http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1121/p09s01-coop.html

Herb

"Atheism" hasn't caused any of history's great slaughter's. D'Souza is simply mistaken. The people killed under Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were not killed because they weren't atheist - they were killed to consolidate power, plain and simple. By contrast, people are killed in Iraq by the hundreds every day because of their religion, by religiously-motivated people. Just yesterday over 200 Shiite Muslims were killed for one reason and one reason alone: because they were Shiite Muslims:

http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/20-0&fp=45679981474ddfb0&ei=dMRnRcTsN sCOwQGoyOzZDA&url=http%3A//www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/11/24/iraq.main/&cid=0

Just because people were killed not because of the killer's religious beliefs doesn't mean they were killed because of the killer's lack of religious beiefs. That's just clumsy, false logic.

Andrew

I wonder how the writer would portray GWB. While Bush says he is a Christian, he likely would have gone into Iraq regardless of any religious beliefs to seek revenge for what Saddam tried to do to daddy Bush. However, GWB went into a private room to pray about going to war, and he claims God told him to move forward with it. GWB himself brought his religion into the picture to bolster his own ego and to make the war more attractive to the "true believers." In this instance there may be some validity to partially blaming the Iraq mess on Christianity gone awry because of Bush's actions and statements to that effect.

I definately agree with Herb. Bush didn't murder anybody his enemies did.

"I definately agree with Herb. Bush didn't murder anybody his enemies did."

Tell that to the over 600,000 Iraqis dead since we invaded their country.

Yeah, I'm sure they will agree with you!

Bush didn't kill anyone the same way Charles Manson didn't murder anyone.

Cue the ad hominem attacks.

Sooner or later, it always gets to liberals comparing conservatives, especially Mr. Bush, to people like Hitler or Charles Manson.

I'm just waiting for Trix to weigh in with some more 'neo-con' rhetoric.

Surely your talking points can't be that paltry.

Herb

You started out by saying atheists were responsible for history's mass murders - a pretty incendiary statement - and you are surprised to get similar rhetoric in return? How naive are you, Herb?

Andrew

Indeniary? Sure, if one wants to deny the facts.

Hitler was an atheist.

Mao was an atheist.

Stalin was an atheist.

Marx was an atheist.

Lenin was an atheist.

Pol Pot was an atheist.

Kim Il Sung was an atheist.

Fact is, these evil men killed FAR more people over the past century than anyone avowing a belief in God.

Stalin alone killed 30-40 million of his own people during collectivization in the 1930's.

Of course an atheist is going to deny it, spin it, change the subject, etc.

That doesn't change the facts.

Leftist atheists try to say that 'religion' is the big cause of war.

I've just laid out for you how ridiculous that statement is.

Herb

Author: Brianl
Friday, November 24, 2006 - 10:33 pm


"I definately agree with Herb. Bush didn't murder anybody his enemies did."

Tell that to the over 600,000 Iraqis dead since we invaded their country.

Yeah, I'm sure they will agree with you!
-------------
Tell that to the 600,000 Iraqis who were killed by your hero Saddam Husein. I am sure they will agree with you.

Of course an atheist is going to deny it, spin it, change the subject, etc.

That doesn't change the facts.

Leftist atheists try to say that 'religion' is the big cause of war.

I've just laid out for you how ridiculous that statement is.

Herb

----
A leftist will blame everybody but himself.

Two words (in response to Herb's last post): manifest destiny.

Again.

The charge is that theists are the main cause of war.

Given the overwhelming factual evidence [which liberals claim to want, but then run for the hills when they're presented], the actions of atheists are on trial, not occasional exceptions to the rule.

But it's hardly surprising.

What reason do atheists have for proper behaviour? There are no absolutes. Besides, man can make the rules as he goes along, anyway. It's all grey. That also means they can Trash and Dash [TM] to their heart's content with nothing to say they're wrong.

How convenient.

Nice spin.

Herb

>>man can make the rules as he goes along

As Bush has done with his signing statements attached to over 700 bills.

The thing that Hitler and Stalin and Osama bin Laden and religious zealots of the past had in common was that they were all first and foremost psychopaths, hungry for power. In the 20th century, the psychopaths simply learned to exploit modern idealogies instead of religious passions to take power. Of course, terrorists that we fight today are all religiously motivated, but they are basically the same type of people.

But perhaps the idea that the terrorists and insurgents America fights today are religiously-motivated bothers you a tad, Herb? Does the fact that Osama and Mohammed Atta murdered 3,000 innocent people on 9/11/2001 out of a warped devotion to God bother you?

Do you feel that you have something in common with Osama, Herb, because you are both devoted to God? Because I don't feel the slightest kinship with Hitler or Stalin because (you claim) they were atheists*. No one is painting all people of faith as murderers just because Osama killed people out of some weird devotion to God - yet you feel the need to compare all atheists to Hitler and Stalin. Why the need to offend? (And you are surprised that people attack you back??? LOL!) Insecure because of what you might have in common with Osama? I think you protest too much.

*As for Hitler, you may want to check your sources about whether he was an atheist or not. Read this:

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/mischedj/ca_hitler.html

The author concludes that Hitler was neither a Christian nor an atheist. Maybe you ought to do a little research before rushing to judgement?

Andrew

"What reason do atheists have for proper behaviour? There are no absolutes."

Bull.

Religion is completely arbitrary. "Bob said God said." and "Joe thinks Bob meant".

That's the bible, and your pastor in a nutshell. Completely arbitrary. Anything can be justified with religion.

On the other hand...

Take just one concept: Equality.

This guides us in many ways:

tolerance for others:

This gives us nice things like freedom of religion, freedom of thought, etc...

Why? Because equality means no entitlements, one mans thought is as good as anothers where matters of faith are concerned. It also shows us how to build our knowledge of truths. The absolute kind.

