http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15719999/

The Baptist State Convention of North Carolina voted Tuesday to cut ties with congregations that affirm or approve of homosexuality, formally adopting a rigid anti-gay policy that allows the group to investigate whether member churches are gay-friendly.

"Even though we believe that homosexuality is wrong, we still love and engage those in this lifestyle."

-In other words, we think you're a piece of shit and will treat you like one, but will still take your money and/or vote.

That's hilarious!
The ripples from this recent election continue to spread outward. (grabs another bag 'o popcorn to watch the fireworks!)

Seems the hardest of the hardcore are just gonna dig in and get ready for the big fight. It must be completely sad to have nothing else to live for. So judgemental all the time.

How exactly do they justify that?

Gotta hand it to the movers and shakers behind this stuff though. Not only can they cultivate the hate into something that serves them, they do it and get paid for it as well!

PT Barnum would be proud indeed!

I was reading in the trib today about how downtown churches are suffering from declining congregation tallies -- except for the unitarian church -- seems now they've 3.34 times the number of members of the nearby catholic church. The difference? one church is bigot-based and the other is not.

Saw that one yesterday.

It was an interesting article. Go First Unitarian!

Not only is the Catholic church bigoted, they support child molestors within their organization.

I used to go to a church that was next door to the Unitarians and they have some strange beliefs.

Everyone thinks they are right! That is what is WRONG with organized Religion in the US. The Mormons think they are right! The Jehovah's Witnesses think they are right! Catholics think they are the way!
There is no one true Religion!!! Everyone twists it the way they want it!
Believe in God? GOOD! God doesn't care where you BELIEVE in him! He is the ALMIGHTY he knows what your feeling and thinking..... WANNA BELIEVE??? DO IT!
Just DON'T push your beliefs on EVERYONE!
Force doesn't work it ONLY backfires!

. I think you and the rest of the pro gay crowd are the only ones that are forcing anything.

If the Baptists really believe what they preach (the existence of a deity with infinite powers, prayer, faith making people better human beings, etc.), shouldn't they focus on praying for the people trapped in this "sinful lifestyle?" It seems that on this issue, they put the church politics first (i.e. cutting ties with churches that don't follow the "party line"), and that says a lot about the Baptists as an organization. I mean, if you have this all-powerful deity, can't He help people to overcome urges that go against the church's teachings??? Why doesn't the same controversy exist over Baptists who are alocholics or chain smokers?

I used to be a Baptist and my complaint about them was that they seemed too often hung up in politics. I am now in an independent Bible believing church which stresses missions and service. One of the first things I did with the church was delivering food to the poor. I am involved in setting up chairs and things as well as greeting for my singles class. I think thats a much better way of sharing the love of God than preaching.

If you were that killer, you wouldn't need go to the church sponsored singles night. Sounds pretty pathetic to me, actually.

WW ignorantly said>>>
I think you and the rest of the pro gay crowd are the only ones that are forcing anything.

I guess YOU and the rest of the I HATE HUMAN'S UNLESS THEY ARE LIKE ME CROWD are ONLY ones FORCING anything.
WW you really are a bigot....
Have fun with that.... IN HELL!

"I used to go to a church that was next door to the Unitarians and they have some strange beliefs."

Oh, wow, there you have it! Another pithy fact-filled treatise on yet another religion. Good research there, Wayne, I'm now fully convinced that those Ungodly Unitarians are the devil's spawn and up to no good!

I'm cancelling magazines and newspapers right and left, because I now have Info-Wayne!

He's lived next door to a gay person!

He spoke to a black woman once!

The music director at his old church had an affair, divorced, and was still removed from that church, but he was a nice guy!

He sets up chairs at the over-55 singles group!
He gets to ogle the babes first, right as they come in!

What a guy!

Wayner is a stand up guy!

WOW!

And he lives on a pension that I payed for!

LOL at mrs. m.

Author: Trixter
Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 11:24 pm


WW ignorantly said>>>
I think you and the rest of the pro gay crowd are the only ones that are forcing anything.

