This is the 63rd anniversary of the "day that will live in infamy" as FDR told us. What are your thoughts about that? I heard something on Fox about it, but has there been anything on the other networks? My dad enlisted on that day as did I 25 years to the day later.

Wayne:

You seem to be having a little problem with your math today.

Leap years. He used leap years.

What?

I don't know.

You both probably think America deserved to be attacked don't you?

No.

We just wish you were more smarter. That's all.

Wayne, you know that was a cheap shot. It is OK to miss a math problem. My Dad was already in uniform on that day 65 years ago and was part of the occupation forces. I wish Iraq was like post-war Japan.

That was a cheap shot. They are more interested in hating America than anything else. I wish we had the support for America now that we did in World War 2.

Me too.

Totally.

Why do you think we don't?

Good question. I think the media takes some of the blame. We have much more media at our disposal than we did back then.

Strike one.

OK. The reason we don't have the kind of support for the Iraq war as we did in WW II is because of the media. That was what came to your mind first.

What comes to your mind next?

Media is #1 reason. What's #2?

Lets see what the others think.

No no - I'm asking YOU. In a genetlemanly manner and with an open heart. No cussing either. But don't get distracted by that.

What's your #2?

Do you have a #2 reason?

I appreciate your gentlemanly manner, really I do. but I don't want to dominate here.

Or maybe you could at least talk about what, specifically, the media has done to make it so there isn't as much support for the Iraq war as there was for WW II.

Maybe you can talk about that for a while? I'm really interested in what you think on that topic. I mean, you started the thread. You brought up the reason. I'm sure you gave it some serious thought when you posted your ideas.

Again - no cussing. Just honest to goodness talking.

And is it still ok if I disagree with what you may say? Or if I disagree, are you just going to say " Nothing I say is good enough. So I'm not saying anything anymore."?

I hope not Wayne. This seems like the very situation you are always claiming you desire; Open, calm discussion. And look, it's even about a topic YOU brought up. So you even have a head start on the whole thing. You've set a good example. I'm following. Where should we go from here?

Or are we just throwing out random thoughts and this is, you know, it?

You won't dominate Wayne. You can still talk. I'm asking you to talk. It's by invitation. Let's use this opportunity to show that you like to talk in a thread in which there isn't a bunch of cluttered cussing and name-calling. It's the perfect storm for you. All kind and warm and calm. Prove all the others wrong that you really can, you know, just talk about something past a single statement.

I appreciate your openness here. I just didn't want to dominate the thread. Of course you can disagree with me. I welcome disagreement.
Well for starters how about the report on the Iraq war that has been on the news lately? Do you know the book I am talking about? They had an interview on Fox with Tony Snow and an NBC correspondent who claimed that the report disagreed totally with the President about the war and Snow said the reporter was biased.

Are you talking about the Iraq Study Group report?

December 7, 1941

65 years ago our ancensters fought and gave there lives against a sneak attack by our enemy. I honor their memory and their sacrifice's so that I can enjoy the freedom's that they fought and died to protect.

You guys should be ashamed at taking this thread and twisting it into what it has become. Does not matter who started it but please finish it on this thread and start a new one if you want tot continue. Many of you I like and have no problems with but I do not appreciate the way this particular thread has gone sideways on such a noble topic! THIS GOES FOR ALL OF YOU INVOLVED!!!! INCLUDING YOU WAYNE!!!

Thank you to all of the men and women in our armed services past, present, and future for safeguarding this great country and keeping my family safe from those who would do harm to it and it's citizens!

My Thought's and Prayer's are with you always!

Thank You

OK....that came out of anger but darn it....not on this thread.

Cmon guys.....wadda ya say?

Why do you blame me? I wanted this to not be about politics but some people have a one track mind. Some people have such a hatred toward America and Conservatives its unbelievable.

Fair enough request. I don't really think anyone needs to be convinced, again, still, that what happened is somewhat sacred. But it's the nature of a thread sometimes; It morphs. And just because you don't like or agree with the connection I see that still exists, doesn't mean there isn't one.

It's a valid topic - and it's in the vein of the topic started. I happen to agree with Wayne on some of where I think he is heading; Things were different.

I want to explore if they were better or worse or the same. It's a topic I think about often and this event gives it context to me. As loaded as my questions and reputation is for asking them that way, well, OK. But I am talking too. Calmly. Listening. A thread started on a message baord about the topic isn't so sacred that it can't be discussed like this.

But your point is not lost on me.

So, no. I'm not going to finish it here. I respectfully decline.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:08 pm


Are you talking about the Iraq Study Group report?

---
I sure am.There was an exchange over it between Tony Snow and an NBC reporter. I saw it on TV but I can't find it online. Maybe it just happened. I will post it when I find it.

OK - no problem. I'll take your word for it.

So - what do we have so far;

The media is partly to blame for the lack of support for the war in Iraq.

During WW II, this was not the case. Thus the difference.

And to support the idea that the media has unjust influence on the support for the war in Iraq, Wayne, you point to an exchange between the White House Communication Director and an NBC reporter, on Fox news, in which the Communications Director says...what again? You lost me on that part. Tony Snow said what? That the President doesn't agre with everything in the report?

And how does that show that the media is partly to blame for the lack of support fo the war in Iraq?

Hey guys....sorry bout that....I just thought this one was going sideways as so many in the past have done put if there are valid reasons and issues involved please....continue......but please at least keep on topic in honor of the title.

I refuse to go sideways on this one. Not going to have a battle of wits with a one-armed man.

When I was in my early teens, I had a paper route in Spokane. Every single day for the year and a half I had that route, I would stop at one of my customer's house and chit-chat with him (in the summer, get a drink of water out of his hose). He was a World War II vet and he survived Pearl Harbor - he escaped the USS West Virginia. Being fascinated with history, especially of World War II and the Cold War even at that young of an age, I was a sponge, soaking up what he had to say.

