Remember just a few short months ago, back in mid-2005, when those arrogant Republican SOBs in the Senate were talking about using what Trent Lott called the "Nuclear Option" to prevent Democrats from filibustering judicial nominees??? Only John McCain was prescient enough to realize that the Republicans wouldn't be in the majority forever:

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050415-105858-6978r.htm

I think the very first vote the new Democratic Senate should take in January should be on setting aside the rule for filibustering for judicial nominees, exactly like Bill Frist and Dick Cheney wanted to do, then have ALL Democrats vote against it, just to prove a point.

Andrew

mcain: "I say to my conservative friends, someday there will be a liberal Democrat president and a liberal Democrat Congress. Why? Because history shows it goes back and forth. I don't know if it's a hundred years from now, but it will happen."

Apparently McCain was off by 99 years!

Again, McCain: "And do we want a bunch of liberal judges approved by the Senate of the United States with 51 votes if the Democrats are in the majority?"

Wow, he's SPOT-ON with this one!

More: "He will have no presidential hopes if he pursues this course," said Manuel Miranda, a former Frist staffer who now chairs the National Coalition to End Judicial Filibusters. "This very well may be the first primary campaign between Bill Frist and John McCain."

Yep, and it looks like McCain is the winner here. Frist stumbled a bit by trying to make a long-distance medical diagnosis that turned out to be 100% wrong and later let his medical license lapse.

As I said in this forum many times, McCain has my respect.

"Yep, and it looks like McCain is the winner here. Frist stumbled a bit by trying to make a long-distance medical diagnosis that turned out to be 100% wrong and later let his medical license lapse.

As I said in this forum many times, McCain has my respect."

From the campaign finance reform legislation he started and rammed through, to his views and thoughts on abolishing torture, to his criticism of the Bush administration and other brothers and sisters in the GOP on the handling and reasoning of the mess in Iraq ... John McCain has proven time and again that he uses reason and logic and doesn't just toe the party line and drink the GOP Kool-Aid.

I know he is up there in age, and I don't know if he will make a run for it in 2008, but I would vote for John McCain in a second. I really think that we wouldn't be in near the mess we are, domestically or internationally, had we elected him in 2000.

We sure as heck wouldn't be in Iraq right now!

McCain just announced that he is forming the exploratory committee for 2008 as everyone expected, so I imagine he will run.

I had a lot more respect for McCain in 2000 than I have now. While he has taken principled stands on many issues, he has also sucked up to people on the right side of his party (e.g. Bush) who formerly used the sleaziest campaign tactics against him. I also don't like the way he's been sucking up to the Religious Right. McCain has gone more "mainstream" now than the famous "Straight Talk Express" of 2000. We'll have to see if he still has the same rabid following the Maverick had in 2000.

Andrew

I wouldn't consider voting for McCain at all. But I would have taken McCain any day over Bush, that's for sure.

My vote is for Mrs. Merkin.....Merkin for President!!!!

First Presidental Act.....All secret service agents drive Jet Black Pacers with dark tint windows and Black Levi's interiors!!!! LOL

Aren't you guys jumping the gun? Joe Lieberman has said he hasnt ruled out switching to the GOP, which would leave us in charge of the Senate.

The trucks are dropping off inducements to him right now.

Yeah, Joe Lieberman would lose all sense of honor after having promised his constituents in Connecticut and 5 prominent Democratic senators who ruffled feathers to support him that he would caucus with the Democrats if he won...if he jumped ship to the Republican Party. Lieberman is much too smart for that, plus his honor is one of those things he holds dear. But he also knows that as an independent in the current environment he holds a lot of sway, so he can have fun dropping hints about his ability to jump ship.

Andrew

Liberman is a pussy and we don't like Aholes like him in the Republican party! He can go suck a rope!

I have played "UNO" that way with my church friends!

Author: Nwokie
Monday, November 13, 2006 - 1:36 pm


Aren't you guys jumping the gun? Joe Lieberman has said he hasnt ruled out switching to the GOP, which would leave us in charge of the Senate.

The trucks are dropping off inducements to him right now.

boy if Joe did that a lot of Libs would sure be eating crow!

Liberman has always been a pussy! And eating crow is the EXTREME RIGHTS job after last Tuesday's election.
American has spoken get the F over it!

The funny part about Lieberman, is that this was a guy that was on the brink of his career, and now look at the power he holds. You have to respect someone who can come back like that. Unfortunately for the GOP, their support of Lieberman will help support a Democratic majority, with some small thanks going out to Macaca George and Rush Limpblaugh, of course.

I'm as impressed as I am disgusted with "it's all about me" Joe.

Liberman is a pussy!

He is a good man. I hope he switches to the GOP. He would have more power that way than he would as an independent. I hope the leaders of the GOP are courting him.

Liberman is a good man.

He just might switch if the cut and run John Murtha becomes senate President! Thats what Nancy "Strech" Polosi wants!

Well if "SEND YOUR YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN TO DIE IN IRAQ FOR NO GOOD REASON, NO WMD'S" DUHbya has his way along with Herr Wayner this country would be run by ONLY neo-CONers....

SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE

"American has spoken get the ** over it!"

My Trix. Really changed our tune, haven't we? I thought it was about building consensus and working together, since we're all Americans.

Now we see the real left. And leftists call conservatives arrogant? Better check out that mirror.

In two very short years, you'll be whistling a new tune...only it will be in a minor key.

Herb

I'm NOT a leftie there Herb.... Your still NOT listening I see.
We saw what YOUR EXTREME RIGHT did. It DEVIDED the nation. THANKS!
In two short years YOUR President will leave office with the WORST approval ratings of any sitting President in moadern times.
Have fun with that.
Thanks for not reading or listening Herb YOUR a TRUE neo-CONer to the end. What YOU think is the only way.
You and Wayner should live together....

You are a leftie at least you come across like one. If you are anything else, Trix, I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Has anyone played "Uno" with the "nuclear option?"

Author: Trixter
Monday, November 13, 2006 - 8:04 pm


Well if "SEND YOUR YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN TO DIE IN IRAQ FOR NO GOOD REASON, NO WMD'S" DUHbya has his way along with Herr Wayner this country would be run by ONLY neo-CONers....

SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE

what do you mean no weapons? There were 500 of them found! Commie!

That's PROPAGANDA!

NAZI!!!!

SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE
SEIG HILE

"what do you mean no weapons? There were 500 of them found! Commie!"

Once again, show us proof. The government and the media were both awful quiet about 500 WMD's being found in Iraq.

Proof my boy. Proof.

you really don't want proof do you? There were photos of the weapons and eveything but of course that wasn't good enough. It never is.

Not even a week after an utterly devastating defeat in which the Democrats took control of both the Senate and House, and gained a majority of governorships and state houses nationwide, Herb is already telling us "wait until 2008."

Give it up Herb and go back under the rock you've been under for a while. It's where both you and your extremist views belong.

again, as I posted elsewhere, in a speech on Dec 18, 2005, Bush said that "we weren't able to find wmds in iraq."

PLEASE ignore the troll and move on. Don't wreck the enjoyment of this forum for others.

We found 500 WMD's. Saddam was supposed to declare them , not Bush.Saddam is obviously your hero. Are you going to protest his death sentence? and why do you want to pick a fight so much Pete? You call someone a troll and yet no one fights the way you do.

Wayne, please tell me from where you know that we found 500 WMDs. Cite your resource for that. Or did someone just, you know, tell you that? Because if that's all it takes, I'll tell you something else. Will you then use that as fact too?

Why do you hate our troops so much?

Why do you? You are the one who wants them all home so the terrorists can jump all over them!
Are you rooting for the terrorists? Is America that bad of a country that you don't want us to win any war?

We've already won. It's over. We got the WMDs, Saddam out - what more IS there? It's won. Just because terrorists in Iraq don't know it - or believe it - doesn't matter. WE know it.

What more do you want?

And terrorists won't jump all over them. They can't. The fact that we haven't had another attack on American soil PROVES it, right?

So let's pull out, right?

WW was Hitler just your idol or what???

I believe your idol was Kruschev.
And if we pull out now Iran will take over. Do you want the terrorists to win CJ?

Yes. I want the terrorists to win. What are you going to do about it?

So where is it that you live again?

Stalin and Hiltler were your favs? Bin Laden is your current Idol? Along with Clinton and Pelosi?? Pol Pot????

Your hero is Stalin and Saddam. Are you going to protest his hanging?

DAMN RIGHT!
But YOURS???
NO Fin WAY!!!!
I HATE American haters!!!!

I don't hate anybody. I hate sin.

"I don't hate anybody. I hate sin."

Then don't sin.

Just like gay marriage: If you don't like it, don't have one.

Pretty simple concept.

Gay marriage is sin in God's eyes. We don't need that in America. One can love his neighbor and be against gay marriage. I am amazed that you are unable to see the religious objection to that.

"Gay marriage is sin in God's eyes. We don't need that in America. One can love his neighbor and be against gay marriage. I am amazed that you are unable to see the religious objection to that."

And I am amazed at your unwillingness to see that organized religion is not the law of the land in the United States. Your religion or anyone else's.

As I said, if you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. Just don't take away the rights of others to enjoy lifelong happiness with the ones they love because **YOU** object to it. I don't wish to take away your enjoyment of your religion, so don't wish to take this away.

Oh and don't give me this "marriage isn't a right" crap. That won't fly mister.

But it's the TRUTH! Bob told me so. It's all right here in the good book. Just cross out all the wrong parts and what's left is golden!

Trust me, God says it's perfectly ok to judge your fellow man and hate accordingly! Lots of people do it. Come on in and join us! You know you just want to. Come on in. The water is fine and you will feel a lot better about it.

