Dan, 99% of us appreciate your "hands off" approach to moderating. It has worked quite well and those that abuse the forum more or less go away eventually.

The current troll clearly doesn't care about facts and admits his only purpose here is to prevent the "liberals", whoever they are, from "taking over the board".

The line is crossed when the troll repeatedly puts words in other pdxradio.com users mouths and hurls wildly false accusations at others for no other purpose than to disrupt usage of the forum.

Today the troll had a golden opportuntity to engage in meaningful discussion with a polite and like-minded individual yet once again he showed no interest and hurled slanderous insults at the poster.

Perhaps a review is in order?

Skep -

Thank you for those kind words. Honestly, it's OK.

If said individual decides that he wants to have a logical discussion with another adult, I will be here to discuss. As I said before, I ENJOY bantering about politics, with people from both sides of the aisle.

I will only go so far however. If he chooses to deem me a "terrorist" or a supporter of terrorism, that is his call. I know differently and I would imagine that most people in here would see differently, but I can't do anything about him. All I can control is what *I* do, so I will let it go. I refuse to stoop to someone's level just to provoke and incite more, because we all know that is exactly what will happen.

You may silence me but there are hundreds that will take my place. You want this to be a hangout for only liberals. I didn't realize you were such believers in censorship.

"Hundreds"? Rush, Hannity and O'Reily still have more followers than that, but there is always hope!

IMHO, more of this approach and we will have no problems.

I sure am guilty as hell as of late. Went back through some earlier times. We can handle this guy if we keep our eye on the prize; namely, solid conversation in a nice venue. We've had some good stretches with trolls. Of course nirvana is when we have no trolls, or perhaps just a lame one or two, but when it's good it's plenty good.

If we factor out some things, it's actually decent right now, all things considered.

So, I'm factoring...

If we engage just enough to satisfy then we are left with a known element instead of a potential unknown one!

Just a thought for group consideration.

Why don't you people take a vacation from this place?

Clearly you need one

I agree with you.

We've been through this here many times before. It's all so simple: if you want the troll to go away, ignore him. Period. Don't post threads like this one or put the troll's name in a new thread or keep talking about it. Shut up about it. No action by Dan is required.

One by one people here seem to be getting the idea not to respond to the troll. Just let them get frustrated one by one as we all have. Eventually it will dwindle down. Trust me.

Andrew

mc74, how does your post contribute to the discussion?

andrew, I agree, ignoring the troll is the BEST way, but its been more than a month now and we can't seem to get everyone on board. I know we've had a few "call for action" threads (like this one) but somehow we keep failing to get a critical mass.

Maybe this time. How about it folks? Regardless of whether you find baiting the troll fun or enjoy taking on a troll tit for tat, think of the others here and ignore the troll.

Anybody else with ideas or comments, feel free to post otherwise lets go into DEEP IGNORE MODE.

Ignored.

Skep, don't run tattle to the teacher when you don't like something.

If you don't like someone's posts, just ignore them. They'll lose interest if they never get a response. After all, how much can a few words harm you.

deane, on the other hand, bullies need to be reported to the principal. nothing anyone says in an online forum bothers me personally cuz I coat myself with Pam before I sign on. Unfortunately bullies can dilute the usefulness of forums -- that is far more dangerous than an insult. Anyway, the people have spoken, so back to DEEP IGNORE MODE I go.

For what it's worth, we've made enough headway to reduce the longer term worry.

It's passing just like Andrew said it would.

Conversations are completing to a higher degree than they were a while back.

DJ..
When you were getting your face shoved into the toilet by the school bullie didn't it suck? You went running to the Principal did you not? I mean isn't that why you became a neo-CONer? to get back at the people who bullied you your whole life?
Carl Rove did......

I had a tendancy not to mouth off, so I didn't get bullied.

What a bunch of cry babies.

Hey stinky day old cockcheese, how's the Crazy Horse malt liquor? Have you held anyone up lately?

"Conversations are completing to a higher degree than they were a while back."

Uh-huh.

They are.

Factor out this crap and it's happening where before threads just never reached any kind of rational state.

