1. Unless one buys into their secular 'progressive' agenda, expect to be mocked and belittled.

2. Although liberals talk a good game, to them, diversity applies to thought. Leftists cannot handle an opinion at odds with their own. To the left, the 1st Amendment ONLY APPLIES TO THEM.

3. The surest way to see a leftist melt down is to discuss something they're afraid of or don't understand. This typically includes the 2nd Amendment, faith and anything to do with traditional family values.

There are things in this world, known to be true, absolutely true, undisputed.

Fallacies we know to be means of making a point, that are not valid on their own merits. This includes things like self-supporting, circular arguments, faulty cause and effect, etc...

http://www.criticalthinking.org

Essentially, a sound argument must be consistant with the rules of logic, for it to be accepted as being valid and reasonable to discuss, when said discussion is presented as a matter of truth and law.

There are others, but these two will do.

BTW: You can get the whole mini-course set from CriticalThinking for under $60! One hell of a deal, given the information provided.

KSKD mocked you and belittled you during the course of no less than 6 different means of bringing some sanity to the discussion. This after asking for suggestions and help too!

Here now as KBBT, when the discussion warrants (and right now it does not do that much at all), I'm not gonna do that.

You are not worth it, frankly, neither is Wayne.

You two do a few things that pervert the spirit of discussion.

-When presented with hard questions, aimed at reconsiling your view with the above, you dodge. KSKD made a list of dodges seen here to date. There are at least 8 of them seen over and over and over...

Your response in particular was interesting: We get Ultimate Truth in response. I'm not gonna go there, but to say you refuse to recognize the long established boundary between faith, fact and truth.

That's deception, manupulation and often an outright lie.

This makes discussion useless, which brings me to the second thing you two do.

You leverage this forum to push your brand of faith, with no regard, for it's value as a forum. Frankly, if you can make enough noise then you are heard and that's good enough to satisfy your need for your faith to be ever present, again often without regard to the actual subject at hand.

That's theft Herb. Theft from those who have contributed here to build the value that, in turn, provides you with a venue to blather on. Same goes for Wayne. Neither of you would be here doing this, if it didn't get you something.

It's also theft from Dan, in that his efforts become your pulpit.

One other thing, that's important to note, is that you judge others based on your arbitrary ideal of faith and Ultimate Truth. You and Wayne also make heavy use of arbitrary labels (these are false by definition, thus cannot be used to actually make a worthy point on that basis alone), thus reinforcing the judgement and discrimination without even taking the time to articulate your discrimination with plain words understood by all.

That's discrimination Herb. Bigotry for short.

Finally, you advocate that others do these things, despite your own good book quite clearly stating these things to be sins. In the law, which you largely fail to recognize unless it supports your arbitrary faith, these things are crimes.

Any faith that accepts harm to others, is a false faith on that basis alone. You are a liar, crook and a bigot.

No matter where you come from or what your ideology is, these things are known to be wrong and the reasons for them being wrong known to us as a race for a good long time.

They are absolutely wrong and as such cannot be used to make a point with anyone but those who share your particular perversion of faith.

Go back through the posting history buddy. It's all there for the grim reading. While you are at it, go through other posts too.

Those people here, you label as leftists, are:

-not always left leaning
-not guilty of the above, but for a small transgression here and there --you and Wayne by far and away have the top marks in this regard,
-have pointed this out to no avail.

Finally, on matters of the 2nd amendment, faith, and traditional family values, let's take just a moment to see what KBBT / KSKD is all about:

-each and everyone of my adopted foster children have been though gun training programs. They all know the importance of a fire arm, it's contribution to our freedom, and the check it serves on our own government

-each and every one of my adopted foster children know what faith is, are free to choose (and they have!), and know their family will support them absolutely in whatever path of worship they find themselves on

-the family unit is of paramount importance. My family, in particular, had to struggle to form, despite a lot of pressure for it not to form. This coming from my own religious family not wanting to accept my adopted foster children as being the same as biological ones. And you wonder why I question religion! You have no idea.

Our family does not discriminate, it does not lie, it does not steal, it does not kill, it does not covet (beyond those childhood tendancies we all have), it does not commit any of the crimes the law, or faith demand not be committed. It supports one another to the fullest.

The core element of this is trust and honesty with one another. Each member knows, no matter what happens, the others are there to help, love and support.

My family is mixed in race and gender. It accepts all other families, extending the same elementary values articulated above to them, gratis --no strings attached.

We live in a free society, meaning my family understands tolerance is the means by which it is able to exist and thrive. This is true of other families as well.

You were saying asshole?

RISING TO FEET....

CLAPPING HANDS VIGOROUSLY....

WELL SAID Kbbt....WELL SAID!!!!!

Why is Air America bankrupt?

Why is Delta Airlines bankrupt? Because Americans don't like flying and never will?

Why are liberal talk shows like the Ed Schultz Show and the Stephanie Miller Show thriving?

Andrew

Kids raised by Kbbt will turn out better than kids raised by Herb.

Vgis.....
Andrew2 asked you a question......

Why is AAA bankrupt? Maybe its because a left wing station can't make it without our taxpayers money!

KBBT: Why do you mention discrimination at all? Don't you really mean only one thing: Gay marriage? Should I be allowed to marry my cat? Should we have polygamy? I suggest if your answer is no you are just as much for discrimination as either Herb or I am.

thump thump thump, poop poop poop.

"That's theft..."

Only a liberal would describe a conservative's First Amendment right to speak a crime.

When it comes to free speech, Republicans need not apply.

Herb

You don't have a first amendment right to post here.

You are so right Herb. Free speech for liberals only means for people they agree with.

You are all wet.

So much so, it rivals the ignorance of those so much less educated and less economically privileged as yourself(ves).

Free speech is a right.
Ignorance is your choice.

Free speech is only for liberals. Ignorance is something that is only for conservatives. Thats the drift I am getting here.

poop poop poop. thump thump thump.

Wayne, please. See my post on the "what a mess" thread, re: free speech. Stop repeating the same line that just isn't true.

You are smarter than that.

The liberals don't think I should post here because they don't want any conservatives on this board. They prove that I am rigt. Blind agreement and respect are equal to them.

poop poop poop.

Didn't Ringo Starr say something like that in a movie once??

Poo Poo CaCa Shit....!!!

You want to deal with the leftists? There is only one way you can, at least with the ones here: AGREE WITH EVERYTHING THEY SAY!

Wayner ignorantly said>>>>
You are so right Herb. Free speech for liberals only means for people they agree with.

This has got to be the single most assine thing EVER said on this message board EVER!

Your statement discribes you to a T!
Look closely in that mirror sometime Wayner when your looking at all the grey hair and the wrinkles and wake the F up!

You need to read what I just said, Trix. there is only one way to get along with liberals on this forum: AGREE!!

Your an idiot!

What you mean is AGREE!!

I won't be brain washed by your kind!
I will not agree with you as you would like. I'm a FREE thinker that will not prescribe to your bigotry!
I'm a PROUD TRUE Republican WW and if you can't understand that then your truly as ignorant as everyone here thinks you are....

Sure you are. If you are you are a Rhino Republican. Whats free thinking to you? Blind Agreement?

Whats free thinking to you?

Destroying freedoms where everyone has to think as you???

Your a terrible American WW

Free thinking is believing whatever you wish to believe. Free thinking doesn't require a liberal mindset Trix.

However truth is constant, no matter your freedom of thought.

Make a self supporting point of discussion, and you are wrong on that basis, no matter how free of a thinker you are.