I guess YOU and the rest of the I HATE HUMAN'S UNLESS THEY ARE LIKE ME CROWD are ONLY ones FORCING anything.
WW you really are a bigot....
Have fun with that.... IN HELL!

I am not planing on it, I am planning on spending my eternity with Jesus. You love to fight don't you, Trix? Admit it thats why you want gay marriage isn't it?

Poor Jesus.

Did anyone watch Nova on PBS the other night about the "Hand Walkers"? It explains a lot.

"I used to go to a church that was next door to the Unitarians and they have some strange beliefs."

Wayne, I was once a penecostal Baptist, so I know about strange beliefs, but we all share one thing:

A BELIEF IN GOD!

Wayne, accept the Unitarians for their belief in God.

Accept all churches and faiths that believe in God and don't attack them for how they treat gays.

You personally can hate gays, but don't criticize us that believe God supports them, please.

hmmm... isn't that pretty compelling evidence that any one church in particular doesn't have a lock on the truth?

Seems to me, we've got somebody here Church shopping. You know, trying to find the best fit? Having found it, now it's just gotta be the TRUTH!

Good on the Unitarians. They know what equality really is all about.

My sister in law attends a Unitarian Universalist church (affectionately known as the UU church). I like much of what the UU church presents as far as accepting people from different faiths or no faith at all. Church needs to be a welcoming place for a diverse community to engage.

But they aren't very Christian. When I went to the church next door I encountered some universalist and they don't think much of evangel Chistians but well of everyone else.
They may be good people but our beliefs are quite different.

Wayne: Who are you to judge the Christianity of anyone?

You must really be like a Taliban supporter as you only believe one religion is the correct religion.

This country was founded on freedom of religion, so if you are a true American you will accept all who believe in God.

NOTE TO SELF:

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!

IGNORE THE TROLL!



MUST...CONTOL...FIST...OF...DEATH!!!!

Author: Radioblogman
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 5:02 pm


Wayne: Who are you to judge the Christianity of anyone?

You must really be like a Taliban supporter as you only believe one religion is the correct religion.

This country was founded on freedom of religion, so if you are a true American you will accept all who believe in God.

I don't believe Universalists are born again and I don't think they would think they are that way either. Not every church is Christian.

I was born right the first time.

"I don't believe Universalists are born again and I don't think they would think they are that way either. Not every church is Christian."

"I was born right the first time."

ZING!!!!

Oh and Wayne, who the hell do you think you are to determine who is "born again" and who isn't? So what you are saying is that if you aren't an evangelic Christian, you aren't Christian?

People worship their God in their way. It's truly a pity that you cannot accept that.

Why don't you go do something constructive ... like go build sand castles on the freeway?

They aren't born again. I don't think they would admit that they are. You need to study a religion before you talk about it. Baptists have nothing in common with Universalists. You are the one thats saying the latter are better. In God's eyes we are all the same.

Oh, so we are equal then?

"But they aren't very Christian. When I went to the church next door I encountered some universalist and they don't think much of evangel Chistians but well of everyone else.
They may be good people but our beliefs are quite different."

"In God's eyes we are all the same."

Which is it? Both quotes are you.

Are they equal or are they not?

Shit or get off the pot.

Exactly!

I'll wait for you to seek help sorting this one out. Quick, give the hotline a call before you get in too deep! I'm sure they have a talking point or two for you.

Oh, be sure and let them know you really, Really, REALLY are NOT GAY. It's just that you need a little help with some friends struggling with the whole GAY thing. You know how it is.

Be sure and get back to us on that equality thing. Can't wait to hear this one!

Now I get the picture. The only reason you like the Universalists are because they welcome gays. Thats the only barometer for "truth" that you have left isn't it? Why don't you look at any Eastern religion and tell me whether or not they welcome gays. I can tell you some religions hate gays a lot more than Baptists do. And we can forgive them but the others can't.

"In God's eyes we are all the same."

Which is it? Both quotes are you.

Are they equal or are they not?
\\\
Brian I will say it again: GAYS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO MARRY! Show me in the constitution where marriage is a right for anyone. I wonder if you really are for equal rights if you don't think men and pets should marry as well as making polygamy legal. I bet you are only for equality for gays. Not me.

