Such FRAKING HYPOCRITES:

quote:

The leader of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals, a vocal opponent of same-sex marriage, resigned Thursday after being accused of paying for sex with a man in monthly trysts over the past three years.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4307105.html


I

I'm not buying that one just yet.

Um, it's true, ChickenJuggler. The creepy Bible-thumper was caught juggling some balls NOT belonging to him.

Get it, juggle?

If it is true, then it will be pretty big. But something doesn't sit right. I'm a skeptic about stuff like this.

Let's say it's true for a moment. To take down Dobson and others who are going out of their way to stand by him will be a VERY large blow. In a sympathetic way, I hope it's not true. Not because of what the accused will have done - but it will look bad for the people who DO have it right ( the ones that have and show compassion and, well, are just better people ) and they will have to deal with being lumped into a, you know, guilt by association or something. You know what I'm trying to say?

But make no mistake, if all these things that are done in the darkness are being brought to the light, well, it just may renew my faith in God. Because THAT would be justice.

So to speak.

This is certainly a wait and see thing. Damaging for sure even if the allegations prove to be bogus.

Their needs to be clear evidence and not just he said he said.

I would like to know the name of the individual. I don't trust many of the people on TBN if thats who it is. I recognize quite a few pastors but he didn't look very familiar. I am sure none of you have ever fooled around have you?

By Chris_taylor on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 8:18 pm:
This is certainly a wait and see thing. Damaging for sure even if the allegations prove to be bogus.

Their needs to be clear evidence and not just he said he said.


You are so right. Why is it that people here love to convict somebody without any fair trial? Someday they may be faced with that situation!

Wayne said - "I would like to know the name of the individual. I don't trust many of the people on TBN if thats who it is. I recognize quite a few pastors but he didn't look very familiar. I am sure none of you have ever fooled around have you?"

People. Don't bite on that one. I know, I know. It's a doozie. But it is NOTHING but bait. Don't fall for it.

OW! OW! My tongue!

No doubt God is FURIOUS at the people who claim to be speaking for Him. He'd let an agnostic person like me in Heaven long before he'd let Bible thumpers cramming their will down our throats in.

Wayne, let this be a lesson to you. Keep your views on religion between you and your God. Mere men cannot be trusted to even convey the words of God. If God has something to say to non-believers, he'll tell us himeslf.

I have a couple of other thoughts. If Haggard is found to have had sex with another man while preaching against same-sex marriage and homosexuality, yes hypocrisy rules. Then he should try and make things right. First with his wife and family, with his congregation and with God.

Forgiveness is a powerful thing. If Haggard owns up to his mistake and makes things right he'll get a ton of respect from me. If he continues to deny in the face of strong evidence then his credibility is lost with me.

If the evidence is weak and this is some form of vengeance then his name should be cleared and hopefully all things restored to where they need to be.

By Skeptical on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 9:46 pm:
No doubt God is FURIOUS at the people who claim to be speaking for Him. He'd let an agnostic person like me in Heaven long before he'd let Bible thumpers cramming their will down our throats in.

Wayne, let this be a lesson to you. Keep your views on religion between you and your God. Mere men cannot be trusted to even convey the words of God. If God has something to say to non-believers, he'll tell us himeslf.


You might be able to keep me quiet but I just know someone else will take my place.I bet someone else might be less patient than me if you can imagine that. Let me add that men will let you down. But men aren't God. We all fail. Its a shame that people do things like that. But remember that they will be judged more strictly before God than us too.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Chickenjuggler on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 8:38 pm:
Wayne said - "I would like to know the name of the individual. I don't trust many of the people on TBN if thats who it is. I recognize quite a few pastors but he didn't look very familiar. I am sure none of you have ever fooled around have you?"

People. Don't bite on that one. I know, I know. It's a doozie. But it is NOTHING but bait. Don't fall for it.


I still want to know. people like that will always let us down. Remember they are human. I want to know who it is and if he is sorry for what he did. I had a former pastor leave his wife for a younger woman and he was a wonderful man. It can happen to the best of us. But none of us is perfect.

"I am sure none of you have ever fooled around have you?"

Uh, no. Never. Straight or gay.

Oh wait, does that include watching? Or just after marriage?


Hey, Skep, I'm not sure "Will" is the only thing these bible (t)humpers are cramming down throats.