Yet again, you confuse the line between actual truth and belief.

You can believe the sky is green. You can act as if the sky is green, and gather with other sky is green believers. That does not make the sky green.

Somehow, you have come to believe freedom of speech, which you do not have here gratis BTW --we all asked permission to post in this place, is the same thing as freedom of truth.

This is not the case.

Those things we know to be absolutely true do not change. This is the nature of real truth. Not everything can be broken down to absolutes however. If this were the case, discussion would be easy.

However, we do know the line between truth and belief --have known it, as a race, for a very long time.

Knowing where this line is, and acting on it is rational thought.

Think how you want. Believe what you want. Deny truth if you want to. Just don't expect an consideration from those who know better.

What do you think truth is? I know what I believe the truth is!

Truth is either true or not. It's an absolute thing, not something you believe. There are few things we know to be absolutely true. The number of these things grows slowly as we reason with one another in search of greater truths.

A circular point of discussion is false. This is an absolutely true thing. This is but one of many fallacies, shown to be false points of discussion on their own merits. Utter one of these, with intent or not, and you've essentially wasted your time.

When this is pointed out to you, the right thing to do is understand why, grow accordingly, and be better for it. Your grasp of the language and ability to communicate with others in a meaningful way will improve rapidly.

For what it's worth, I went through this. Brutal, ugly, annoying, you name it. In the end, I was better for having done it.

You will live for a time, then die. This too is an absolutely true thing. What happens after that, is a belief that may or may not be true. See how that all works?

Again, what you believe does not matter here, only the fact that you have to believe something because the facts are not yet in.

Let's take a look at a topic that embodies these things.

eg:

Profanity is bad / harmful / sin, etc...

Ok, we don't know if any of this is true or not. This is something people believe, or not as they see fit.

What you believe does not matter, only the idea that the statement above is not known true does. Your faith may tell you profanity is a sin, or that it is wrong, or that it is harmful. Mine does not. This leaves us at an impasse.

(Like it or not, non belief in god is a matter of faith just as your belief in god is. Neither of us know the truth of the matter. Arbitrary.)

The problem is there is no position of authority granted to either party. You might say God is your authority and I might well say there is no god, or that my god, in particular, considers profanity a perfectly healthy human expression.

Whatever....

In the courtroom, where laws are made and harm decided, neither of us can enter that room and make true statements to support our position.

Why? Because the matter, in the first case being god, and in the second being profanity, is unclear. We've no known truths from which to make decisions that carry weight.

In this, then men are equal in that their beliefs, in the absense of known truth, are equal. How else to value one belief over another? Think long and hard about that one. --it's very important.

So, let's say the person offended wants to pass a law against profanity.

What basis for said law is there?

We've not established that profanity is harmful in any solid way, nor are we completely clear if it is a sin. If we ask enough people, we will get enough answers to properly muddy the matter.

Most imporantly, we know how offended one becomes from an expression is really up to individual people. If you are offended by profanity, that's really your deal. Others may or may not be as offended, or offended at all. All up to you. Likewise for anyone you meet. It's as ugly as you think it is.

Again, this is our natural state of equality, barring some known truth we can use to guide ourselves in an authoritative way. What's to prevent people from inflating their harm to abuse the system? Nothing! Which is exactly why we don't have laws like this.

Sorry, but God does not cut it where regulating others behavior is concerned. Why? We've no clear expression on god, nor his will, nor even one branch of religion being more "true", or "correct" than another.

Which is why we call it faith.

The whole matter then becomes arbitrary, unless real harm can be shown.

In this nation, we have only two reasons for making laws. They are to settle matters of property and to address matters of harm.

If I tell you to "fuck off", for example, that's really a coupla words. You can choose to get pissed about it, or ignore it, or something in between. This is an arbitrary harm. It is what you think it is.

This makes it very difficult to regulate because we've no standard upon which to apply our law in a non-discriminatory way. Should all of us be constrained by those people who inflate their perception of harm? Not on your life! If we go down this path, we end up being able to do almost nothing of consequense because the weak among us, or those of poor character would then bias the law, thus diminishing freedom for all in like kind.

Our law depends on our equality, and it being consistant with it's own self. We cannot make circular laws, just as we cannot make circular arguments --if we expect to have our law be authoritative that is.

Additionally, the law must apply to everyone, or no one. If this is not true, then elements of our law will be shown to be arbitrary and on that basis alone inconsistant with the greater body of law, known to be consistant with itself and the body of known truths.

Getting back to the profanity, in the end, you can show no concrete harm. After I've uttered those words, the world is the same as it was before, you are the same as you were before. Again, how badly you were harmed is really your deal.

This is why profanity is discouraged, but not illegal, but for those specific areas where we have decided the potential for harm clearly exists. We discourage it because we know some people consider it harmful, but we don't disallow it because they, in turn, really cannot demonstrate any solid harm --only the perception of harm, and that's almost always not enough for a law.

One clear where there is harm is profanity on public television. Young people may or may not have been exposed to profanity. If we expose them, we deny their parents their right to bring their kids into the world as they see fit, we also deny the younger people an environment where they can be young. There is concrete harm in this, thus we have some regulation.

A law banning profanity outright would not be a solid law. Why? Because we would then deny those adults the freedom of expression they are entitled to. It may be uncouth, in poor form, whatever, but we have no concrete harm to regulate.

Getting back to truth...

You made the statement that you know what you believe the truth is. Wayne, this is an ignorant statement. I'm not attacking, just trying a different approach here.

If you fully understood what truth really is and how that contrasts with matters of faith, then you would not be capable of such a statement.

What you really aim to say is that you have conviction. This is a state where you have decided to commit to a particular belief being a truth. You are free to do this. However, you are not free to require others to act as if your conviction were also their conviction.

This is why we have freedom of religion here. To do otherwise would be forcing a large percentage of Americans to then live a lie. This is a concrete harm in that freedom is diminished without being so diminished via a known truth.

Before I say anything else, know I go for honesty. Brutal, up-front, in your face honesty. It's the only sane means of discussion that can be applied to tough issues that we can get anything out of.

This is why labels are dishonest. They are generalizations whose meaning is again arbitrary. What you identify as conservative is very different from what many other people identify as being conservative. Be aware, this is not a you are wrong, they are right matter, it is simply an unclear matter. Said lack of clarity renders the label useless for solid discussion, unless the discussion is of a general nature.

Statements like, "You liberals only seek blind agreement" are false on the basis I've presented here. They are also ignorant ones, if you actually believe them to be statements of fact.

Your confusion (or denial --I don't know which) of the boundary between faith and truth is the source of a lot of grief.

Let's consider the sky again. If I am a member of the "sky is green" crowd and you and I talk, would it not seem silly for me to say:

"But Wayne, God says the sky is green --you've just gotta believe! Come on down to the church and we will set you straight!"

You would look up and shake your head in disbelief. --Anyone would.

Let's further say we continued the discussion and I ended up saying things like:

"Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up. Dammit, that sky is green!"

or

"I know what I believe the truth is --the sky is green."

You would rightfully point to me and call ignorance! (And you would be right about it.)

Further, what if I proposed a law saying the sky is green, despite clear evidence it is not. Say I claimed my faith to be the one ultimate authority in these matters and that all others are either misguided or ignorant.

Would that not offend? Sure it would. I would then be trying to legislate a lie for you and that's offensive. It's also anti-American as handling these matters is what our nation is all about. That's why we have the laws we do. (Well, most of the laws we do...)

(It sure would offend me!)

This is exactly what you spend a very large percentage of your time here doing.