20+ years later, I still periodically think about that man on that paper route. I salute him, and every other service person ... if it weren't for these folks, we wouldn't be here in the capacity we are today.

Thank you and God bless.

Has anyone been to the monument in Pearl Harbor? I recommend it to anyone. Its quite a moving experience. One has to live through that to appreciate it.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 9:30 pm


OK - no problem. I'll take your word for it.

So - what do we have so far;

The media is partly to blame for the lack of support for the war in Iraq.

During WW II, this was not the case. Thus the difference.

And to support the idea that the media has unjust influence on the support for the war in Iraq, Wayne, you point to an exchange between the White House Communication Director and an NBC reporter, on Fox news, in which the Communications Director says...what again? You lost me on that part. Tony Snow said what? That the President doesn't agre with everything in the report?

And how does that show that the media is partly to blame for the lack of support fo the war in Iraq?

-----
I apologize but I can't find it online. I think they probably won't post it until tomorrow. I will look for the exchange.

"Has anyone been to the monument in Pearl Harbor? I recommend it to anyone. Its quite a moving experience. One has to live through that to appreciate it."

Not yet.

It is on my very short to-do list before I die however. That and Normandy is right up there too.

I want to see Normandy! My dad was in England in 1944 and was part of the push that happened!

Pearl Harbor is a very somber experience. Standing in front of the wall of names is quite an experience all by itself. To think that those men are all still entombed below where you are standing is somewhat like a religious experience. Makes ones problems really seem quite insignifigent!

Thats exactly how I felt when I was there. It puts things in perspective when one sees the names of the men who died and how old they were. I got a bit emotional when I saw the portrait of the ship going down.

"You...probably think America deserved to be attacked don't you?"

Wayne, you are a jerk.

MM
Wife of Army 82nd Airborne vet, daughter of Korean War Naval Officer - USS Philip, Fletcher class destroyer, the most irradiated US ship (and with my dad) was based out of Honolulu.

I have been to Pearl Harbor and to The USS Arizona Memorial and on the USS Missouri many times. I toss a lei, cry every time and count my blessings and say a prayer for every one of those names on the wall.

Why can't you make any post without insulting me? I guess thats not possible is it.

Why did you feel necessary to make that comment after all I did was point out YOUR mistake?

You can't even graciously admit to making a simple math error?

Was that necessary to say that? Its about an appropriate topic. But you keep twisting everything to suit your political agenda that you are pushing down my throat. Its a shame that you can't help but insult people you don't like. What kind of a mother are you anyway? I bet you insult your own kids!

At least she has kids!

Why?

you and mrs M should both read this scripture:

I think you should read this scripture Pete:

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brothers eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother let me take the speck out your eye when all the time there is a plank in your own? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers eye. Matthiew 7 verses3-5.

Take your scripture and shove it up your ass!

Jesus. I'm fucking doing this, I'm really fucking doing this. Unbelievable. But I'm in a pissy mood and I feel like wasting time.

"Was that necessary to say that? Its about an appropriate topic. But you keep twisting everything to suit your political agenda that you are pushing down my throat. "

Was it necessary to say what? That you fucked up your math? Probably not NECESSARY, per se, but you were going to get corrected, especially when you started the topic in the first place. If you can't get the year right on the anniversary you want to discuss, someone's going to point it out.

But that's not POLITICAL. Math isn't POLITICAL. There's no Democratic and Republican parties in ARITHMETIC. There are no ideologies regarding how to add numbers together to reach a correct sum.

And then, when Merkin, Wife of Army 82nd Airborne vet, daughter of Korean War Naval Officer - USS Philip, Fletcher class destroyer, the most irradiated US ship (and with her dad), MULTIPLE visitor to the site of the attack on our country , points out the mistake you made while discussing an event that apparently means a lot to her, YOU ACCUSE HER OF HATING AMERICA AND HARBORING A SECRET GLEE IN THE ATTACK ON AMERICA.

That's fucked up. Some part of you somewhere should know this. I'm pretty sure you do, because I'm pretty sure this is an act and you've somehow snowed most people with said act in a weird sadomasochistic need to get attention and hijack topics at a rapid rate.

You talk about shame but you've just not only shamed yourself but disparaged the daughter of a WWII vet, the wife of a Korean War Vet, and a mourning woman who pays more respects than most americans ever will to their fighting men and women

And you disparaged her over what?

The fact you can't add.

That's your fair trade. She points out your shit math skills, and you question not only her patriotism and her sense of right and wrong, but a large part of not only what makes her who she is, but what makes this country what it is.

All because you can't deal with someone pointing out a fuckup of yours.

And your reaction isn't sorrow, or regret, it's righteous indignation because she INSULTED YOU somehow by pointing out a) you suck at math and b) you're a jerk for questioning her patriotism in response.

You ARE a jerk for responding like that. Even the people you've snowed into thinking you're an honest, upstanding guy know that's some bullshit you just pulled.

Meanwhile you prance in the thread all exclamation points and happy excitedness about "I WANT TO VISIT NORMANDY!" as if it's fuckin Wally World or something, while standing on some weird moral pedestal that you kick out from underneath yourself every chance you get.

You accuse someone of hating america and being addicted to politics for correcting your shit math, and then you IMMEDIATELY veer the thread into a meditation on the Media's role in the Iraq War?

With a straight face?

Just in this one thread, the evidence that you're being dishonest about your intentions here and your argument style itself is overwhelming. Even crazy, zealous people don't gleefully, smilingly, take the hard left turns you take without justification.

You got your pussy hurt because someone pointed out you suck at math, and you questioned not just them, but their husband, and their father, and their combined patriotism and effort in this war, and you don't even HINT at an apology?

There's something wrong with that.

What makes it even doubly wrong is that you chose to honor THIS day, of all days, in the thread you created to discuss it, by shitting all over the honor and respect this woman pays to the veterans, including the ones in her family. Over a math error. On the internet. That's your grand effort to pay respects to the troops. To use the internet to accuse a woman you've never met of being a traitor on the day she remembers her father's sacrifice and her husbands sacrifice.