Acccckkkkkkk! Ooops, just a hairball, folks!




And my apologies to anyone named Will (or Willie).

a "will" is what they call the, ahem, you know, IT!

ww sez: "You might be able to keep me quiet"

WHAT? We're getting close??!! OK! Hush-hush now.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4597813

Haggard admits some indiscretions

The New Life Church minister who has temporarily taken over for accused leader Ted Haggard stated in an e-mail to parishoners late Thursday night that Haggard confessed to some indiscretions alleged by a homosexual prostitute.

The e-mail from Pastor Ross Parsley, which went out at 11 p.m., stated, "It is important for you to know that he (Haggard) confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true.

I had never heard of Haggard before. I would say its another attempt by the liberal media to disgrace evangel Christians and to keep them home on election day. The Foley scandal tried to do the same thing but that didn't work.Like I said nobody is perfect. I have no idea what Haggard's beliefs are. Is he on TBN? I stay away from that. I don't trust anybody there exect Jay Sekulow. Not everybody who is conservative is born again.

"he (Haggard) confessed to the overseers that some of the accusations against him are true"

There we go people. A first class hypocrite. Scum of the Earth.

Boy, I did not believe it. But that drive-thru-interview, with his WIFE right next to him, in the car, answering questions from a TV reporter, had to be about the funniest thing I have seen in a long time. It's so ripe for parody. It's legendary. I mean, to be his wife, trapped in a car, while the reporter reaches over you to ask your gay hausband how he knew to buy meth from a male prostitute, priceless.

" I did not have sexual relations with that man! " I was trying to buy meth fro a gay male prostitute my hotel referred to me. But I threw it away. 27 times.

I have done a full 180 on this and now believe with each denial, more truth will come out and he'll just end it. Massively disgraceful. Tragic. But needed.

The Evangelicals are doing plenty on their own to embarass and discredit themselves without any media whatsover. Last time I checked, the media doesn't make people use meth and engage in gay sex.

I don't know, man. Watched any Adult Swim programming lately?

Wow.

Totally hot.

By Reinstatepete on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 12:45 pm:
The Evangelicals are doing plenty on their own to embarass and discredit themselves without any media whatsover. Last time I checked, the media doesn't make people use meth and engage in gay sex.


you are far from perfect, Pete. Unless you have lived a life of perfection you need to be careful of the stones that you throw. We all are sinners. Thats the ugly truth. I still want to know who Haggard is. I have never heard of him. What qualifies him as a "top evangelist?" Just because he is a conservative? Not all conservatives are Christian!

You know what Wayne, I've NEVER claimed to be perfect. But those that do, when they fall, they get nailed hard! As they should!

Correct. I have never strayed from my wife, bought a big bag of crystal meth and had HOT GAY BUTT SEX with a $10-dollar male prostitute in a cheap hotel while my loving Republican wife was trying to put my FIVE children to bed back home in the suburbs.

Correct.

I like girls, so I'm a Democrat.

By Reinstatepete on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 1:32 pm:
You know what Wayne, I've NEVER claimed to be perfect. But those that do, when they fall, they get nailed hard! As they should!


those that are in authority will be judged more strictly. Thats what James says in chapter one verse 3. Those who fall who are pastors should be judged like that. I want to know if Ted is found guilty will he apologize or not? I have noticed his response sounds very similar to Bill Clinton's have you? "I did not have sex with that man!"

I had the scripture backwords, it should be James chapter 3 verse one. See I do acknowledge a mistake!

Here's the thing Wayne, I have a real problem with people like you wanting to run around thumping your bible in everyone's faces like you think you have all the answers. I read your posts in the conversation about Christmas and you showed me your hand in a big way. You are waging a war on secularism. I really don't know how much more evidence you need. "Christian politicans" and "Christian" leader like this one seem to be coming out of the woodwork every day lately. This guy represents you and your views like it or not. You religous people go around telling us Jesus is the way and how we all need to be Christian and you CAN'T even keep your OWN house in order and then you want forgiveness. If you and yours are going to go around telling us religion is the way, you aren't allowed to make a mistake as far as I am concerned. What's more, if you are right and this is the way, you shouldn't make a mistake. When you Christians have your house in order THEN maybe I will listen to what you have to say on your vision of society.