Oh, those guys down the street? Don't worry about them. They crossed out the wrong parts. We have it right here in this building. Man, look at what a force we are. Surely we all can't be wrong can we?

Author: Brianl
Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 8:55 pm


"Gay marriage is sin in God's eyes. We don't need that in America. One can love his neighbor and be against gay marriage. I am amazed that you are unable to see the religious objection to that."

And I am amazed at your unwillingness to see that organized religion is not the law of the land in the United States. Your religion or anyone else's.

As I said, if you don't like gay marriage, don't have one. Just don't take away the rights of others to enjoy lifelong happiness with the ones they love because **YOU** object to it. I don't wish to take away your enjoyment of your religion, so don't wish to take this away.

Oh and don't give me this "

sorry but God objects to gay marriage as much as I do. I get the feeling that the only reason you are for it is because I am against it and you want to pick a fight.

Zzzzzzzzz.

"I don't hate anybody. I hate sin."

Then you hate yourself, a lot.

I bet you are not really for gay marriage are you Pete? You just say you are because you want to pick a fight. And you accuse me of trolling!

Wayne - as a matter of fact, yes, I AM for gay marriage. I believe that ALL PERSONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAPPINESS WITH THE ONE THEY LOVE FOREVER, RECOGNIZED BY THEIR GOD AND THE STATE THEY LIVE IN. I BELIEVE THAT ALL COUPLES, GAY OR STRAIGHT, SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENJOY THE SAME PRIVILEGES AND BENEFITS AFFORDED TO MARRIED COUPLES.

There, you happy?

Oh and stop acting like you are God. You clearly aren't.

I am for equal rights for everyone when those rights are ones granted by the state. So whether you call it gay marriage or a civil union, if two people are willing to make a legal and binding commitment, same sex or opposite sex, the state should recognize ALL unions as equal and apply the law and benefits equally. Your church or religion is free to not approve of that or not recognize that, but the state is not, otherwise, people's constitutional rights are being denied.

You only mean equal rights for gays. You don't think conservative Christians should have equal rights do you? Don't you have only one thing in mind with "equality" and that is gay marriage? You sure argue like thats the case. If the church disapproves of it that's too bad. Isn't that why you want gay marriage?

Author: Brianl
Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 6:49 am


Wayne - as a matter of fact, yes, I AM for gay marriage. I believe that ALL PERSONS HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAPPINESS WITH THE ONE THEY LOVE FOREVER, RECOGNIZED BY THEIR GOD AND THE STATE THEY LIVE IN. I BELIEVE THAT ALL COUPLES, GAY OR STRAIGHT, SHOULD BE ABLE TO ENJOY THE SAME PRIVILEGES AND BENEFITS AFFORDED TO MARRIED COUPLES.

There, you happy?

Oh and stop acting like you are God. You clearly aren't.

God condemns gays and is for traditional marriage as much as I am. And equality means only one thing: gay marriage. I can't understand why you don't understand my religious objections to it

Equality for EVERYONE means what? Do you think that God discriminates? I don't think so!!!!
Jesus said that NOBODY is above ANYONE! One person is NO better than anyone else EXCEPT God! Are you better than everyone else or a homosexual man or woman???
Don't think so Wayner......
Shape up or YOUR going to hell! Why in God's name would he want someone as black hearted as you in Heaven???

You don't mean for eveyrone. You only mean for gays. We all know thats what you mean. You think conservative Christians are subhuman.

The last time I checked, conservative christians have all the rights they need.

The last time I checked, your church doesn't create laws, so if your church disapproves of something, that's YOUR problem, not the rest of society's.

And for the last time, everyone here understands your religious objections to gay marriage, but your religious objections mean NOTHING in regards to the laws that govern us all, and thankfully so.

"God condemns gays"

I have a problem with that statement, because I don't believe in god. So why would I lend you any credibility when you say such garbage? Would you believe me if I told you that the tooth fairy will leave you a silver dollar underneath your pillow case if you put a tooth there?

God condemns homosexuality. Thats what the Bible says. Your problem is with him not me or my church.

It's real hard to have a problem with a figment of someone's imagination.

God must have that too because he condemns homosexuality.

"sorry but God objects to gay marriage as much as I do."

Wow! I now put Wayne in the same category as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Jim Jones and the Bhagwan. You guys all have the same authority, hearing it straight from God's mouth to your ear. Amazing!!!!

You need to start your own church! In your basement, like the good Reverend Foley!

WHERE DOES GOD CONDEM HOMOSEXUALITY???

In the Bible. Do you want to see where?
I think you are only arguing for gay marriage because you want to pick a fight.

You need to talk to my pastor mrs M. and see if you can convince him to support gay marriage. I think you also want to pick a fight more than you are really for it.

SHOW ME!
The only reason you say anything is to pick a fight

Tell your pastor to go to hell.

WW show me where it says homosexuality is wrong in the Bible.....
What FORM of the Bible are you talking about? What Religion are you talking about?
Man had BASTARDIZED the Bible so many times that NOBODY knows what the truth is...
Are you saying YOUR faiths Bible is right???

I believe, like the majority of people, that civil unions should be allowed.

Let each church/religion decide if they want to perform/recognize wedding ceremonies.

Does gay marriage personally affect you or me? No. Not in the least.

As I already told you, I'm married to my dogs. (But not the cats)

Remember that guy in Enumclaw Washington who died last year after having sex with a horse at that "special" farm? The horse perforated his colon.

Sex with animals is not a crime in WA. I find that about 1000 times more sickening and perverse than a 2 adults committing to each other in front of God and friends and family.

Get your priorities straight, doofus.

I think sex with animals in Oregon is ILLEGAL! I might be wrong but I don't think so.....

Sex with Wayne should be illegal. In every state.


By "state" I mean the 50 states, not the other kind...

It's clear to me that the only solution to this problem is to ban *all* legal marriage. No marriage for anyone - civil unions for all.

If you want to get married, that's between you and your church.

Agreed!

Author: Trixter
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:34 am


I think sex with animals in Oregon is ILLEGAL! I might be wrong but I don't think so.....

that would have to be legal if we allow gay marriage, Trix. Equal protection would guarentee that. Is that what you want?

Author: Trixter
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:34 am


I think sex with animals in Oregon is ILLEGAL! I might be wrong but I don't think so.....

that would have to be legal if we allow gay marriage, Trix. Equal protection would guarentee that. Is that what you want?

[red{
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.}

You don't think the Bible condemns homosexuality Trix? See above

Jesus does not condem homosexuality.

Author: Trixter
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:34 am


I think sex with animals in Oregon is ILLEGAL! I might be wrong but I don't think so.....

that would have to be legal if we allow gay marriage, Trix. Equal protection would guarentee that. Is that what you want?

[red{
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.}

You don't think the Bible condemns homosexuality Trix? See above. its 1 Corinthians 6

also check out Jude:

7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Jesus condemns gay marriage in Matthiew 19. If you don't believe me ask either Dale Ebel or Bill Ritchie, two outstanding pastors


4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'[a] 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'[b]? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Matthew 19 is about divorce not gay marriage.

Theologian Daniel J. Harrington disagrees with you: "

It went against Jewish practice and even against the permission of the Scriptures (Deut. 24:1-4), and it appears in Mark (10:2-12), (Luke 16:18 and Matt. 5:31-32), and 1 Corinthians (7:10-11). Of course, one must take account of the exceptions introduced by Matthew (see Matt. 5:32 and 19:9) and Paul (see 1 Cor. 7:12-16). One must also ask how Jesus intended this teaching to be taken---whether as an ideal, a legal principle, a protection for women, a temporary measure (in the face of the coming kingdom of God), or whatever else. Nevertheless, it is fair to say that Jesus taught "no divorce."

Again the passage is about divorce and the Jewish understanding of divorce not about gay marriage.

No you are dead wrong. Jesus is condemning homosexuality. He is advocating traditional marriage and nothing else. The question may have been about divorce. But Jesus says that marriage is between male and female and thats it. You need to look at the original language here. I think you need to visit Israel sometime if you think the Bible doesn't condemn that. I think we can be sure that Jesus would never allow anything Moses preached against.

Raise your hand if you think Wayne's physically been to Israel. (Unless it was was on his and Mom's cruise itinerary last year.)

And Wayne, stop saying "dead wrong".

I doubt Jesus would approve of that.

Plus, it's stupid.

Its denial to say that Jesus doesn't condemn gay marriage if he says that marriage is between male and female. I think you are more interested in picking a fight than you are in supporting gay marriage at all.

Well, we really don't have Jesus' word on that now do we?

Again, for the last damn time, what consenting adults do, as long as it hurts no one, is of no real concern to me.

We, as a country, as Americans, as humans, have much bigger problems and issues that take precedence over what adults do in the bedroom.

Rules...Rules...Rules...Can nobody read the FRACKIN Rules?

http://feedback.pdxradio.com/show.cgi?tpc=2186&post=156463#POST156463

Author: Mrs_merkin
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 7:59 pm


Again, for the last damn time, what consenting adults do, as long as it hurts no one, is of no real concern to me.

We, as a country, as Americans, as humans, have much bigger problems and issues that take precedence over what adults do in the bedroom

You aren't fooling anybody, you know thats not the last time. And what you want is for gays to parade naked outside my house. Forget about the bedroom!

Merkin-no doubt there are much bigger problems in the world. 30,000 dead children today due to preventable starvation. 9 thousand dead today due to HIV/AIDS. 36 million Americans are in poverty and 5-7 million of those are children. And we are the richest nation on earth. Global warming and the destruction of God's creation are big concerns. These are the true moral issues. Not gay marriage and abortion.

"Global warming and the destruction of God's creation are big concerns."

How does God feel about the Religious Right burning, strafing, raping and pillaging every last ounce of natural resource left? Is THIS the "Will of God" as well?