Equality also nicely supports doing good in that this world is what we make it. Acting in ways that devalues others will eventually devalue the society in which you live. Not good.

There is lots more. The beauty of it is that all of it can be tied to core concepts that can be traced back to known truths.

The best we've seen from the religious camp is ultimate truth... I still don't know what that means, and I suspect asking 10 people will yield 10 different answers.

Herb, you need to bring a whole lot more support to the table for the idea of there being no absolutes for non-religious people. You've yet to make that case.

Finally, there is a reason why we, in your words, "Trash and Dash" with nothing to say we are wrong. Before I complete that thought, note I've not seen a trash and dash, in the manner you speak. (Maybe a cheap shot or two, but it's not sensible to cherry pick those --no point to be made.)

Support has been asked for here and solidly given from the non-religious camp. We've the best record here by far.

That reason is we have thought about it --hard. That's the work required to maintain a defensible position in the world. Having done that, it's tough to see non-defensible ones supported by dogma.

"Hitler was an atheist."

No he wasn't. He was a Catholic.

From Mein Kampf:
"Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."


"Mao was an atheist."

True. Mao said, "Religion is poison."

"Stalin was an atheist."

Stalin was raised Russian Orthodox, but he later bought into the Communist Athiesm and purged millions of religious types, turning churches, mosques and synagouges into state buildings.

"Marx was an atheist."

Marx was born into a Jewish family but was converted to Protestant at a young age. Due in part to the change in religion and the reasoning behind it (anti-Semitism), he denounced religion at a young age.

Besides, how was Karl Marx responsible for millions of deaths? He led no purges or anything like that at all.


"Lenin was an atheist."

No he wasn't. Lenin was Jewish.

"Pol Pot was an atheist."

Yer right on this one. Most of his purges were religious figures.

"Kim Il Sung was an atheist."

Kim was a Stalinist in every fact imaginable, except he closed off North Korea more than Stalin did the Soviet Union. He, however, did NOT purge religious figures like Stalin did; while Christianity and Buddhism were not encouraged, they were not expelled. Bully Graham was asked by Kim to speak in North Korea in fact, that hardly seems like an Athiest despot to me.

"Fact is, these evil men killed FAR more people over the past century than anyone avowing a belief in God."

Fact is, most of these me, yes despots they were, DID believe in God.

"I've just laid out for you how ridiculous that statement is."

And I just laid out for you, in the Hitler quote anyways, how ridiculous YOURS is sir.

"Fact is, most of these me, yes despots they were, DID believe in God."

Wrong.

Hitler would SAY anything to further his position. There is plenty of evidence that Hitler indeed acted according to atheist thought.

Also research the documents of Marx, Lenin & Engels. A core belief of communist thought, which they championed, is that there is no God.

Better brush up on your history, yourself.

Spin on.

Herb

Herb, you're pathetic! Do some basic research before you mouth off next time.

If you think the founders of communism were theists, let's see your proof.

Spin away.

Herb

Herb wrote:
There is plenty of evidence that Hitler indeed acted according to atheist thought.

But unlike you, someone actually spent quite a bit of time looking into the subject and concluded Hitler was neither a Christian nor an atheist. See the web page above.

Andrew

"Hitler would SAY anything to further his position."

WHAT THE FUCK?

As would you sir. You've demonstrated this many times over. In this, you two are peers.

Sit on that one for a while. Spin if it makes you feel better about it.

Thump, thump, fucking thumpitty thump thump!

Being a ULTRA REICH WINGER has caused MASS MURDERS!
Being TOO Conservative is the problem...
Look how many Iraqis DUHbya has killed!!! Look at Hitler who was EXTREME!
neo-CONers USE God as there PROPAGANDA to get their narrow minded agenda to the masses.
Thump the Bible SLOW Herb!
Why is EVERYTHING about Religion with you? If that's YOUR life great.
Why can't the rest of the people on here be what they want to be? My must they follow what you believe?
When you are judged by the ALMIGHTY on HIS day all FALSE Religions will fall! You had better NOT be in the FALSE Religion because your going down just like the rest of us sinners!
Banging on your pulpit here is doing NOBODY any good. You come off as a Religious EXTREME Right Wing nut!!!!!!
So Preach to the ones that want it NOT the ones that turn away.....
Jesus LET everyone come to him not the other way around.......

Religions may fail but Jesus will never fail, Trix.

SO why follow ONE certain Religion WW???
That's flawed thinking!

I didn't say religion, I said Jesus.

"I didn't say religion, I said Jesus."

It's not God, or Jesus, that any of us have a problem with.

It's their whack-job followers. Not the vast majority of them, the few that defame the good names of God and Jesus to achieve their own agenda.

And if YOU look up history, Sir Herbert Milhous, you will know that Hitler was actually born into a Jewish family, and he was indeed into Catholicism. I dare you to look it up. Hitler thought of himself as God-like and he felt that he was one of God's chosen ones to "follow His action".

Hitler hated Jews, what are you talking about? He killed people because their faith in Christ and I can show you many examples of where thats true. Hitlers enemies were Christians as much as they were Jews. I suggest it is God and Jesus that your problem is really with. I might add that they are one and the same.

"Hitler hated Jews, what are you talking about? He killed people because their faith in Christ and I can show you many examples of where thats true. Hitlers enemies were Christians as much as they were Jews."

Ok, show me. Show me that I am wrong and don't know what the hell I am talking about. Please, show me. I DARE you to.

Give me proof, buddy. Show me the way.

Hitler's cross by Erwin W. Lutzer. you need to find that somewhere and you will see how Hitler used the church for his own purposes. You will see how Bonhoffer was killed for his faith by the Nazis. You will see how the church of Jesus Christ was under a lot of persecution because it dared to speak against Hitler.

thump thump thump, poop poop poop.