They have been improving some, and usually start out fairly decent. After a while, they have been drifting into squabbles with Wayne (formerly with Herb), and at that point it makes no sense to return to the thread which I don't.

I admire your strength to do that, you're a better man than I, and I hope you'll start returning to said threads...we're trying real hard to avoid the squab(bles).

I do believe that Pete has it in his head that all native americans are malt liquor, 7-11 robbing criminals.

he is the true definition of a racist.

This place is not what it used to be. I dont mind the arguing over politics but it seems that pete and others have turned to personal attacks on ones heritage and other beliefs.

If you guys cant discuss politics without this crap then why even log in?

I have to agree with Mc74. The personal attacks are completely unnecessary, and IMO, certainly make the person doing the attacks looks pretty lacking. It renders there other opinions rather meaningless.

This place has NEVER been what it "used to be!"

We've always had personal attacks here - I too think they are unnecessary, on both sides. But let's not pretend that only one side has ever engaged in them here.

Andrew

Actually the other opinions and facts presented have nothing to do with the personal attacks. They are not related at all, where meaning is concerned.

By Mc74 on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 2:40 pm:
This place is not what it used to be. I dont mind the arguing over politics but it seems that pete and others have turned to personal attacks on ones heritage and other beliefs.

If you guys cant discuss politics without this crap then why even log in?


I don't think its possible for liberals to post here without their personal attacks. If any action needs to be taken its to stop that and also the foul language. In every other site I visit but here it is not allowed.

Tell me personal attacks like this one are necessary:

Wayner ignorantly said>>>

ToeCheese,

you wrote, "I do believe that Pete has it in his head that all native americans are malt liquor, 7-11 robbing criminals."

All? Nope, just you.

I like good tequila, vintage Port & Champagne, and I don't need to hold up 7-11 because we have a really successful casino.

I do like the sugar-free Slurpees at the Sev, though.

What Tribe are you enrolled in? Oh yeah, you won't answer.

Again, you add absolutely nothing to the (any) conversation.

pete is a racist, whether or not you want to belive that is a different story. If Wayne had said that then you all would want him banned

Sorry DJ, I believe it to be the truth that WW is truly ignorant.

He cannot follow or understand the most basic principles of internet discussion and presenting factual info to support his statements.

Time and time again he shows his ignorance of current affairs, facts, and common sense.

Of course he is entitled to his beliefs and opinions, and his familiararity of scripture is good (but not anything like Chris T's thoughtful insights) but in today's world, I believe yes, he is ignorant of many things.

And if anybody's a racist here, it's Wayner by about 500 miles. Gays, Muslims, Jews, nice black women, Democrats, Commies, Pinkos, Trotsky-ites (sp), SDA, Mormons, wiccans, and what-have-you, he's just waiting for his God to sort 'em all out at the gate and send 'em to the warm place.

RIP a racist? I doubt it.

My friend Dan started this site as a tribute to Portland radio. The "politics" thread section certainly has grown (and, in the process), become a rather heated discussion board. Only Dan will decide whether this is critical to the future of the site!).

With that having been said, as soon as you start censoring viewpoints (as ridiculous as the posts may seem), then you are defeating the purpose.

The "Politics & Other Things" section has taken on a life on its own. Frankly, the "other things" section is more interesting to me, and the politics section seems to be dominated by six or seven people.

It's Dan's call. He is the domain-in-charge guy. I like the discussion of Portland radio, and other Portland/Oregon "americana" items. Perhaps after the election, the board will revert back to some sort of normalcy.

In the meantime, Dan should be congratulated as providing one of the premier media/politics/other things board in the country!
Cudos Dan!