She at least had enough respect for the day to get the fuckin math right.

All you have is your tipped over pedestal and the strange faith of a few posters here who take you at face value because they can't see the obvious signs that you're either a) faking it or b) certifiably socially maladjusted to the point of needing help.

And in this case, a) and b) are pretty much the same thing.

After all his insane posts tonight, I'd prefer he use the plank.

Fatboy, I think you should talk about Wayne on the air.

Actually I was in Honolulu on December 7th for the 65th Anniversary of the attack. (Just got home night of the 7th - and it was a vacation not specifically because it was the 7th.) I saw the USS Arizona Memorial (very, very moving) as well as the USS Missouri aka "Mighty Mo" where the Japanese surrender of World War II was signed.

The Arizona is STILL leaking oil - you can see the streak going out into the ocean! That's pretty frickin' amazing if you ask me.

There was a public ceremony on the 7th that I could have attended, with Tom "Greatest Generation" Brokaw as the keynote speaker...history buff that I am, I seriously thought about going, but apparently there were a mob of other people going, I would have had to get up at 4AM just to get in line, and then I had to get on a plane in the afternoon...so I went snorkeling instead. Oh, well. Anyone watch it on C-Span?

Andrew

Agreed on the somber experience at the Pearl Harbor Memorial.

I also had the privilege of visiting the Hiroshima Memorial when my son was going to school in Tokyo.

A very similar experience.

I visited the Arizona memorial a few years ago and experienced the same emotional experience. The leaking oil is especially moving as it makes you suddenly realize there is still activity after decades have passed.

The U.S.S. Arizona monument is probably one second in the ability to make one thankful for all we have in this truly great nation and those who have given the ultimate sacrifice in order to insure that for all of us.

Second only to:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1c/Wreaths_at_Arlington_Na tional_Cemetery.jpg/800px-Wreaths_at_Arlington_National_Cemetery.jpg

Merkin

Thank you to you and your family for their effort's in protecting this great country and in safeguarding it for all of our families.

Merry Christmas to you and your family and a best wish's for a Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!

John

> I heard something on Fox about it, but has there
> been anything on the other networks?

The KEX morning news yesterday did talk about it being the 65th anniversary and they mentioned something about a Japanese and an American soldier, who were at each other's throats on Dec. 7 1941, shaking hands and saying "I'm sorry" at the ceremony.

Pearl Harbor happened 32 years before I was born. Since you asked about my thoughts on this day, I would say that it was certainly an important event in American history that would have long-ranging consequences. I believe that what we should do is to try to learn something from it and how it shaped history.

Regarding the side comments on the role of the media, could you please elaborate on how you believe the media shapes public opinion today vs. in the 1940s? The reason that I ask this is that I have been reading a biography of Edward R. Murrow, and I just finished the chapter that talked about how Murrow and his associates covered World War II and the impact that these broadcasts had on the radio listening public. It was a pretty fascinating read.

We didn't hear the media slam FDR back in world war 2 did we? We sure hear a lot of slam today towards Bush. We never see the good that is happening in Iraq at all, its always evil it seems like. I wish we were united on the war in Iraq more than we are. The battle would be easier wouldn't it?

I think saying "I'm sorry" would be a good idea today.

"We didn't hear the media slam FDR back in world war 2 did we? We sure hear a lot of slam today towards Bush. We never see the good that is happening in Iraq at all, its always evil it seems like. I wish we were united on the war in Iraq more than we are. The battle would be easier wouldn't it?

I think saying "I'm sorry" would be a good idea today."

We didn't hear the media slam FDR back then because he actually went through the proper measures of war ... y'know, getting an official declaration of war passed by Congress. Not just a blank check based on shoddy intelligence and a pretense of "doing the right thing".

FDR also didn't LIE to the people of the United States. Dubya has.

Bush didn't lie either. There were 500 WMD's found that your hero Saddam was supposed to declare but did not. why don't we put Saddam back in power? Is that the solution to the conflict? There was opposition to world war 2 also but it wasn't media driven like it is today.

There was opposition to World War II up until Pearl Harbor, yes. The United States people were primarily isolationist, and wanted to stay out of the pending war in Europe. The media of course was as well, at least the public perception.

Two things changed that:

-Pearl Harbor, and
-Hitler declaring war on us.

EVERYONE was involved after that.

Oh, and we are STILL waiting for the evidence on your 500 WMD's you say were found. Give me a link!

There were 500 wmds found. And people did accuse FDR of lying us into war too. The difference is that the media supported FDR but it has become far left.

Wayne, do you really want to go back to a time when the media was censored and could not even show FDR was in a wheelchair?

If Iraq really had WMD, don't you think Saddam would have used them on us when we invaded? Such ignorance.

The media could indeed show FDR in a wheelchair, just as they could have written about JFK's sex life, because that was an open secret among the Washington Press Corps. They CHOSE not to write about these things. The media has simply changed.

FYI, during World War II FDR was most definitely criticized in the media, most famously by Col. Robert McCormick, owner of the Chicago Tribune, who hated Roosevelt and used the Tribune to attack him repeatedly. The Trib even revealed national security secrets, such as the after the battle of Midway when a front page headline noted that the American navy had advanced knowledge of the Japanese plan to attack Midway. Implied was that the Navy had broken the Japanese code, which was a huge, huge advantage to the US during the war; this leak could have been catostrophic. Inexplicably, the Japanese completely missed this and never changed their codes!!!

(For more info on this, see
http://www.americanheritage.com/blog/20066_23_267.shtml
)

I know people remember the World War II era through rose color glasses as a time when 100% of Americans agreed with FDR and the government on everything, but (and I know, I wasn't ALIVE yet), it seems this was far from the case. While Americans were highly patriotic, there was plenty of dissent, too, if you read up on the era.

Andrew

Author: Reinstatepete
Friday, December 08, 2006 - 5:40 pm


If Iraq really had WMD, don't you think Saddam would have used them on us when we invaded? Such ignorance.

