You guys wanted change. You're about to get it, but you might not like it. Let's see now, tax increases, the draft, what other suprises are we in for.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/19/AR2006111900376_ pf.html

I prefer tax increases to borrowing and paying the same money with interest later, Deane. I don't know when your party decided it was a great idea to keep spending and just borrow the damn money, but I think that's terribly irresponsible. Of course I'd prefer simply spending less on things like overblown Pentagon weapons programs instead of borrowing or raising taxes, but it's hard to reign in a free-spending president who thinks more money for the US military is the solution to every problem we face (that and more tax cuts for the wealthy).

Andrew

Then would you mind paying my tax increases too?

Yeah, your tax burden is so damned high living with your mom and your cat.

I'll trade you my property tax for what you have to pay on your annual pension.

Sheesh. Get over it.

Right-wingers want more defense spending but then whine when you want them to actually PAY for it now instead of borrowing it and letting the Grandkids pay for it (or just pay the interest). If I had grandchildren, I certainly wouldn't want to burden them with a crippling national debt - but I guess that doesn't make me pro-family enough for the Republicans or something...

Andrew

If you want the war, be prepared to cough up the dough. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.

We all will have to pay somehow and complaining won't stop that. Its a reality that things don't always go the way we want them to.

You should take your OWN advice.....

I'd say we start drafting pro-war congressmen's kids first. If that doesn't help end the war, then we'll start with everyone else.

This talk of re-instating the draft is going to kill support for democrats among young voters.

It gives them a perfect reason to switch to the Green Party.

Keep pushing the draft.

Herb

When it was YOUR neo-CON suckbags that have DEPLETED the armed services with this STUPID UNjust war?????
I think it's going to go down in history as the neo-CONer EXTREME REICHs fault for the draft if it happens.....

Why don't we put Saddam back in power. He is your hero you know.

There will be no draft, it causes far more problems than it helps.

It is much more difficult to train and motivate people that dont want to be there.

Plus if you have to have a draft, you will have to draft the same number of women as men, and there arent nearly that many positions that can be filled by females.

Yep. There won't be a draft. ( At least not for the current circumstances. If we were invaded by China or something, I would change my mind ). Call for it all you want and threaten it and argue about it - I am not worried ONE bit.

I will say though, when I was tyounger, and full of fear, I worried about it. I'm glad I do't anymore.

And as far as my son goes, well, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

I heard on the radio that Charlie Rangel has tried it twice and voted against it both times. I wonder how politically motivated the bill is.
He forgets that the draft didn't stop LBJ or Kennedy from sending troops to Vietnam.
I don't think a draft bill would be very popular on Capitol Hill even with the new majority.

ESPECIALLY with the new majority, is my guess. But that's just a guess.

The more that democrats consider a draft, the more terrified their base will become.

But guys, think about it. This could be a good thing for America: Lefties with guns.

Maybe then they'd give more support to the 2nd Amendment.

Herb

Yeah. I thought about it.

No.

And I say that with as little terror as a person can. So I don't know why I am supposed to be terrified. ( I mean, I could guess. But that's an odd thing to pin on Democrats - as if Democrats are more afraid of dying than Republicans or something. Am I just constantly missing your point Herb? I feel like I am looking for one all the time with your posts ).

Charlie Rangal has done this before. Anyone who knows anything about politics knows that he's done this before, and only to make a statement against troop increases during this war.

It's to make a statement against the rich people's children not fighting their war. And to prove a point about how the current system exploits young men in poor areas of the country.

"The more that democrats consider a draft, the more terrified their base will become."

as opposed to the GOP base who are ALREADY terrified of just about everything?

Naw.

The GOP base is already tan, rested and ready.

Wait 'til '08.

Herbert S. Zim

I think it's genius.

We are not gonna have a draft. None of the Democratic leadership will support it right now.

But it does underscore the real hard cost of this useless war and it's impact on both our security and need to sacrifice in general.

Hard to find a better way to highlight the mess that Iraq is.

"I think it's genius."

Great. Then keep pushing it.

We're agreed.

