http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15857761/

“The root of the terrorism that plagues our planet is not any of the divine religions, but atheism, and the expression of atheism in our times (is) Darwinism and materialism."

-Wayne and Herb, please move to Turkey. You will fit in better there than here in the US.

Let's start a collection!

We could get this done before we know it.

Dogma... gotta hate it.

I need the money. I think there is a lot of truth to that.

I think it is religion that is the root of terrorism. Attempting to blame Darwin seems rather disingenuous if you ask me.

Come on, religion doesn't cause terrorism. What causes it is pride and the struggle for power. The reason people believe in Darwin at all is because there is no accountability.

Those that have issues with pride, character and struggle for power, nearly always use religion to help them in this. It's not a big stretch to tag religion as a core part of the problem and this is why:

Any fucked up ideology can be justified with religion. And that's the root of it right there.

If more people would be willing to talk rationally about religion, and honor the freedom we have here related to it, there would be almost zero religious terror. Those abusing religion would quickly be marginalized and their harm to society as a whole would be evident.

You are right though. Pride and the struggle for power are right there in the mix.

This, BTW is exactly why our nation was founded the way it was. Our founders were religious people and valued their faith highly. They valued it so highly and understood the problems that come with it, such that they crafted a government that would permit the freedom while discouraging the problems.

Of course, being on the "People don't know what a force we are!" power grab, legislating morality side of the fence, you would deny these things, not for any truth, but for your own self-interests.

The reason people believe in Darwin is because it's a viable alternative to having been created by something. No more no less.

Accountability comes in many forms. Your peers provide accountability, particularly if you value their approval and or value them as you do yourself.

Accountability can come post-mortem as well. Nobody wants to leave a bad memory and everybody would hope they mattered.

Accountability comes from life experiences as well. Make bad choices and you are highly likely to have a bad time of it.

Finally, accountability comes from within ones own self. Not everybody needs the idea of some higher being looking down on them to act in an ethical and moral way. IMHO, only the weak need some external compass to guide them in life.

That's a lotta accountability that has little to do with darwin.

Did you ever consider this in the context of our founding principles? You know, freedom, democracy and equality.

Our mutual freedom depends on us having tolerance and respect for one another. Without this, the law erodes some of our freedom in favor of others. Done enough, we all lose.

Equality reinforces this with the understanding that none of us are entitled above the others. This serves nicely to check bigotry just as well as religion can, for example.

Democracy is the idea that we are all in this together. We learn from each other and build our society from the better parts of us, thus discouraging the ugly parts.

There is one hell of a lot more to this world than the Bible. Rational thought, ethics, tolerance and compassion for our fellow people all brings a level of accountability on par with anything Religion has to offer.

And there is a bonus too! It resonates with the law in that both demand truth for justification. At the least, it demands we allow for some flexibility where truth is not known.

This is where pro-choice views come, for example. We don't have a solid answer to this dilemma, thus we leave it to the people themselves to decide, with the rest of us engaged in advocacy and debate toward common ground or new truth.

Finally, Religion often is the root cause of apathy in society. There are a lot of reasons for this, that would likely be wasted.

By contrast, what I've outlined encourages societies to grow and evolve toward a better state. Frankly, seeing things Darwins way is seeing things from a perspective that we can and do improve over time. There is both hope and accountability in this as well.

Of course if you are one of these people, who does not have the strength of character to actually participate in a society that lives, breathes and grows, then religion is all you've got. It's all put right there in front of you, nice and easy. Just shovel in the dogma and the rest of us must be wrong...

I have plenty of strength of character thank you and I have no problem learning about other faiths. I still say that what Darwinianism does is remove accountability because with evolution there is no need for any Creator. What religion gives us is hope. I don't see what hope someone has that doesn't have any religion. I mean after the end comes what happens then? Has anyone even thought of that? Suppose there is something later on? You see religion, at least true religion, is much more than any dogma it affects your outlook on life and it gives you meaning. I believe the problems people have come from their own pride and have nothing to do with religion. What people do too often is they use religion to hide behind. I have gone to church a long time and too many people go to church just to pick up a young lady. There is nothing wrong with that, but our spiritual condition should at least be something that motivates us to want to be part of a religion.

No you don't.

You are a bigot, leaning on your Church for justification.