WW said>>>
you need to find that somewhere and you will see how Hitler used the church for his own purposes.

Kind like the neo-CONers use it?? Kinda like DUHbya and Co. used it in 2000 and 2004??? Huh? Sounds kind of the same.....
Good point WW! Good to know YOU know what's going on in the US! Your REALLY on our side!!!

At least we allow churches. The communists like yourself won't allow churches.

thump thump thump, poop poop poop.

You need to take care of your headache. I understand that hearing the truth can cause one.

poop poop poop. thump thump thump.

No argument?

The troll is trolling! Don't take the bait! It tastes like poop.

(Not that I know what poop tastes like)

exactly, if it smells like poop, looks like poops, sits there like poop, IT IS poop!

(Sorry andrew)

What it shows me is the lack of security you have in your own convictions and the way you prove it by the garbage you throw out at people.

If I were a monkey at the zoo, I'd really enjoy throwing my banana peels and crap at you.

Mrs. Hoo Flung Doo

I don't believe you are woman. You insult and cuss like a man.

Leftist atheists try to say that 'religion' is the big cause of war.

Herb, read your history

Remember the Crusades
Ongoing troubles in Ireland and the Middle East
Bosnia
the 'ethnic cleaning" in Africa
unrest in Indonesia

the list goes on

Religion is the cause for more wars than economic causes.

That, though, does not turn me away from religion as God knows I am sorry for ever having to kill someone in a war that was for economic reasons -- Vietnam.

Irag and Afghanistan is a war caused by both religion and economic reasons, which is why there will never be a winner.

Thanks for the compliment, you sexist/ bigot/racist/homophobe/imbecile!

Author: Radioblogman
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 2:32 pm


Leftist atheists try to say that 'religion' is the big cause of war.

Herb, read your history

The history shows that atheists are the cause of war. just look at the leaders who have murdered thousands who were atheists.


Remember the Crusades

the crusades were politically driven and had nothing to do with faith in God. Have you ever read about the Moslems and how evil they were at the time? Should we have left them alone?



Ongoing troubles in Ireland and the Middle East
Bosnia
the 'ethnic cleaning" in Africa
unrest in Indonesia

Those had nothing to do with religion. The people there were fanatics who had no fear of God but wanted power

the list goes on

Religion is the cause for more wars than economic causes.

That is so outrageously false. Wars are caused by the hunger for power not by any faith in God

That, though, does not turn me away from religion as God knows I am sorry for ever having to kill someone in a war that was for economic reasons -- Vietnam.

Irag and Afghanistan is a war caused by both religion and economic reasons, which is why there will never be a winner.

In case you forget many were persecuted in both countries because of their faith. I see a lot of bitterness toward God in this post and it really saddens me. Jeremiah says "the heart is desparately wicked and who can know it." We need to realize that God is not the problem, we are

My hats off to you, Wayne.

You single-handedly [and not ham-fistedly, I might add] dismantled a clearly erroneous liberal view.

You are the man.

Herbert Milhous

OK, Wayne, you and Herb win. There is no use with arguing with ignorant people who never studied history other than what they saw in fictional movies.

Believe what you want, there is no changing your closed minds.

Author: Herb
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 4:27 pm


My hats off to you, Wayne.

You single-handedly [and not ham-fistedly, I might add] dismantled a clearly erroneous liberal view.

You are the man.

Herbert Milhous

------
Thanks Herb! With God's help we can beat those guys.

Dismantled? Hardly!

To sit here and claim that there is no connection between religion and terrorism today and throughout history is like saying there is no connection between fat people and food.

There is no connection between faith and terrorism and its denial to say there is one.God does NOT cause terrorism, we do

Fat people use food in a detrimental way. Alcoholics use booze in a detrimental way. Violent zealots use religion in a detrimental way.

The name calling that has been taking place on this thread almost sounds like it could have come out of the Phil Hendrie Show.

Sorry, but I read through D'Souza's essay, and I think that he is way off the mark. Hitler killed off lots of people who didn't agree with him, but I have not seen anything authoritative that says that he intended to bring about an atheistic society in Germany. On the contrary, he made deals with Pope Pius XII because it was politically expedient, and scholars suggest that he did advocate his own brand of Christianity with an anti-Semitic Jesus.

I can't say that I fully appreciate the logic behind the notion that tyrants, despots, xenophobes, and racists who believe in a deity will kill fewer people than those who don't. How many people, under this logic, would God say that it is prudent to kill?

What religion says that its okay to kill? I don't know of one that does.

The Monitor received many letters questioning the claim that Adolf Hitler advanced a "self-proclaimed atheist ideology."

Dinesh D'Souza responds: Adolf Hitler vehemently rejected the traditional Christian faith into which he was born. During his rise to power, to win the support of German Lutherans, Hitler sometimes used boilerplate rhetoric such as "...I am doing the Lord's work." He also invoked Christ's death at the hands of the Jews in order to build Christian support for his (secular and racial, not religious) anti-Semitism.

Once in power, Hitler and the Nazis extolled an atheist ideology that sought to replace Christian values with the new Nietzschean concept of the "superman" and the "will to power."

That was actually a pretty interesting post. I have no argument or anything. It's just that I learned something and I thought I'd note it.

Assuming it's true, of course. And when Herb posts factual things like that, there is more than a kernal of truth in that stuff.

So thanks, man.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1129/p08s02-cole.html

Hey yeah - no. I'm not even going to click that. I wasn't being sarcastic. I meant it. I believe you.

Hmm...

We've got a batch of Christians right now, seeking to replace American values with Christian ones. Sound familar?

We've also got Muslims looking to do similar things in their parts of the world. History is littered with this crap.

Imposing ones own belief system, or a belief system that serves to reinforce one's goals is something bad people do. --you know the kind of people that want what they want at all costs.