Yeah, us white religious nutbags I bet have every great Native American leader ever rolling over in their collective graves at the sight of how we ruin the land.

This is why they just can't focus on anything else but their divisive issues.

If any one of them steps back and takes a hard look at the hypocracy and bigotry of it all, they are out of the game, right then and there.

This is also why they consider any view but theirs a threat. Any ideology with that many holes in it needs to have enemies to keep the loyal focused on the false prize. It's all about self-serving hate and greed.

Author: Brianl
Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 8:51 pm


"Global warming and the destruction of God's creation are big concerns."

How does God feel about the Religious Right burning, strafing, raping and pillaging every last ounce of natural resource left? Is THIS the "Will of God" as well?

Yeah, us white religious nutbags I bet have every great Native American leader ever rolling over in their collective graves at the sight of how we ruin the land.

I think what makes God angry is the way some secular leftists are trying their best to undermine our religious freedom in public so they can impose their "secular morality' on others, especially with gay marriage and criminals who only serve 3 months probation for raping a child. My church has done a lot in terms of serving the poor. But that can't stop us from caring about sin.

"And what you want is for gays to parade naked outside my house"

Gimme your address, I'll gladly parade naked outside your house. My big fat naked ass, cellulite, leaky boobs, tattoos, angel wings, halo and mask...I'll let it all hang out just for you, Wayne! I'll make lots of noise moaning your name so the neighbors all check it out. Or I could just knock on their doors to ask if you're there. What a great idea! God, that'd be fun!

Maybe I'll wear a thong and pasties so I can't get arrested...


Caroling, anyone?

LMFAO!!

Good grief, that's funny!

yes, yes, sing CHRISTIAN Christmas songs!

I think what makes God angry is the way some NAZI EXTREME REICHERS are trying their best to undermine our PERSONAL freedomS in public so they can impose their "secular morality' on others. PERIOD!

God loves everybody Trix and not just liberals who want to force their agenda down the throats over everybody else. And if you want to speak for God why don't you believe in him first?

I think god thinks you're an idiot.

But he is loved.

Even though he's gay.

God loves the whole world whether or not we are gay, thats the point. Jesus died for everybody, whether or not you think they are idiots because they don't agree with your "secular morality."

So god loves the gay people then?

God loves gay people, but he also says it's okay to discriminate against them. He told me this last night.

You don't even believe in him how could he tell you anything? God also told you he hates sin but of course there is no such thing with you, right?

Wayne, you'd better watch it with all this " speaking for God " stuff. If I have seen anything recently, it's that he's taking many people like you out.

God hates sin?

And your support for this is what exactly?

The Bible. Romans 3 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

Also "our righteousness is as filthy rags" according to Isaiah.

Author: Chickenjuggler
Friday, November 17, 2006 - 2:19 pm


Wayne, you'd better watch it with all this " speaking for God " stuff. If I have seen anything recently, it's that he's taking many people like you out.


Pete and Trix are the only ones who claim they speak for God. But neither believe in him so that make me a bit suspicious. God has made it very clear what his opinion is of sin.

Whoa! I don't think I've EVER claimed to speak for god. Plus, I don't really believe in god anyway.

GOD told me last night Wayne is GAY.

Yep. THE God, not the Godfather, or any of Billy Rancher's Unreal Gods, but the Man upstairs. That God. Wayne's Gay.

God sure didn't talk to you. He told me the opposite. Plus he told me there will be no gays in heaven. You need to read the Bible because thats how God talks to




instatepete
Friday, November 17, 2006 - 4:50 pm


Whoa! I don't think I've EVER claimed to speak for god. Plus, I don't really believe in god anyway.

Why did you say that God spoke to you then?

He was being facetious. (however you spell it)

Maybe he was but I find it a bit strange that someone who claims that God spoke to him would not believe in him. How is that possible?

You know he spoke to me last night too. Great guy actually. Was nice of him to finally put the gender issue to rest. Man, that's been bugging me to no end.

He just can't stand those weenies, who think he is a girl! Everybody knows that only men kick the sort of ass that real gods kick!

The other gods are making fun of him too. Don't worry, those are other universes we are not privy to. We are good to go with our one god here.

Being all powerful can really cramp your style because you are literally bound by your own words when you have that much power. One slip up and you've literally gotta wait an eternity to take another stab at it.

That's the real reason we haven't seen more of him you know. No amount of prayer will change it either. Like it or not, we all are gonna be staying the course until events play out. That's just the way these revelations go.

What really chaps his arse is the whole in my image bit. Hilarious! Look at us, a bunch of weenies! The other dieties say god creates like a girl! So far the other universes have been a lot more interesting than this one is.

Such a big space with nothing in it. Good grief, what's to like? In hindsight, it might have been better to more fully populate ones creation. Maybe we will grow to fill the space, but it's gonna be a long while yet.

The other universes and their gods are totally busy. Big ass wars, lots of worshipers, the whole thing! Pass the popcorn please!

See, Wayne it's pretty easy!

I agree with you for once. I don't understand why the gender deal is so big with some people. I think that fits in with what the Bible says too. I have always beleived God was a male and not a female. It sounds like God may well have spoken to you. He will speak to anyone who will listen. But it always helps to listen.

God told DUHbya to attack Iraq? God wanted VIOLENCE???
BULLSHIT!

God knew there would be plenty more violence if we didn't go in, Trix. God told me he is offended by your profanity, by the way.

"God wanted VIOLENCE???"

Trixter, go back to the Bible and read God's judgement on Canaan, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Indeed, there is nothing new under the sun. Ecclesiastes 1:9

Herbeth

Theologically speaking God is neither male or female. "Father" is a term of endearment that Jesus and others used. In a more intimate way Jesus used the term "Abba Father or 'daddy'." Jesus is making sure those who hear this know that God is a very personal God so using terms like Father makes it easier for those to understand, plus it was how God was viewed in many ways back then. But other names for God were used as well.

However if it helps view it like this: God-Father, Jesus-Son, Holy Spirit-female. I try and stay away from using the pronoun Father when referring to God or Lord.

Also the stories of "God's Judgment" need to be viewed carefully and not just seen as some violent action God has taken for no reason.

The story of Canaan, Sodom and Gomorrah have no bearing on what is going on in Iraq.

"Blessed are the Peacemakers"

"The story of Canaan, Sodom and Gomorrah have no bearing on what is going on in Iraq."

Chris, you take issue that the Almighty may have displaced Saddam and his sons, given their violence and torture visited on the Iraqi people during their reign?

This does not necessarily have to be political.

Herb

God is a male, Chris.

This is where we need to understand biblical history with our own history and current affairs. It's easy to weave a biblical story to make it take on a current situation. There is a danger in this because you are assuming you know Gods heart and thought process...in other words "Playing God."

Wayne if God being male is relevant for you so be it. However many biblical scholars and theologians will disagree with you. God is neither male or female. Jesus however is certainly male. Deeper study into the subtleties of biblical language and translation might be helpful.

"There is a danger in this because you are assuming you know Gods heart and thought process...in other words "Playing God.'"

Oh, you mean like saying things like your statement:

"The story of Canaan, Sodom and Gomorrah have no bearing on what is going on in Iraq."

You made a definitive statement.

With all due respect, that waves off a possibility that may indeed be true.

Unless your name is maybe someone like Billy Graham, Martin Luther, C.S. Lewis or Hal Lindsey, we can agree that neither of us probably knows more than the other on this particular situation.However, your wife sounds like she's smart so she may have us both beat.

God hates sin. And the wanton murder of thousands of innocents, as Saddam did, is pretty sinful. If God took out plenty of others, it's possible that He did with Saddam and his henchmen, too.

Herb

I've a coupla problems with this current discussion.

I don't see how God can actually hate things. This is a human emotion that comes with the package. For a being to be omnipotent (if I spelled it right), many expectations we have unmet, which lead to emotions, would not exist from God's perspective.

Disapprove, likely. Teaching, likely. Hate, I don't think so.

If anything, sin is all about the struggle to reach a higher state --one where things like purity are the norm.

If we are created in God's own image, then he is clearly genderless as our sexes combine to form a whole by which we might divine some of what God's image might actually be.

Additionally, from this perspective of teaching, mentoring, etc... sin is sin. It all prevents the traveller from reaching their goal of a higher plane, heaven, worthiness, ...

In this alone, there is no reason to hate sin as the level of sin and it's consequenses are equal where the greater journey is concerned. Either one sins or they don't, from that perspective.

Hate again is something we project. This is not valid from what I understand gods perspective might actually be.

Of course there is reason to hate sin. You may have heard the statement "God hates the sin but loves the sinner." God certainly does love everybody. But he is also a holy God and sin is what keeps us from fellowship with him. Thats why Jesus came. He is what Simon and Garfunkel called "the Bridge over Troubled Waters"(Paul said in an interview that the song was a gospel song originally.). I get the feeling that God is working with you MK!

To be clear, it's not a personal problem, but a philosophical one.

We have reason to hate sin, but it's a very big stretch to come up with a reason for god to hate sin. Frankly, it's a stiff burden for him to be hating anything actually.

Personally, there are very few defensible reasons for hate anyway. IMHO, way too many people evoke this emotion without solid reasons and they also project it onto god or the target of their particular religion for their own gratification, not any real sense of reason.

If there is a god, and that god actually hates, that god is not worthy of any worship for it is no better than we are.

"I don't see how God can actually hate things."

Was not Esau Jacob's brother? says the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, but hated Esau; I made his mountains a waste, his heritage a desert for jackals... Malachai 1:3

Psalm 5:5 says that God hates all workers of iniquity.

Other examples are Proverbs 6:16-19 & Psalm 11:5.

The problem is judging God by man's yardstick.

Along those lines [of the difference between man and God] like C.S. Lewis said: "If you want to get the hang of it, imagine coming to earth as a slug."