I bring up the "malt liquor" and "hold anyone up lately" because a while back, Cochise made some sort of remark about Jews (I believe) and it had something to do with a stereotype that led him to say what he said. Maybe someone else here (Skep) can refresh my memory, as I don't have the strength to search for it on my own. Cochise had told us that he was half Black and half Native American at one point. As a retort to his ridiculous post and to prove how dumb stereotypes can be, I used an equally stupid comment designed to mirror how stupid his comment was. I asked him if he gets drunk on malt liquor, and I used the brand "Crazy Horse" because I know that brand upsets some Native Americans (as it should). I also asked him if he's held anyone up lately. We all know the stereotypes of drunk Indians and Blacks being criminals, and I was using that as an example of how dumb his post was (in other words, I came back with the same logic, just disparaging in a different way that was personal to him). I've said this several times in response to his stupid posts, hoping for an answer to the original question he was called out on, but I've yet to see an answer, and that's the reason I posted what I did.

But, I'm not a racist. I like everyone if you're a nice person, regardless of your race or any other difference.

Rein, all of that crap is unnecessary.

I might suggest that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

I'm not so sure.

One element to this is some personal growth. If we don't interact with one another on a real basis, we don't benefit from the interaction.

Frankly, I enjoy a place where inhibitions in this regard are low! I've been better for the experience. Just need to keep perspective, that's all.

My primary goal was to expose the hypcorisy of what Cochise said, and I think I accomplished that. End of story.

I have seen plenty of hypocricy that has come from the left who preach free speech but don't practice it at all. Dan deserves credit for at least realizing that we do have free speech in this country.

Wayne, you wouldn't know hypocrisy if you stepped in it, but everyone else can sure as hell smell it!

You are guilty of it too.You think you are so much smarter than the rest of us but you are not.

I know you are but what am I?


P.U.

Kids!!!!If you don't behave I'll have to reach back there with my fly swatter and smack you!

Anyone ever have there parents do that when they were younger and drove around in some land yacht? Or ride in the back window like some huge ass bobble head kid? I remember standing between the front seats all of the time and one time got pushed on the shifter on the freeway putting it into reverse!!! Then I was the bobble head boy on the inside of the front window! LOL

Those were the days......

My mom had perfect aim from the front seat while driving (that eyes in the back of the head thing WAS true!).

She used a hairbrush once, and it broke and she never did it again.

Plus, we were the only kids I knew that were REQUIRED to wear seat belts waaay back then!

That's another thread right there. In the car with parents stories!!

We can tell 'em from both perspectives.

cochise took a generalized swipe at most of us "you people" and something about us being jews. when asked to name them, cochise dodged the question, and has been dodging ever since.

the other troll is using misinformation in hope of killing the usefulness of this forum as an open venue.

if others posters are engaging in personal attacks, they should be pointed out (as deane did in his example).

Mrs. M

Why don't you lead off a new thread on "In the car with parents stories!!

Her thread title is better.

But it was Joa's idea...and a good one!

Na....you take the bows for this one.....your title is awesome. My political jokes and to hot for TV commercials are tanking....guess nobody has time for humor these days......very important you know...humor....without it we would all go nuts....well nuttier...is that a word...?

Sign on door to mental ward:

"Please do not disturb any further."

Shhhhh...I'm trying to sleep here!

DJ said>>>
Tell me personal attacks like this one are necessary:

Wayner ignorantly said>>>


Come the F on DJ! You have to admit that sometimes his statements are ignorant.... As are mine. To call me out is ONLY fair.....

Thats a statement that Dan needs to address. We need more respect in this forum. Calling someone ignorant is not very respectful. I wish there were rules of respect here like there are in Hannity's forum.

>>>"Thats a statement that Dan needs to address."

I don't think you want Dan into this. Once a forum begins to be moderated, everyone becomes afraid to post anything. That ends it.

There is no reason this can't be self policed.

Thats a good idea but how do we do that? Some will continue to smear and swear no matter what.

Start by ignoring personal attacks. Don't respond. When the attacker gets no response, he will soon become tired of it.

Deane: Agreed!

Re: Ignorance, Bigotry, Foolish, etc...

I really don't agree. If one's posting record shows these things, it's actually a lack of respect, more in line with disregard for another, to not be honest about them.

In this, our behaviour changes and we all improve. It's a bit of social pressure and accountability in play that's perfectly healthy.

Essentially, we need it to be real enough for people to have some incentive to consider their actions and views accordingly.