All things considered, this is not exactly a strong supporting statement for the idea that we need faith to prevent terror.

For a proper consideration of this matter, we really need to take a hard look at a batch of wars, their leaders, and the factors that contributed to their leadership position.

We are likely to find plenty of religious wars as well as other kinds of wars. BTW, war is not exactly terror either, which further muddies the waters.

So, where are we going with this?

Are we trying to say that a person having some sort of faith is somehow superior to one who currently does not? I don't think that's gonna fly at all. That's the kind of stuff that starts wars.

Maybe we should start trying to catagorize matters of faith and see whose is better or more in line with God's will, bible, etc...? We've been doing that as a race for ages.

Plenty of wars on that score too. All pretty messy.

Are we somehow gonna tie being religious, or maybe being a specific kind of religious to momma, apple pie and the flag, wrapped around Bush and the fight against terror. Having faith is the American thing to do nationalistic crap?

All of that is completely arbitrary BS.

Come on, where is this going?

"All things considered, this is not exactly a strong supporting statement for the idea that we need faith to prevent terror."

Oh. Yeah. No. I'm not saying it is a strong debate point. I'm just saying that it was interesting. It almost reads, from the way Herb quoted it, that it supports your point too, KBBT.

I probably should have realized that Herb's post must not mean what I thought it meant - but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying that that is a semi-intersting point of history. Regardless of WHY he said it, I found it interesting.

I think it does. And it is interesting too.

It's all about some simplistic general negative approach. In general terms these two, along with many others like them, go for stuff like: hitler is really bad, he was an athiest, so they are bad, so that makes us faithful good.

Fifth grade stuff.

And he was a vegetarian TOO!

Any Eddie Izzard fans in here?

KBBT, if you have not seen Eddie Izzard's Dress to Kill - I'm tellin' ya; It will change your life.

Haven't seen it.

Wonder if I can get it on Netflix?

Oohh vegans are very bad. All socialist, gun hating, hippies. Can't have those running around? Might bring back the free love...

Oh dude - email me your addy. I got many copies.

Or a PO box or work address or whatever.

But yes, Netflix works too.

I still want to know if you can name one religion that says that its okay to murder.

No.

There.

Addy coming your way.

"Any Eddie Izzard fans in here? KBBT, if you have not seen Eddie Izzard's Dress to Kill - I'm tellin' ya; It will change your life."

Ding ding ding! Izzard fan here. (5 dvds)

"Dress To Kill" It will change your life."

Yep. Absolutely. Best stand up comedy DVD ever. Period. Yep, that includes being better than Pryor, Kaufman, Carlin et al.

Yes. You. Must. Absolutely. See. This. DVD!

(Won an Emmy by the way.)

"Come on, where is this going?"

Read the topic thread.

Herb

Good.

That's not been demonstrated. Nice to know.

IMHO, conflicts in ideology are the source.

lack of tolerance is at the root of all this. Honestly, it's all people, depends on the character really. Could be religious, not, or just wierd. All have the potential for terror, given the right combination of events.

It's less than honest to say it's one particular ideology, when a quick look back at our history shows us this is just not the case.

We simply do not get along well as a race.

In this, religion can do as much good as ethics and rational thought can. All the goals are the same you know. Just depends again on people and their character. Also depends on our general take on this as a race as well.

Right now, this crap is tolerated in some part of the world. Funny how tolerance works.... Fix this, and the ideology becomes a debate as it should.

We both should welcome that and work toward seeing it a reality.

I still say what causes it is pride. There is a lot of greed involved too. One person has something another person wants and he will stop at nothing to get it. The heart is desparately wicked and who can know it?

When someone straps on the dynamite, prays to god, then blows up people, it's RELIGION that is motivating him, not pride or greed.

The majority of posters here appear to agree that none of the major world religions says that the murder of innocents is ok.

THEREFORE:

When someone straps on the dynamite, prays to god, then blows up people, it's a TWISTING of religion, not pride or greed.

Herbert

Apparently in the NW there is a fear of God. Herb and Wayne are closer to the truth than the others are.....

Regardless, religion plays a role much bigger than anything else. So to deny that a religion and terror/war link does not exist is ridiculous.

If they weren't so fanatic about their religion and so convinced of their place in the "afterlife" they would agree to be suicide bombers.

Religion has NOTHING to do with terror! Its about greed, envy and pride. Faith in God does NOT cause terror.

Nope. When you pray and then kill, it's religion that is motivating you.

Prayer doesn't cause murder and you know it.

and yes alot of thing have been done in the name of religion. But the tyrannts that were mentioned earlier were atheists (In Hitlers case he was more into spiritualism that I would see closer to witchcraft than Christianity)........as far as suicide bombers only those who 'hijack' religion would do that. Wayne and Herb have a strong conviction and so do some libs on this blog site and neither will ever change their position but to claim that Christianity is bad because of the inquistion is also wrong.

"If they weren't so fanatic about their religion.."

Wrong.

If they didn't TWIST their religion.

Look, plenty of Christians and Jews give to the poor. Most hospitals in the past century were founded by people of faith. Same thing with orphanages.

Just because some looney guy tries to link himself to a group, doesn't mean that group supports any wrong he or she does.

You accuse conservatives of being 'too black and white.' Here you're doing PRECISELY that, Mr. Dogmatic.

How about some consistency?

Herb

The argument is whether there "is a link between religion and terrorism." The link exists, and history, along with today's events, prove that beyond a doubt.

Suicide bombers are killing in the name of their religion. Abortion doctor killers are killing in the name of their religion. It is the perceived reward upon death, directly told to them by their religion, that motivates them to commit these acts.