"Come on, religion doesn't cause terrorism. What causes it is pride and the struggle for power. The reason people believe in Darwin at all is because there is no accountability."

The reason people believe in Darwin's theory is because it makes sense.

And if you don't think religion plays a role in terrorism, you are more of a dunderhead than I thought. And I am not just talking about the fundamentalist Muslim right-wing whackjobs, the bin Ladens and his ilk, but let's go back a bit. Remember the IRA, the Irish Republican Army? Yep, a bunch of Catholics who didn't like the fact that the Union Jack was flying over Northern Ireland, so they took it upon themselves to bomb and shoot out targets in England, making Heathrow Airport look like a warzone. Why? Because Catholic Ireland doesn't like Protestant England ruling Northern Ireland. Don't tell me that isn't religious terrorism.

Not all terrorism is religious of course. Timothy McVeigh didn't bomb the federal building in Oklahoma City on some religious mantra, he was pissed at the US Government and that was how he took it out on them. George W. Bush's acts of terrorism aren't religiously motivated, he just wants payback for Saddam having a pricetag on his daddy's head.

"Come on, religion doesn't cause terrorism."

Islamic fundamentalists? Terrorism? No relation???

Their driving force is RELIGION!

Yep.

All comes down to threats.

If another viable worldview / ideology exists, then the acceptance of the preferred one is always conditional.

If only we could just get rid of all the [insert others here] we would not have to worry about [insert favorite religion here].

All comes down to mindshare baby!

Author: Reinstatepete
Friday, November 24, 2006 - 12:26 pm


"Come on, religion doesn't cause terrorism."

Islamic fundamentalists? Terrorism? No relation???

Their driving force is RELIGION!

no the driving force is ambition, not religion. Human pride is behind terrorism. Faith has nothing to do with it. People have hijacked Islam into a terrorist system but I don't see how the faith is. Are you admitting a prejudice against Islam, Pete?

I'm admitting a link between religion and terrorism exists, and that there is no link between terrorism and Dawin. Islam is not the only religion to use terrorism and violence in the world's history.

There is a link between terrorism and Darwin. Hitler's Mein Kaumpf was based on the survival of the fittest. Moslem terrorists hide behind the faith so they can hide in the mosques so our troops can't find them. But religion has nothing to do with terror. Its the people who are responsible.

Yeah, ok.

So this also means religion brings nothing to the table of value then.

If it's all about the people, your faith does nothing to speak of your character.

Read what I wrote above.

You are a bigot. Your faith does nothing to change that, nor can it according to your own words.

Religion has been the ROOT of WAR for hundreds of thousands of years!!!

Wayner said>>>>>
There is a link between terrorism and Darwin.

You've GOT to be Fin kidding... RIGHT? Don't tell me that your that stupid????

6 degrees of Darwin.

By Milton Bradley.

Terrible game.

There's a link to everything. The fact that it's not a direct link means nothing to Wayne. It's all tied together by a string only he can see. ( Even though he can't - but he just decides to think it's there - so it is! )

But Wayner believes in something he can't touch, see, hear or smell......
Where's the link to that???

The Bible, Trix! The best link one can find.
There is a link to Darwinism and terrorism. Both are based on a humanistic view of life.

Which Bible WW?? It's been BASTARDIZED by so many MEN over the years... WHICH ONE!!!
Religion is TIGHTLY tied to terrorism and if you don't see it then your just Fin blind....

You really are igorant. There is only ONE! The only connection with terrorism is atheisic evolution.

The terrorists we are fighting today have delcared a holy war against us. And you're telling me there is no link between religion and terrorism? Give me a break! What's next, the sky isn't really blue? LOL!!

The terrorists are hiding behind religion. There is no fear of God in any of their hearts and no connection between the two other than that. The atheists are the people that are supplying them.

THUMP THUMP THUMP . . . and POOPING . . . ugh!

What part of radical islam is not religious in nature?

WW calls me ignorant.....

That's a laugh fucking riot...

You prove my point again with your profanity. Did you know that God is offended by that?

Radicals only hide behind Islam. I think maybe you should read the Koran and tell me where that encourages someone to blow himself up in a crowded mall. I don't know of anywhere in the Koran where one is guarenteed 72 virgins after doing that.

thump thump thump, poop poop poop.