Again, do not consider this an attack. It's as clear and brutally honest explanation as I'm capable of at this time.

Getting back to truth...

You made the statement that you know what you believe the truth is. Wayne, this is an ignorant statement. I'm not attacking, just trying a different approach here.
What is so ignorant about that statement would you tell me? Do I have the right to believe what I think the truth is? I would say that we both believe we know what the truth is.What happens too often is that we are so sure we are right that we just can't listen to others. Both sides are guilty of this.


Statements like, "You liberals only seek blind agreement" are false on the basis I've presented here. They are also ignorant ones, if you actually believe them to be statements of fact.

But liberals constantly prove that I am right. We need only to agree with everything they say or else forget it.

Other than those remarks I appreciate what you said. It sounds like you gave it a lot of thought.

Wayne, you've got some latitude on the first part of your post. It's hard to nail down that statement, given the context.

I'll drop that comment as it could go either way. Since the context is muddy, I've realistically no means to reach consensus. Better to let it go and focus on that that which has the potential for value. Sorry. IMHO, you've met your burden on that one.

On the second point at hand, you've not met your burden. I've shown that your use of the label above is simply false. It's a type of statement that is known to be not true. Period, end of story done, next.

If you do actually believe that statement to be a statement of fact, you are in error.

I am going to maintain my position that you make this kind of statement out of ignorance. You've got a ways to go before you meet your burden otherwise.

The one request that has been consistantly made here is that you bring support to the table. When your support violates elementary and known true matters of form in reasoning, said support is simply not going to be accepted as such.

This is the "you only seek blind agreement part". This is false. What others seek is solid support for your views. With this, they then see something of value, thus worthy of greater consideration. From this a real discussion can occur. That's what this forum is all about.

Where that discussion goes, and what impact it has on ones worldview is arbitary. It is what it is.

The quality of discussion is what matters and making statements like this diminishes the quality of the discussion. This is the theft I mentioned earlier.

We all make these kinds of bonehead statements. Together, we check one another and thus improve over time. This is how our society came to the body of knowledge it has today. No biggie, given one is willing to engage the process and grow.

Done too often, and in particular, done after having the matter exposed in enough ways to assure clarity of understanding, is theft in that it becomes a matter of willful ignorance.

I don't know about you, but when I struggle with this, it always comes down to pride and tolerance. Sometimes I really don't want to be wrong because being right is part of my identity. That's the pride issue rearing it's ugly head. Sucks, but hey we are all who we are. --we either deal or not.

Sometimes it's a matter of tolerance when I've been shown something that is true that I really am not comfortable with being true. That's the tolerance issue. It's as difficult as pride is, sometimes more so.

We need to define what we mean by "tolerance." To the left "tolerance" has only one meaning: ones total and blind agreement. Its agree or else. We can't be both a conservative and tolerant to a liberal. I am sorry but thats my experience with the leftists on this forum. We don't dare disagree with them. I appreciate your willingness to disagree, you seem to be an exception. The thing is we both are 100 percent sure that we are right and we are so set in our ways that it is very difficult to reason at all. At least in the Hannity forum there is some tolerance from the posters. But I have seen very little of that here, and thats true of the left as well as the right. I think we all struggle a bit with human pride. Whats the answer for that? For me anyway its faith. It keeps me in check.If my own pride gets out of line my Creator has a way of letting me know. What I have to do is respond to him.

"To the left "tolerance" has only one meaning: ones total and blind agreement. Its agree or else."

False.

You follow with "leftists" --also false for reasons given above.

Finally, we've got: 'We cant be both a conservative and tolerant to a liberal". Fucking falsity, false, false, false.

(and the profanity is humor --not an attack!)

Tolerance is an American thing. It's not a conservative thing, liberal thing, but a free society thing.

If the matter is unclear, then by mutual respect we must have tolerance for the different views we encounter. How else to behave and maintain the high ground in ones deeds?

Struggle with human pride --answer?

Tolernance! It and equality are the means by which a free society can continue to endure.

Once again, nobody is asking for agreement. They are asking for support. Given it's not easily given (and for a lot of things it just isn't), then tolerance for the various views is clearly warranted.

The mutually accepted definition of tolerance, in this context, is this:

tolerance n. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

Finally, I'm being an exception right now because I believe in advocacy. I also believe reason will always prevail. It has to date, no reason to expect that to not continue.

Reason is the means by which we can bring known truth to light. it is also that which enables us to consider others and act accordingly to that which we believe.

If we unabashadely embrace reason, the melding of our values, faith and that which we have struggled to be known truth, gives us a means to grow and beneft each other mutually.

This is doing good, it is taking the high ground, it is making us better as a race. All of this is good and proper, no matter what ones particular faith may be.

I define tolerance as accepting a political view that I don't agree with.

I have a question about profanity: Why does that have to be the official language of this forum? Is it possible to make a post without using it? I say it doesn't prove anybody's point at all. It shows me the insecurity of the poster that he can't say anything thats not an attack or profane. If its used once in a while thats one thing. Some people can do that. But why use it if there are better ways to make a point? I would like to see some kind of a rule that would at least forbid bad language if it is an attack on somebody. We have that on other forums. I believe that the rules of posting here forbid profanity.

I would agree about reason: It should be the goal of any dialouge. We probably won't agree on very much. But at least we can understand why we think the way that we do. Thats why I come here to begin with. One can be 100 per cent sure he is right and still have the ability to listen to another point of view. I hope and pray that is the desire of others here too.
I have enjoyed this talk!

That's a big problem. Your definition is not a generally accpeted one. In this, you have trouble talking to others.

You don't have to accept the view, simply give it the same respect you do your own.

On the matter of profanity, it's actually a sign of comfort, when not being used in a negative way. It's that too, but what I'm getting at is the various layers of language.

We have formal speech for those we give deference to, or do not know. We have more relaxed speech for those we do know or situations where deference is not an issue. Finally we have largely free speech.

People do not use the free mode when not comfortable. In this, profanity is not always bad. Often it's a shared emotion.

Everybody is different on this. I personally embrace profanity for a fair number of exchanges. Having a wide emotional range of expression is important. That keeps it real.

Besides, how one is affected by profanity is really up to each person. You can choose to make a big deal out of it, or take it for what it is. When I see profanity, I see the stronger emotions and consider those. There are times when it's appropriate to be offensive to a degree. Abusing this is always an issue and I personally have backed off as I was getting too relaxed.

Bottom line is this. How many people say, "Gosh darn it" when they stub their toe, or whack their thumb with a hammer?

Not many.

In my use above, I could have easily said "fricking falsiity, false, false, false" and it would have almost gotten the idea across.

But my primary point was this:

Reading that stuff is a whole lot like stubbing my toe. It really hurts and I'm expressing that hurt in the most honest way possible. If that offends a bit, sorry.

But it does hurt!

Again if people would please not use it to attack somebody.They forget that when they attack somebody there are others who are reading this and when they swear it affects them too.I would appreciated it if people would at least not use profanity in those terms. Some people can use profanity when they reach a red light that pops out in front of them. Thats not quite as bothersome to me because at least its not a personal attack. The point is we can get our point across just as effectively without using foul language.

And whats wrong with tolerance being able to accept somebody who thinks differently than you do? I think thats a noble thing to want.

So far, the only people I can remember complaining about the profanity is you and Herb. Maybe you two are just pussies?

The thought had crossed my mind!

To be completely fair, I've been called on it by a coupla others. Not directly, but in the interest of better quality discussion...