Thats baloney. The suicide bombers kill out of greed and nothing else. Faith in God has nothing to do with murder. How can that be if God tells us not to murder? I think maybe you need God in your life and you can see for yourself.

And Herb is right. Has anyone forgotten the good that Christians have done, especially with giving to the poor? Why do you hate Christianity so much, Pete? And its not me you hate. Jesus said that you hate Christians because you hated him first.

As I said before Wayne, I don't hate Christianity. What I hate is zealots like you and Herb who PERVERT Christianity, just the same as those suicide bombers who pervert Islam to murder people.

You hate Christianity! you are being dishonest if you say you hate just me and Herb. Its Jesus that you hate. The world hates us because it hated him first.You had a bad experience in a church probably some time back, maybe some girl dumped you and you have blamed God for that ever since. Why can't you learn that the problems of this world are created by men and not God? DOn't you know we will all answer to him?

Gosh, it feels like we've been going around in circles here. Religions and faith aren't directly responsible for terrorism and killing. Instead, it is the terrorist leaders who manipulate some people with strong religious convictions into doing things that would otherwise seem unreasonable.

Since suicide bombers are mentioned above, consider this: How could a person who has no belief in an afterlife possibly use greed to rationalize an attack that will kill him? There would be nothing for him to gain because he would be dead.

Running around with Christians doesn't automatically make you good or bad; what matters is what you do. Neither does running around with Atheists or vegans make you automatically good or bad. Let's face it, there are Christians who have done good things and Christians who have done some bad things. The same applies to the Atheists and even the vegans. Yes, I said vegans; there have been documented incidents of extremist vegans bombing fast food restaurants and animal experimentation laboratories. Even the vegans' belief in the protection of other life forms can be twisted into something violent.

There are Christians who have done good things and I am glad you realized that! Why does everybody else think we are so evil? Greed is what is behind the evils that we face. When we want something that somebody else has bad enough we will do anything to get it. Thats not God's fault, thats human nature. Its the struggle for power that is behind terrorism, not faith in God.

You are spinning and spiraling. Been there. Good luck.

If you start feeling like you want to use the phrase " dirty pillows " anytime soon Wayne, you might be a Christian!

"What I hate is zealots like you and Herb who PERVERT Christianity, just the same as those suicide bombers..."

Nice.

Keep comparing peaceful Christians to suicide bombers.

Wayne & I need say little else.

You make it obvious who the extremists here are.

Herb

"Wayne & I need say little else."

Good, that will be a benefit to the forum as a whole.

Sadly, the reason you can't handle the Truth is because you don't even believe Truth exists.

Therefore, you wouldn't know it if you saw it.

Yet like the law of gravity, you will reckon with it, sooner or later, like it or not.

Herb

Mao and Stalin may have been athiests, but Hitler wasnt. In Mein Kampf he makes several mentions of the supreme being.

Herb, prove the "truth" to me and I'll believe it. Trouble is, your word alone isn't enough, and neither are your scare tactics. In fact, if the "truth" was provable, we wouldn't be having this converstation. Your "truth" holds as much water as mine does, no matter how hard you wish it to be otherwise.

You won't believe it if God spoke to you directly. Your mind is made up and no proof would convince you. The faith has to come before the evidence. Thats the way true religion must work.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 2:29 pm


You are spinning and spiraling. Been there. Good luck.

If you start feeling like you want to use the phrase " dirty pillows " anytime soon Wayne, you might be a Christian!

-------
If only you would admit to some good that Christians do maybe things might be easier here. As long as you think we all are nothing but evil we will argue in circles!

"...your word alone isn't enough, and neither are your scare tactics..."

What's to be scared of? If there is no God, why would you worry in the slightest?

If your Creator won't hold you accountable in the afterlife, why should you have fear?

PSALMS 14:1

Herb

Quoting the bible does not prove anything.

I'm not scared, but you're trying to scare people into believing your crap. It's the hallmark of all religious belief...believe in it OR ELSE!!!

Quoting the Bible is the only proof you need. You won't believe anything else if you won't believe what God has written down.

The bible was written by man, not god.

The Bible was inspired by God. That means God breathed through human writers.

> The bible was written by man, not god.

Amen. Didn't we discuss the ecumenical councils that put the Bible together in another thread on this board? I am talking about the conferences where a bunch of church guys got together and sorted out what was to go into the Bible and what books were apocryphal.

Of course the Bible was written by men. But it was inspired by God, that is God breathed.

"I am talking about the conferences where a bunch of church guys got together and sorted out what was to go into the Bible and what books were apocryphal."

As Mrs. Clinton would say, "Not so fast."

You left out one important piece of information.

This 'bunch of church guys' were guided by the Holy Ghost.

God inspired what they wrote. That's why the Bible is holy and why it transcends mere human thought.

God's eternal truths don't always make sense to mortal man. His ways are not our ways.

Isaiah 55:7-8

Herb

...Sorry. When I wrote my post above, the last post displayed was the one written by Reinstatepete. It seems that it takes a few minutes for posts to show up on the board once they are submitted.

> This 'bunch of church guys' were guided by the Holy
> Ghost.

OK, this is another one of the big faith questions. Which clergy people are truly "guided by the Holy Ghost" and which ones are the charlatans?

Is Benny Hinn guided by the Holy Ghost?
Is the Pope guided by the Holy Ghost?
Is the Rev. Sun Young Moon (sp?) guided by the Holy Ghost?
Are any Muslim clerics guided by the Holy Ghost?
Are people like Uri Geller guided by the Holy Ghost?
Was David Koresh guided by the Holy Ghost?

I doubt if Moon or Koresh were. I don't know about the others on your list. I don't think much of Hinn or the others on TBN.

It's all hearsey.

Wayne said - " I don't think much of Hinn or the others on TBN."

Why not?