Herb

Herb-

My statement was a reply to your assumption that what is going on in Iraq is some kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is not. I certainly don’t condone what Saddam has done to his people, yet I cannot condone how our President whose bad theology made the statement: “You’re either for us or against us.” So we (America) are good and righteous and anyone who believes differently is against us? When did America become the only country in the world to have God on its side? I quote Abe Lincoln again “…we should be on Gods side.”

Saddam is certainly guilty and I personally think he should die for his sins in this case. Did God bring justice upon Saddam and his henchmen? I really don’t know, so I will not presume.

So Herb answer me this. 30,000 children died today due to preventable starvation. The same amount died yesterday and the day before that and the day and weeks before that and years before that. Is that not a sin? There are over 3000 verses in the bible on poverty, yet we allow this to happen. Why?

In America Herb, the richest country in the world we have over 35 million in poverty and 5-8 million are children. 4000 women will die this year because of domestic violence. 9 million will die of HIV/Aids globally. The atrocities of Saddam, as horrible as they were don’t compare to the daily atrocities that are happening in our own country and beyond.

And on a personal note: My wife is very smart. Very intelligent and grew up in a very conservative church. G.A.R.B. Baptist, or as she called it Militant…as in “kill a commie for Christ” militant.

She was able to break free from those shackles and has experienced more freedom in her relationship with Christ. She understands the conservative mindset. The fear base propaganda she grew up with. She knows certain words are “problem” words for many conservatives. She is thankful to be as far away from that kind of church idiom and dogma. Yes Herb she does have you beat. But I’m the one married to her. Pretty smart of me eh?

Just so you know Karl Barth, Detrick Bonnehoffer, Jim Wallis, Walter Bruggerman, Phillip Yancy and my pastoral brain trust, as I call them, are just as intelligent as CS Lewis, Luther, Graham and Lindsey. I find Lindsey deplorable and frankly don’t read or have any desire to listen to him.

our President whose bad theology made the statement: “You’re either for us or against us.”

Hardly bad theology. Actually, it's very Scriptural:

Revelation 3:16 - `Because you are neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.'

God is not a wimp and he doesn't want mankind to act like one, either--especially when a murderous thug is slaughtering and raping innocents.

Or are you going to stand around and debate how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Get a grip.

Herb

Herb, do you think Reagan and George H. W. Bush will have to account to the Almighty for the way they enabled Saddam Hussein to use chemical weapons on Iranians and on his own people in the 1980s?

Why do all of you so-called Christians talk more about this fire and brimstone stuff instead of the actual teachings of Jesus Christ? Why do we never hear you talking about feeding the poor and the sick, or the fact that a rich man will have a tougher time getting into heaven than a camel fitting through the eye of a needle? Instead, you talk about the need for more tax cuts and how awful gay marriage is.

Honestly, if not for people like Chris Taylor who seem familiar with the actual teachings of Christ, I wouldn't have a good impression of Christians in general, because so many of them seem like hypocrites. Fortunately, I've met some terrific people who call themselves Christians.

Andrew

Herb-

So sorry to disagree with your doctrinal point of view but you're doing it again. Making something meant as metaphorical into literal.

And you didn't even have the decency to respond to the 30,000 childen dying daily.

"Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"

Andrew. Thanks.

This is from a Baptist minister who calls himself
"a former...the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it...kind of guy"

Title of the article: "When Religion Loses Its Credibility"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20061120/cm_usatoday/whenreligionlosesitscredib ility

onday, November 20, 2006 - 10:45 pm


Herb, do you think Reagan and George H. W. Bush will have to account to the Almighty for the way they enabled Saddam Hussein to use chemical weapons on Iranians and on his own people in the 1980s?

We are all equal in God's eyes, Andrew. God is fair. He will reward justice and punish sin. Why do you single out conservatives like that? Don't you think that Bill Clinton will have to answer to God for his fooling around in the oval office and for lying before a grand jury?

Jesus can handle liers, he did with Peter.

Jesus is far more concerned about religious hypocrisy, pride and legalism. The far right and left are steeped in it.

Author: Missing_kskd
Monday, November 20, 2006 - 8:41 pm


To be clear, it's not a personal problem, but a philosophical one.

We have reason to hate sin, but it's a very big stretch to come up with a reason for god to hate sin. Frankly, it's a stiff burden for him to be hating anything actually.

Personally, there are very few defensible reasons for hate anyway. IMHO, way too many people evoke this emotion without solid reasons and they also project it onto god or the target of their particular religion for their own gratification, not any real sense of reason.

If there is a god, and that god actually hates, that god is not worthy of any worship for it is no better than we are.

MK the Bible says we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We were created by God to have fellowship with him. I agree that God loves everybody but like I said he is a holy God and will not tolerate sin. What Jesus did for us was offer access to God. Keep searching!

I think the mindset of the Herb's of the world is more dangerous than anything we currently face.

Herb, all of those references you gave are actually the words of man. If we don't fully understand God now (and we don't, C.S. Lewis and his slug analogy aside!), we really didn't then either.

An omnipotent being does not act like a 5 year old kid.

Sorry, but saying God hates anything is really not defensible. I'm not a believer, in any case, and this is perhaps one of the biggest reasons why.

If we are gonna be honest about God and what that really means, we've got to trancend the petty personifications and quit using faith to reaffirm our own warped tendancies.


Reinstate: I'm scared shitless frankly. A little too much dogma and we could easily go back 500 years. Damn, I would miss the next reinassince!

"Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the log in your own eye?"

Nice comment, chris. Herb clearly has a problem with contradictions.

kskd, we only have to go back a few decades before the natives get restless and respond accordingly at the ballot box.

"Jesus is far more concerned about religious hypocrisy, pride and legalism."

Agreed.

He is also very concerned about the slaughter of innocents, both in Iraq via Saddam and in the USA, courtesy of the abortion lobby.

How your hatred of Mr. Bush can allow you to simply wave away millions of oppressed, raped or tortured Iraqi's and American unborn is beyond me.

"You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb. Thank you for making me so wonderfully complex! Your workmanship is marvelous--how well I know it. You watched me as I was being formed in utter seclusion, as I was woven together in the dark of the womb. You saw me before I was born. Every day of my life was recorded in your book. Every moment was laid out before a single day had passed." Psalm 139:13-16.

Herb

Herb since you are choosing to read my post in a very selective manner you seem to miss that I have stated on several occasions that Bush's faith I believe is very sincere. I also feel you have sincerity in your faith walk. So you when you choose to say I hate Bush that is where I loose my respect for you and what you stand for, not your faith but your philosophy.

This is the kind of theologian that I enjoy. One who sees the bigger picture that God sees.

"People notice peacemakers because they dress funny. We know how the people who make war dress - in uniforms and medals, or in computers and clipboards, or in absoluteness, severity, greed, and cynicism. But the peacemaker is dressed in righteousness, justice, and faithfulness - dressed for the work that is to be done."
- Walter Brueggemann

I love the Psalms I am sorry you have attached yet another poor attempt at making it sound like it's anti abortion and putting the very political spin on it that you accuse me of. Herb you're an intelligent guy, why in Gods name do you choose to dumb yourself down?

"I love the Psalms ...you have attached yet another poor attempt at making it sound like it's anti abortion."

Incredible.

How could you possibly interpret it any other way?

The problem you have is in handling the Bible literally.

By saying it's merely metaphor leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation or any old interpretation one wants.

Same thing with the Constitution. Like Pharisees, lawyers have dissected our founding document and make it say stuff it doesn't, or simply make stuff up, because it doesn't fit their political paradigm.

And if Mr. Bush is sincere, as you state, then he's hardly the evil man the left has portrayed. Ask any woman no longer in one of Saddam's rape rooms. They're Mr. Bush's biggest backers and can explain it better than I ever could.

Herb

Herb writes:
And if Mr. Bush is sincere, as you state, then he's hardly the evil man the left has portrayed. Ask any woman no longer in one of Saddam's rape rooms. They're Mr. Bush's biggest backers and can explain it better than I ever could.

You mean, the same women who now can't go outdoors in Iraq without covering their faces or risk being killed by a religious authority? Yeah, that sure does sound like progress to me.

Andrew

Do you miss Saddam? Shall we put him back in power?

Wayne, you should know better than to expect liberals to give a straight answer. Especially when it comes to reveal their incessant hatred of Mr. Bush.

Herb

What about the US slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis? Oh yeah, they're just collateral damage.

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq is worse off today than before the invasion. And that is a result of the evil and ignorant Mr. Bush.

And some material that terrorists could use to attack the US has probably gotten into the hands of terrorists BECAUSE of the US invasion. Lots of sites with dangerous weapons or materials were left unguarded after the US invasion and looted. Although the US clearly knew what was in many of these buildings, because UN inspectors had seen it just weeks before, troops weren't dispatched to protect the sites. In some cases, US troops without orders to do otherwise simply watched the looting take place.

Andrew

Author: Reinstatepete
Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:58 am


What about the US slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis? Oh yeah, they're just collateral damage.

As bad as Saddam was, Iraq is worse off today than before the invasion. And that is a result of the evil and ignorant Mr. Bush.

-----

So do you want Saddam back in power so he can kill 300 thousand more Iraqis? You never did say whether or not Bush is the enemy and Saddam is your hero. Obviously thats the case.

Author: Herb
Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:26 am


Wayne, you should know better than to expect liberals to give a straight answer. Especially when it comes to reveal their incessant hatred of Mr. Bush.

Herb

---------
Right on, Herb. I think their hatred of Bush is beyond all reason. They think Saddam is a better man than Bush.

HerbaWRONG said>>>
Get a grip.

Sounds like you and Wayner have gotten too much of a grip.... YOUR TOO TIGHT GUYS! You ONLY live once in the bodies your in have fun with it and feel freedom! Your TOO pent up!!!!