Are we not equal in God's eyes WW??? He treats some of us better than others? Homosexual men and women burn in HELL with NO chance of ever reaching Heaven???

Why not?

Well the rights extended to people are not extended to animals, so the whole marriage to pets thing is out. Non starter.

As for multiple people being married, that's pretty easy. Just make a marriage two people. It's two people now, so that's really a non starter too.

That leaves us with some people being different than other people.

We are equal in gods eyes right? So what makes gay people different than other people?

You said we are all born sinners right? Even if being gay is a sin in your eyes, sin is sin. You are no different than a gay person in this regard because we all are sinners.

Gay people can be saved too. You have said Jesus takes all who accept him. What's the difference between one sinner accepting him and another? All of us continue to sin as well. Are you telling me that straight people don't sin after having been saved? Are we all going to hell or not?

Isn't that the whole Jesus died for our sins bit? We ask for forgiveness then we are good to go to heaven.

We are equal according to your own words Wayne. Willing to back that up and tell us how a gay person is different from a straight person?

Is there something we are all missing here, or is the issue really all about you having a personal problem with gayness in general?

Jesus died for our sins thats true. But he hates sin too. There is a big problem with gays as far as God is concerned. And I believe they are one and the same. Why do you think Sodom and Gamorah were destroyed? It was because of their homosexuality! And don't feed me that nonsense about caring for the poor because Jude verse 7 says otherwise. Why are you pushing your gay agenda down my throat? You are doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of doing. we are arguing in circles here. I am getting tired of this topic, is anybody else? can we talk about the original subject of this thread? Pretty please? People hate a lot more than Baptists do.

whores are not all gay......

"Why are you pushing your gay agenda down my throat?"


Actually, we all wish it was a big penis! Then maybe you'd STFU!

How can Jesus actually hate anything we do if he loves us unconditionally?

There is no room for hate where God and Jesus are concerned. These are matters of men, not gods.

Well the problem I have with this topic is that you have not been consistant in your expression of your beliefs here. You are using your religion as a crutch for your own issues with gay people. It's not all circles. I've watched each time it's gone around and another little hole appears each time.

If your beliefs are the truth, how come there are so many inconsistancies? Why does it depend on hate to make sense? A real Baptist shouldn't be hating anyone for any reason.

You are admitting you go to a hate church then? One that believes in a hateful God?

That's fucked up.

Remember way back when I said I hoped you feel bad? I really meant that. Your bigotry harms others. You support hate and advocate for others to share it! All in all, that's pretty bad Wayne.

So, it appears that the topic of this thread has shifted to the question of "what is Christianity and who is a Christian?" I hate to have to point out the obvious, but this is a debate that has been raging for about the past 500 YEARS! It will not be solved on this board. 500 years is significant because the Protestant Reformation happened about that long ago. Before that, the Catholic church did a better job of suppressing dissenters (sometimes by torture and execution) so that they couldn't go out and start rogue churches with different ideas about what Christianity means.

Today, when people can't reconcile their differences on religious ideas, they just break off and start new churches. Consider, for instance, Southern Baptists vs. Baptists, The Presbyterian Church USA vs. The Presbyterian Church in America, The Holiness Church vs. The United Pentecostal Church vs. The Pentecostal Church of God. This genie is not going back in the bottle, Wayne. These heathens, with their "non-evangelical" ideas are not going away.

You are so right. People have fought over which denomination is the best for centuries. What matters is how closely they follow the Bible.
Its unfortunate that there has been a bit of intolarance between Baptists and Catholics. I am finding out that we care about many of the same issues. The differences we have are not as important as I thought they were. I am not advocating ecumenicality here but we can at least learn and appreciate each other a bit more.

WW said>>>>
What matters is how closely they follow the Bible.

Which Bible???

"Which Bible???"

Is it the one that was written by, and to this day is interpreted by, MAN?

**OR**

Is it the one that was written by, and to this day is interpreted by, MAN???

The Bible may be the "word of God" but guess what, MAN wrote it. MAN has an evil way of twisting stuff around.

Amen, Brianl!

Organized religion as a whole sucks, and this board is proof positive.