Really what you are looking for Wayne, is a venue where you can say what you want and not feel bad about it. This is really up to you. No ruleset is going to make you feel one way or another. You don't accomplish this by changing PDXRadio. You do it by changing some things about your own self.

Again, your feelings are yours alone. You control them, it's all your call. If you feel bad, it's because you think you should feel bad, not what another said to you. Have some self respect in this regard! It will do you some real good.

Put another way: There is nothing that anyone here can write that can actually make you do anything, including feel. Quit blaming others for your own feelings and start taking a hard look at just why you feel them.

I am not blaming anybody for what I feel What I blame people for is the lack of respect for anyone they don't agree with. There should be some way we can express ourselves freely without fear of being smeared or sworn at. All that does is prove my point.

Well, you've often confused smearing with simply calling a person out on their behavior.

As for the swearing, it was a little outta control on my end. Sorry about that. Some swearing is perfectly acceptable however. We are all big kids after all. I'm perfectly ok with pulling it back a little --too much is too much. But I'm not ok with not doing it at all.

Besides, there really is no way to stop it. We can filter the words and people will just write the closest thing, or do it by implication. And, like it or not, there are some things in this world that are not properly expressed without some profanity involved.

A smear is when somebody devalues you without any real justification or context.

Calling someone out on their behavior or opinion is simply that.

Either you see it as valid or you don't --or you simply don't care. How you feel about it is up to you and you alone. What you do about it is also up to you and you alone.

If you see it as not valid, you can and should support that and try to keep the high ground. If you are right, you will almost always prevail. And if you don't, but your view is defensible, why feel bad about it? I wouldn't. I don't know anybody that would!

However, if you are wrong, it's really easy to just call it a smear rather than consider the real implications. This is a cop-out, a blame game that only does you harm in the end.

As for the respect bit, that's something you earn. This is another thing you can't really blame people for not granting. They've got to see something worthy of their respect or they are fools to grant it.

Want more respect? Listen to your peers then! It's a two way street in that regard. We come here on the net with no entitlements period. The credence we end up with and respect earned is a direct result of our actions.

There is the case where others are not granting these things because they have their own problems. If you recognize this, you should not feel badly over their lack of respect and or unwillingness to grant you credence. That's their deal, not yours.

Sorry, but that's just how it is.

Wayne, your general lack of respect from almost every poster here is not because they don't agree with you. It's because your statements themselves lack credibility. Until that changes, you will continue to face resistance, regardless of your positions.

That's it exactly.

Sorry all, this is relevant discussion in my book. Not troll feeding. I personally will not let it get outta control. If there is any chance at Wayne getting this, it needs to be communicated from time to time.

Want more respect? Listen to your peers then! It's a two way street in that regard. We come here on the net with no entitlements period. The credence we end up with and respect earned is a direct result of our actions.


Do I want more respect? You really mean only one thing don't you, Missing? Agree?? Can't you and the others be honest for once in your lives? Neither you nor Pete seem to care about any dialouge with anybody unless we totally agree. You have the notion that if you swear and smear often it will wear me down to the point where I will just throw up my hands and agree. What kind of a world would this be if everybody agreed with everybody else on everything? I know I wouldn't like it. Why are you so insistant on my blind agreement with you?

(bites it hard and waits....)

This too will pass.

Wayner said>>>
I wish there were rules of respect here like there are in Hannity's forum.

Isn't this an Oxymoron?

There is a ton of more respect in Hannity's forum than there is here. At least over there they have some guidelines.

But how is it on LYING and MISinformation????
I sure it's full of that!!!! What are the guidelines on bullshit??
Insannity is full of S so much I think his eyes are brown.....

What I see in Hannity's forum is more respect than there is here. What I don't see there is swearing! There are plenty from the left who join that forum. Even the leftists have more respect there than they do here. You need to visit there sometime. Not everyone agrees with Sean Hannity. I of course think he is right on.

RIGHT on.......
Respect is in the eye of the beholder....

Wayne, please return to Hannity's forum and stay there. Preferably permanently.