Author: Reinstatepete
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 6:14 pm


So far, the only people I can remember complaining about the profanity is you and Herb. Maybe you two are just pussies?

--------
We can't be the only ones who are offended by it.Maybe we are the only ones who have the guts to speak out against it.

"So far, the only people I can remember complaining about the profanity is you and Herb."

It takes a brain to actually discuss without resorting to profanity.

If swearing leftists had decent arguments, they'd resort to them rather than obscene language.

Herb

False.

This is just a cop-out. Again, go back through the posting history. Plenty of rational arguments are usually presented before the profanity follows.

When it hurts, people tend to express that.

Its the truth. The leftists swear and insult when they run out of arguments. They can never admit that they are wrong. That would be too embarrasing. what they don't realize is that it is far more honorable to admit wrong than it is to insult or use profanity.

And it's even MORE honorable to admit when someone shows you a fact that is completely different than what you BELIEVED, to say " Oh. Yeah. I didn't think of that. I hand't considered that angle."

So you are right, when EVERYTHING else is exhausted, ( including facts that you deny - I mean REAL facts. Not just ones you deny because it would make you admit you are wrong ) we get pissed at you and frustrated. And that's the way it comes out. Too bad. Now you know though. So deal with it. What are you going to do? Get us to stop cussing and suddenly admit that there are posts that taught you something? I doubt it. You have a learning disablity. It's obvious. But don't take it out on us, Wayne. It's you who flaunts it and wears it like a badge.

It makes me want to tell you VERY bad things. But I haven't, now have I?

There. You get what you wanted.

Now give me what I want or I'll ask you to blow me.

( And I only mean that in the way in which my erect penis would be inserted into your mouth until I was done ).

Look in the mirror, dipstick!

Author: Chickenjuggler
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 9:21 pm


And it's even MORE honorable to admit when someone shows you a fact that is completely different than what you BELIEVED, to say " Oh. Yeah. I didn't think of that. I hand't considered that angle."


And it is even MORE honorable to admit when a fact you bring up doesn't prove your point.

So you are right, when EVERYTHING else is exhausted, ( including facts that you deny - I mean REAL facts. Not just ones you deny because it would make you admit you are wrong ) we get pissed at you and frustrated. And that's the way it comes out. Too bad. Now you know though. So deal with it. What are you going to do? Get us to stop cussing and suddenly admit that there are posts that taught you something? I doubt it. You have a learning disablity. It's obvious. But don't take it out on us, Wayne. It's you who flaunts it and wears it like a badge.

Like my mom says "don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up." I doubt if facts would do any good. You are too set in your ways to have facts make any difference. You swear and insult when you have no argument.


It makes me want to tell you VERY bad things. But I haven't, now have I?

There. You get what you wanted.

Now give me what I want or I'll ask you to blow me.

( And I only mean that in the way in which my erect penis would be inserted into your mouth until I was done ).

you can't argue gentlemanly can you CJ? Not unless the person arguing agrees with you. I get the feeling you don't really want to debate do you?

Your feelings are wrong. I tried to explain the rules of debates, which you yourself came up with, and you couldn't follow them before we even got started. I let you pick every angle you wanted, every rule, every boundary. Nothing. You got scared and started quoting your mommy.

And to prove it to you again - right here, right now - What do you want to debate? Go for it. Let's hear it. Make your opening case. Come on.

Nah - you'll back down and cry. You can't do it. You know you can't. We know it too.

It was a learning disablity, wasn't it? That's what it was. Look, I have my own problems too. But you just mash your stupidity in my face way too often. It's going to make me react. So yeah, you caught me. Broke me wide open; I don't suffer fools forever.

Sue me. And now that we BOTH know it, I'll take my pants off.

"Plenty of rational arguments are usually presented before the profanity follows."

Oh really? Plenty according to who?

If leftists had HALF the mental fire power they purport, they could keep pace with conservatives.

They can't, so they get brain freeze and resort to profanity.

Herb

How about ONE? Would ONE count?

What about TWO?

Do I have to go through the posting history?

I've been here a good long time. Was here when we had the profanity discussion. Was here when the filter was turned off. Was here when every last thread was started. Was here when it escalated to profanity and other things...

The majority of the time, it went down exactly like I wrote.

As for mental firepower, go back through the posting history on that too.

Herb, you personally have the record on number of dodges in the form of unanswered questions, subject changes, etc...

The elections alone put you very high in the, well I just could be wrong, but would look like an ass to admit it catagory.

And we've got Wayner here:

Liberals can never admit they are wrong...

False.

Have done that consistantly and repeatedly when warranted. Have done this the entire time I've posted here.

I identify as mostly liberal, thus making your statement false beyond the simple use of a generalization. It's false on form and on fact.

Author: Herb
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:22 pm


"Plenty of rational arguments are usually presented before the profanity follows."

Oh really? Plenty according to who?

If leftists had HALF the mental fire power they purport, they could keep pace with conservatives.

They can't, so they get brain freeze and resort to profanity.

Herb
-----------
I haven't seen one rational argument that was followed by profanity or insulting, Herb! I think its a sign that we win an argument. We know they will never admit they are wrong.

OK. Fine. Take that as a sign. YOU WIN!

What are you going to do with your win?

I would do about 497 victory laps, if I were you.

Staaarting......NOW....GO..HURRY!

CJ....leave poor Wayne alone...he was dropped on his head to many times as a baby!!! The part of his brain that can reason or just plain answer any direct questions was permanately scrambled!!

I've admitted being wrong to you in the last 24 hours Wayne.

False.

Guess I might have to go through some posts after all.

You two do know every word is recorded here right? It isn't like some conversation that can be forgotten or muddied for confusion later. The exact exchanges are there for the reading afterword.

This is eerie. Did you two read the study I linked? Remember all the discussion about fact, faith, truth, etc? Remember the discussion about debate, the rules of engagement, etc..?

Fits you two to a tee.

Here we are discussing profanity. This is an issue settled here long ago. Nobody really cares but you two. (And I've got some e-mails to prove that actually!)

It's a lot like watching the nation go into debt, healthcare rot, but we've gotta really focus on flag burning...

Later.

You two can sum up your experiences here and have at it. I'm gonna go post on some threads that actually matter!

Has anyone read the rules about profanity? I have and thats not allowed here! Unless you and the leftists somehow changed that. Maybe if that would stop there just might be more conservatives on here. On the other hand thats probably the reason it goes on at all.

Hey folks....Here is some good reading....Really hits the Dorks on the Head I think!!!


Not Answering Challenges to a Claim
When trying to make a case for some position or idea, we frequently encounter questions which challenge the coherency or validity of that position. When we are able to adequately answer those questions, our position becomes stronger. When we cannot answer the questions, then our position is weaker. If, however, we avoid the question altogether, then our reasoning process itself is revealed as possibly weak.

It is unfortunately common that many important questions and challenges go unanswered — but why do people do this? There are surely many reasons, but a common one may be a desire to avoid admitting that they might be wrong. They might not have a good answer, and while “I don’t know” is certainly acceptable, it may represent an unacceptable admission of at least potential error.

Another possible reason is that answering the question might lead one to the realization that their position isn’t valid, but that position plays an important role in their self-image. For example, someone’s ego might be dependent upon the premise that some other group is inferior to them — in such a situation, the person might be strongly inclined not to directly answer questions about the justification of that alleged inferiority, otherwise they might have to acknowledge that they aren’t so superior after all.