He doesn't preach from the Bible Have you heard any of the TBN preachers? I think they turn more people off than they do on to the gospel.

I know I'm violating my rule to not comment directly to a troll, but a door opened here and I'll take just one crack.

wayne said: "I think they turn more people off than they do on to the gospel."

Me: is it possible that you are doing the same thing here? turning people off?

The Gospel is not a popularity contest.

Jesus and His followers were not liked by countless evil-doers who meant them harm.

Of course the Gospel is a turn off. Who wants to change? Who wants to risk looking foolish? It runs contrary to human nature.

And therein lies the entire point. For with our own devices, we cannot save ourselves. No one gets out of here alive.

Herbert M.

Sure it is!

We've got just a ton of gospels. Even among fairly well defined religious sects, there are differences.

We've got churches on every corner fighting for mindshare. Nothing wrong with that, but popularity is a big factor.

By the way, our freedom of religion here actually promotes that aspect of things. All good.

The fact is Jesus was rejected by his own people just like the prophets said would happen. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God and he demands self denial. Lets face it who wants to deny ones self? As long as people are self centered Jesus will never be popular.

Author: Skeptical
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 9:57 pm


I know I'm violating my rule to not comment directly to a troll, but a door opened here and I'll take just one crack.

wayne said: "I think they turn more people off than they do on to the gospel."

Me: is it possible that you are doing the same thing here? turning people off?

----
Maybe its the words that I speak that turn people off. You see the truth hurts!

But Jesus is popular!

Seems to me, that means a clear majority of people are not self-centered.

In fact, a fair number of them go out of their way to express their faith.

Seems to me popularity has a significant connection here.

Wayne said " Maybe its the words that I speak that turn people off. You see the truth hurts!"

Wayne, you are not a prophet. Take it down a notch.

"Maybe its the words that I speak that turn people off."


Yep. You got that one right.

It's all hearsay. The holy ghost, Santa Claus, and the tooth fairy all have the same chance of being real.

wayne said: "I think they turn more people off than they do on to the gospel."

Me: is it possible that you are doing the same thing here? turning people off?

----
Maybe its the words that I speak that turn people off. You see the truth hurts!

You didn't answer the question. How can I know the truth if you don't give an answer?

Are YOU turning people off here in the forum? Yes or no? I want to know the truth. please tell me. Yes or no?

Jesus answered the question the best: You shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. And its not me thats turning anybody off its the truth that I am saying. The truth hurts! You have the notion that truth depends solely on ones political affiliation.

Author: Kbbt
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:01 pm


But Jesus is popular!

Seems to me, that means a clear majority of people are not self-centered.

In fact, a fair number of them go out of their way to express their faith.

Seems to me popularity has a significant connection here.

----
Gee if Jesus is so popular why don't you believe in him? He said that if anyone wants to follow me let him deny himself take up his cross and follow him. How is that popular to deny ones self?

Why was Jesus crucified if he was so popular for pete's sake?

I'm now convinced that you have totally lost your mind.

LOL!!!!

I just spoke with Jesus and he insists he's real.

I read what Jesus said in the Bible and I am sure he is real.

Aaaaaarrrgh! This discussion is pointless. It is as if there is some huge iron curtain down the middle of this board, with the "Atheism is responsible for mass murder" people on one side and the, "that's a shameless piece of propaganda" people on the other. Have fun spinning your wheels, folks!

I don't want to know what jesus thinks, I want to know what YOU think wayne:

Are YOU turning people off here in the forum? Yes or no? I want to know the truth. please tell me. Yes or no?

I gave you my answer. You are turned off because I speak what I believe to be the truth. What you want is for truth to be anything but absolute. There is no way in the world that truth can't be absolute. Sooner or later you will have to deal with some absolute truth. I say it will be much easier to deal with that now than later.

I know I should be slapped for this, but please let us know exactly what this absolute truth is Wayne.

Are you saying your words are absolute truth in general? Perhaps only your most recent ones are?

Maybe you've some truth you are just waiting to reveal?

wayne, lets stay focused. You said TBN preachers turn more people off to religion than turn them on. I believe you are correct about that.

but now, what about you, do YOU think you are turning more people on or off about religion in this forum?

Wayne asked " Why was Jesus crucified if he was so popular for pete's sake? "

Yeah. Why, Wayne? What's your best guess? Take a stab at it. So to speak.

Can you answer any of your OWN questions?

Why was Jesus crucified? Maybe it was because he was NOT so popular? How can you crucify someone who is popular? That makes no sense.

skep: Its my words that turn you off and thats it.The preachers of TBN I don't like to watch because they don't preach the word of God a lot of times. I try to preach what the word says. People want truth to not be absolute and what I preach is absolute truth. What I am saying is that relevant truth just doesn't work and thats what people don't want to hear. They want to justify every kind of sin in the book. If we want to search after God we can't do that. We have to deal with absolute truth.

I gotta ask, are you on a mission of some kind?

Most people don't say, "I try to preach.."

Just wondering.

I have a question: when did it become against the law to preach?

I didn't say it was against the law. Only asked if you were on a mission of some kind. Again, most --in fact, nearly everyone, I've ever met would not phrase their response in the way that you did.

The only people I've met, that used that means of communicating what you did, were people on a mission. Pastors, elders, up and coming members of the church.

Seriously, just wondering.

No strings attached, no attack, just curious if you were the exception --that's all.

OK, that was really a very wierd response from WW! I too wonder how someone's brain jumps to that kind of conclusion and response.

I wonder if it really IS against the law to preach the Bible! You are implying that it is.

Not at all.

I'm wondering what drove you to begin "preaching". I'm simply curious about that. Again, not an attack. It's not against the law, unless it's disturbing the peace or somethinbg bizzare like that.

Most people would say talking about god, the bible, or something similar. Nobody says, "I try to preach...", unless they are following some directive, or path they feel obligated to persue.