The guy doesn't represent me. I have no idea who Haggard is or what his theological views are. Until I find out what they are how do I know he isn't a wolf in sheep's clothing? I don't need to tell you there are plenty of them around. You see there are many preachers out there who rightfully so turn off the world. I have seen personally a former minister at my church who admitted to having an affair. He was the minister of music and he had to leave. The thing is people in authority who sin like that will be held more accountable than the rest of us. I don't really care much for some of those preachers with 14,000 member congregations. What I have seen is too often those preachers start teaching stuff that just doesn't jive with what the Bible teaches. I am at a church now that has a pastor that I respect a lot. I am sure he will comment about the matter.

My point in bringing up the war on Christmas is not to convert anybody. It merely is an effort to make people aware that some secularists are trying to eliminate any refrence to Christ from a school and its gotten so bad that some stores won't allow its workers to say "merry Christmas" to its employees. The whole movement is politically correct motivated. Can we agree that there is way too much of that in America? Why do we need so much PC that we can't have any Christian expression in public? We need to be fair here. In the public square we have no problem with a minorah or a crescent but not a manger! Somehow its only Christianity that violates church and state separation.

I am sorry if I came across like I was trying to convert you. I assure you that wasn't my intent at all. What I want to know is do I have to keep totally silent? Is that the only way I can keep from "forcing my views" on anyone?

"I still want to know who Haggard is.
I have never heard of him.
What qualifies him as a "top evangelist?"

"The guy doesn't represent me."

Actually he does. I believe Waynes's church is a proud member of the National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), "the largest evangelical group in America."

http://www.tedhaggard.com

Pastor Ted Haggard is (was) the president of the 30 million-member National Association of Evangelicals (NAE), the largest evangelical group in America.

He is also founder and senior pastor of the 14,000-member New Life Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado. He formed and serves as the president of both the Association of Life-Giving Churches, a network of local churches, and worldprayerteam.org, the only real-time global prayer network.

Pastor Ted has been interviewed by Barbara Walters, Tom Brokaw, Bill O’Reilly, Chris Matthews, and more.

Time included Pastor Ted in their list of the 25 Most Influential Evangelicals in America. Harper’s says, “No pastor in America holds more sway over the political direction of evangelicalism than does Pastor Ted.”

He graduated from Oral Roberts University in 1978 and has received two honorary Doctor of Divinity degrees. He served as the American Vice-President for World Missions for Jesus, a German missions organization, and served as an Associate Pastor at Bethany World Prayer Center in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, which helped him plant New Life Church in 1985. Haggard and his wife, Gayle, have five children.

New Life Church
http://www.newlifechurch.org/
http://www.newlifechurch.org/nlcpressrelease110206.pdf

New Life Church is a 14,000 member church in Colorado Springs, (previously) led by
Pastor Ted Haggard.

National Association of Evangelicals
http://www.nae.net/

Yesterday, National Association of Evangelicals President Ted Haggard submitted his resignation from NAE leadership.

Here's some recent headlines, too:

Bush ally quits evangelical post in gay scandal

"ONE of America's most prominent evangelical pastors has resigned from a national leadership post after allegations he regularly visited a male prostitute.

...Pastor Ted Haggard, who runs one of the largest churches in the US, the New Life Church in Colorado Springs, had paid him for sex about once a month for the past three years."

Sidney Australia Newspaper

and:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4597813

This afternoon, Focus on the Family founder James C. Dobson released a statement about the accusations, and Haggard's admissions.

"All of us at Focus on the Family are heartsick over the allegation, not yet confirmed, that Ted has had a private life with a homosexual for several years. We will await the outcome of this story, but the possibility that an illicit relationship has occurred is alarming to us and to millions of others," the statement read.

It went on to say: "Ted has been my close friend and colleague for many years...He will continue to be my friend even if the worst allegations prove accurate. Nevertheless sexual sin, whether heterosexual or homosexual, has serious consequences and we are extremely concerned for Ted, his family and his church."

In a press briefing today, White House spokesman Tony Fratto confirmed that Haggard had been to the White House several times but said the allegations shouldn't affect how other evangelicals will vote in Tuesday's election...

blah, blah, blah...

All this is meant to take our eye off the ball. As long as the politicos attempt and succeed to mainipulate the public, we are in trouble. Ignore what doesn't matter. Pay attention to what does. Will our nation succeed or fail based on a couple of elected officials who used poor personal judgement? I think not.