Its not organized religion thats at fault here. The church is only as good as the people who belong to it. If we are going to blame anybody we have to blame the people and not religion!

Author: Trixter
Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:38 am


WW said>>>>
What matters is how closely they follow the Bible.

Which Bible???

Which Bible? Talk about ignorant. There is only one.

Organized religion as whole sucks, because it organizes all the same nut jobs into one group so they can further their agenda of hate.

It's very hard to disagree here.

So many contradictions I can't even begin to sort them out. Essentially they will listen to whoever says what they need to hear.

Wayne said - " Which Bible? Talk about ignorant. There is only one."

Hey. Highlander. YOU may use only one, but there are others that use a different one. There is NOT only one.

And you saying that there is makes YOU ignorant. But then again, you'll ignore this post and change the subject just like you always do. And then you'll glom onto the fact that I predicted it and then you'll say " I suggest that it's YOU that is changing the subject." And you'll start your circle-talk again - all the while never admitting that there are other Bibles.

There is only one Bible and its ignorant of you to say there is another. There are other books like the Koran but I have seen it, have you? It is not hardly a Bible. Organized religion is only as good as the people who make it. That is not in any way evil on its own. You can't call something evil because you don't agree with it. Truth was not meant to suit your own agenda. God is bigger than we are.

Well there is the kiddie version, king james version, modern version, for starters...

Then we have the older hebrew texts, and all of those translations.

Hmmm.. Lots of bibles.

The question of which denomination follows the Bible most closely is actually one that is so complex that it is a subject for trained religious scholars. As I'm sure that all of us on this board are aware, there are various translations of the Bible (King James, New International Version, etc.) But, what a lot of people may not know is that over the centuries, there have been various church conferences that worked to resolve doctrinal matters and in the process altered the content of the Bible. (Here is an article that lists and summarizes the major conferences in the history of Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_councils)

I am not a trained religious scholar, and as such, I cannot answer the question of which denomination follows the Bible most closely (and the question of what comprises the "true" Bible). I do not think that most of the Evangelical Christians have the academic background to seriously tackle these questions, either.

Wayne, if I could prove to you that there are different bibles, what would you do?

Suffice it to say, the likelyhood of the Bible in Waynes hand being authoritative is pretty low.

The Bible is my authority when it comes to God dealing with man. There is only one Bible. I know there are other religions and I have studied them. But they don't have a Bible. At least their "authority" is different than mine. its not the same.

To me the Bible is a piece of literature written long after Jesus left us. It may be a lot of fiction, as it was written by men and not God.

I trust my relationship with God more than I do that book. He has been there when I needed him, so I know he exists and I do not need a book to tell me so.

I am not a trained religious scholar, and as such, I cannot answer the question of which denomination follows the Bible most closely (and the question of what comprises the "true" Bible). I do not think that most of the Evangelical Christians have the academic background to seriously tackle these questions, either.

I think you have a valid argument. I would go a step further and say that many Christians probably haven't read the Bible.
BTW ignore the trolling. Those people who trash don't speak for God.

Wayne, if I could prove to you that there are different bibles, what would you do?

There is only one Bible, CJ. Are you saying that all religions are the same? Thats certainly not true. There are many different religions with different books and different views of God. But its denial to say there is more than one Bible.

Wayne, if I could prove to you that there are different bibles, what would you do?

There is only one Bible, CJ. Are you saying that all religions are the same? Thats certainly not true. There are many different religions with different books and different views of God. But its denial to say there is more than one Bible.

Wayne:

Answer the question, son. Maybe CJ is going somewhere with this.

There are many different versions of the bible due to its popularity. It's been done in many different languages and styles. One of my favorite versions is "The Message" by Eugene Peterson. None of that King James stuff here. Down to earth and in some cases simplified.

However my good old red Revised Standard Version, the doggy eared bible, is still my old faithful. It was the first bible given to me when I entered 6th grade. Needs a new cover desperately.

Thats good. I was raised in the King James version but didn't understand much of it. I now use the New International Version along with Living Letters. I have a website in which you can paste scriptures from easily.