Even if radicals hide behind Islam, as you contend, doesn't that still constitute a relationship between religion and terror?

There is no relationship between religion and terror. Unbelief is what causes terror.

"There is no relationship between religion and terror. Unbelief is what causes terror"

A truly ignorant statement.

The terror of Islamic Fundamentalists is directly attributed to their own religious fanatacism.

Its more ignorant to say that religion causes terrorism., Tell me where in the Koran or the Bible we are told its okay to kill, would you please? The terrorism comes from a lack of fear of God, not a belief in him

"Its more ignorant to say that religion causes terrorism., Tell me where in the Koran or the Bible we are told its okay to kill, would you please? The terrorism comes from a lack of fear of God, not a belief in him"

Well why then is it that Osama bin Laden blew up the USS Cole and the World Trade Center in the name of Allah? Why is it that the Irish Republican Army blew up parts of London's Heathrow Airport in the name of God?

The word of God itself does not preach terrorism. It is nowhere to be found in the Bible or Koran, you are correct. That said, these fundamentalist radicals are interpreting the word of God or Allah into their own jihad. Religious fanaticism at its finest, Sparky.

Some people are hiding behind Islam to be sure but I question whether or not they have any belief in God at all. God wrote his laws into the hearts of men. Anyone who tries to seek after God at all should know better than to tie a bomb around himself in the middle of a town square. The idea of 72 virgins is nowhere in the Koran that I know of.

If some people are hiding behind Islam, then that BY DEFAULT proves my point that religion is a root cause of terrorism.

It proves the opposite. People are terrorists because they are power hungry. God has nothing to do with it. God tells us not to kill. You need to show me any eastern religion in which murder is okay.

Apparantly it's okay in Islam, since they pray before their suicide missions and are worshipped as martyr's afterward.

The fact that you're still trying to carry on this particular argument shows how clueless you are.

It shows me what a hatred you have toward religion. Its sad the bitterness that you have toward God that makes you blame him for all of the evils of the world. Its us that are the problem, not him. I have studied Islam, have you? Murder is forbidden in the Koran.

poop poop pee doop. Whump.

WW said>>>
It shows me what a hatred you have toward religion.

What an idiot

Why do they call themselves "Holy Warriors"??

I don't hate religion, I just hate people like you that bastardize it.

You hate us because you hated Jesus first. He told us that would happen.

You've lost it!

Wayne up to his ankles in poop. Good thing he's standing on his head.

WW eyes are brown for a reason...

Notice Wayne, how liberals pepper you with queries...yet rarely ever directly answer your questions?

What's especially revealing about leftists is not what they say...it's what they DON'T say.

Herb

Notice EVERYONE, how neo-CONers pepper you with queries...yet NEVER directly answer your questions?

What's especially revealing about Nazi neo-CONers is not what they say...it's what they DON'T say.

The truth???

Those people can't handle the truth, Herb!

Author: Trixter
Monday, November 27, 2006 - 8:21 pm


WW eyes are brown for a reason...

----
I have blue eyes, Trix

Of course he does, he's the Uber Aryan Dude!

Liberals don't answer questions? More like your kind doesn't LIKE the answers that are given.

Besides, we're still waiting on you to answer how you approach women while they are on their period. HYPOCRITE!

They won't answer questions without insults or swearing.

Damn! I wish you'd just shut the hell up, Wayner the Complainer™.

The issue of religion and terrorism is that certain individuals manipulate religious belief systems and texts to convince others to commit violent acts. These terrorist leaders play on the desire of believers to be better Muslims, Christians, etc. by convincing them that these violent acts are the way to rid the world of unholy things. From the point of view of the terrorists, they are the good guys because they are cleaning up the world for God.

On the other hand, I don't really know how anyobody, including Adolf Hitler, could believe that he is making the world more perfect for Darwin. The reason for that is the way that the Darwinian theory works: organisms that are more fit for their environment are more likely to reproduce, passing on their genes to the next generation. This process just happens; it doesn't need any humans to help it along. In a sense, as soon as humans decide that certain traits are more desirable than others and start to control the population along those lines, the process has been corrupted.