-----
Who's ignorant? Saddam did invade Kwait.

That was 16 years ago. If Saddam had WMD, don't you think he would have used it on us when we invaded?

We didn't invade anybody. We got rid of your hero Saddam. He was supposed to declare his WMD's. Have you ever read resolution 1441? That was why we went into Iraq.

"We didn't invade anybody"

Here we go again. Care to defend this statement Herb? Is anyone here willing to try to defend the statement that "we didn't invade anybody"??

I look forward to your feeble defense of your ignorant and patently false statement.

Neither Hitler or Tojo used their Poison gas weapons on us, even when they knew they were losing.

Nwokie, have we invaded anybody recently? Are you willing to say that we HAVE NOT invaded Iraq?

Do you have the guts to tell Wayne he is MISTAKIN'??

"Care to defend this statement Herb?"

Naw. Cut the guy some slack. He's being triple-teamed.

Herb

"There were 500 wmds found."

GIVE US SOME *!^#(*&^!* PROOF!

Resolution 1441 was used as an excuse for the invasion. Saddam stopped reporting WMDs YEARS ago. We ALL know the intelligence used to "justify" the invasion was a bunch of hoo-hoo.

NONE WERE FOUND.

GIVE US PROOF.

If you can't give us proof, shut the hell up. Once again, you have no clue as to what you are babbling about.

Wish there was a "MUTE" button in here anymore. It's like a continuous loop repeat of the Jerry Springer show in here anymore!!!!!!

Wayne and Herb sitting on the Right side of the stage (by themselves).

And all us other Lefties on the left side of the stage because if you don't see things there way you can't possibly be a conservative.

Everyone has two dozen eggs.......

Ready...Now throw them at each other!!!!!

And it just keeps looping and looping and looping....

AAAhhhhhhhhh

Stop it already......

Author: Brianl
Friday, December 08, 2006 - 8:12 pm


"There were 500 wmds found."

GIVE US SOME *!^#(*&^!* PROOF!

Resolution 1441 was used as an excuse for the invasion. Saddam stopped reporting WMDs YEARS ago. We ALL know the intelligence used to "justify" the invasion was a bunch of hoo-hoo.

NONE WERE FOUND.

GIVE US PROOF.

If you can't give us proof, shut the hell up. Once again, you have no clue as to what you are babbling about.

----
There is no bigger waste of time than providing proof to a liberal who has his mind made up.

*SPLAT!*

!

Wayner AGAIN ignorantly said>>>
There were 500 wmds found.

WHERE IS THE PROOF?????? Do you have anything BUT a FAUXNews article???

How about me.....I truly would like to see that out here in Right Center field. I never knew they actually found any and would love to see the document's on that.

This thread is about World War 2. I would appreciate it if you would stick to the topic.

Don't open the door, if you are at all worried about that which might come through!

OK....agreed.

Start tangent:
Could you post that in one of the many threads related to IRAQ?
End tangent:

Now that you have your answer, I deleted the post.

All this deleting, editing and typing passwords is hard work!

"This thread is about World War 2. I would appreciate it if you would stick to the topic."

YOU MORONIC MENTAL MIDGET!

YOU changed the topic at 3:49 PM and have brought it up FIVE times in less than 7 hours.

Edit: A ripple in the timeline, nothing more...

I think I will dump that post as well since it no longer makes sense.

This editing thing is problematic though, sorta' like going back in a time machine and changing history which then totally screws up later events that happened on the previous time line.

In the end we run the risk of creating a mess when not all participants delete their posts.

Randy: (From that other universe where this makes sense!) The timeline is a biggie for me. Good bad or ugly, it really should be there.

That's one of the very best things about this kind of conversation. Your own words are there for the consideration later.

...hopes Dan is successful with the posting history!

Still, the quick post 'n delete is interesting. Only real problem is knowing if it was ever read. Without that, it's more thearaputic than anything!

I have been waiting for a response from the intended recipient this evening before deleting, but this also makes more work for the others involved if they want to dump theirs.

Now that we've totally crapped in the middle of a serious thread about 12/7/41, should we time warp out of all this?

Now I have a song from a particular cult movie stuck in my head.

On second thought we might as well leave it. This thread was turning to crap anyway.

Damn, I'm lost!

I stay away for most of the day and I miss all the interesting stuff!



By the way, FBR, (and to the rest of you who have my back) I think I love you.

FatGirlMerkin (or is it FatMerkinGirl?)

Mrs M,

This all started when a troll (not one of the usual suspects) started a particularly nasty thread attacking others in this forum (while drunk as he later admitted). The troll in question started showing a little remorse as he presumably began to sober up. Another poster suggested everyone delete all their posts in that thread hoping the thread would completely vanish since there was still time to do so. Before it was all over, Dan deleted the thread for us, and made a few other alterations on the board. A couple of thread titles have changed slightly.

I may end up sending Dan some money after all.

For which I am grateful. Now if we can only talk about the subject if thats not asking too much.

"Now if we can only talk about the subject if thats not asking too much."

Hey, YOU are the one who brought it up. All I did was respond.

Don't blame ME for changing the subject, son.

"There is no bigger waste of time than providing proof to a liberal who has his mind made up."

Well, make this conservative's mind up by giving him proof.

The truth is, you have no proof, no link to a site or news article stating that we found 500 WMD's, so you run and hide behind your "you liberals have your mind made up, so what's the use?" mantra. You have no proof because there IS no proof.

And that door slams SHUT!

*plonk*

Brian keeps bringing up the WMD's and who cares? The topic is about world war 2, not about Bush. You need to start a separate thread about WMD's. Even if there were proof it wouldn't change anybody's mind. The topic was about the attack on Pearl Harbor. FDR was blamed for lying us into the war too.

So, has the United States invaded Iraq or not? Which is it?

Anybody?

Bueller??

Yes. Even Wayne knows he's mistaken on that. That's why he doesn't want to talk about it anymore.