Author: Brianl
Friday, November 17, 2006 - 9:01 pm


Wayne:

Answer the question, son. Maybe CJ is going somewhere with this.

-------
I did, but it wasn't the answer he liked apparently. Why are people above saying "I disagree" on this forum?

No. You did not answer the question. I'm asking you; If I could prove to YOU, by any criteria you deemed acceptable, that there was more than one bible, what would you do with that knowledge?

Don't tell me about what you think the bible YOU believe in stands for. Listen;

Wayne, if I could prove to you that there are different bibles, what would you do?

If I could prove to YOU, by any criteria you deemed acceptable, that there was more than one bible, what would you do with that knowledge? Would you just quote your momma and say that facts just bother you? ( It wouldn't be the 6th time you've said that. Is THAT what you are trying to say?; Nothing can change my mind! No matter how true they are!? )

Or would you actually take hold of facts and deal with them?

I am going to come to your house and ask you if you don't answer it here.

You choose.

Quote my question in your reply and let's see if you have the ability to answer a simple question.

I'm gonna chime in here, if this annoys you sorry.


It's not cool to be leveraging someones life in this way. Some of us here have met on our own terms and it's a great thing to put faces to names here.

This thread direction is heading into not so cool territory, IMHO.

One of the things that make this forum what it is, is the ability to get real with the discussion. Sometimes this hurts, sometimes it's powerful, sometimes it's funny, etc... The strong emotions are all part of the fun!

If there are ties to ones's home and life, it needs to be on ones own terms. Without this, people can become inhibited when they would not otherwise be. That's just not ok.

Consider the legal ramifications of what just has been posted here. It's nearly a crime.

We all slip, no biggie. Just think about it.

We all do fall thats sure true. I think you made some good points there.

CJ I think you need to rephrase your question because I am not sure what your point is in asking the question. Obviously there is a point somewhere. I will keep saying there is only one Bible although other religions have their books, they're not Bibles. I told you I have seen the Koran and it has very little to do with the Bible.

Wayne, which bible do you use? Which version?

> Wayne, which bible do you use? Which version?

Wayne already answered this question (which I why I dropped out of this discussion). Scroll up to his post dated Friday, November 17, 2006 - 10:21 pm.

Sorry about the threat-sounding thing. I will not be coming to Waynes house for anything. That was a mistake to say it. So I'm sorry. It came out of anger and frustration and was wholly uncalled for. It was the definition of an empty threat. It was mean and bullying and all things bad. And what makes it even worse is that I lied. So yes, I deserve to be called out for that. It was an asshole move and completely out of character for me. I'm ashamed to read it. I would edit it so I wouldn't have to look at it anymore. But we all know I did it - so I'll take my lumps.

I'm REALLY sorry about that.

I'm also sorry for not seeing that, yes, Wayne did, in fact already tell me what version of the bible he uses. That was doing something that I accuse Wayne of doing all the time. It was hypocritical and weak - totally takes away from my point.

So let's get back for a moment;

OK, Wayne. In your version of the bible, there are books. Each of them named. Here is my question;

What do you think about people who have a bible, yes - a bible - that have some different books than your bible? What do you think happens to them if they read or follow them?

Don't try and answer what you think my point is getting at - let's just go one step at a time. If someone uses a bible that contains all of your books, but theirs have a few more. What do you say about those people and their faith? Will they still get into Heaven? Are they being deceived to the point that their salvation is in question?

What happens to them - in your opinion?

Author: Chickenjuggler
Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 1:55 pm


Sorry about the threat-sounding thing. I will not be coming to Waynes house for anything. That was a mistake to say it. So I'm sorry. It came out of anger and frustration and was wholly uncalled for. It was the definition of an empty threat. It was mean and bullying and all things bad. And what makes it even worse is that I lied. So yes, I deserve to be called out for that. It was an asshole move and completely out of character for me. I'm ashamed to read it. I would edit it so I wouldn't have to look at it anymore. But we all know I did it - so I'll take my lumps.

I'm REALLY sorry about that.

you are forgiven. I didn't know why you were angry.