Making the statement that Iraq was better off with Saddam than they are today IN NO WAY means that Saddam is a hero. He is not. But, Bush is certainly no hero either, since he made a bad situation worse. Get it??

Bush isn't ANYONE'S Hero...
Unless they're a little deft.......

"The problem you have is in handling the Bible literally.

By saying it's merely metaphor leaves the door wide open for misinterpretation or any old interpretation one wants."

Herb-

There are many ways to interpret scripture. If you interpret Psalms 139 as an anti abortion message that is up to you. I feel you are gravely underestimating the passage and actually giving it a disservice by your interpretation but that is between you and God.

I believe David is expressing his absolute wonder of Gods omnipresence. David is awed by God’s all-knowing gaze. But in verses 19-24 of Psalm 139, David asks to be removed from the company of the wicked.

How you get anti abortion from any of this is beyond me. I read it as David’s understanding that God knows him in a very intimate way. Remember David is a musician as well and this passage was probably sung. The word “Psalm” comes from the Greek word “Psalmos” which means “pluck.” As in plucking an instrument most likely a harp.

So imagine listening to David singing this song with his “plucked” instrument. There is an intimacy that David is sharing with God. A quiet celebration of awe inspired tenderness.

Herb if you and I were both listening to this song by David as he sung it and we asked him his inspiration I doubt he would say…” in about 3000 years this will be a great anti abortion song”

" Remove the log from your own eye before you remove the spec from mine " is obviously about Lasik Eye Surgery though.

Chris, it's pretty clearly about the unborn in the womb and God's hand in creating life.

Herb

But Herb that is YOUR interpretation.

David's relationship with God is intimate. "How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God!"

I believe it's about David's relationship to God and using the illustration of the child in the womb is apart of that intimacy. That is what is clear to me in the passage.

Hmm. I don't know Herb. Chris' way he backed it up seemed pretty credible to me.

or: Reinstatepete
Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:03 pm


Making the statement that Iraq was better off with Saddam than they are today IN NO WAY means that Saddam is a hero. He is not. But, Bush is certainly no hero either, since he made a bad situation worse. Get it??

-------------
I believe Saddam IS your hero. Bush is obviously your enemy and you would much rather Saddam be put back in power, wouldn't you? I think maybe you need to live for a day under Saddam's rule and see for yourself what a wonderful leader he really was. Maybe you should move to Iraq and fight for the Taliban.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!

Thats Psalm 139 and David is pretty clear that life begins before it is born.

Again- please read the entire passage and not selective parts. The Psalm has two main themes "God's Omniscience and Prayers for Protection." No where in the passage does it claim to be a pro life or anti abortion issue. However you and Herb have made it that. Which for me perverts the real meaning of the passage.

Psalm 139
For the director of music. Of David. A psalm.
1 O LORD, you have searched me
and you know me.

2 You know when I sit and when I rise;
you perceive my thoughts from afar.

3 You discern my going out and my lying down;
you are familiar with all my ways.

4 Before a word is on my tongue
you know it completely, O LORD.

5 You hem me in—behind and before;
you have laid your hand upon me.

6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,
too lofty for me to attain.

7 Where can I go from your Spirit?
Where can I flee from your presence?

8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;
if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there.

9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,
if I settle on the far side of the sea,

10 even there your hand will guide me,
your right hand will hold me fast.

11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide me
and the light become night around me,"

12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
the night will shine like the day,
for darkness is as light to you.

13 For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me
were written in your book
before one of them came to be.

17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
How vast is the sum of them!

18 Were I to count them,
they would outnumber the grains of sand.
When I awake,
I am still with you.

19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

20 They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.

21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?

22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies.

23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
test me and know my anxious thoughts.

24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
and lead me in the way everlasting.


Here is the whole passage and I don't see how you can justify a "pro-choice" position anywhere here. It looks pretty cut and dry to me that God thinks that life begins before birth and therefor abortion is an abomination to him.

Wayne, I suggest YOU move to Iraq and fight. I don't think we should be there in the first place, so WHY THE HELL would I want to go there and fight? If you believe so much in the Iraq war, I want you to sell your house, donate the profits to the defense department, and get your ass over in Iraq pronto!

All words and no action, just like the rest of the chickenshits.

When one has no argument, it's name-call and ad hominem attack city.

Herb

I think you are misunderstanding pro-life language with creative and gentle illustration.

I especially love this verse: " 17: How precious to me are your thoughts, O God! "

The word precious describes David's feelings towards God. It's relational. David is in a relationship with God and it's very personal to him. So he uses desciptive language or lyrics mind you, to help describe that relationship.

Pulling verses 16-19 and setting them aside as pro-life language is an insult to the entire passage and was not the intent of Psalm.

I understand the illustration because as a songwriter and musician myself I can totally hear the song and lyric as I have described.

Herb I am enjoying this debate with you even though we read it differently.

Pete is frustrated with Wayne, but we are all guilty of name calling.

Chris.

David is clearly talking about a child in the womb.

If you want to make it say something else, you can try.

But it doesn't say that.

David is talking about how God forms a child and knows the child before it is even born.

How about grasping that?

Herbert Milhous

David is clearly illustrating many aspects of his relationship with God. How about grasping that?

When one distances themselves from the literal, all kinds of other interpretations can spring up.

How about thinking that David is talking about space exploration? I'm sure we could concoct a theory on that as well.

BUT IT DOESN'T SAY THAT. That means it's a stretch. If you wanna go for the stretch, go ahead, knock yourself out. But don't be angry because literal Bible-believers don't buy your theory. I'm sure the Holy Ghost can convict us both. Maybe we're both wrong. I'll take my chances for now.

Herb

Maybe both of you are right. Could that be? Our relationship with God starts long before we are born and God values life very highly.

This is not some wild guessing game of mine or ethereal out of body experience. I have done some study on this passage since you posted it.

Literal interpretation has many pitfalls because you only give the passage face value. I re-read the version Wayne posted and the more I read it the more I am convinced it’s almost like a love song to God. Then turns to a prayer of protection.

Looking deeper into a passage and not just face value offers many other insights and surprises. I feel I am seeing David’s heart towards his maker and he uses descriptive language to express his feelings.

It’s a love song at its core.

Could very well be. It's also a song of praise, I believe.

Herb

Absolutely!

Kind of Fed up how all Herbs posts go straight to God or DICK Nixon....

Herb is a true neo-CONer....

God, guns and GAYS...

FEAR FEAR FEAR

Uh, Trix.

Most Americans see God as important.

I happen to agree.

Herb, do you believe in magic?

Ask the Lovin Spoonful

Herb said>>>
Most Americans see God as important.

Most Americans see their FREEDOMS just as important. And ALL Americans see Oxygen lots more important...

Without God, there is no freedom.

That's what the Founding Fathers were all about.

Herb

False truths is what your about Herb.....
That statement means nothing!

The brutal truth on this is that most Americans think God is important, but a majority of them don't put that importance over other domestic matters affecting us today.

That's a FACT right now.

Freedom and God are not linked at all.

Want to know where our freedom comes from?

The rule of law, backed by sacrifice from our founders. Maybe that's gods will, maybe not --nobody knows. That too is a FACT.

Oh, and answer me this then:

If god is the source of our freedom, how then can you extreme rightie tighties continue to try and legislate all sorts of crap using his will as a justification?

Either we are free or we are not.

Which is it?

So the people in Cuba who believe in god are free?

Herb???
Pete asked you a question???

We are free from sin if we belong to God.

WRONG!!!!

We are ALL sinners and if you don't believe that you really are IGNORANT beyond belief....

We're not talking sin, we're talking freedom.

I'll ask the question again, are people in Cuba who believe in god free?

I think we are talking about two different freedoms here.

One biblical reference for freedom comes from Paul in Galatians 5:1 "It is for Freedom that Christ has set us Free. Stand fast therefore."

Paul is talking to a church that has issues with circumcision among other issues.

The freedoms we have as a country under law can be used as an illustration for those of us with Christian belief. Freedom through Christ and our freedoms as a country have some mirroring but in many ways are vastly different.

I personally need to be respectful to those who don’t use or have understanding of “churchy” type language. Sometimes it’s like code words we use in our churches. We know what they mean but others may not. I try to avoid “churchy” words even among my church friends.

So KSKD I hope that helps. Freedom can mean very different things to different people depending on their own personal experiences.

Based on what Herb said about there not being freedom without god, and then referring to our founding fathers, it can be assumed that the freedom he is talking about is the freedom our country provides it's citizens, such as freedom of speech, freedom to own property, etc.

Chris, as always, I appreciate your point of view. I wish there were more people like you to temper the snake oil salesmen types.

Author: Trixter
Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 12:50 pm


WRONG!!!!

We are ALL sinners and if you don't believe that you really are IGNORANT beyond belief....

------
Only God can free us from sin. We can't do that ourselves. What is ignorant is if you think you can do that.

PULL YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS WAYNER!
Where in the F did I say that statement that you just made?
God i n heaven your the most ignorant person on planet earth!
NOW! I'm done with you! I've said it in the past but JHC on a popscicle stick your IGNORANT!

Then the Bible is ignorant, Pete.

Ok, we've got freedom from sin and we've got freedom in general where permissible actions and ideas are concerned.

On the freedom from sin bit, that's always been a point of contention with me. If one believes in god and is saved, for example, this does not free one from sin. What really happens is that one may or may not continue to sin (likely to sin more than not), but devotion to god and accpetance of one's sinful nature is returned with tolerance for that and acceptance into heaven, etc...

At the end of the day, one still is what one is. You just feel somewhat better about it and believe that god feels better about it too.

Where freedom of the more literal kind is concerned, that's for the courts baby!