Really, the only mainstream use of this I find common is, "I don't want to sound too preachy, but ....".

Why are you compelled to preach Wayne?

"Why are you compelled to preach Wayne?"

Wayne is following the Great Commission:

GO YE INTO ALL THE WORLD AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE. - Mark 16:15

GO YE THEREFORE AND TEACH ALL NATIONS... ALL THINGS WHATSOEVER I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. - Matthew 28: 19-20

Herbert M.

I really wanted to hear that from Wayne.

Anyone of faith, who knows the bible, knows that passage, yet they never use the word "preach" in the context Wayne used here, unless they are on some mission, path, etc...

Since it's gonna be hosed up now, I might as well fill in the context here.

Wayne has been a member of PDXRadio for at least 6 years. During that time, he normally kept to the radio side of the board, engaging in politics on nothing more than a cursory scale.

All of the sudden, *bam* here we have Wayne gettin' the word out huge. Connecting the dots, we get his use of the word "preach" here, in a context normally reserved for those who are engaged in the business of preaching, or have been obligated to do some preaching.

Typically, this happens as part of a growing upward movement in a church, missionary work, etc...

It does not happen that ordinary worshippers engage the word in this way.

It's no biggie to me and I don't have some nasty attack planned or any other thing.

An answer to this would explain a lot we've seen lately. This context might help us understand what we've been seeing and that would be a good thing where frustrations and tension are concerned.

If I were to wager on this, I would place a solid bet on Wayne being on some sort of mission, path, something directed from his church. It could be that he just decided to go for it too, but given his posting history, this is not indicated.

Rather than insert further into this Herb, let's let Wayne tell us what the mission is?

Kbbt said>>>>
All of the sudden, *bam* here we have Wayne gettin' the word out huge. Connecting the dots, we get his use of the word "preach" here, in a context normally reserved for those who are engaged in the business of preaching, or have been obligated to do some preaching.

Maybe he has had a moment of weakness and needs God's help? And to repay that he is trying to get the word out. Only problem is God will come to you if you let him in. He is ALMIGHTY and ruler of EVERYTHING.... God will find man!
IF YOU BELIEVE....

Could be!

I, for one, would like to know actually.

Do you honestly really care? I have my doubts. Maybe you both should try serving others. Maybe it might make you less bitter toward America.

WW you don't know a GD thing about me! You INSULT me and say that I don't care???
PULL IT OUT OLD MAN!
I GIVE more than YOU have EVER given! I'll bet on that! From The Douggy center to Make a Wish I've done a lot of stuff. How about you?
I have my doubts about YOU.....

"I would place a solid bet on Wayne being on some sort of mission, path, something directed from his church."

If Wayne attends a Bible-based church, I would hope so. But even if it wasn't, it's then in the Bible for all to read.

It's a clear passage.

Faith without works is dead, my friend.

Herb

WHICH Bible Herb???

It's been RE-written how many times?? It's been RE-Written by MAN and man isn't PERFECT. Things could have been omitted or RE-Written to meet the person needs at the time....

Which Bible Herb????

Let us suppose we have five manuscript copies of an original document that no longer exists. Each of the manuscript copies are different. Our goal is to compare the manuscript copies and ascertain what the original must have said. Here are the five copies:

Manuscript #1: Jesus Christ is the Savior of the whole worl.

Manuscript #2: Christ Jesus is the Savior of the whole world.

Manuscript #3: Jesus Christ s the Savior of the whole world.

Manuscript #4: Jesus Christ is th Savior of the whle world.

Manuscript #5: Jesus Christ is the Savor of the whole wrld.

Could you, by comparing the manuscript copies, ascertain what the original document said with a high degree of certainty that you are correct? Of course you could.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html


With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be massive discrepancies -just the opposite is true. New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of the text (compared to only 95% for the Iliad). Most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. A few words have been changed or added. There are two passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine). Most Bibles include the options as footnotes when there are discrepancies. How could there be such accuracy over a period of 1,400 years of copying? Two reasons: The scribes that did the copying had meticulous methods for checking their copies for errors. 2) The Holy Spirit made sure we would have an accurate copy of God's word so we would not be deceived.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html

Wayne's_world writes:
I wonder if it really IS against the law to preach the Bible.

Weren't YOU the one standing up for Newt Gingrich and his ideas about restricting free speech? I'll bet you would raise holy hell if HE advocated restricting your preaching.

From Trixter:
WHICH Bible Herb???

It's been RE-written how many times?? It's been RE-Written by MAN and man isn't PERFECT. Things could have been omitted or RE-Written to meet the person needs at the time....


You know that's the thing these religious nuts constantly fail to realize. I can't actually say the bible isn't the word of God, it may be. I CAN say the bible was written by mortals and as long as there have been storytellers, there has been imbellishment including what's in the bible. I guess that's what it means to "have the faith". To believe thing that just make no sense to a reasoning person.

Manuscript Evidence for Ancient Writings
---------------------------------------------------------

Author Written Earliest Copy Time Span Number of Manuscripts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caesar 100-44 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,000 yrs 10
Plato 427-347 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,200 yrs 7
Thucydides 460-400 B.C. 900 A.D. 1,300 yrs 8
Tacitus 100 A.D. 1100 A.D. 1,000 yrs 20
Suetonius 75-160 A.D. 950 A.D. 800 yrs 8
Homer (Iliad) 900 B.C. 400 B.C. 500 yrs 643
New Testament 40-100 A.D. 125 A.D. 25-50 yrs 24,000

Yes Wayne I do care.

As for serving others... you've no idea and I'm gonna leave it at that. Anyone here reading me for this long knows better.

It is established then, you are preaching.