Before I jump off this soapbox, there is one issue that's been really nagging me: it appears that a lot of people today have no concept of how the scientific method works. People using the scientific method don't go into an investigation with preconcieved conclusions. Creation "science" is not scientific because the creation "scientists" have already drawn up their conclusions (typically based on the Bible or some other religious text), and their work consists of selectively using data to build support for this pre-conceived conclusion. Real scientists, on the other hand, take data and ask the question, "how can these observations be explained?" The conclusions in science (they are called laws, theories, and models) are not "sacred" because real scientists will accept new conclusions if it can be demonstrated that they better fit the data.

The objection I have is that evolution is no more science than creationism is. We weren't there when the beginning happened so we can only guess how God started the creation. What evo does is it makes God an unnecessary part of the beginning. My pastor said that so beautifully last sunday. We have a world without a Creator and it leads to all kinds of problems

There is no science involved in the concept of creationism. It's a fable that has been passed on for generations.

There is less science in evolution. There is only a world view that has no need of a creator. You can't prove there is no God anymore than you can prove there is one.

"There is less science in evolution."

WTF?

So all of the fossils and bones and archeologicial discoveries that have been made linking species together through time is meaningless in your world? Tell me again what scientific evidence is there of any of the biblical stories...show me the picture of the apple core, the bones from Adam's Ribs Shack or the empty Hamm's beer can discovered at the Garden of Eden.

The evidence doesn't prove that life came from the same cell anymore than it proves that God created the heavens and the earth. One can look at the exact same fossils and say that the flood of Noah put that there. Its all a matter of faith no matter how you look at it. One person's faith is no better than another. We can't prove there is no God anymore than we can prove there is one.

"We can't prove there is no God anymore than we can prove there is one."

Well said Wayne, probably the most coherent comment I've seen you post. That is why, unlike you, I'm not willing to put all my eggs in the basket of no proof.

For once a decent comment by you! I don't think proof matters all that much.

For the record, I don't "believe in" specific theories because no theory is (or should be) infallible, as I said above. What I do trust is that the scientific method is the best tool that humans have for understanding the world.

Evolutionary theory doesn't try to explain how the first cell came into existence. It just says that once the first living organisms came into existence, a continual process of mutations and natural selection was responsible for the direction that future life forms took.

Scientists today largely agree that the evolutionary model is the best one that we have to explain the fossil record and the life forms in existence today. This model is being continually tested and improved, as it should be.

The problem with the creation "scientists" is that they are already commited to the notion that life forms were created as they exist today, without any evolutionary changes. Instead of really looking at data, they care more about how they can use data against their "evolutionist" foes. This is non-scientific thinking.

Thats a bit of an unfair comment. Many creationists believe in some kind of evo but only within a species. Our problem is when people say that all life came from the same cell. To me thats a religious idea and not a scientific one.

Who says all life came from the same cell?

Isn't that the point of macro evolution?

Not that I know of.

We've not established one source. For all we know, many different forms of early life formed in competition just as they exist today.

How can we be so sure that my cat was ever a dog?

Seems to me, we were discussing links between Darwin and terrorism. If you want to discuss the merits of his theories, that's another thread.

This one is about the claim that his ideas bring terror to the world.

That link is a high burden, not yet met on this particular thread.

I think we can safely add that it will NEVER be met (let alone pondered) by our resident mental midget, Mr. WW Poo.

Author: Kbbt
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 8:50 pm


Seems to me, we were discussing links between Darwin and terrorism. If you want to discuss the merits of his theories, that's another thread.

This one is about the claim that his ideas bring terror to the world.

That link is a high burden, not yet met on this particular thread.

------------
The problem is that is impossible in the minds of the secularist.They insist that faith causes it but I don't know how it can if the written word condemns murder, no matter which word we want to go by.

Hmm . . . darwin the terrorist, now back on track! Any other thoughts? New posters wanted!

This caught my eye:

"Like the Bible, the Koran says God made the world in six days and fashioned the first man, Adam, from dust. Other details vary, but the idea is roughly the same."

I wonder if the books are funded/printed/published/assembled by any US entities. CIA Press?

A man fashioned from dust? And you guys believe this crap??

Thats a lot easier to believe than the notion that we were ever apes.

Really? I look at an ape and see many, many similarities to humans. There's no question humans and apes are related closely. Hell, an ape is probably smarter than you are.