It would be much appreciated by both forums.

Maybe Dan will give you your money back.

Oh wait, you've never donated a dime here.

Mrs. Merkin, that's the kind of post that isn't necessary. It's a personal attack.

It is a bit annoying for him to come here and just whine about change.

There is nothing wrong with this forum, nor most of the people in it.

It all comes down to Wayner wanting to come here and post crap and not have to feel bad about it. It sucks to find people calling you a bigot. It sucks worse to see them support it in a solid way.

Sucks worst of all to have people just let you be a bigot.

If he feels bad and needs more respect, it's his deal, not the forum rules or anyone here. He can choose to not feel bad about it and he can choose to change behaviour or perhaps just not continue to flaunt it.

It's all about Wayne and the futility of the whole affair. One does not go around and change the rules because they have a problem. That's all kind of worthless, which is what Mrs M was getting at.

One other thing. Getting called something is a personal attack, but there are two kinds: (At least)

one is where it's done without support or real justification --that's the smear

another is where people call it like they see it and support it --that's being real.

Put simply: Act like an ass, get called an ass.

Sometimes life is tough. There are plenty of Disneyland type forums to visit where people are not real about things. It's good entertainment, it's largely useless.

No solid justification has been brought to the table that warrants changing PDXRadio into one of those forums. The only person really calling for it is Wayne and he's doing it because he does not like the reaction here.

He's got plenty of solid options, no need to nuke this place for his personal benefit.


What do you think would happen if he did this on a public street! Would get get the nice respect he wants to have here? I think not!

There are no entitlements in life where these things are concerned. He needs to see that and act accordingly, not blame the venue or the other people in it for his own damm issues.

Missing, another well thought out post.

Yes, Wayne does post some things that are not supportable by facts. He also occassionaly ties things to religion as support, which people don't care for.

What I would suggest is that the responses are frequently not respectfully worded arguements to the contrary, but rather an attack on Wayne personally or his religion. That's what starts the vicious cycle. Everyone's credibility goes into the dumper at that point.

Many of those who so strongly disagree with Wayne are people who's view point I can strongly disagree with. It's doesn't, however, make sense for me to attack that person a being an idiot who should go away.

I disagree with many of the viewpoints of both you and Andrew, but I can respect the fact that you are both deep thinkers and try to make worthwhile points. If I started calling you names because of that difference, we wouldn't get far.

Yes it does.

Sorry, but I'm not really willing to back down on that point.

I've agreed to tone it down for the greater good. This is defensible, I'm ok with that. I've also been called on the carpet for excessive profanity. Also good and defensible. I'm ok with pulling back in that regard too.

Why did I make these decisions? Because I didn't like the reaction I was getting from my behavior. So, I exercised the same options Wayner has. I'm not gonna flaunt the profanity, and I'm not going to pollute the forum with futile attempts at some advocacy for an idiot.

It's not hard.

Wayne has posted a lotta garbage that is not defensible and contradictory. Idiots do that.

Wayne has asked for more respect after expressing his blatent bigotry and complete disregard for his fellow peers rights.

Sorry, but that's just not gonna cut it where being civil is concerned. It's not ok to just hammer the point home all day long because it harms all of us.

Wayne is indignant because of Wayne! Nobody else.

Truth is, I want him to feel as bad as is possible without harming the venue here in general. To do less is actually a dis-service to him in that I would be enabling harmful behavior.

We continue to need some balance, but it's for our mutual benefit, not his.

---and we've done the name calling bit too. Both of us. Got over it and are moving on. In this, we have exercised again the same options I've laid out here for Wayner.

It's his choice to endure the pain.

I don't want to endure the pain. But I appreciate what you said otherwise. We can make our points effectivly without insults or profanity.

What do you think would happen if he did this on a public street! Would get get the nice respect he wants to have here? I think not!

I have often spoken my views in public and believe me I have gotten much more respect than I have ever gotten here. I do appreciate your efforts to calm down Missing! I will try to do the same.

Note: I didn't say without profanity dammit! I said less overall, there is a difference.