Herb

The point is, is that if anyone's kid could go to war, even the CEO or the Senator's kid, maybe, JUST MAYBE, people would be a bit more careful in their decision to go to war on a whim. But as long as the military is staffed with "disposable heros" in the views of the decision makers, they will not use the same consideration as if they were sending their own.

The draft sure didn't stop LBJ from sending troops to Vietnam. There is no guarentee that a draft won't prevent any President from going to war. If it did we would never have fought in world war 2

Uhhhh...ok.

I may as well point out that the draft didn't prevent peanut butter from being mass produced.

HEY! THIS IS FUN!

Neither did the draft stop beer from being beer!

They don't need a draft. Just do a push poll, and if you state your in favor of the war then have military police outside your house to take you to boot camp and to Iraq in eight weeks.

Then will see how many favor Bush-Cheney-Rumsfield's wars.

Wayner said>>>>
Why don't we put Saddam back in power. He is your hero you know.

Like Hitler and Pol Pot were yours???

Your hero is Saddam why don't you tell me if you think things would be better if he were in charge of Iraq. Hitler is dead in case you didn't know.

Sodomy is a dead case didn't you know....

You must think that Ill is better off running NK? Let's get rid of the people that can ACTUALLY hurt us old man! Ill must be your hero and you must think things are better off with him in power. How many has he had killed?
Stick that in your ignorant pipe and smoke it!!!!

Your hero is Saddam. lets put him back in power and let him kill some more innocent Iraquis.

Let's keep Ill in charge because that's what YOU CONers want..
FEAR! FEAR! FEAR!
Another boogieman!!!! First it was Commies now it's Terrorists and Sodomy...
Your pathetic!

Your right, we dont have to fear terrorists, just follow the liberal line, and give them everything they want, and then when thats not enough, just give them more. Maybe then they will stop trying to kill us.

They wouldnt, but thats what the libs think, heck if they had been in charge, we would have begged for forgivness after Pearl harbor.

NWokie your just as ignorant...

BLOW EVERYONE THAT DOESN'T AGREE WITH US OUT OF THE FUCKING WATER! JUST KILL EVERYONE THAT ISN'T CHRISTIAN OR BELEIVE LIKE US!!!!!
Wow that's the christian thing to do!
You neo-CONers are so fucking pathetic.....

Where did I say anything about killing everyone that isnt Christian?

I have no problem killing terrorists, or those that give support to terrorists.


And if a country allows terrorists to operate inside their country, they have to expect we will take actionj against the terroists.

Those libs want us to beg the evil dictators to not harm us anymore. That sure didn't work with Hitler!

" Those libs want us to beg the evil dictators to not harm us anymore."

Name one person that has said that.

How about when Clinton offered Ill a billion dollars for technology in return all Ill as asked was to please stop making weapons. That didn't work did it?

No. Tell me one person who SAID that. Not how you interpreted it. But who said - quote " I want to beg evil dictators to not harm us anymore."

Who SAID that?

" How about when Clinton offered Ill a billion dollars for technology in return all Ill as asked was to please stop making weapons."

Yeah, how ABOUT that?

I have never heard that before. Where did you get that information?

You admit that Clinton made a deal with North Korea in return for a broken promise?

No. And my lack of belief for that stems from the fact that you can't ever support anything you ever say.

Can you or can you not tell me where you got that?

If you can support your quote, then I'll listen and consider it. Or maybe I'll just do what you do and say " Well, we disagree. Even in the face of a fact, I will not change my mind."

That would be frustrating, wouldn't it?

Can you or can you not tell me where you got that?

Or is this the part where you change the subject? You are getting what you want; A clear reason for why I am asking a question of you. So let's see what you can even do with getting what you SAY you want.

can we disagree over the matter? I thought you knew about the deal that Clinton and Carter made with North Korea?

Wayne you are such an idiot. There was no billion dollar deal.

North Korea purchased the enrichment equipment from a foreign company of which Rumsfield was a board member.

Oh my a conservative screwed up.

You don't know anything about history do you? It was a deal that Clinton and Carter made up. Just like a desparate lib you blame everyone else for your problems. Its definately not okay to disagree with you is it?

Was the deal made when Carter was president? Then was the deal renewed over a 12 year period when your guys were in charge?

