not my place to judge what other people choose to do with their private lives.

And the only marriage whose sanctity I have any control over is my own.

Preach it Sutton!

Okay, you got me... it was really just a question for Herb.

"Who respects the sanctity of marriage more, (s)he who lives with someone for a period of time, makes certain that person is(or isn't) "the one", and then marries, or the person who repeatedly marries and divorces before finding "the one"?"

Neither.

It's a false premise to assume that either respects the sanctity of marriage.

Bad question.

Herbert Milhous Nixon II

So who does then? What's a good question?

I would love to see some solid support for the idea that said sanctity is anything more than whatever any of us thinks it is.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sanctity

1. holiness, saintliness, or godliness.
2. sacred or hallowed character: the inviolable sanctity of the temple.
3. a sacred thing.

All of these definitions do nothing to speak to the issue of said sanctity being what each of us thinks it is.

In fact, their general nature strongly supports exactly what I just wrote. Thanks for helping me out on that one Herb!

Man says you can define it anyway you want.

Everything's grey.

Just don't try to play games with God.

Herb

...who has only spoken through man.

Ha!

I've cried out to God many times while enjoying some awesome sactimony before marriage.

(chuckles)

Herb said>>>
Those sound like Mr. Clinton's slogans, not that of a NEO-CON!!!!!!!! [Trixter-influenced accents].

Much like DUHbya's words...

God told me to ATTACK Iraq!
Send more troops my kids won't need to fight!
It's not my mess to figure out it will be the next Presidents....

No wonder they call him "DUH"bya.....