Wayne, the Bible is a thing. It simply is. It makes no sense to attach things like ignorance to it like that. Try saying what you really mean instead.

God forgives all sinners but they have to repent first.Without faith the Bible can never be more than a thing.

"If god is the source of our freedom, how then can you extreme rightie tighties continue to try and legislate all sorts of crap using his will as a justification?"

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.'

Edmund Burke

Yeah, suck it.

Both of you.

Neither one of you has anything remotely close to a rational command of what God's will may be.

So God is a Republican in America. Got it.

What is God in China? Or can he not vote there?

What about Canada?

"The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend"

Abe Lincoln

I'd sure like to be free from God's mouthpieces here on Earth -- SURELY that is in the Bible, is it not?

Show me where? I have never seen any such animal.

Wayne, I never said the bible was ignorant. I'm saying your interpretation of it is ignorant.

And another thing, times change. The bible was written how many years ago?? Hell, it's been not quite 50 years since the Supreme Court ruling banning segregation on city public transit. 50 years ago!! Back in 1956, your kind would have been denouncing Rosa Parks. Your kind will ALWAYS be on the wrong side of history.

No I believe in the Bible and have for 50 years. My authority is the Word of God and not the Supreme Court. What does segregation have to do with anything?

Your last question illustrates your stupidity.

Wayne, it's a classic leftist tactic. When liberals have no argument, it all gets down to name-calling.

So much for the kinder, gentler democrat party.

Remember their former leader with his 'nuts & sluts' campaign to destroy women he knew. It's a democrat tradition to let loose with the ad hominem attacks. They simply can't help themselves.

Any time now, Trix will probably let loose with his neo-con nazi tripe. Which is sad, because it gives tripe a bad name.

Herb

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving

Nah, you give yourself a bad name!

Actually Herb, the Dems are kinder, more gentle, big tent, the whole deal.

But they are an American party and that means a coupla things where legislating morality are concerned that just does not fit you and Wayne well at all.

The Democratic party is the peoples party. (Well, when it's not kissing up to the major corps --but that's another issue) It's not "God rules all" party.

There is no authority on God's will. It's arbitary. Bubba down the street knows as much about it as anyone does. My point being, no persons view of god can be held above anothers where matters of law are concerned. To believe otherwise is stupid.

To advocate regulation of others is flat out offensive and anti-American, thus the crap you two end up taking over time.

You might not care, but others clearly do. It's selfish and harmful to others to do what you do.

You can't be serious MK. The Dems aren't hardly kind and gentle when the libs can't make any point without insulting or swearing. Thats pretty agressive to me. When you say the "peoples party" isn't that what the Communist countries had?

The Bible is the authority on the will of God. Its not a matter of what a person says is the will of God what matters is what God has written down.

Completely serious.

You are a bible thumper, thumping like a pre-teen seeing great porn for the first time.

It's offensive, anti-American, selfish and bigoted.

Nearly everything you've posted here is a threat to my personal freedom, and that of all Americans. What you advocate is a theocracy and that's not the deal here. It's harmful and I don't condone harm in any form. I think it's particularly horrible that you condone it, using religion as a crutch to justify it.

No real Christian --or sincere religious person would ever do that. You, sir are completely false in this and it shows big.

The majority of Americans could give two shits about what you think God's will may or may not be. A significant number of those find you offensive, etc... There is a reason why not everybody goes to the same church or believes in the same religion and you are one of the biggies why.

I consider you and others like you to be threats on par with the Taliban, frankly. Please do pass that along. I'll take all comers on this matter.

That's why there is no more gentle coming from this Liberal. I've seen what you are all about and I've seen enough. Being Liberal does not mean weak and it does not mean stupid. You are finding that out here and that's a damn good thing. Please let me know if you haven't had enough.

Any discussion with you is a one way street. You are only interested in finding common ground that furthers your vision of God's kingdom embodied here in the United States, with your favorite thumpers, thumping from the white house, delivering God's will to the masses according to the Bible.

This is the biggest crok of shit I've ever seen, and I've seen some pretty stinky stuff.

Sorry buddy. You are probably a nice guy and all that, but I've no tolerance for those not willing to exchange it with me in like kind.

Zero, none. Toss respect in there too. None of that either.

Hope you feel like shit. If I can help that in any way, know I'm here for you.

Happy Turkey day. Know a majority of this nation thinks people like you suck hard.

Let me make a coupla other things clear.

I don't care what you believe. In fact, I support the right for you to do so. This is key to personal freedom and I support your right in this as much as I do anyones. How offensive I think it is has nothing to do with it.

I don't care if you engage in advocacy either. That's all good.

However, I do care that you, and others like you, are willing to do basically anything to advance your beliefs into law, thus denying others their freedom of thought and action in these matters.

Either you take freedom of religion seriously or you don't. You don't.

You will forgive crimes against the people, will lie or distort facts, engage in less than honest communication, etc... all for the chance to get your view heard and maybe legislated.

That's not ok.

You may not like what I write, nor how I write it, but you will never find me engaginig in a less than honest way. When I enter into a discussion it's real. The potential exists for learning on my end to the fullest extent possible.

This is not true for you, and others like you and that sucks because you are essentially leveraging this forum here to advance your goals without actually giving anything of value back.

Believe what you want, but at least be honest about it. Trying to justify being a bigot with religion is a cheap ass shot. Just admit you are a bigot and tell us why. That I can respect. Won't like it, but that's not my problem.

In this nation, you are completely free to be a bigot. However that comes at a price and that price is the reaction of your peers. How you feel about that is up to you.

The biggie is the dishonesty and the deliberate effort to subvert the system to get your way. That's where I draw the line, because that's where the harm is.

Truth is, you can be a bigot and only harm yourself for the most part. If you are allowed to push it farther, by doing what it takes to regulate others into having to share your bigotry, then that's where the harm is.

You will get as much push back as it takes on that score.

There is a reason why you cannot bring good support for your crap to the table; namely, that it's crap! There is no sane justification for many of your views. That's why you bring God into it in the first place!

Again, attempting to regulate others through less than honest means is where the line is. Stay below that and you are just another bigot I can tolerate. Not everybody is perfect and we all have our issues.

However, some of us have a little problem with others and that problem is tolerance. I'll tolerate you being a bigot, letting social norms apply the pressure. No biggie.

You, and Herb and others like you, don't have the backbone to return tolerance in like kind. Again, that's where the harm is.

Honestly, if you all got your way, I would have to be doing things and living my life as if your beliefs were truths. They are not truths and anyone with the strength of character to own up to that knows it.

In this, any real American has a lot of strength. It's not easy to exercise tolerance in the way Americans are supposed to be doing it. Conservatives, Liberals, Greens, you name it. All takes strength of character to live with others in a free society.

You don't have that strength. You would rather pass laws so you don't have to live among your fellow Americans and see them for the people they are. That sucks Wayne.

Grow up and start playing with the big kids. It will do you some real good.

"grow up?" Why don't you say what you really mean here! AGREE OR ELSE!

thump, thump, thump . . .

No Wayne, I'm saying support your shit.

"Because God says so", is not support.

Why?

Simple, anyone else can say God says something else and there is no way to prove / disprove the differences.

This means, for example, if you feel Gay people should not marry, then you need to come up with a reason why that's not "God said so", or be honest about your bigorty and move forward from there.

Maybe you've got some valid reasons. We've not heard those, only the hate echo from the church you go to.

Big difference between you and me.

Given the power to legislate people like me away, you would do it in a second. God's will and all that crap.

I wouldn't. --unless I found some rational reason why. Frankly, freedom demands that I don't, so I won't.

Secondly, you would do essentially anything for that power. I would not. Again, there are some elementary boundaries established here that mean a lot. Violating those to get my way means being an American means nothing.

One other biggie. Using religion as a crutch. When you say you have religious objections, those really are personal objections you cloak in religion --as if you have no real problem, but the rest of us do. We just don't believe the right stuff and that somehow entitles you to some additional say others don't have.

If I have an objection to something, you can count on it being voiced in a rational way with facts using words mutually accepted by all. No labels, no arbitrary "God's will" bullshit, no lies or manupulations. (To the best of my ability that is.)

My approach is honest and debatable. Yours is arbitrary, not debatable and less than honest.

Who is using religion as a crutch? Certainly I am not and nobody who is a believer that I know of is either. Don't you think we should have standards of right or wrong? What do we base it on if its not the Bible? There are other books that religions use but I know of no other book besides the Bible in which we can find forgiveness of sins and forgiving others. What in the world is wrong with having standards to live by? God has given us standards for a reason, I hope you know that. Its not because he is mad at us or anything. Its just that without standards there would be a lot of danger. Can you imagine how many murders there would be for example without the commandment that says "thou shalt not kill?" I bet quite a few. I am not telling you at all that you must believe the Bible. Its just that for me anyway its a pretty good standard for truth. God speaks to us in different ways but the Bible is the best way.

"like a pre-teen seeing great porn..."

We see where your head's at. Not only is what you describe illegal, but no wonder you have a hard time grasping anything about God.

Herb

thump, thump, thump . . .

You both are idiots.

In my Christian faith I have always tried to use plenty of common sense. The Bible is but one way of looking at things.

I come from the belief there are many paths up the mountain.

"Who is using religion as a crutch?"

You are, of course!

You advocate discrimination and claim it's justified by your religion. Sorry, but that's not how it goes. The reality is that you would discriminate for whatever reason you have personally for doing so. We've no authoratitive voice from God, if he exists, on the matter at all.

That's the crutch part.

Hell, you won't even admit to our equality as people, even though your claimed religion clearly spells that out.

That too is the crutch part.

Either you embrace all of it, or you are using just some of it.

When you do this, you devalue religion in general. This harms the good people wanting to practice it for their own enlightenment.