But yes. We did. And now we occupy it.

"FDR was blamed for lying us into the war too."

Wow, you backing the most liberal, big-government President of all time? I'm SHOCKED!

Oh BTW, FDR **DID** get us involved before we officially declared. We had soldiers in Iceland and naval vessels helping with the shipping of goods to Europe, and they DID engage the Germans. How about the Flying Tigers, the all-volunteer Americans who flew P-40s against the Japanese in the China campaign starting in 1940? That was before the declaration of war. Don't tell me Lend-Lease wasn't a war effort as well! That started in early 1941, well before we declared war.

FDR kept a lid on it (yes, with the help of many in the media) because he was breaching many laws and getting awfully shady on the Constitution with his acts.

My point is every President has "lied" us into war. My question is is America a good country or not?

"My point is every President has "lied" us into war."

So you then admit that Dubya lied to get us into Iraq?

So then Abraham Lincoln lied to start the Civil War? So then Truman lied for us to get involved in Korea? Did Woodrow Wilson, one of our most isolationist Presidents, lie to get us involved in World War I?

**ALL** Presidents LIED to get us involved in war? FDR didn't "lie" to get us involved in World War II, he just happened to see it coming two years before we declared war, and went about building a war machine.

"Brian keeps bringing up the WMD's and who cares? The topic is about world war 2, not about Bush. You need to start a separate thread about WMD's."

Bullshit. The topic is about whatever you want to tease it into being at any given moment in order to shower yourself in vitriol and whatever your sadomasochistic troll heart desires.

YOU brought up Bush and Iraq
YOU brought up the Media
YOU brought up politics
YOU plodded on with the WMD's
YOU changed from "He didn't lie" to "They all lie"
YOU are the one trying to drive this "tribute and memories" thread into a shitty polemic

YOU are the one discussing fucking EVERYTHING BUT WORLD WAR II AND PEARL HARBOR in the thread YOU STARTED about PEARL HARBOR and then immediately turned into a slander-fest for the people who have more of a personal tie to the day than you ever have or ever WILL HAVE.

Again--you kicked off this thread by questioning an entire family's PATRIOTISM over a MATH ERROR. There's going to be accountability for that, you miserable old fuck. There certainly had better be, because the shit you pulled and are now currently trying to ignore is tired. Nevermind that people are only all too willing to let you veer away from the pile of shit you dropped at the top of the thread by getting wrapped up in your intellectually and emotionally false faux-arguments.

I'm not.

What you did to Merkin in this thread on the anniversary of Pearl Harbor was despicable and anti-american and I want you to own up to that.

"I think saying "I'm sorry" would be a good idea today."

I think you're right. I think you shoud re-read that asswhipping I gave your old troll ass, think on it a second, and then come back and say "I'm sorry" to the people you're ham-handedly trying to serve up with this obvious bullshit.

Bush saw it coming too and did the exact same thing. I think the difference is personal more than anything else. One is a conservative and the other is a liberal and thats it.FDR was a liberal and therefore his "lying" is okay.

"I think saying "I'm sorry" would be a good idea today."

I think you're right. I think you shoud re-read that asswhipping I gave your old troll ass, think on it a second, and then come back and say "I'm sorry" to the people you're ham-handedly trying to serve up with this obvious bullshit.

-------
I think YOU should say that for the foul language you used there.

No, it's not that easy, not with me. Me saying "fuck" or "Shit" is in no way comparable to what you did up there in the thread, not by a longshot, and there's no way you can convince anyone here of that.

I mean, lets review, shall we?

Assuming you are an old retired former post office employee with a burning fire for america and patriotic red white and blue blood running through your veins, let's review your day of honoring Pearl Harbor

step 1: Watch Fox News
step 2: gain inspiration from news coverage
step 3: walk to computer
step 4: log onto radio messageboard
step 5: post tribute thread for Pearl Harbor
step 4: have anniversary error pointed out to you plainly
step 6: ACCUSE PEOPLE OF TREASON AND POLITICAL RAILROADING
step 7: engage in trashing of tribute thread while maintaining people correcting your math problem are TREASONOUS and ANTI-AMERICAN
step 8: Express wish to visit other war memorial with the fervor of an 8-year old wishing to go to Disneyland
step 9: bring up 30 different other subjects, none of which have to do with Pearl Harbor
step 10: lather, rinse repeat.

Wow. What a great tribute, Wayne. You did yourself and the memory of the troops real proud there, what a bang up job. If there was a medal for old crusty retired messageboard trolls, they should pin one on you for your bravery above and beyond the call of duty, for truly exemplifying what a real patriot is

A real patriot is apparently a guy hiding behind a computer maligning the good name of real veterans families on the 65th anniversary of Pearl Harbor by calling them traitors all for the high crime of CRITICIZING YOUR MATH SKILLS.

Again, at least she had the respect to get the year right. You didn't even have that. And you definitely don't have the respect to speak on patriotism after insulting her family and herself due to your inability to FUCKING COUNT.

No--my transgression in no way equals yours, not in this lifetime. You see, I would never be as crass and low as to do what you did for a reason as petty as yours. To say "Fuck" is in no way comparable to using the day of December 7th to accuse people of treason over the internet to make yourself feel better.

And I think you know that, too. It would explain why out of the two posts directed at you by me, the only, the ONLY thing you can even attempt to call me on is the cusswords.

Because everything else is indefensible by you. EVERYTHING.

Which is why you should apologize, push yourself back from the computer, and think for a second about what kind of tribute you just paid to the people of Pearl Harbor with this festering, runny pile of effluence you just dumped into cyberspace.

Stop and think about how SMALL that makes you. How completely OPPOSITE of how large you feel this thing is. That when you boil it down, it's a bitter old man in his old house completely crapping on the tradition and the meaning of the word patriotism in an effort to convince himself he's worth more than he really is.

And then tell me you shouldn't apologize for your garbage.