I look at dust, and can't help but think that if man came from dust, David Copperfield must have some involvement in it. I don't buy magic, palm readers, psychics, ghosts, or any other hocus pocus bullshit.

Sure its easier to believe. Humans were never apes. Men have never been anything but men. There is no connection between man and animals. Its easier to believe in ghosts than that.

Science proves you wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Humans and primates are indeed connected. To believe otherwise is silly.

This is a value judgment.

"easier to believe...."

Completely arbitrary. How hard something is to believe is exactly as hard as any one of us thinks it is. There is no potential for a fact, nor proof of a point here.

If anything, what's harder to believe is a function of your life path more than anything. Grow up in a culture filled with dogma, and this might be tough to accept. Grow up in a culture of science and it's cake.

Arbitrary.

After a re-read of this thread, we've not established any solid link between Darwin and terror. Really, we've shown fairly well that terror comes from people. Bad people, exhibit the potential for performing the act of terror.

I'm actually thinking hard about just what makes people bad in this way? Is is genetic then?

Seriously, beliefs either are a factor, or it's something in the sauce that makes us.

If we set aside beliefs, then some of us are born terrorists. What do you all think of that? That has some serious implications don't you think?

Could Hitler have taken a different life path and not become the baddie he ended up being? Or was he simply born Hitler?

Coupla thought examples for you all to consider:

Bob the terrorist, grows up in a science based culture. He is not a creationist. Bob has been taught to believe that only specific genetic bloodlines are supreme. Other blood lines then must either be dominated to serve the supreme, or be eliminated lest they taint the supreme blood line.

Jane the terrorist, grows up in a faith based culture. Their brand of faith is the truth. Others may be tolerated, but only to the degree that acceptance of faith is good. Other serious challenges to the one true faith must be eliminated lest they taint the truth for future generations.

Weyland the terrorist is mental. He's got some minor league brain damage that manifests itself in the form of other beings only he can see and hear. Those beings tell him that some people are bad people and will bring an end to the race if allowed to continue on their path. They must be eliminated.

These generic scenarios are taken from examples of people known to be terrorists. What do they have in common?

Discuss...

Forgot one...

Nancy the terrorist, grew up in a fairly healthy culture where beliefs are concerned. However, Nancy was abused as a child, thus scarring her in a very deep way. Her bias toward some specific combinations of race and gender become intolerable. She comes to the realization that either they must go, or she must go. Having been harmed, she then takes the path of terror seeing some justice in that her situation is not her fault, for the abuse.

Interestingly, I see in these scenarios that each of them describes a lot of people, who do not become terrorists!

All of these people, given they ended up in on of the other paths, show some potential for not becoming terrorists at all. The trigger factors are not all the same. (At least they are not to my lay mind...)

This strongly suggests to me, even though I reject this right now, that the potential for terror is something in the sauce. It is a genetic thing that can manifest, depending on the combination of genetics present in a given individual, and the culture one ends up living within.

Author: Reinstatepete
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:14 pm


Science proves you wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

Humans and primates are indeed connected. To believe otherwise is silly.

--
No it doesn't. Men have never been anything but men. We can look at a fossil anyway we want to.

you say that with such conviction but you can't prove it conclusively.

Yep, and it's off topic too.

We are discussing links betwen Darwin and terror. The validity of evolution is not really of any value here. It is a distraction that devalues the discussion as a whole.

I've posted some material here that suggests that ones belief system is not the direct link to terror. Care to comment on that Wayne, instead of digressing into the usual creation -vs- evolution stuff?

We know you are a staunch believer. Ok. So tell us what you really think about ones beliefs and terror, or please limit your posts to those relevant to the topic at hand.

I thought I made it clear. What causes terror is the hunger for power. Faith in God doesn't cause terror, pride does. We all have a bit of pride. Why do people kill other human beings? Isn't it because one person has something another wants? How is that the fault of a Supreme Being? We forget that one day we all will stand before him and have to answer for our actions.


-----------
Author: Bookemdono
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 10:39 am


you say that with such conviction but you can't prove it conclusively.

------
Neither can one prove that men were ever animals. It all comes down to faith one way or another, thats my point.

Big deal.

Tell us how Darwin is linked to terror, without labels and restating what you already have. In other words, have you anything new, or what?