Not every instance where a person seems to be avoiding the question qualifies as such — sometimes a person may think that they answered it earlier or at another point in the process. Sometimes a genuine answer doesn’t immediately look like an answer. Consider:

Patient: Is my condition life threatening, doctor?
Doctor: We’ll need to do more tests before we can determine that.
In this example the doctor has told the patient that she doesn’t know if his condition is life threatening, but she didn’t say that outright. Thus, although it could appear as though she avoided the question, in reality she did give an answer — perhaps one which she thought would be a bit more gentle. Contrast that with the following:

Patient: Is my condition life threatening, doctor?
Doctor: Don’t worry about that right now. You get some rest tonight and I’ll be by tomorrow.
Here, the doctor has avoided answering the question entirely. There is no hint that the doctor still needs to do more work in order to arrive at an answer; instead, we get an evasion that sounds suspiciously like he doesn’t want to face telling his patient that she might die.

When someone avoids direct and challenging questions, that does not justify concluding that their position is wrong; it is very possible that their position is 100% correct. Instead, what we can conclude is that the reasoning process which leads them to assert their position may be flawed. A strong reasoning process requires that one either have already dealt with or be capable of addressing important issues. This, of course, means being able to answer challenging questions.

Typically when a person avoids answering a question, that question was posed by another person in a debate or discussion. In such cases the person is not only evincing flawed reasoning, but also violating basic principles of discussion. If you are going to engage in a conversation with someone, you need to be willing to address their comments, concerns, and queries. If you don’t, then it’s no longer a two-way exchange of information and views.

However, that isn’t the only context in which a person might avoid answering questions. It’s also possible to describe that as occurring even when a person is alone with his thoughts and considering a new idea. In such cases they will surely face a variety of questions they ask themselves, and they might avoid answering them for some of the reasons suggested above.

"I think its a sign that we win an argument."

Wayne is right and liberals know it.

Swearing is the equivalent of turning over the chessboard when one is losing.

Not to mention bad sportsmanship. The pathetic thing is that it makes the bad sport look even worse.

Herb

You win arguments with facts, and both of you, especially Wayne, lack facts.

Besides Herb, you kind of give what little credibility you have left, away, when you defend Wayne. Care to tell us whether Dick Cheney served in the military??

Look Jo if someone doesn't answer a question like you claim what do you really mean by that? I am very careful to answer every question that is asked of me. The reason people think its not an answer is because they don't like the answer I give but can never admit it. They can never admit they disagree. Why are people here so above saying they disagree? There would be a lot less conflict at least here on this forum if people would only agree to disagree. But to the liberals agreement is EVERYTHING!

Author: Reinstatepete
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:19 am


You win arguments with facts, and both of you, especially Wayne, lack facts.

Besides Herb, you kind of give what little credibility you have left, away, when you defend Wayne. Care to tell us whether Dick Cheney served in the military??

--------
Facts don't matter as long as your mind is so made up.

Herb and Wayne, I checked with some current military friends.

Wayne, they said you do know why you left the Air Force early.

And Cheney is not a former military officer.

Call any military recruiter and they will tell you all of this.

"are to tell us whether Dick Cheney served in the military??"

If you say something, do I ask MissingKSKD what you meant?

Herb

My mind isn't made up. Prove to me that Cheney "served in the military" and I'll admit that I'm wrong.

Pete, call any recruiter and they will give you the real answer.

I don't need to call a recruiter, as I already know that the statement "Cheney did not serve in the military" is 100% fact on par with the statement "the sun rises from the east every morning."

I just want Wayne to admit he's wrong with his claim, and I'd also like to see Herb admit that Wayne is wrong. Do you have the guts to correct your little lackey? Or will you just dodge this like you dodge everything else?

Wayne won't admit why he was discharged early, but his DD214 has that information. I really hate to say this, but he is lying to us again.

I don't know what happened. They don't give reasons for a convience of government discharge. Your lie is a lie.

Author: Reinstatepete
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:35 am


My mind isn't made up. Prove to me that Cheney "served in the military" and I'll admit that I'm wrong.

---
its made up. No proof would convince you. Cheney was a commissioned officer. Thats military service. You see a conservative can serve in the military just like any liberal can. Why do you make ones political outlook the requirement for military service?

Check your DD214. If you really were in the military, you know what that is.

Proof would convince me so please do so. I would like to know how he served.

Wayne said - " I am very careful to answer every question that is asked of me. The reason people think its not an answer is because they don't like the answer I give but can never admit it. "

That's almost true. You actually DO answer many of the questions asked of you. The problem is that you answer them WITH a question. And so, yes, that is an answer we don't like. So you got us there. But it makes you think you've answered the question - so you do it.

OK. Just humor me Wayne. I'll ask a question and let's see if you can give a CORRECT answer without using a question ANYWHERE in your reply.

Uh oh. There's a question coming - heart racing now - I'm sure you already copied " Why do you ask? I wish you'd just get to your point. I hate not knowing why you are asking. I suggest that it is YOU that...my mommy always said...I believe that..." and have it ready to paste to my question. But here is my question. Let's see how well you handle this. I'll get to WHY I am asking later. For now, just provide me with a correct answer. You can even guess or say that you don't know. I just want to see if you can answer this question directly;

Wayne, which weighs more; A pound of feathers or a pound of lead?

Because he sure looks like a big time dodger to me....

Cheney and the draft
Cheney was of military age and a supporter of the Vietnam War but he did not serve in the war, applying for and receiving five draft deferments. On May 19, 1965, Cheney was classified as 1-A , "available for service" by the Selective Service. On October 26, 1965 the Selective Service lifted the constraints on drafting childless married men. Cheney and his wife then had a child after which he applied for and received, a reclassification of 3-A, gaining him a final draft deferment.

In an interview with George C. Wilson that appeared in the April 5, 1989 issue of The Washington Post, when asked about his deferments the future Defense Secretary said, "I had other priorities in the '60s than military service."[5]There continues to be controversy involving Dick Cheney and the draft, due in part to Cheney's five draft deferments. In January 1959, when Mr. Cheney reached age 18 and was classified as 1-A — available for service — he was doing poorly at Yale. At that time, however, the military was taking only older men, and like most others who were in college at the time, Cheney had little concern about being drafted. In June 1962, Cheney left Yale to return home to Casper, where he worked as a lineman for a power company. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. While Cheney was eligible for the draft, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.

By January 1963, with the US actively advising South Vietnamese forces, Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College and turned 22 that month. At that time, he sought his first student deferment which was granted on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, Cheney sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963. On August 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use military force in Vietnam. From that point on, American involvement in Vietnam began to escalate rapidly.

On August 29, 1964, 22 days after the resolution, Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought and was granted his third student deferment on October 14, 1964. In May 1965, Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. Since he was married, however, he had somewhat better protection from being drafted. In July 1965, Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment because he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on November 1, 1965.

On October 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. On January 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted. In January 1967, Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft. [6]


source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney

Please prove otherwise and I will not post one more negative comment about you or Herb. I will also post an apology to you and he for the previous negative remarks that I made.

I'm afraid Wayne is a true Bush Jr. man. He refuses to admit when he is wrong, despite the facts and the fact that he is the only one — save for Herb — who believes what he says.

Nwokie, I see you are here today. As a former officer, please correct Wayne.

uthor: Chickenjuggler
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 12:44 pm


Wayne said - " I am very careful to answer every question that is asked of me. The reason people think its not an answer is because they don't like the answer I give but can never admit it. "

That's almost true. You actually DO answer many of the questions asked of you. The problem is that you answer them WITH a question. And so, yes, that is an answer we don't like. So you got us there. But it makes you think you've answered the question - so you do it.