Chris: Totally. That's the beauty of our system here. Each of us takes the path that makes sense. Result is more of us choosing to take that path because we are completely free to do so.

Nobody I know uses religion as any crutch. What my religion gives me is hope. What kind of hope is there for you if you don't have any faith in the Supernatural?

I am not for discrimination. You probably mean gay marriage by that and I can never be for that. Can't you admit that is the only thing that is meant here?

No.

Of course it's the current theme. No getting around that.

Equality is an all or nothing affair. Either one is a bigot or they are not. 90 percent good guy, 10 percent bigot is still a bigot.

You are for discrimination, otherwise you would have no problem finding a solid solution to the discrimination currently being done to gay people.

Like I said, any fucked up ideology can be justified with religion. That's exactly what you are doing.


Thump, thump, thump Wayne. Whatever makes you feel better about it.

"The Bible is but one way of looking at things.

I come from the belief there are many paths up the mountain."

Chris-How do you reconcile your belief of many paths with Jesus, who tells us there is but one path, in John 14:6?

http://www.geocities.com/athens/delphi/8449/only.html

Herb

Author: Missing_kskd
Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 10:08 pm


No.

Of course it's the current theme. No getting around that.

Equality is an all or nothing affair. Either one is a bigot or they are not. 90 percent good guy, 10 percent bigot is still a bigot.

You are for discrimination, otherwise you would have no problem finding a solid solution to the discrimination currently being done to gay people.

Like I said, any fucked up ideology can be justified with religion. That's exactly what you are doing.


Thump, thump, thump Wayne. Whatever makes you feel better about it.

---------
I guess discrimination really means gay marriage. I am not for that and never have been. You need to show me in the Constitution where marriage is a right because it doesn't say that it is.When a liberal mentions equality nothing else matters but gay marriage. It really is a shame they can't understand why people would object to it. Tell me something MK: Do you think I should have the right to marry my cat? Shall we allow polygamy? I would suggest if you aren't for those two things you are as much for discrimination as I am. Its equal protection.

Thump, thump...

I don't need to show you squat.

Right on cue Herb.

I like Eugene Petersons version of John: 14:6 from his New Testament writings called The Message: Jesus said, "I am the Road, also the Truth, also the Life. No one gets to the Father apart from me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him. You're even seen him."

I love "I am the Road." That road has many journey's and only God knows each journey we are all on. Thus many paths can lead to Jesus, or God because we are all on many paths of belief, non-belief, searching, questioning, or just being. Each is a very different "Road". Thus there are many paths up the mountain. And you got to follow your road.

"No one gets to the Father apart from me."

It matters little how one spins the words of Jesus. It means what it says.

Jesus of the Bible is not lukewarm. He's also not Mr. kum-bah-yah:

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man 'against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's enemies will be those of his household.' Matthew 10:34-36

The Gospels are offensive to those who are spiritually blind. Why do you think Jesus was crucified?

Herb

Herb-

You have used that scripture so many times in defending Jesus' pro war stance. It's "THE sword" not "A sword". Big difference. Plus if Jesus is talking about an actual sword please show where in scripture he uses it?

You misread what I meant.

Without regard to whether Jesus was pro-war or anti-war, the point is that he is taking an unpopular stance. Essentially, he's saying 'Follow me and you will be hated, because the world hated me and it will hate you, as well.'

I understand your desire to make the words of Christ more acceptable to the world. 'Taking up the cross and following Him' is not easy, and doing so often makes enemies.

We weren't meant to follow a sanitized interpretation of the Bible. Jesus said what he said for a reason. And this 'many paths' nonsense is just that.

C.S. Lewis said it far better than I ever could:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say.

A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell.

You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Herb

Hey Herb, I don't know how to ask this without sounding combative - AND Chris hardly needs me to speak for him. So i'm not - but I THOUGHT Chris was saying that is you take the words of the bible literally, how can you say " Essentially, he's saying..."?

I thought your whole point, Herb, was that you didn't have to interpret anything in the Bible. Those words mean exactly what they say. And if you " interpret " some passages to mean one thing, can you not do that with other passages?

I'm asking with sincerity and not coming from a point of " Oooohh - GOTCHA! " because I think I agree with your most recent post. Just not the ones that say - paraphrasing - " You take the word of God literally at all times." I honestly may have misunderstood those posts in which you sounded like that.

So how do you reconcile those two different SOUNDING posts? Again, maybe they are not different sounding to you. But they are to me.

A couple more things; You seem to operate best in a back and white type of world. Grey area is something that you don't deem a worthy debate style. I don't think that acknowledging grey area shows weakness or lack of fortitude. It's all very clear and cut and dry with you. And I have to choose the word " all " when talking about your posts because, well, you do it to such a degree that I think it's accurate to call " all " your posts black and white. Which leads me to another question;

I'm not asking for which Church you go to or anything like that. But, what church do you go to? Kidding. Kind of. It's rare to hear about a church that preaches things on such a " black and white/literal " level. It's not unheard of. But I am curious about who is out there doing that?

Or maybe I am just assuming that you a). Even go to church. Or b). Go to a church that preaches that way. Maybe you go to a church that does promote SOME thought in the grey arena at times. But you choose not to operate that way. Even though your church does.

So again, while the questions I am asking may sound pointed and yes, you get attacked for this or that all the time around here - but I'm not doing that with that kind of heart today with you. Just asking you in as straightforward manner as possible.

So let me know. I'm curious and non-judgmental about anything you have to say on the issue.

Thanks Herb, in advance - Sean.

Chris is not a literal guy.

I am.

I'm trying to explain to him in a way in which he can relate. No change in meaning is necessary.

Herb

Well, ok. It doesn't sound like that to me - but ok. I guess we just differ on the definition of " literal " then.

What about the other part of my questions?

well, I'm gonna do the "gotcha" thing . . .

So Herb, how do YOU approach women during their periods? As I provide a link to in the past (several times) the Bible makes it clear its a no-no. If you do indeed follow the Bible literally, how do you know which women are having their periods so you can properly avoid them? Ask?

On cue.

"Give not that which is holy to the dogs, nor throw your pearls to the swine; otherwise they will trample them under their feet and then turn and attack you." Matthew 7:6

If you have problems with that, take it up with the Author.

Herb

Herb-

Further review of your passage in Matthew from a pastor named Edward Markquart.

-"Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword (or a division.)

Christ does not bring false peace. Some Old Testament prophets complained of people who say “peace, peace, where there is no peace.” (Jeremiah 6:14). What passes under the name of peace is often only a mask that masquerades and hides injustice, brutality, and a dictatorship. Some families or nations give an aura and illusion of peace simply because of the dictatorial “peaceful” rule by a despot. Jesus was not bringing a false peace, which tolerated injustice and oppression.

-“For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one's foes will be members of one's own household.”

In the first beginnings of the early church, there were enormous divisions in the family when a person converted to Christ and Christianity. That same theme continues in India today when a member of a Hindu family becomes Christian or in America today, when a member of an irreligious family becomes a follower of Christ. When someone in the family becomes a devout Christian, it can create conflict within that family. In Jesus’ time of history, there were persistent family tensions as so many Jewish people were converting to Christ. There were tensions in their synagogues and also tensions and divisions in their family. Jesus was warning his disciples what to expect when they began to follow him.

So Herb “the sword” is not an actual sword as you seem to claim thus a literal read on that passage totally misses the point Jesus is trying to make.

If I read that passage from Matthew as you have and then read other passages where Jesus says: “Love one another as I have loved you” or you can only enter the kingdom of heaven like a child, it seems to contradict or at least bring into question Jesus’ true motives.

This is no sanitized version of the bible that I read. However in Jesus’ day his words were in direct conflict with the Jewish religious leaders, the Roman government and individual households that were in tension with members beginning to follow Jesus.

Scripture demands we read it intelligently and not always literally. I believe the bible raises more questions than answers them, and that is not a bad thing.

Yeah. I wasn't doing that.

Nevermind. I'll just find something else to do.

An addendum to chickenjugglers earlier post.

Herb since you are such a black and white kind of thinker, I am surprised that you don't answer questions in that same manner.

Skep if you do indeed read Matthew 7:6 know that Jesus's words about actually throwing ones pearls to swine is allegorical.

"What about the other part of my questions?"

Fair enough, CJ.

Given the hostility to me as well as Christianity on this board, I wouldn't want to give any particular 'church' a black eye by saying that I associate with them, so it's hardly appropriate to be specific with my leanings.

Having said that, I admire many Christians of history. They include, in no particular order,

*C.S. Lewis
*Billy Graham
*Dietrich Bonhoeffer [even though Trixter insists conservatives like me are Nazis, Pastor Bonhoeffer gave his life fighting them-and I admire Bonhoeffer a great deal]
*Martin Luther
*John the Baptist
*Luis Palau

Herb

Impressive list of Christians.

It's not what I asked, but it's a good list. Great, even.

From Herb's list I will concur on CS Lewis, Bonehoeffer and Martin Luther. However Bonehoeffer is probably my personal fav of that group. Especially his writings from prison.

It's not hostility toward Christians at all Herb.

It's toward those people who would legislate their morality using their faith as a crutch. Don't care what faith it is, only that it's being used to justify law.

That's harmful and dishonest.

When others advocate harm, I get hostile as there is no reason for harm. Harming is one thing. Encouraging others to do it, dragging religion into the mix is quite another.

Stop that and the hostility stops --it's really that simple.

Being a Christian has absolutely nothing to do with it.


--And if your church does advocate these things, you are wise to keep it quiet. I will drag it through the mud.

Chris, thanks!

Herb, when you thump, expect people to get hostile if they want to find God (or not find him) in a different way from the one you're thumping about.

Being a hypocrite also invites hostility . . . but you already knew that by partipicating in the playground game you've started here. By complaing about "hostility" you're making a calculated response hoping to invite more chaos in this discussion forum.