It's okay to disagree, but when you don't know what your writing about then you can't disagree with what I write as you are making statements that are just made up.

So show the facts or get off this post.

So its really not okay to disagree? Why do you insist on facts if they don't matter unless you agree with them. There was a deal with North Korea when Bill Clinton was president but Carter actually did the negotiating. All Ill gave them was a promise that he wouldn't build his nukes. My point in bringing that up is that appeasment doesn't work and it never has worked.

Where did you get that info Wayne?

we tried appeasment with Hitler with Chamberlain and look what we got. We negotiate through strength. Thats what Reagan did and that works

So ok - he is just talking out of his ass.

Yes wayne, After all the attempts to talk to you in a gentlemanly manner, they have failed. All we are left with is that you are a liar.

You are called on your bullshit lies accordingly.

The end.

You don't want to talk at all like any gentleman All you care about is pushing agreement and your profanity.

Yeah. That and a rational debate.

But you don't know what those words mean.

Ew... Ew!! Mr. Kotter, Mr. Kotter, Pick Me! ...

A rational debate is when one person asks a question of the other parties stand on an issue and he responds to it. Then it is that persons turn to ask a question and get an answer. The winner is usually the one with the better answers!

How'd I do Mr. Kotter?

er, up your nose with a rubber hose?

Thump, thump...

Anything that helps get the bible legislated is good, anything that doesn't is bad. That's it. No debate, end of story.

The only reason for engaging is a shot at getting others to agree and improve their numbers. It's a one way street people.

They've got exactly zero to lose in this. Herb said it best:

Nothing else matters but fighting terror and getting rightie court appointments.

That's the whole story right there. If we make them feel bad, they can look to god and go to their hate church of choice and feel really good about it. If we show them facts and reason, they can just deny it and again look to god. If we ignore them, they can look to god and just keep making noise.

Remember, nothing to lose by trying to get the word out.

There is much hate from the godless too so don't you think Christians only can hate. Thats a bit outrageous.

thump thump thump . . .

You have a headache?

Yes. We do. And it's THIS big.

Do you get your material from Bazooka Joe wrappers?

No, maybe if you didn't eat so much of their bubblegum your head wouldn't hurt so bad.

Maybe my head would not hurt so bad if you two were not in here preaching the gospel 24 seven.

You are just like Herb. A thief, taking the value built here by those contributing, and using it to preach the gospel day in and day out.

Wayner won't rest until everyone thinks HIS way!

SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE!
SEIG HILE!!

Author: Missing_kskd
Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 11:44 am


Maybe my head would not hurt so bad if you two were not in here preaching the gospel 24 seven.

You are just like Herb. A thief, taking the value built here by those contributing, and using it to preach the gospel day in and day out.

-----
Maybe if you would only believe it wouldn't hurt so bad, MK.

Maybe if you didn't PUSH your religion down everyone's throat's they wouldn't want you to shut up....

Missing_KSKD no longer posts here Wayne.

WTF!
That's BULLSHIT!
Wayner and Herb pushed him away???
That's Fin BULLSHIT!
Thanks loads guys!
U SUCK!

Author: Trixter
Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 1:42 pm


Maybe if you didn't PUSH your religion down everyone's throat's they wouldn't want you to shut up....

-------
Maybe you shouldn't push your gay marriage down our throats too.

Make you a deal Wayne; We won't talk about gay marriage and you don't talk about God.

Deal?

I won't. But you need to not bring him up too.

Fine.

Done.

Let's see how long you can go wihtout breaking your end of the deal.

Only if someone else says something thats outrageously false will I mention my faith. But I can't keep silent like you probably want me to when that happens.

35 minutes.

thump thump thump . . .

Wayne said - "Only if someone else says something thats outrageously false will I mention my faith. But I can't keep silent like you probably want me to when that happens."

Why not?

You want people to trample over me and not be able to defend myself? I didn't think you were that mean CJ.

thump thump thump . . .

WW ignorantly said>>>
You want people to trample over me and not be able to defend myself? I didn't think you were that mean.

I guess that's what you would like the Liberals to do huh?