OK. Just humor me Wayne. I'll ask a question and let's see if you can give a CORRECT answer without using a question ANYWHERE in your reply.

Uh oh. There's a question coming - heart racing now - I'm sure you already copied " Why do you ask? I wish you'd just get to your point. I hate not knowing why you are asking. I suggest that it is YOU that...my mommy always said...I believe that..." and have it ready to paste to my question. But here is my question. Let's see how well you handle this. I'll get to WHY I am asking later. For now, just provide me with a correct answer. You can even guess or say that you don't know. I just want to see if you can answer this question directly;

Wayne, which weighs more; A pound of feathers or a pound of lead?

-----------
I answer every one of your questions. The problem is that you and the rest of the lefties care only about one thing: MY TOTAL BLIND AGREEMENT! Forget about facts, nothing else matters but that. Why can't you admit thats what you want here?

LMAO - OK.

Wayne.

No comment on my last post hunh. Why can't you ever say "I was wrong" and be done with it? Are you above that because you know to error is human and to admit it requires character. Let's here your response, yes or no Cheney was never in the military and I was wrong!

Cmon Wayne it's not that bad.....Crow can taste good depending upon how you prepare it. Just say it once.....I WAS WRONG or prove me wrong instead and I will apologize and admit that I was wrong!

I am not wrong in this matter. Cheney was chief of staff under Bush41 and that qualifies as military service. Why have you degraded service to our country to depend on ones politics? Have any conservatives served our country? According to your logic thats not possible. Why don't you care that Bill Clinton never served at all? Why do you have such a double standard about that?

uthor: Joamon4sure
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 1:31 pm


Wayne.

No comment on my last post hunh. Why can't you ever say "I was wrong" and be done with it? Are you above that because you know to error is human and to admit it requires character. Let's here your response, yes or no Cheney was never in the military and I was wrong!

----
I think you should lead the way.

Wayne said - "Why don't you care that Bill Clinton never served at all?"

By your logic, Clinton did serve. As Commander in Chief.

Ok Wayne, enough is enough. You are proof that facts are not facts for people like you, so I give up. I offered you the proof, but you still want to lie.

Since Nwokie won't tell you that truth also, that is proof he also defends anyone who is wrong so long as they claim to be a conservative.

Frankly, Wayne, you make conservatives look bad.

"Why don't you care that Bill Clinton never served at all? Why do you have such a double standard about that?"

You dumb ass....where did I ever say any of that....huh.

BTW CJ......way to kick his ass with his own retard facts and opinions.

Serving in the military is when you are called to do so and not getting 5 defferals and finally knocking someone up to avoid being drafted. Not some old fart who is by military standards even to old to enlist for service anyway.

Although the president has the title of Commander in Chief he is still viewed as civilian commander given that authority by legal statute.

See definition of commander in chief below:

A Commander-in-Chief is the commander of a nation's military forces or significant element of those forces. In the latter case, the force element may be defined as those forces within a particular region or those forces which are associated by function. As a practical term it refers to the military competencies which reside in a nation-state's executive, head of state or government. Oftentimes a given country's Commander-in-Chief need not be or have been a commissioned officer or even a veteran, and it is by this legal statute that civilian control of the military is realized in states where it is constitutionally required.

OK Fine. I admit it..You were wrong and I was right...there...happy now?

"Frankly, Wayne, you make conservatives look bad."

UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE YEAR.

You make liberals look bad.You don't think any conservative has ever served in the armed forces!

Author: Radioblogman
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:37 pm


Ok Wayne, enough is enough. You are proof that facts are not facts for people like you, so I give up. I offered you the proof, but you still want to lie.

Since Nwokie won't tell you that truth also, that is proof he also defends anyone who is wrong so long as they claim to be a conservative.

Frankly, Wayne, you make conservatives look bad.

-------
The truth doesn't matter to you unless you agree with it. I think you make liberals look bad.

uthor: Herb
Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 9:04 am


1. Unless one buys into their secular 'progressive' agenda, expect to be mocked and belittled.

2. Although liberals talk a good game, to them, diversity applies to thought. Leftists cannot handle an opinion at odds with their own. To the left, the 1st Amendment ONLY APPLIES TO THEM.

3. The surest way to see a leftist melt down is to discuss something they're afraid of or don't understand. This typically includes the 2nd Amendment, faith and anything to do with traditional family values.
------------
There is only one way to get along with liberals: AGREE WITH THEM!

1. Unless one buys into their abuse of religious agenda, expect to be mocked and belittled.

2. Although conservatives talk a good game, to them, diversity applies to thought. Right-wingers cannot handle an opinion at odds with their own. To the right, the 1st Amendment does not exist.

3. The surest way to see a right-winger melt down is to discuss something they're afraid of or don't understand. This typically includes the 1st Amendment, faith and anything to do with traditional family values or diversity.

There is only one way to deal with a liberal: AGREE WITH EVERY THING THEY SAY!

Wayne, I do not expect you to agree with me or me with you when we spout our own opinion. I truly respect you when you have a contrary opinion. But when it comes to just plain facts, I expect you to agree with me as I would you.

So deal with it already......geesh!!!

Author: Radioblogman
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 3:55 pm


Wayne, I do not expect you to agree with me or me with you when we spout our own opinion. I truly respect you when you have a contrary opinion. But when it comes to just plain facts, I expect you to agree with me as I would you.

--------
There is only one way we can present facts here and that is only give facts that you agree with.
Thats my complaint here. I don't want you to agree with me on everything either and wouldn't expect you to.

What DO you want Wayne?

a million dollars would be nice.

And what would you do wiht your million dollars?

You'll get nothing and like it, Spalding.

Then why ask the question at all?

What would you do with a million dollars Wayne? Really.

He would give half to his church and half to the Dick Cheney Hunting School.

You guys notice the "Ignore Wayne - but not Herb" thread. You can no longer post to it. Either there is a size limit on threads or Dan got tired of it and shut that one off!

Its about time Dan shut off that thread. It wasn't really saying much anymore. And I notice nobody is ignoring me.

OK, So let's start doing it. Right now.

I, "Mr. Merkin", swear (hahaha!) that I will not answer or respond to the retarded troll for as long as merkinly possible.

Mrs. M...
I noticed the other day at the LEFTIEST meeting that you made the most excellent cookies. The goat blood made it even better than I thought. Thanks for posting all my PINKO COMMIE flyers at Washington Square and Clackamas Towne Center. I'm so happy we can get the word out that we want to lose the war on terror by bring our kids home from Iraq. I mean protecting our young men and women is so UNAmerican but heck we're lefties so who cares.
I wish we could be so much better or should I say neo-CONers. They are so RIGHT all the time and have all the answers all the time.
In closing Mrs. M I will say that I'm truly happy to have you on my side because I love to lose!

Mr. Trixter

And you are the big loser as long as you refuse to believe, Trix.

I believe. Does that automatically make me a winner? Or can I believe and still be a loser?

Gosh, I want to be a winner SO bad.

WW..
You truly are ignorant beyond belief!
I'm a believer and have been for 25 years!
Wayner...
Your the loser.....

Not a chance. I belong to God and am planning on spending my eternity with him. You say you are a believer, then why do you swear the way you do? Do you think God is honored by that?

WW I do't think your spending any time with him the way you insult people!!!
Sorry dude!

God knows I'm NOT perfect and he FORGIVES ME! How can he forgive you when you don't even think your doing anything wrong....

IGNORANCE is bliss!