I'm also sorry for not seeing that, yes, Wayne did, in fact already tell me what version of the bible he uses. That was doing something that I accuse Wayne of doing all the time. It was hypocritical and weak - totally takes away from my point.

So let's get back for a moment;

OK, Wayne. In your version of the bible, there are books. Each of them named. Here is my question;

What do you think about people who have a bible, yes - a bible - that have some different books than your bible? What do you think happens to them if they read or follow them?

let me answer that this way. It all depends on what one does with the Bible. The book can't save anybody and I am sorry if I gave that impression. What matters is what is in your heart. The Bible is more than a book to me. It is supposed to change ones life and thats probably the reason some people don't think much of it. They don't want any change. I don't think change is necessairly a bad thing. What the Bible is supposed to do is communicate God's truth to men.

Don't try and answer what you think my point is getting at - let's just go one step at a time. If someone uses a bible that contains all of your books, but theirs have a few more. What do you say about those people and their faith? Will they still get into Heaven? Are they being deceived to the point that their salvation is in question?

Thats really between them and God. I don't want to condemn anybody to Hell. Thats for Him to decide not me. The best way that we can please God is with our faith. I believe that God won't hold us responsible for what we don't know but what we do with what we do know. I believe that God desires everyone to be saved. What prevents that from happening is our own free will. What God won't do is force himself on anyone who wants nothing to do with him.


What happens to them - in your opinion?


again thats up to God. I hope they will find peace through their faith in him but a person's eternal destiny is up to him and not me.I hope I did better this time.

What prevents that from happening is our own free will...

Ok, so why try and legislate into the law, those things you believe to be God's will?

You also believe he will forgive ignorance right?

Since we don't have his word in the matter, how then can any one of us claim any position of authority on that basis?

We are all ignorant in these things. That's why we call it matters of faith and not matters of truth.

CJ- Are you talking about the Apocrypha?

I was wondering that too.

MK-I think you have learned something very important here. God is very forgiving of all kinds of sin whether or not its verbal or deed or even ignorance. What I base what I know about God is what the Bible says. There is a danger of going by our feelings because you know that our feelings can deceive us.

I'm not talking about anything in particular - I'm not even saying that I COULD prove ther are different bibles. What I'm getting at is if I could, what would anyone do with that knowledge?

But since you brought up the Apocrypha, maybe someone can explain that to me. I think I used to know it better - but now I just don't. So yeah, let's use the Apocrypha. That is the Catholic bible, no? That contains books that have been deemed, you know, less than worthy. Some of those reasons are obvious. Some are less so. But I think they are still part of the Catholic bible, aren't they? Maybe they are not.

This whole thing got started for me when Wayne stated that there is only one bible and anyone who suggested differently is ignorant. So I am asking for a few definitions.

Of course there is only one Bible. Of course other religions have their own books. but thats not the same thing. I suspect that maybe your purpose here is to be ecumenical. The problem is that you risk doctrinal error if you do that. Its true that good fences make good neighbors. I suggest that the conflict between the religions comes when we combine them all. Its better that they are kept separate.

From Wikipedia:

Apocrypha meaning "those having been hidden away" are texts of uncertain authenticity or writings where the authorship is questioned.

In Judeo-Christian theology, the term apocrypha refers to any collection of scriptural texts that falls outside the canon. Given that different denominations have different ideas about what constitutes valid scripture, there are several different versions of the apocrypha.

During sixteenth-century controversies over the biblical canon the word "apocrypha" acquired a negative connotation, and it has become a synonym for "spurious" or "false". This usage usually involves fictitious or legendary accounts that are plausible enough to commonly be considered as truth. For example, the Parson Weems account of George Washington and the cherry tree is considered apocryphal.

My wife and I have read some of the Apocrypha and it's pretty interesting. I would certainly turn to some biblical scholars and theologians for more indepth study. Even studying how the books in the Bible were selected is an intriguing process.

I have always been one who has appreciated my ecumenical heritage as far as growing up in the church. Being a preachers kid has struggles of its own, but my dad always made others whom had no faith or had come from different traditions, welcomed anytime they walked through our church doors. He never preached "believe our way or else!!!" He was far more inclusive which I believe Jesus is.

Amen, brother!