If you really don't have anything, why not just let it go then? Continuing this line of discussion is off topic for the thread. Want to hash out creation -vs- evolution? Start a thread for it and go to town. Doing that here, on this one devalues the forum.

DNA proves both you and your so-called faith WRONG.

It proves no such thing. Men were never animals.

Author: Kbbt
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 11:40 am


Big deal.

Tell us how Darwin is linked to terror, without labels and restating what you already have. In other words, have you anything new, or what?

If you really don't have anything, why not just let it go then? Continuing this line of discussion is off topic for the thread. Want to hash out creation -vs- evolution? Start a thread for it and go to town. Doing that here, on this one devalues the forum.

-----
for petes sake can't you read? I answered you!

Apes, chimps, and monkeys ARE NOT animals, dumbshit!

And the topic is the connection between Darwin and terror, but it has been hijacked to religion and terror!

Nope.

Simply tell us how darwin is linked to terror. Please do not restate your prior information, bring something new to the table, or consider simply agreeing to disagree.

Remember that option? It's available to you right now you know.

Be aware that exercising this option means you really shouldn't bring this to the table as a settled matter elsewhere though. Having not met your burden on this, it's not a known truth or even a strong position to take, unless of course you want to bring something new to the table to change that.

As for the hijack, that's up to you too. The focus of this thread is Darwin and terror. Simply ignore the faith based stuff and either make your point or not.

Ball's in your court.

Thats what I said, there is a big connection between Darwin and terror. The problem is the atheists think that faith is connected to terror and that just is not fair nor is true. Can you name one religion that says its okay to kill?
Certainly the Koran doesn't permit murder.

There is NO connection to Darwin and terror. And it doesn't matter if any religion says it's okay to kill or not, because they do and they have.

You've no support then?

A discussion of faith being connected to terror is actually another matter completely.

Seems to me, you are essentially clinging to the idea of no faith being a problem because the idea of having faith being a problem really scares the tar outta you.

I'll take your non-answer to mean you've really got nothing to say on the matter of Darwin and terror.

So, point not taken. Time to move on.

Want to discuss faith and terror? We've got a create new conversation button for that, why not use it and see what happens?

I answered your question. I think the problem is you want an answer you agree with. I hate playing the non answer game when there is a hidden answer in mind!The connection is clear to me with Darwin and terror. What evolution does is it makes God unnecessary in the scheme of things and it justifies human pride because without God there is no accountability and therefore murder is okay. We only need to go back through history to the leaders who were atheists who were responsible for all of the mass murders in this country. Especially Stalin and Pol Pot.There is NO connection between faith in God and terror, not if God told us not to kill.

Wayne, don't you believe all life came from the same cell?

Adam was the first man God created and Eve came from Adam's rib.

If man didn't feel we had the permission to kill then the Native Americans of this country wouldn't have been decimated to virtual extinction. Does the phrase "Manifest Destiny" mean anything to you? North America was perceived to be given to us by God and it was our destiny to spread Republican Democracy throughout the continent, obliterating everything that stood in it's way, namely the Native Americans who were viewed as nothing more than savages by the white man, even though the Native Americans were arguably every bit as spiritual and gods-fearing, if not more so than the settlers ever were.

Author: Radioblogman
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 2:46 pm


Wayne, don't you believe all life came from the same cell?

Adam was the first man God created and Eve came from Adam's rib.

------
Important question. I don't believe that life came from the same cell. I think there may have been evolution but only in a limited sense. I have a hard time with evo if we combine all of the species into one family tree. I can accept evolution as long as it happens within a species.

One more point: I understand that evolution only happens with life and not with non-life. I have many friends who I know and respect who insist that all of creation, including the stars and the earth, are only a few thousand years old. I believe that the stars and the earth can be a billion years old or more without any conflict with the Genesis account of Creation. I hope that helps.

You can always quit playing. I know I wouldn't mind.

Again, we've evolution - creation stuff.

No link to Darwin and terror.

So, you agree this is so and are willing to move the thread in a new direction?

I talked about Darwin and terror. Would you mind telling me what kind of an answer you want me to give you?

Well, the stuff you talked about didn't support the idea that Darwin is linked to terror.

For what it's worth, I think some of your stuff is interesting and true --it's just not applicable to the idea that Darwin and terror are linked, which is the primary focus of this thread in particular.