Please vote based on what is important...war, peace, economy, personal freedom. Don't vote on some shortcomings of a very few men who made some immoral personal decisions. Hate to simplifiy it, but are we not losing sight of what is truely important?

Well said and I agree. Why make this election about some man's shortcomings? We should be voting about issues. Which party will better handle the US economy? Do the Democrats care about any "moral value" other than our pocketbook and our votes?

Could it get any better than this? This is the guy who tells Bush what to think! Pathetic boys & girls...Just pathetic

Nice work Mrs. M.

The added bonus is that we just found out that the troll is even clueless about who's who in his own Church.

to expand on paul's comment again, generally such a thing makes sense, but we're not talking about a botched color selection for a car here. This is a gentleman who used his considerable influence to dictate other people's way of life. Such top-level hypocricy shouldn't be lightly dismissed, even if its the actions of a few -- SEND A MESSAGE!

After the election they can regroup and try a more honest approach to their message. Now is the time for a clean slate everywhere.

I want to know when mr. Haggard actually did what he was supposed to have done. I bet he probably did it a few months ago. If thats the truth the media sure planned the release of this around election time didn't it? If I am right it shows what an agenda the media has and its a liberal one I would say!

The troll is NOT right, of course.

He obviously didn't click on the link above.

Hopefully, This is the last time I have to provide actual facts for the doofus.

Haggard Admits Buying Meth
By Mike McPhee and Eric Gorski
Denver Post Staff Writers
DenverPost.com
Article Last Updated:11/03/2006 09:07:23 PM MST

Embattled minister Ted Haggard admitted buying methamphetamine from a male prostitute today but denied ever using the drug or having sex with him.

The prostitute, Michael Jones, a 49-year-old gay bodybuilder who claims he had a Three Year, sex-for-pay arrangement with Haggard...,

...For more than two years, Jones didn't know Haggard was a member of the clergy. He said he suspected it intuitively, especially when Haggard would call him from a 719 area-code telephone, which is in Colorado Springs.

"It didn't matter to me because there was no emotion in the relationship. It was just sex," he said. "About 80 percent of my clientele are married men. I've been with lots of clergy."

You didn't answer my question at all. Why didn't
you tell me when this was supposed to happen?
Why didn't this make the news until now? There is only one reason: To keep evangel Christians from voting. Thats it. You know what's so hypocrital about all of this? You expect conservatives to forgive John Kerry for his insulting remarks. And yet you liberals refuse to forgive anyone who does wrong who is a conservative. I am sure that when Jesus told us to forgive the command was not just for conservatives. He meant everyone!

Mrs M,

You don't have to post anything for a troll, but you CAN post it to continue to educate others on the board so that they too can make their minds up about the troll. So we thank you for that!

Strange though, if this were a movie, NOBODY would buy the premisis! Heck, in the future, students are gonna be second-guessing their history books -- is this for real or what?!

this concludes my post for mrs m.

If one simply Googles "Haggard" or reads the articles I've linked to (above), they'd know exactly how, when, and why this "came out" now.

There's no need to copy entire articles, because the facts/links are right there.

Skep,

Who would play the male hooker/bodybuilder in the movie (shown on the Lifetime channel, of course)? He's pretty buff.

Hmmmm...Jeff Gillooly? David Hasselhoff? Cochise?

Listening to "I Wish" right now on CJ's station:

Sneakin' out the back door...oooh, you nasty boy...

Too funny! Rampage on, my friend!

Wayne, do not tune into my radio show right now. You wont get it.

Haggard is as gay as a $3 bill. And it was his voice on the voicemail. They guy is a gay meth user, posing as a pastor. He's also a bald faced liar. I feel sorry for his wife, who must know by now everything that passes his lips is a bald faced lie. Great GOP morals!!!

Fill in the blank!

Everything that passes his lips is a ________ .

It seems there's some other very "unChristian" items passing in and out of his mouth.

I invite folks to read the Rev. Chuck Currie's blog at http://chuckcurrie.blogs.com/ to ponder a liberal pastor's viewpoint.

Enjoying someone else's misfortune, self-caused or not, is sad.