To be clear calling bigot is not an inappropriate insult if it's supportable. (And it is, given what has been posted to date.)

"I don't want to endure the pain"

"I have often spoken my views in public and believe me I have gotten much more respect than I have ever gotten here"


Then why do you stay here?

Because I am the only conservative that ever posts here and you want this forum to be a hangout for only people you agree with. Do I have the right to disagree?

You're not a conservative, you are an ignorant ass.

"I am the only conservative that ever posts here and you want this forum to be a hangout for only people you agree with"

Are you serious?

Wow!

Nobody else who is a conservative will post here and its because Pete doesn't want them around. He and the rest can't help but smear them.

There are several conservatives who post here, and I welcome their input.

However, I'd prefer the idiots (you) go somewhere else.

"Nobody else who is a conservative will post here and its because Pete doesn't want them around. He and the rest can't help but smear them."

I have yet to have Pete, or anyone else in here, smear me.

I am conservative ... ok, moderate. A registered Republican.

Pete and Trixter and Ms. Merkin and KSKD and everyone else ... all they want is to have INTELLIGENT conversation with others, conservative OR liberal. That's all ANY of us want. We ALL have our viewpoints, and we ALL are willing to discuss them. Most all of us in here are capable of self-thought and can use logic and reasoning.

Your idea of logic and reasoning is this:

"Well if you don't vote conservative, you support terrorists."

"If you support gay rights, you are a liberal and want all conservatives out of this forum."

"If you don't support Bush and the Iraq war, you want the terrorists to win and attack our country again."

That's not logic and reason. That's you showing an incapability to use logic and reason. An incapability, or unwillingness ... I am not sure which.

Some are willing obviously to trade punches with you, the proverbial one-armed man .. most of us won't stoop to that level. When you show a willingness to use logic and reason, I will continue to debate with you. Until then, you're on your own, pal.

Don't think you are the ONLY conservative in here because you aren't. Not even close.

"I have often spoken my views in public and believe me I have gotten much more respect than I have ever gotten here."

Of course you are going to get more respect ... when you are speaking in revival tents and at Klan rallies.

Hey guys, just a reminder that I have asked you all to treat each other fairly on Friday as you celebrate the fact I served in Vietnam (the liberal) as did Nwokie (the conservative).

We both lost friends who died for the right to have this forum and our right to come away from the war with a different viewpoint.

I certainly applaud you for your service.

Round and round you people go....

anyhow, you all may no agree with eachother but why do you have to turn to calling people names?

How do you expect anyone to take your beliefs seriously when you are insulting them all the time?

Do I really have to be the voice of reason on this damn thing?

"How do you expect anyone to take your beliefs seriously when you are insulting them all the time?"

The question I have is, how am I supposed to take these beliefs seriously considering the source and his (lack of) logic?

No matter how much you polish a turd, guess what folks it's still a turd.

and Radioblogman and Nwokie, I personally thank you for your service to our country. I thank ALL the service men and women ... especially you guys and the folks in the current situation in Iraq and Afghanistan, where you honestly aren't receiving the support you deserve from the administration back here in the United States.

Ok so dont take him seriously, all you are going to accomplish by name calling is a fight.

Trust me, I used to go round and round with people here (namely Trixter). I have been guilty of it as well but I took a little vacation from this place and a near death experience ( long story) has changed my views of him.

gone are the days of name calling, now its just usefull arguing...

I thank all of them from the bottom of MY AMERICAN heart. They were sent to do what they were told even if the jokers running the operation don't have a clue to what they are doing......
If you were ACTUALLY seeing what is going on in the Pentagon and the White House you would be appalled! Your being sold out! Or should I say SOULed out!
Keep fighting the good fight and let's hope someone in Washington pulls their head out of their ass and gets you guys home to DEFEND America.....

No service member since WWII has had the full support from the government. We have all been sent into battle wihout the proper equipment because the money has gone to the big cats who supported each president who put us there and not to what we troops needed to win.

Two points to Brianl for giving the Turd answer!

Discuss.

I'm waiting for wayne's response to BrianL's posts. He asked in a respectable manner.