Over doing it does as much harm as not doing it at all. --just something to consider. So, are you on a mission of some kind? What is it? It would go a long way toward putting your words here in context if we knew.

...or did you just decide one day to begin getting the word out in earnest? If so, what happened to change you in this way? Seems to be a pretty significant change. Must have been moving and important. Care to share?



Aok, yep. That's my beef as well. We know absolutely that the Bible was written by men. We also know absolutely that law existed before the time the Bible was written.

We do not know if god exists or not, and if god existed, if god chose to speak through the acts of men.

The former above, is matters of fact. Absolute truth, undisputed.

The latter is faith, not matters of fact and by definition cannot be absolute and lies currently in dispute.

These are easy things to grasp. None of this diminishes conviction, value of faith, etc... If it did, we would have seen far less overall worship than we have.

IMHO, the big issue continues to be some people being unable to seperate conviction from fact. Failing in this, we leave the door open then to make what is fact and what is not, where matters of law are concerned, arbitrary.

It's almost as if they honestly believe getting their convictions embodied in the law follows to make them truths of some kind.

I just don't get that.

The same freedom that permits this behavior, however unjustifed it may be, is the same freedom they undermine with their persuit of what I can only call legislated truth. Whoever has the most dollars and the best connections then establishes what is truth and what is not, in the eyes of our shared law, and I know that's not just no matter what.

Anyone, interested in the foundations of law and interested in it's power to regulate and what that means, would grasp this and act accordingly.

Sigh... Such clearly is not the case with a significant percentage of us.

Author: Aok
Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 5:35 pm


From Trixter:
WHICH Bible Herb???

It's been RE-written how many times?? It's been RE-Written by MAN and man isn't PERFECT. Things could have been omitted or RE-Written to meet the person needs at the time....


You know that's the thing these religious nuts constantly fail to realize. I can't actually say the bible isn't the word of God, it may be. I CAN say the bible was written by mortals and as long as there have been storytellers, there has been imbellishment including what's in the bible. I guess that's what it means to "have the faith". To believe thing that just make no sense to a reasoning person.




THERE IS ONLY ONE BIBLE!

Which one Wayner????
TELL ME!!!!!

The Mormons Bible??
The Jehovah's witness's?
The Catholics???
Protestants???

There Bible's are all different Wayner.....

WHO'S IS RIGHT????

Wayne is. That's it. Just Wayne.

About what, we have no idea anymore.

Hey, there is the Christian scientists Bible too.

Lots of Bibles. Maybe I'll buy a set and send them to the Wayner.

Anyone have an address?

Opening that set might make his head explode!

There is only one Bible. There are many books about religion but there is only one Bible.

Is the Catholic bible different than yours Wayne?

That's right!
WW is the ONLY one right!!!
Liberals are WRONG!!
Anyone NOT neo-CONer is wrong!!!
Anyone NOT ULTRA-RIGHT is wrong!!!!
Anyone AGAINST killing innocent women and children in Iraq is wrong!
Anyone who is a FREE THINKER is wrong???
Anyone for FREE SPEECH is wrong!

ONLY WW IS RIGHT!!!!

Author: Chickenjuggler
Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:40 pm


Is the Catholic bible different than yours Wayne?

----
It looks similar to me. They use the Acopriphya (I hope I spelled that right) but Protestents don't. Other than that its the same as mine.

Author: Trixter
Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:43 pm


That's right!
WW is the ONLY one right!!!
Liberals are WRONG!!
Anyone NOT neo-CONer is wrong!!!
Anyone NOT ULTRA-RIGHT is wrong!!!!
Anyone AGAINST killing innocent women and children in Iraq is wrong!
Anyone who is a FREE THINKER is wrong???
Anyone for FREE SPEECH is wrong!

ONLY WW IS RIGHT!!!!

---
Not me, Trix, God is right. I am just his spokesman.

Really?

So you're self-appointed, delusional, and a piss-poor spokesman to boot. You do NOT represent a kind and just God in any manner.

If She wasn't so darn busy right now, she'd come down here and kick your ass downstairs to the hot place.

Don't call God a she if you know whats good for you.

I think Wayne should be banned as a spammer. I am so sick and tired of talking about god, I'm ready to ditch this place.

WW IGNORANTLY said>>>>>
Don't call God a she if you know whats good for you.

And U know for a fact what sex God is???? Your either as ignorant as everyone thinks you are or your clinically insane.....
I BELIEVE and that is my choice... Do I believe that God is a man??? I don't know! God is a DEVINE entity!
Saved Oct 10th 1987 and I haven't met God yet! If you have Wayner your actually dead....
GIVE ME BACK MY PART OF YOUR PENSION!

I am sure God is a male no matter what you say. Do you believe in God at all, Trix? You argue like an atheist.

God has a penis?

"I am sure God is a male no matter what you say."

OK. Thats new. You used to say that you didn't know for sure. But now you are?

OK. Good to know.

Any particular thing happen? Or did you just decide it?

I don't see God as a "she" at all in the scriptures. I think you need to show me any religion in which GOd is a "she." That bothers me and its not Biblical.

Wayne just makes stuff up as he goes to make it fit what he wants in life.

WW u must be an atheist.

Thanks for your UNChristian like insight

Its not unChristian to think of God as a "he". You have nothing to base your female version on.

There's no proof god is man or woman. In fact, there is no proof there is even a god. It's all hearsay.

Hummmmmmm

Author: Reinstatepete
Sunday, December 03, 2006 - 7:39 pm


There's no proof god is man or woman. In fact, there is no proof there is even a god. It's all hearsay.

---
There is no proof there is no God either.

Hummmmmmm

While there are obviously religions that hold matriarchal-led values and views, and many that pre-date Christianity, naturally I'm not going to waste my time on that for WW.

Later, boys, I got a baby to feed with my man-boobs.

ROFL!!!!!