I don't insult anyone, I just disagree. Thats really the same thing Trix. At least it is to you. And God is forgiving, thats very true. But there has to be a change of heart too. And I admit I am not perfect either. Who is? I am thankful that my future doesn't depend on what I do but what God has already done through Christ's death. We are not saved by works but by grace. I would be in the same boat as you if we were saved by works, Trix.

WW said>>>
You don't think any conservative has ever served in the armed forces!

3 MAYBE currently in the House and Senate. YOUR President?? NOPE! Satan Cheney?? NOPE! Carl "TURDBLOSSOM" Rove? NOPE!

You got a list???
LOVE TO SEE IT!!!!!

WW said>>>
don't insult anyone, I just disagree.

You just keep believing that.....

Trixter.

Seriously.

It's POSSIBLE for you to rant without swearing.

Whether you excercise the self-control is another.

And you have problems with the Waynester? How about leading by example?

Otherwise, it appears that you're simply baiting him. Expect to get bites when you put your line in the water.

Herb

Author: Trixter
Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 1:37 pm


WW said>>>
You don't think any conservative has ever served in the armed forces!

3 MAYBE currently in the House and Senate. YOUR President?? NOPE! Satan Cheney?? NOPE! Carl "TURDBLOSSOM" Rove? NOPE!

You got a list???
LOVE TO SEE IT!!!!!

WW said>>>
don't insult anyone, I just disagree.

You just keep believing that.....

--
Your point is clear: Only liberals can serve in the military. Nobody who is a conservative has ever served. Do you have any idea how insane that argument is?

And Trix you actually made a post without a cuss word! I am impressed you can do that!

Now, since he did that, is he correct?

He thinks that only liberals have served in the military. How can that be correct? At least he didn't swear and I appreciate that.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0505/p02s01-uspo.html

According to an article in the Christian Science Monitor, Americans spend twice as much on healthcare as other countries, but it turns out that they're not getting twice the quality for the price when they go to the doctor or hospital.

Homogenized Pastor-ized Wayne writes:

"I don't insult anyone, I just disagree."

This is mere hours after he insults me by writing "I don't have to (believe what I wrote), your actions speak louder than your words."

Actually Wayne, you really have no idea about anybody's "actions", only our words.

You have a long, long way to go before anyone, (and probably even Pastor Ebel if he read your posts here) would consider you living in a Christ-like manner in any sense of the word. (Except maybe the virgin-man part.)

IMNSHO, Your words and attitude are a huge insult to Christians that I admire: my sister, parents, and people like Chris T. and his family, for example. No shoving down it down throats and in-your-face, just kind words and deeds and above all, tolerance for all, even you.

You need to do some serious work on yourself before dispensing your special "brand" of "I alone know what God and Jesus say, mean, and want" to others, especially those of us, who don't want to hear it HERE, against our will.

If we all did live together IRL, and you were on your soapbox spouting and yelling your crap in the nice pretty park and common area like you are here, nobody would go there to enjoy the kids, a picnic, and the rest of the neighbors, the ducks or the park.

Or we'd finally just call the police and have you moved back to your (Mom's) home for disturbing the peace.

Who wants to listen to the man on the box interupting and yelling and ruining everyone's nice outing? No one wants to be around you Wayne, and that's just sad.

Have you ever been to somewhere like Pioneer Square and tried doing what you do here? Have you ever gone door-to-door? Maybe you should, and see what happens, or watch someone else do it first. Especially if they are a different religion.

Maybe you should ask some Mormon missionary boys to come to your house to discuss the Bible with you, if you want an audience to just argue with.

This is NOT your audience, but you don't seem to understand that, no matter how nice, and finally, just tired, angry and frustrated we are with YOU.

We've tried using explanations, reasoning, facts, cited sources, etc., and on and on and on. We've wasted way too much time on you.

You're convinced we'd miss you, but I certainly wouldn't.

It makes me so angry that Missing/KBBT, Joamon, Skip, and all the other kids are leaving the park because of YOU, and you alone.

Do you feel good about yourself, that you've caused that? Are you prideful? Do you think God approves of what you're doing?

I don't think the God that I know would approve of your tactics and manner.

You're driving people AWAY from both here, and from God, Wayne.

I'm done with you. For real.

I doubt Pator Dale Ebel or his wife Linda give a damn about people like Wayne as long as him and the rest of the gullible idiots continue to line his pocket with the kind of money that allows a pastor of a brainwashing mega-church to live in a home valued at $841K (I looked him up, and the home value is courtesy of zillow.com).

WW said>>>
He thinks that only liberals have served in the military.

Show me the neo-CONs that have served.... NOT Republicans but neo-CONers.
Cheney???
DUHbya???
Rove????

Did you happen to see if his "church" participated in World AIDS Day last week in any positive capacity?

I don't really care enough to look it up, and I can guess the answer.

WW can't stand people with AIDS they're all HOMOsexuals!
WW probably thinks they can be fixed....

Sure thats true. They aren't born gay, no matter what spin you want to put there.

And why do you think that no conservative has ever served the military,Trix? Thats your point isn't it?

And Mrs M. is it possible for you to make any post at all without trashing somebody? You trash like a man, not a woman.

Pete, I wish you would visit our church sometime. I think you would find the people very caring. The pastor is a very good teacher and cares a lot about people.

WW...
Did DUHbya serve?? Rove??? Cheney???

NOT BORN GAY??? They CHOOSE to be shuned? They CHOOSE to be pushed into the closet???
YOUR INSANE!

Nobody who is conservative has ever served in the military? Thats insane that you would think that way.


Ones lifestyle is a choice, Trix, no matter how early it is.

DUHbya??
Rove??
Cheney???

They're leading this country!

How many deferments between them????

So they WANT to be shunned?? They LOVE living life behind CLOSED doors???
YOUR INSANE!
So U chose to be HETRO???

Name one conservative that has served in the military! You can't think of one can you Trix?

Wayne is a Liar and a Hypocrite.

All of you are right to protest Wayne in this forum. He makes up whatever lie best suits the situation in order to promote his twisted views on religion and politics. He is so hard fast in his mental state that he is completely unable to ever see anyone else’s point of view. He also breaks every rule there is in regards to formal discussions and debates. Everything from him is about him and never any answers to direct questions and never any substantiation to support any of his claims. He also has an inability to admit when he is wrong even when several people have laid out the proof positive right in front of him.
Wayne, when backed into a corner, will in the true form of a religious HYPOCRITE strike out and completely ignore his own faith as JO has stated and will crap all over the ninth commandment: Thou shall not bare false witness to another! He does this by making up lies about other people and putting words in the mouths of other forum members that they have never said or implied. That my friend is indeed Hypocrisy at its finest. To incite others into hatred and to spread false truths about a fellow forum member is “Bearing False Witness”! Anything that Wayne says from this point forward should be completely ignored and he should be discounted as a Liar, a Hypocrite, and most of all just the complete lack of any proper discussion and decision making abilities!
Wayne should be at the very least warned to straighten up and quit accusing people of untruths and to start demonstrating proper forum etiquette in discussions instead just preaching like a southern evangelist, All Fire and Brimstone if you don’t believe as he says it is to be done!
If he cannot act as a respectable human and enter into discussions properly then he should be barred from this forum. Herb I have not yet figured out but he appears to be OK as I have seen decent discussion from him! It is a pity he supports him as he does because it really damages others opinion on him as he appears to have some decent reasoning skills and actually discusses issues with others!

The Dark One

McCain
Lugar
Warner
Hagel
Inhofe
Graham
Sessions
Bush Sr.
Ford
Tricky Dick
Ronnie

Good enough for ya???