"Don't care what faith it is, only that it's being used to justify law."

Sorry to burst your bubble, but our entire system of law has the Ten Commandments as its basis.

Like the law of gravity, you can transgress natural law, and you can transgress God's law. But there is always a penalty to pay. Just don't kill the messenger.

Nice try.

Herb

Herb I find it interesting that you call yourself the messenger so that no harm or ill will comes upon whatever you post.

I find it deceptive and ungodly. I am also discovering what others on this thread have been saying all along is that you really never do answer questions directly. Your favorite feedback seems to be this so called "messenger."

Scroll back up and you will see that I have asked several questions that have yet gone unanswered. You quote scripture freely but rarely do you add your own personal understanding thinking that scripture alone will hold all that needs to be said. If every pastor did that there would be no need for sermons.

I don’t mind you quoting scripture, however choosing select passages and then not expounding on them does two things, the credibility of scripture and the person quoting it come into question. Even if someone disagrees with your interpretation at least you reveal how you understand that scripture. From there we can at least have a healthy theological discussion. But as it stands you are just a “noisy symbol or a clanging gong.” 1 Corinthians 13:1

Herb is cuckoo. It's scary to me that people actually think that way.

I don't think so. Just because you don't agree with somebody doesn't make him that way.

Herb, I've already debunked the whole "Everything begins with the 10 commandments."

Our law evolved as we did. People existed before the time of the 10 commandments. Think about it, who wrote the Bible? That's right people did!

And before the Bible, whatever you think of our origins, there were people. And those people had to resolve their differences. The earliest form of law came from the need to address matters of value transfer. Merchants, in particular, began with a set of rules that forms the basis for common law. That common law continued to evolve in scope and forms the basis of the law we have today.

It is through common law that we get things like Habius Corpus, that our current Resident President disregarded...

Along the way, Religion played a significant role, but was not the final authority. Advances in philosophy, logic and the need to establish absolute rules for justification led to the legal system we have today as well.

In the end, it was discovered that there really can be only one common body of law. That law must be tied to known truths, and must be consistant with itself to have any real authority.

You can see this happening today with the different layers of law and treaty all working together on top of the body of common law.

Making a law, with religion as a justification, means making an arbitrary law that cannot be reconsiled with the existing body of law. We may find this law consistant in terms of logic, but we cannot find it's basis in fact, and that's the problem.

That, by the way, is a provable fact, not just some hairball conjecture on my part.

The entire body of religion is based on hearsey. This is a common law violation for what should be obvious reasons to anyone willing to accept the difference between truth and faith.

Just how many times will you bring this up. They may say it in the weekend adult bible sessions, you may be surrounded by others with similar denial, but that does not make it more true, now does it?

Preach it Doug!

Well, that's the last of it we will see for a while.

It's completely hopeless. We've got a coupla Bible Thumpers here perverting religion, to justfiy their own character issues, and leveraging the value of this forum to promote their faith at the same time.

It's disgusting, frankly. Any real person here, of faith, should be pissed to the max. Not only are they seriously misrepresenting religion, but they are taking advantage of your faith as well.

Leeches. Nothing but leeches.

The body of otherwise solid religious people is being leveraged in the same way this forum is leveraged. All to promote a worldview that advocates discrimination and ignorance.

I've zero respect for this. I've run out of tolerance as well.

There is no excuse for such behavior.

I want to know where the passages in the Bible about Dinosaurs? They DID exist!!!! Why NO mention???

Herb???
Wayner???
ANYONE???

They aren't in the Bible, Trix. There are some extremeists who might tell you the Dinos climbed the ark of Noah but not me.

Author: Kbbt
Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 12:14 pm


Well, that's the last of it we will see for a while.

It's completely hopeless. We've got a coupla Bible Thumpers here perverting religion, to justfiy their own character issues, and leveraging the value of this forum to promote their faith at the same time.

It's disgusting, frankly. Any real person here, of faith, should be pissed to the max. Not only are they seriously misrepresenting religion, but they are taking advantage of your faith as well.

Leeches. Nothing but leeches.

The body of otherwise solid religious people is being leveraged in the same way this forum is leveraged. All to promote a worldview that advocates discrimination and ignorance.

I've zero respect for this. I've run out of tolerance as well.

There is no excuse for such behavior.

--------
Should we ban Christianity?

So where is the mention??? NOTHING??? They didn't exist????
Why would God omit that???
Mention of caveman??? Why would God omit that?
Is God flawed?

Kbbt and Trix-

I'm not totally pissed at either Wayne or Herb. I'm married to a woman who grew up in the same tradition as both of these men. She knew something wasn't right growing up but couldn't put her finger on it partially because she was too young to know exactly what she was feeling.

In her mid 20s she was able to get distance from that kind of ultra-conservative fundamentalist thinking and literally take a breather from the constant put down of woman in general and wives submit attitudes.

I met her just after this and we began a wonderful friendship. She was able to see into my family tradition that there was another option to faith in God and it could manifest itself in a much more positive way.

So there is hope for Herb and Wayne in my book, however I won't hold my breath.

KSKD would have done that.

A bridge has been crossed.

KBBT could care less. Hope they topple over sooner than later, frankly.

So shall we ban Christianity?

No. Just you.

You believe in censorship don't you?

thump thump thump and pooping in the forum.

"You believe in censorship don't you?"

Yes. But just your stuff. You interfere too much. It's not that we can't handle opposing opinions, it's that your opinions are baseless and inflammatory. We get all sidetracked in exchanging ideas because you come in here and shit all over every single thread with some 2nd grade logic. And that fact that I just used the word " shit " does NOT take away from the fact that you do it. Get over it.

You think the world revolves around the fact that you have faith. And that shows diminished mental ability. It's ALL you think you can talk about. You have nothing else to offer.

We do.

Missing did.

And you are too proud and of low I.Q. to understand it. Sorry to sound mean, but it's obvious to me that that is the case. And that's gentlemanly to note it.

Please leave. Please? I mean it. Please leave. For good. Go find some other place to mess up. Please.

Not a chance. I have free speech too. You obviously do not believe in free speech unless you agree with the speech. You need to practice tolerance the way you preach it toward others.

thump thump thump and pooping all over the forum . . .

I hope that that dump felt great!


WW said>>>
You need to practice tolerance the way you preach it toward others.

Take some MORE of your own advice....

DAMN! Ignorance is bliss!

I have seen very little tolerance from you or the rest of the secular left. "Tolerance" means only one thing in your secular mind: Gay marriage. Thats it. Nothing else matters

I have seen NO tolerance from you or the rest of the Nazi RIGHT.

Why do you mention "tolerance" at all Trix? You know you only mean one thing: homosexuality. There is no other kind of tolerance with you is there?

"...the Nazi RIGHT..."

On cue.

Trixter, you really need some new talking points. For a novel approach, how about some that resemble reality? The only posts here that are against true diversity of speech are from liberals, not conservatives.

Herb

Remember, Trixter is also a Republican. He's in your party.

Trixter may indeed be registered as a Republican.

Ever heard of the term Rino?

If it walks, quacks and flies like a duck...

Herb

I find it interesting that Trix would use terms like "Nazi right" if he really were a Republican. He can't be a conservative Republican!

Talk about new talking points Herb..
You were gone for how long licking your wounds after Nov 7th came and gone and the first GD thing you talked about was Nixon??
Your as ignorant as WW....

If it smells like shit it must be shit...

REICH Herb....

Ever herd of the term "IDIOT"???

On cue.

More Trixter name-calling.

You know what happens when one slings mud.

Trix. What are you going to use for talking points when scare america is off the air?

Herbert Milhous II

Herb said>>>
You know what happens when one slings mud.

YEP! You become a neo-CONer....

For the last time because you can't read like WW! Haven't listened to AAR for clase to 6 1/2 months now because of 970am.... I listen to Stephaine Miller and Ed on Sirius.

Nice talking points from LimBLAH, Insannity and FAUXNews.....

I hear much better talking points from Rush and Fox than I ever did on the late Airhead America.

Have you noticed Herb, that Trix insults when he has no argument?

I love that WW (again) either admits he's listened to AAR or is lying. Yay!

Poop on, troll!

Those who name-call have no argument.

I've come to expect it from the hate-America first crowd. That's why scare america is belly up...Americans don't like hearing our great country slammed continually. The end result is that scare america is DOA.

Herb

They have no argument so they don't know anything but swearing and smearing. Their aim is to make this board something that liberals only need to apply. Their hate for America is downright scary to me.

Wayne, the only thing scary around here is the poop you have been smearing all over this side of the board for months.

The scary thing is the lack of security you have in your own convictions and the way you show it by your constant trash talking and swearing. It makes me wonder if you really are a woman!

Herb says:

"Those who name-call have no argument.

I've come to expect it from the hate-America first crowd."

You can't make this stuff up! Are you for real?

Wayne,

yep, 100% woman! You wanna see my C-section scar?

Oh, and by the way, I was googling your "convenience of government" discharge; it appears that it's most commonly used by the Armed Services to easily get rid of people with some sort of defect that becomes apparent after induction: mainly psycological problems.

Care to explain your discharge (not the poopy ones) in further detail?

I think his defects are perfectly clear.

Author: Mrs_merkin
Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 2:01 pm


Wayne,

yep, 100% woman! You wanna see my C-section scar?

Oh, and by the way, I was googling your "convenience of government" discharge; it appears that it's most commonly used by the Armed Services to easily get rid of people with some sort of defect that becomes apparent after induction: mainly psycological problems.

Care to explain your discharge (not the poopy ones) in further detail?

---
You don't act at all like a woman, you cuss like a man and you insult like one too. What business is my discharge of yours?

Maybe you should have a doctor take a look at that.

LOL!!!

*Plonk*