The only thing I read in your posts at all is your profanity. If you want to communicate at all with me you have to watch your language. This thread was started by me to get your mind off of Bush and onto the tragedy that happened on December 7th 1941. I get the feeling you probably think America is so evil it deserved being attacked by the Japaneeze

"The only thing I read in your posts at all is your profanity"

No, it's not. I know better. I know it makes for a nice little "reset" button for you, but it doesn't work that way.

Again, I'm not gonna be dragged into a discussion about whether profanity is the horrible life-destroying insult you want to portray it as.

I want you to stare for a second at your posts, and then my posts, and think about what it is you're trying to do, in your house, on your computer, and think about exactly how that is reflecting on you, and your disservice to the entire concept of patriotism, that you continue to use it lamely as a trollish brickbat on the internet for your own personal reasons.

All your weird half-ass reality twisting doublebacks aren't going to change the fact that your words are right up there and they paint a very different story of who you are as a person and how small your soul must be to deal out accusations that serious from behind a computer in reaction to having poor math skills.

Again, you will reflect on that and own up to your mistake and apologize for the insult to the wife of a serviceman, the daughter of a serviceman, and someone who has spent more time and more emotional honesty on paying tribute to the men and women of this country than you ever have.

I would appreciate if the rest of my fellow posters here would follow suit in not letting you hijack threads or steer them to other subjects until you face up to this one indefensible action and address it head on without trying to deflect it 30 different directions.

I would appreciate it if you could make a post with insulting or swearing. I think others would appreciate it if you would communicate like a gentleman

/me runs up to Fayboyroberts and gives him one hell of a hi-5!

Nope. I think he's making the best point. And he's using a cuss-word. Big deal.

He can't make any point without using a cuss word.

Not true.

Where? I haven't heard him say anything that wasn't an insult or a cuss word.

Yet he still made a point.

Several. And they are excellent!

Spot on!

I think cuss words are fucking killer.

No, Wayne. I know you (or the persona you're adopting) like to search for any available "out" to wriggle out from the weight of your irresponsible and destructive behavior, but my language is not that out. That's not an acceptable avenue for escaping the responsibility of your words. And if you don't have the strength inside you to stand by them after they've been dissected, then you should do yourself a favor and think a lot harder before you let your verbal diarrhea fly all over the computer

Because whether or not I cussed has NOTHING to do with what you typed, and it has NOTHING to do with owning up to the garbage you spewed and the anti-american invective you threw at people because they corrected your math mistake. One does not follow the other. Me cussing doesn't erase the fact you said those things, and you need to be held responsible for your actions as a poor, poor excuse for a patriot. My language doesn't change the reality, and it doesn't erase your words and your inability to look at them and address them for the poisonous, small, petty and destructive things they are. You don't get to pretend they don't exist and don't you don't get to judge what was typed and what wasn't just because there's a cussword in it.

It's there. You read it. You digested it. You can be cowardly and small and pretend to ignore it and write it off because there's a 4 letter word in it, or you can be honest for once and be held accountable for the disgusting tenor and "content" as it were, of your posts.

My cussing doesn't erase any of that, whether you say it does or not, and the sooner you realize that, the sooner you can repent for the sin against your country you just committed.

Fatboy, I think a parody of Wayne would be excellent fodder for your radio show.

I'm not sure I want to unleash that sort of of virus over the air

Yeah, could get ugly.

Fats for what it's worth, I believe you are looking at the real deal. No persona.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 3:50 pm


Yet he still made a point.

----
What point? I didn't see anything but insulting and cussing. He clearly has an agenda that has nothing to do with what this thread was supposed to be about. He is obviously part of the hate America first crowd who thinks we deserved the attack on Pearl Harbor.

You need to apologize for your poor treatment of Mrs M.

There it is. Nice, simple, clean and in small pieces, just the way you like it.

Now, suck it up and apologize.

Or, are you gonna pull a W and stay the course?

I'm not sure even Hendrie could have pulled this one off.

Author: Missing_kskd
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 6:21 pm


You need to apologize for your poor treatment of Mrs M.

There it is. Nice, simple, clean and in small pieces, just the way you like it.

Now, suck it up and apologize.

Or, are you gonna pull a W and stay the course?

-----
Who are you to tell me who to apologize to? Mrs M is the last person I want to do that to.

Ok, it's stay the course then.

Just don't go crying here about your treatment. You've yielded the high ground.

Okay but you aren't my parent.

Look how infantile your position has become. You started the thread with "noble" intentions (that you ceded later by tying it into politics, the very subject you said you didn't want in the thread) and by the end of it you've become a 4 year old: "Stop using bad words, you're not my daddy."

Apparently your daddy's lessons were lost on you, or you've forgotten them in your old age, because no man worth his salt would have pulled the stuff you did on the surviving daughter of a war veteran, or the wife of a war veteran, simply because she corrected your math error.

you not only refuse to apologize, but you continue pulling wild, baseless accusations out of thin air in yet another transparent attempt to get people to whip you silly, to fulfill your weird sadomasochistic need to be punished at home via your internet connuction--instead of just apologizing like an honest, good man with pride in himself would have done for making such an obvious mistake.

Sure, KSKD isn't your parent. But someone apparently should be. Because your actions are the actions of someone who needs that sort of parental guidance to stop the downward spiral of a person slowly losing their mind in the void of the internet.

My agenda is nothing more than getting you to face yourself in the mirror and take stock of the small, petty person staring back out at you with sad, dead eyes and a buzzing head full of contradictions and self-hate.

There's no more agenda than that. Apologize to the daughter of a war veteran for doubting her patriotism. Apologize to the wife of a war veteran for accusing her of treason. There's no shame in admitting you did wrong, but there's tons of shame in denying your error when it comes to something as intrinsically un-american as diluting the word "patriot" to the level that you have.

I'm sure your real parent would tell you the same. If only you'd remember those lessons and keep them in the front of your brain before you spoke your addled mind.

Who are you, my parent? Who died and left you boss?

And you have only one agenda: my total blind agreement with everything you say.