How about Rove, DUHbya and Cheney???

Author: Darktemper
Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 7:42 pm


Wayne is a Liar and a Hypocrite.

All of you are right to protest Wayne in this forum. He makes up whatever lie best suits the situation in order to promote his twisted views on religion and politics. He is so hard fast in his mental state that he is completely unable to ever see anyone else’s point of view. He also breaks every rule there is in regards to formal discussions and debates. Everything from him is about him and never any answers to direct questions and never any substantiation to support any of his claims. He also has an inability to admit when he is wrong even when several people have laid out the proof positive right in front of him.
Wayne, when backed into a corner, will in the true form of a religious HYPOCRITE strike out and completely ignore his own faith as JO has stated and will crap all over the ninth commandment: Thou shall not bare false witness to another! He does this by making up lies about other people and putting words in the mouths of other forum members that they have never said or implied. That my friend is indeed Hypocrisy at its finest. To incite others into hatred and to spread false truths about a fellow forum member is “Bearing False Witness”! Anything that Wayne says from this point forward should be completely ignored and he should be discounted as a Liar, a Hypocrite, and most of all just the complete lack of any proper discussion and decision making abilities!
Wayne should be at the very least warned to straighten up and quit accusing people of untruths and to start demonstrating proper forum etiquette in discussions instead just preaching like a southern evangelist, All Fire and Brimstone if you don’t believe as he says it is to be done!
If he cannot act as a respectable human and enter into discussions properly then he should be barred from this forum. Herb I have not yet figured out but he appears to be OK as I have seen decent discussion from him! It is a pity he supports him as he does because it really damages others opinion on him as he appears to have some decent reasoning skills and actually discusses issues with others!

The Dark One

---
Lying and disagreement are one and the same. Nothing else matters to you but my blind agreement. You accuse me of being intolerant but nobody is more intolerant than you and the other liberals. You may censor me but there are hundreds more who will take my place who are less tolerant than me. I am amazed that you have absolutely no heart at all in your body.

Hey! That reminds me!

Is anyone going to see the Jim Jones movie? Sounds really interesting! Good reviews! Andrew?

Blah! Blah! Blah! Same old crap response. Ever consider getting some new responses that don't further your Hypocrisy. FYI...I am a Republican and not a liberal!

I had a heart once....it was sucked dry by self righteous Hypocrites like you!

The Names Muck Raker
But I sure as hell am not going to muck out the mess left here by Wayne! Besides that is has a really foul smell....kinda like BrimStone!

I bet you never set foot in a church did you? I think your name really is a good name for you. I will be praying that God will help you see the light. Thats all I can do. You go ahead and be mean but you are only hurting yourself and others. You need to learn some kindness.

WW..
I gave you a list???

NO RESPONSE????

Figures

Damn neo-CONers

Darktemper speaks the truth. Glad to hear it from another Republican, too.

Don't pray for me Hypocrite...pray for your own salvation from eternal damnation....and yes I do go to church...not because I am a good servant....but because I have problems, admit to them, and hope to one day be a better servant. It is hypocrites like you that really give me a bad taste on religion and if you succeed in anything it will be to disuade me from continueing in going to church....albeit on an irregular schedule!

So feel proud that because of your sin that you may keep a fellow sinner away from the good house!

We are all sinners. I am as much as a sinner as you are. We are saved by God's grace not by works lest anyone should boast. God provided a way out for you, the bridge over troubled waters. Thats Jesus. Forget about hypocrites. What about your own unbelief? Let God deal with them. Forget about religion too. I am talking about letting God work his will through your life. You need to get on your knees, friend.

I might consider that if you were to adhere to the general rules of forum discussions instead of forum evangolism. AND most of all quit making false assumptions about your fellow forum members and incorrect broad generalizations of everyone who does not see eye to eye with you!

"You need to get on your knees, friend."

That's what Ted Haggard did!

Ya...Monica Lew did also!!! LMAO

Author: Darktemper
Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 9:55 pm


I might consider that if you were to adhere to the general rules of forum discussions instead of forum evangolism. AND most of all quit making false assumptions about your fellow forum members and incorrect broad generalizations of everyone who does not see eye to eye with you!

----
You need God in your life. Stop trying to convert me. Thats what you are doing.Don't worry about anything I might do. God will deal with me. You need to deal with your own unbelief. Thats the problem.

Author: Darktemper
Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 9:59 pm


Ya...Monica Lew did also!!! LMAO

__-----
And that is supposed to be a "private matter?" what hypocricy.

Well now I never claimed to be perfect now did I???? Unlike you who preaches to everyone then turns his back on one of the most basic rules.

I never claimed to be perfect. I said I was a sinner didn't I? You really need to read my posts. I said we all are sinners didn't I? We all blow it. The difference is that I know who I can go to for forgiveness when that happens. Have you ever experienced forgiveness in your life? I can say for myself that it is a wonderful feeling to be forgiven. But we are supposed to forgive one another. The reason I might have a struggle admitting a mistake is because none of you know how to forgive and forget! I just can't trust anybody except Herb with that. If I admit a mistake you and the rest will jump all over me. It doesn't do any good to do that. How about you? Can you forgive a wrong?

Poor Herb.

That's quite a load to carry.

P.S. RIP, that was sooooooo good!

And let me add that I'm real sorry about that girl in church and how it's scarred you for life. Did she actually join the convent after she rebuffed you?

I think maybe he is the reason that she decided to swear of men for the rest of her life!!!

LOL

"Blah! Blah! Blah! Same old crap response. Ever consider getting some new responses that don't further your Hypocrisy. FYI...I am a Republican and not a liberal!

I had a heart once....it was sucked dry by self righteous Hypocrites like you!

The Names Muck Raker
But I sure as hell am not going to muck out the mess left here by Wayne! Besides that is has a really foul smell....kinda like BrimStone!"

AMEN Brotha! There's several of us Republicans in here who simply want our Party back from the clutches of the Religious Right, the Waynes of the world.

Well speak up man of forever let him destroy a good parties reputation with his self righteous evangolism and twisted views that 99.9% of republicans would be sickened by his representation of their party!!!

Muck...Muck...Muck...at least my pitchfork will fit in for my final destination!!!!!!!

Nobocy is more self righteous than the secular left. Nobody is preaching more than they do. Why do you have the notion you are better than everybody else?

Merk, I'm ususally the one "rebuffing" the chicks, but since I'm married now, the ring does it for me and I just smile at them.

Ha!

Are you telling me that WW is wrong in his assessment of your faith and his diagnosis? How can that be? Especially coming from a man with no ring on his left hand. Ever.


Mrs. Smirkin'

Is Wayne "right" on anything?

I'm happily married and happily employed in a wonderful career, so I think I'm doing alright.

HISSSssssssssssssssssssssss

Hah....poked Wayne with my pitchfork and deflated him. Always thought he was just a big windbag!!! I left his girlfriend "BLOWUP PARTYTIME SALLY" alone though.

I know...I'm bad......but damn i'm good!!!!!!

LOL

Where?

DarkTemper,

Wayne needs to know where you left Sally. And fast! (although she turns him down, too)

HAH HAH HAH.....
I'm not gonna tell...I'm not gonna tell and you can't make me...na na na!!!

Actually next time he crashes his car I replaced his airbag with the Blow Up Sally!!! Will make for an interesting story.....Man saved by his Blow Up Sally AirBag!!!! LMAO

God it's fun to be bad!!!!

Don't get me started...I don't know how to stop once I get rolling......!!!