What I'm asking for is:

-either contribute something that does speak directly to Darwin and terror

,or

-surrender that aspect of the discussion for now.

(you can always come back when you have more)

This is the agree to disagree part remember? It's perfectly ok for you to continue believing darwin and terror are linked. However, you've not shown that here to the group as a whole.

This means, you really shouldn't be pressing this point home, until such time as you have brought some additional information to bear on the matter.

This also implies that you may be wrong on this matter. Having not been able to press your point home to a degree where you have some credence, does open that door you know.

As a result, you also should realize that the participants on this thread are not really obligated to continue the discussion, nor are they obligated to act as if Darwin and terror are in fact linked.

What you want it sounds like is for me to post in a way that you may agree with. You need to realize that won't happen. We need to look at the history of the mass murderors that have been leaders and you will find they have been atheists. Did you know Hitler was influenced by Darwin, especially the survival of the fittest?
The whole point behind Darwins theory was that there would be no need for a creator.

Actually, I'm adhering to the rules of discussion and debate as closely as I'm able.

If you post stuff, no matter how strongly you may feel about it, that really can't be shown to connect these two ideas in a solid way, there will come a point where you must accept others not willing to continue to engage you in the matter.

You've engaged in a fallacy. It is faulty cause and effect. This renders your support essentially useless for pressing this point home. You need to either bring some additional support to the table, or exercise your options.

This is where we are right now.

So let's agree to disagree right? This is the option you've been asking for. Why not engage it now and be better for it?

You can always bring this point to the floor in the future, but continuing to post essentially the same stuff is not adding to the overall value of this forum.

That builds tension. Not good.

This one just ain't gonna fly.

'If you post stuff,...that really can't be shown to connect these two ideas in a solid way...'

"Connect these two ideas?" According to who's definition?

Seems like the left wants to be the one to define it. And because there are more liberals than conservatives here, guess who shouts louder?

Herb

Hey, I've presented the links to the elements I've used in this matter. --many, many times.

The general rules of engagement have been well defined for a very long time.

If you've got solid support for something, the number of others really doesn't matter. We've been here before. If you want to deal with definitions, it's always best to construct your POV with words mutually accepted by all.

Labels and generalizations are arbitrary, thus bring the whose definition into play. Best to avoid these and leverage the definitions we've collected over time.

Author: Herb
Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 8:31 pm


'If you post stuff,...that really can't be shown to connect these two ideas in a solid way...'

"Connect these two ideas?" According to who's definition?

Seems like the left wants to be the one to define it. And because there are more liberals than conservatives here, guess who shouts louder?

Herb

----

I think the leftists are so used to running the show in this forum and don't want any conservatives like us sharing our opinions.That may be why they have stooped to their swearing and insults.

Well you think it; Therefore it must be true.

Even though there are HUNDREDS of posts that prove otherwise.

I have yet to see one prove otherwise.

Riiiiiight.

How about if I show you one that doesn't have insults or swearing? THEN what?

That would be something!

That's off topic on this thread though.

Really, we are discussing darwin and terror, and the potential for a link between the two.

Like the flag burning bit, this serves only to dodge the real issue; namely, there is NO LINK.

No it isn't The topic has become the link between religion and terror. It has become an argument between whether or not Christianity is evil.

Ahem...getting back to the topic of this thread, the statement was made that the purpose of Darwin's theory was to get rid of the need for a creator. Can anyone prove this using Darwin's own works? At least according to the Wikipedia article on Darwin, he was a fairly "orthodox" believer while he did his original research while sailing on The Beagle.

There are people today who invoke the name of Darwin in a combative way, to strike a blow against those who advocate a literal interpretations of religious creation stories. I don't agree with this combative methodology, and I think that it misses the point of what good science is supposed to be about: true scientists hone their models and theories to explain evidence. They don't sit around saying, "Rah Rah Rah, Team Darwin!"

Darwin was studying for the ministry when he made his discovery and I don't think he was an atheist. But the theory has become a religion so to speak of the secularists. Darwin's point in his thesis, I think, was to react to people who thought that creation begun at 4004 bc. There are some Christians who still think that way.

Religious nuts attempt to demonize Darwin because Darwin is a threat to their beliefs. It's all an attempt to muddy the waters, because the less information you know, the better for them.