Except I'm not asking you to agree with anything I say.

I'm asking you to apologize for your poor behavior, your reprehensible actions, and your mean-spirited misuse of the concept of patriotism to justify your indefensible actions in a thread you started with a secret, hidden agenda that you only admitted after you ran into a brick wall of your own design.

I'm not asking you to agree with anything I say, and I've told you what my agenda is. I didn't hide it behind a fake tribute thread that meant nothing to me, like you did. I didn't sneak it in sideways halfway through a derailing post. I made it very clear, very blatant, and very up-front in every single one of my posts directed to you

I want you to apologize for the disgusting way you reacted to a grown adult correcting your math error. Because grown adults don't accuse people of treason and disrespect their families for something so simple.

That is the entirety of the agenda.

No one had to die for me to hope that you'd do the right thing, no one except for Jesus, and that's a lesson I'd have thought you'd learned by now. I can only imagine you're willfully ignoring it, which makes your behavior doubly shameful.

But if you'd rather cling to spite and anger and lies and misdirection instead of letting all that go, admitting your mistake and seeking forgiveness for it, then that's for you to live with, I guess. I can only imagine how disappointed those close to you must be to look into your face and see that disregard for higher ideals like patriotism, respect and forgiveness. It's an ugly mask you wear, Wayne.

But it's very telling that you still have yet to take, head-on, a single one of my arguments. All you've got is "you're a potty mouth" and "you're not my daddy." and that carries as much weight as a snowflake.

I think we have the next Hendrie in our midst.

Oh yeah. No question!

Fats, you missed your calling.

Author: Fatboyroberts
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 7:33 pm


Except I'm not asking you to agree with anything I say.

I'm asking you to apologize for your poor behavior, your reprehensible actions, and your mean-spirited misuse of the concept of patriotism to justify your indefensible actions in a thread you started with a secret, hidden agenda that you only admitted after you ran into a brick wall of your own design.

I'm not asking you to agree with anything I say, and I've told you what my agenda is. I didn't hide it behind a fake tribute thread that meant nothing to me, like you did. I didn't sneak it in sideways halfway through a derailing post. I made it very clear, very blatant, and very up-front in every single one of my posts directed to you

I want you to apologize for the disgusting way you reacted to a grown adult correcting your math error. Because grown adults don't accuse people of treason and disrespect their families for something so simple.

That is the entirety of the agenda.

No one had to die for me to hope that you'd do the right thing, no one except for Jesus, and that's a lesson I'd have thought you'd learned by now. I can only imagine you're willfully ignoring it, which makes your behavior doubly shameful.

But if you'd rather cling to spite and anger and lies and misdirection instead of letting all that go, admitting your mistake and seeking forgiveness for it, then that's for you to live with, I guess. I can only imagine how disappointed those close to you must be to look into your face and see that disregard for higher ideals like patriotism, respect and forgiveness. It's an ugly mask you wear, Wayne.

But it's very telling that you still have yet to take, head-on, a single one of my arguments. All you've got is "you're a potty mouth" and "you're not my daddy." and that carries as much weight as a snowflake.

-----------\
Who are you, my parent? What right have you to tell me or anyone to apologize? why should I do that? What wrong have I done except disagree with the person? Thats the man issue here. I don't dare disagree with a liberal do I?
you are telling me to change my mind aren't you? I can't do that. Why can't we agree to disagree? Is that asking too much? Maybe it is.


Incidently you have backed off of the profanity and thats appreciated. Now if only you could learn some tact.

ROTFLMAO. Now I know I'm going to send Dan some money.

Between this and the comment about Abe Lincoln using wiretapping, maybe I was all wrong about banning anyone.

It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing, Wayne. No question was posed to you. There's no fundamental misunderstanding that you're at the wrong end of. You can ask "are you my parent" another 3 straight times but that won't magically turn into an apology for the wrong that you've done, the wrong that's already been spelled out for you.

And it'd be pretty hard for you to say you don't know what that is, since you just proved you ARE reading my posts beyond the profanity by noticing the lack thereof in following responses by me.

You don't get to automatically re-define what the issue is or is not, and you don't get to just dream up false scenarios that aren't occuring so you can defend yourself from the false accusations that AREN'T being leveled at you. There is no dream shield here that you can deflect these truths with.

I'm not telling you to change your mind, because the issue doesn't have anything to do with convincing you of an ideology, unless of course you consider the concepts of right, wrong, forgiveness and regret "liberal ideology"

And we both know they're not, and we both know that's not what I'm asking of you.

What I'm asking is not a conversion. It's not a renunciation. It's an apology for behavior that is unbecoming of an old retired man towards a married woman who commited the unforgivable sin of pointing out your mistakes. An apology for questioning her patriotism and her love of country because you can't count. An apology for, by association, slamming her husband and her father, veterans both, for being associated with her.

That's the wrong that you've done--you called into question the very fiber of a person because she pointed out your math error.

The word tact coming from you is like a murderer trying to stab someone to death with the handle of his knife. You're just cutting your hands up and slowly bleeding out.

Also, I'd like to thank you for quoting the entirety of my last post as it gives you another chance to stare hard at your words and actions and judge them to be worthy of your self-appointed mantle of self-righteousness.

By any standard, I fail to see how you can't recognize that you fall short. There's an easy solution to this, but I can only assume pride and self-hate is what's stopping you. I'm not trying to be your parent, but someone should have taught you these lessons before you hit your sixties and stumbled onto the internet.

If your parents didn't, I don't mind picking up their slack.

You can gain some self-respect back and do the right thing, or you can continue to marginalize yourself and run in circles. The only person you're hurting by maintaining this hardline is yourself, and I'm sure you'll figure that out soon, even if it's only in the small, quiet moments at night, just before you fall asleep, when that loud, nagging worry in the pit of your stomach tugs at your sanity and a fleeting fear lights up the front of your brain.

We all go alone, yunno. The question is whether you'll enjoy the company when you go.