I hope Wayne digests these comments and consider the comments by his peers Deane and Chris, who have also tried to educate him.

Rule of the thumb: If you don't have a link, don't guess. This apples to everyone.

The question I have for the rest of you is can I support our troops and Bush too? To some of you the answer is apparently no.

You can support whatever you please just don't put things on the table that are NOT factual. You say things that are so obsurd and totally made up that you lose credibility Wayne.
If you want to support DUHbya and the troops that 100% cool. But on the other hand can WE not support DUHbya and support the troops??? Can WE NOT want another kid to die in Iraq and want them out without you neo-CONers yelling "CUT AND RUN"???

Yes, you can support the troops and the prez. No Prob.

Any comments re: brianl, deane, chris et al?

Totally!

In fact, it's really tough to link the troops to the President. He's in charge, they are doing what they are told. As long as they try very hard to do it, they've done nothing wrong no matter how it all turns out.

I don't know Wayne, nor do I agree with much he has to say, but this board thrives by including his views. Dan is smart enough to not censor him, despite his "out of the box" comments. So, Wayne, keep on doing what you do...people will react or not. I've also noticed your occasional views on the "radio" side. If you are a fan of radio, you can't be all bad!

Thank you, Paul. At least somebody respects me.

The troops should be respected no matter what. This is a given. Anybody who doesn't respect the troops is an idiot. The reason why, is the troops are at the mercy of their decision makers. The troops do what they are told. The troops are not responsible for policy, they are responsible for implementation. It's the decision makers who I don't agree with, and I'm sure I stand similar to a majority of fellow Americans.

"despite his "out of the box" comments"

one does wonder how well "out of box" comments would go down on the other side a dozen times a day?

Abe Lincoln once said and I paraphrase: It is not so much that you have God on your side, but it is more important that you are on God's side.

From a Jim Wallis blog this evening: “When Democrats can run authentically as persons of faith, they can beat back the idolatrous claims of the Religious Right that God is only on their side. And when Democrats take a more morally sensible and centrist position on issues like abortion, they do better than liberal Democrats have done. These results are bad news for the “religious fundamentalists" who have far too much influence in the Republican Party, AND for the “secular fundamentalists” who have far too much influence in the Democratic Party. But it is good news for the majority of Americans who are alienated by the political extremes of right and left and are hungry for a new “moral center” for our public life.”

To me the war in Iraq is immoral. What is also immoral to me is the 9000 who died today due to HIV/AIDs. 30,000 children died from preventative starvation and disease. And even though Deane disputes the recent information about 600,000 Iraqi’s or more dead because of the war, I see those numbers not so much as a shocking statistic but who they were. More than likely women and children whom are most often the biggest causalities in war.

So just how do I support the troops without supporting the war or this president? I wish I had an answer that would satisfy even me.

I support good moral decisions that make a difference and not divisiveness.

Wayner said>>>
Thank you, Paul. At least somebody respects me.

How about the Libs here? Do YOU Wayner respect them? How about Atheists? How about AMERICANS that want to pull out of Iraq???
Where is YOUR respect there?

Hey Chris, can't you just wish the troops the best and give them the best to work with and call it good?

By Trixter on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 7:56 pm:
Wayner said>>>
Thank you, Paul. At least somebody respects me.

How about the Libs here? Do YOU Wayner respect them? How about Atheists? How about AMERICANS that want to pull out of Iraq???
Where is YOUR respect there


I fear that even if I agreed with all of that you still would disrespect me.

Yes Doug I can and I have. On our morning radio show we have talked about what the community of Coos Bay has been doing sending over special care packages to our troops.

What I want to clarify clearly is in supporting or respecting our troops for the work they do, is no indication I am in anyway supporting this war or this president's decisions to go to war.

I think it's a loaded question personally because it automatically makes assumptions on who I am truly supporting.

I apologize Doug if my answer couldn't be summed up in ten second sound bite.

Contrary to popular ignorant belief, IT IS possible to support the troops and NOT support the war. Those that say otherwise are trying to dumb you down.