Yep.

And Wayne, the topic is Darwin and terror. THERE IS NO LINK.

Nobody is saying Christianity is evil. NOBODY.

There is a big link between Darwin and terror. You don't want there to be one. But Darwin's theory makes God unnecessary and without God there is no accountability and therefore murder is okay and so is terror.

Author: Reinstatepete
Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 11:31 pm


Religious nuts attempt to demonize Darwin because Darwin is a threat to their beliefs. It's all an attempt to muddy the waters, because the less information you know, the better for them.

------
The only threat Darwinism is is to science. It is a religion in itself. There is no threat to Christianity. It has gotten along just fine without him. Even now Darwin believes.

Science is now a religion?

When it comes to one religion vs another ... I say, Survival of the Fittest.

"When it comes to one religion vs another ... I say, Survival of the Fittest."

Which is why terror and wars are a result of religion...the struggle for power.

Which is why terror is the result of evil and not religion.

WW said>>>
Which is why terror is the result of evil and not religion.

You just keep thinkin' that.....

Thats the truth. Religion is neither good nor bad, Trix. Evil is in the hearts of men, not God. Faith doesn't cause terror. Unbelief does.

Terror is caused by people that BOMB the living crap out of a country and kill over 30,000 women and children.
If you don't believe that your insane....

Seems to me, faith encompasses the full spectrum of the unknown.

This means anyone who believes in god is exercising their right to faith. This also means that anyone who does not believe is also exercising their right to faith.

Taking a stand on something, not known to be true, is an act of faith. Continuing to take that stand represents conviction.

Let's say you've got it right. Unbelief does indeed cause terror. This means that having more things to not believe in contributes more to terror than not.

In this, having religion is simply another contributor to potential terror, the same as having no religion is. Either represents something that another person can choose to not believe right?

Therefore, terror is something within us, not something of religion, or lack of religion.

Which is exactly what I posted a long time ago. I posted 4 summaries about terrorists. The common element to the four was a person faced with having to deal with realities and or ideals they found intolerable. They chose to act.

In this choice, they possessed the elements of character that permit terror to rise within.

So it follows that a measure of tolerance among men is required for peace and harmony among them.

Sound familiar?

Author: Trixter
Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:13 pm


Terror is caused by people that BOMB the living crap out of a country and kill over 30,000 women and children.
If you don't believe that your insane....

----
Terror is cause by people. But you are aruging that God causes terror! Do you have any idea how insane that sounds? Evil causes terror, not faith.

So it follows that a measure of tolerance among men is required for peace and harmony among them.

Sound familiar?



---------------
----Yes, KBBT, I have heard that a million times, but what is "tolerance"? Is that a word that we want to throw around because it suits ones agenda? My question is can any Christian show tolerance? Or is that something only meant for non-believers? The drift is sure that way I think

Plus, there is a difference between " tolerance " and " acceptance."

Who wants to be " tolerated "?

I know it's splitting hairs, but it's been a thing for me.

But we can drop the lack of religion bit causing terror can't we?

You've posted enough, by your own words to, make this a reality.

Lack of religion does not cause terror. Lack of tolerance does.

Wayner..
GOD told DUHbya to bomb Iraq!!!!!

I think God told Bush to wipe out the evil in Iraq.

Author: Kbbt
Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 8:44 pm


But we can drop the lack of religion bit causing terror can't we?

You've posted enough, by your own words to, make this a reality.

Lack of religion does not cause terror. Lack of tolerance does.

---------
I am all for tolerance but we need to define what we mean here. Tolerance seems to be defined as an exclusively liberal trait, at least it comes across that way. What do you suggest we do to be more tolerant?

No suggestion.

It's not liberal. It's human --> we all need to deal with one another, period.

If thats all you mean than go for it!

Man, you are really kind of nuts!

For the record, I don't need your permission pal.

So, then the burden is not met for darwin = terror?

That was the point of this whole exchange.

Of course it isn't . Only when we agree on everything can it be met. Isn't that the point of the exchange? My blind agreement? Thats all you care about isn't it? I should have known. Dialogue wasn't what you were interested in at all was it?

WW said>>>
My blind agreement?

SEIG HILE!
SEIG HILE!

Yes, thats all you care about and I think you know it.