I imagine at this point, it's not gonna be a fun trip for you.

Yeah Wayne, it's frustrating to read things like " You should do this " and " you'd best do that." isn't it?

Like when you demand that people should read scripture and pray to Jesus.

Now you know how it feels.

If I had a boat, I would name it " The Sea-word."

Just to make Wayne mad.

What do I have to do to get your respect? I still think the only way I can get any is to agree with whatever you say. One thing I am not is alone. I have many friends. I sleep well. I have God in my life. I don't feel guilty of anything. Why should I apologize? There were insults hurled at me from the other party and it sounds like you want me to turn the other cheek so people can insult me some more. I have to fight back eventually. I certainly do not have any hate either toward myself or toward others. One thing a Christian is supposed to do is love one another. I try to do that.
What mistake have I committed that deserves such action? I still wonder if its the mistake of disagreeing with the opinion of a liberal. Thats not something I should have to apologize for.And since you are not my parent I do wish you would stop making me do something I shouldn't have to do.

You have backed off of your bad language and are trying to be tactful I think and thats appreciated. When someone insults and swears at me its very hard for me to feel the need to apologize to him for anything.

Could we maybe talk about what the thread was originally about, namely world war 2? Do you have any thoughts at all about the attack on Pearl Harbor? Have you been to the monument at all? I have and it was very moving.

But you never want to excange ideas. You just want to state them.

I am here for a different reason than that. Shit, just TODAY I gained some new perspective on a subject. I just don't think you are interested in learning anything new.

No big deal, I guess. But I wonder why you are even here anymore. You are a human brick wall with everything you believe. Everybody hates that. And just because YOU haven't helped anybody change their perspective on a subject, doesn't mean that the reast of us feel like it's possible to do with others. But just when I feel like someone is making a strong enough point to be really considered, you come in here with your absolutes. And they are absolutes that don't stand up to ONE SINGLE FOLLOW UP QUESTION.

"What do I have to do to get your respect?"

You ask that as if you want it. But you don't. You have said EXACTLY that you don't want that in dozens of posts.

So, you know, lack of respect is what you get.

So hunker down with your friends and your God and your bed. That's fine. In the meanwhile, I'm going to continue having an adult conversation from time to time.

Then, other times, I'll be stupid too. But it won't be my core...I hope.

Surely you can see that.

I'm not going to correct my spelling errors tonight.

And judging ( Amy ) by the amount of beer I have, they are just going to get worse.

CJ...

You get JO's message to look in the Web Freelance thread yesterday?

Yeah.

I really need to focus on that project. I need to find a creative collaborator who " gets me."

Jesus, I'm turing into Oprah.

If I buy a ticket to your show will you give me a new car?

BTW....

End: Tangent

TY

Author: Chickenjuggler
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 9:24 pm


But you never want to excange ideas. You just want to state them.


Idobut the leftists don't want that unless people agree with them.


I am here for a different reason than that. Shit, just TODAY I gained some new perspective on a subject. I just don't think you are interested in learning anything new.

No big deal, I guess. But I wonder why you are even here anymore. You are a human brick wall with everything you believe. Everybody hates that.

noteveryone. I don't think Herb thinks that way. Just people who can't handle someone that thinks differently than they do.Do you want this forum to be just for liberals? I would hope you have more tolerance than that


And just because YOU haven't helped anybody change their perspective on a subject, doesn't mean that the reast of us feel like it's possible to do with others. But just when I feel like someone is making a strong enough point to be really considered, you come in here with your absolutes. And they are absolutes that don't stand up to ONE SINGLE FOLLOW UP QUESTION.

IANSWER EVERY ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS!! the problem is you don't like the answers I give and any answer you don't like is considered a non-answer. What I resent is the way people are pushing their moral relativism down others throats.



"What do I have to do to get your respect?"

You ask that as if you want it. But you don't. You have said EXACTLY that you don't want that in dozens of posts.

andyou have said there is only one way to gain respect: AGREE!!!


So, you know, lack of respect is what you get.

So hunker down with your friends and your God and your bed. That's fine. In the meanwhile, I'm going to continue having an adult conversation from time to time.

is it possible to have an adult conversation with someone you don't agree with? Thats been a struggle with you in the past but I would say you are improving.


hen, other times, I'll be stupid too. But it won't be my core...I hope.

Surely you can see that.

sure I can see that but I make mistakes too. My problem is that who around here knows how to forgive wrong except maybe Herb and me?

Have not seen you offer up the document on the 500 WMD that the US found. But if you made a mistake that is OK I forgive you. Just need to know either way. K

Could we talk about world war 2 and find another thread for WMD's?

(offers popcorn bowl)

Anyone?

Sure, thanks. How 'bout some Henry's? Do you prefer the Root Beer or Orange & Cream?

Wayne said - " IANSWER EVERY ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS!!"

And he said it in blue.

That seems fair. OK - point me to where you answered the request for proof of the 500 WMDs. And then point me to the thread in which you proved that Lincoln used wiretapping.

Then we'll continue those topics in those threads and leave this one for WW II talk.

Orange and Cream for sure!

Goodnight Everyone

Seen this movie last night and it had a lousy ending.

L8R

Have you ever noticed the very slight wood flavor in Henry's Orange & Cream? I assume it's there to complete the taste sensation of an orange and cream-cickle on a wooden stick.

Yes I have!

Like it and completely agree.

Author: Missing_kskd
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:03 pm


(offers popcorn bowl)

Anyone?

----
I love popcorn. What World War 2 movies have you seen? Casablanca is a favorite of mine of course.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:13 pm


Wayne said - " IANSWER EVERY ONE OF YOUR QUESTIONS!!"

And he said it in blue.

That seems fair. OK - point me to where you answered the request for proof of the 500 WMDs. And then point me to the thread in which you proved that Lincoln used wiretapping.

Then we'll continue those topics in those threads and leave this one for WW II talk.

-----
I do want to answer the questions but I think we are sidestepping too much if we do that here in this thread.