You need a dose of that yourself. Maybe you might learn to respect people who don't agree with you.

"You need a dose of that yourself. Maybe you might learn to respect people who don't agree with you."

Practice what you preach, because you show NOBODY in here any respect except Herb.

Nobody is doing that here except you and the rest of the secular left. Respect and agreement are one and the same thing to you.

thump thump thump, poop poop poop.

"Nobody is doing that here except you and the rest of the secular left."

1. As previously stated, I am not "secular". I DO believe. I just have the mental capacity of self-thought, unlike yourself apparently.

2) As previously stated, I am not "to the left". To the left of YOU maybe, but FARRR from being "to the left".

pooping sounds good. BRB.

We need a scale of some kind to define what we mean by left and right.

poop poop poop . . .

Sorry, we can't draft Lars for two reasons:

one a substandard IQ, according to files from Tillamook High School.

two, the Army does not accept people with flat feet or flat heads.

He is too old for the draft isn't he?

Before considering a draft, you have to first decide on its purpose.

Is it a political point, just to add some randomness?

Is it to increass military effectivness?

Is it to increase the size of the military?

Your not going to increase the effectivness with a draft, our military is amazingly effective right now.

You can increase the size, but at what cost? besides personnnel, there is all of the equipment and overhead costs, plus training and discipline costs.

The talk of a draft is purely political at this point. But I have to say, if a draft did exist and ANYBODY'S kid could get drafted, it just might give people a little bit of perspective on war that is currently lacking.

I would go one step further and levy a war tax. We've spent something like $350 billion so far (all of it stacked on the debt, too!) My calculator doesn't go that high, but with a population of 300 million, my manual number comes to $1166 per person, or $4664 for a family of four. If people had to write a check for that, I'm sure it would change a few opinions as well.

We just don't pay enough taxes do we Pete?

Wayne, wars cost money, and that money comes from the taxpayers. Do you think money grows on trees? Do you think that when we wage war, the Fed just prints up more dollar bills to pay for it? When the US borrows money from other nations to pay for war, do you think we never have to pay it back with interest? Please tell me how you think the Iraq war gets paid for, and if you had to write a check today for $1166, would you still support it?

Why is your only solution for conflict higher taxes? Thats the point I am making. Don't we pay high enough of a property tax already? I am not rich like you.

This is how IGNORANT Wayner is....
Wayner the complainer said>>>>
Maybe you shouldn't push your gay marriage down our throats too.

THIS IS THE LAST TIME I RESPOND TO YOUR STUPID ASS STATEMENTS.
You do not either know how to read or can't retain what you do.
I have NEVER and I repeat NEVER said that I'm for GAY marriage! EVER! EVER! EVER!
It's people like you that lost the November elections for Republicans. Thank God above that it was the neo-CONers like YOU that lost!
The ULTRA-REICH wing of the Republican party that you stand for is what is putting a bad taste in EVERYONE'S mouth! If we do not think as YOU then we are against you?
Because I do NOT subscribe to YOUR ULTRA-REICH Nazi thinking I can't be a Republican? Because I don't follow God's word just as you do I'm a Liberal and want Gay marriage?
You biggoted TAX-PAYER pension living old fart!
I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt and not listen to the other that YOUR shitting all over this message board along with Herb but I have to now because of YOUR ignorance.....
Goodbye Wayner.....

Good riddance Trix. I won't miss your insults one bit. You can't convert someone by swearing and insulting.

I'm not leaving...
Just not talking to your stupid ass anymore...

Wayne, which is it? Higher taxes or no war?

ALL WAR ALL THE TIME!
Isn't that what Jesus would have wanted??
DOWN with higher taxes!
Jesus wants WAR!

Jesus wants us to trust in him.

Thanks God!

POOP!

Trixter>> Goodbye Wayner.....
I'm not leaving...
Just not talking to your stupid ass anymore...

My name is Randy and I'm addicted to PDX Radio dot com.

Trix, we're all here to help you.

Th first step is to admit you are powerless to your addiction.

The second step is to believe that a Power greater than ourselves can restore us to sanity

Etc., etc...

Amen,Randy

(eyes rolling skyward) ;-)