He writes:

"God’s grace is available for all. Human sexuality is a gift regardless of your orientation. Is it possible that Haggard was so repressed that he acted out in inappropriate ways? Whatever happened God’s forgiveness is always available and no one is excluded from God’s Kingdom because of their orientation. I hope that he learns that lesson and emerges from this scandal preaching equality instead of the bigotry he is known for."


We can only hope. If that actually were to happen, I'd immediately stop laughing at the irony of this situation. Too bad many right-winger/Christians (and some on this board) never had this same forgiveness to Clinton, when he got caught and admitted what he'd done, and that wasn't half as stupid as this whole deal is.(IMO)

Thanks for the link, Wobboh.

wobboh sez: "Enjoying someone else's misfortune, self-caused or not, is sad."

On the contrary . . . people who deliberately inflict misfortune on others, such as this haggard fellow, DESERVES all the crap (and laughter) that comes his way. Even if he offs himself, it'll never undo the misery he inflicted on others -- claiming to be acting on behalf of the Lord only multiplies the misfortune he deserves.

Heck, one can even argue that God has sent a clear and powerful message!

Let this be a lesson to those who are trying to shove their will down everybody's throat -- BACK OFF!!! Let God do the speaking Himself! Geez.

"The guy doesn't represent me. I have no idea who Haggard is or what his theological views are."

Ok Wayne, try to get me here. Follow the bouncing ball.

Haggard is a man who is a "devout Christian" who preaches his faith to others. So are YOU.

Haggard said to millions that your actions speak for who you are. So do YOU.

You both worship the same God, read from the same Bible. You supposedly share the same values and ideals ... are you with me so far?

Haggard has ADMITTED to using meth and having sex with a male prostitute. This goes deadpan AGAINST his teachings and preachings. What does this make him? Human. Just like you and me and everyone else in here.

I am not going to be one to kick a man when he is down ... right now, that is his wife's job, her and their five children. He has a lot to work out with HER and THEM. I personally hope he can find THEIR forgiveness and move on, and if he is indeed gay it IS ok to come out and be happy and free, and not live a life of misery trapped by his Church and his faith. There are PLENTY of gay Christians.

If you are in the position he is/was in, practicing what you preach goes a LONG way towards maintaining your legitimacy.

I think your last statement really hits home.

Could not agree more on that.

I do feel for the fam. Man, that's just about as ugly as it gets. Things like this are as brutal as it gets. Not only are some lives just totally hosed up, but it's public!

The kids are gonna catch it huge and that sucks.

Hope the wife can see through the dogma and move on.

>>>"Haggard has ADMITTED to using meth and having sex with a male prostitute."

I'm not sure this is true. He admitted to purchasing meth, but says he didn't use it. He says he only had a massage from the male prostitute, but not sex.

I think we probably all believe he's not being truthful, and that he was involved in both, but he hasn't admitted it.

Don't get me wrong. I consider this guy a sleezoid of the worst kind, like I consider many of the evangilist sleezoids to be opportunists. I don't consider them religious at all. They'll steal from you faster than anyone.

It's a mixed bag:

The Reverand has admitted to possession and an ongoing relationship with the prostitute. No sex admission however.

The prostitute has admitted to distribution and the relationship.

Ed had a criminal attorney get online and parse the information so far. It's enough to trigger at least a grand jury inquiry and charges...

One other interesting point the attorney raised, that I totally missed from ignorance on meth in general (I know it's bad --really bad, but that's it!), was the $200 purchase admitted to by the prostitute is not an amount that indicates a first time use. This is normally a small fraction of that. In her years of experience, that amount indicates regular use...

It is kind of telling though, assuming that he's lying about the sex, that he would admit to the drug charge, and not the sex.

The implication being that it's worse to be gay than a druggie.

Amus said>>>
The implication being that it's worse to be gay than a druggie.


To the NAZI wing of the Republican party it is.. Go figure.... Wonder is LimBLAH would like Homosexual men and women thrown in jail too????

Do you want all conservatives in jail? I would say you really don't believe in free speech do you? Except for people you agree with and only for them!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061105/ap_on_re_us/haggard_sex_allegations

Well, he got kicked out of his own church.

Way to kick someone while they are down. That doesn't sound very Christian-ly to me! Funny, when I went to church as a kid I was always taught to "forgive and forget" and to not judge others by their "sins".

I guess the Evangelical arm of the Christians don't seem to get the same word from God that some of the rest of us do. That's too bad.

That was probably the right thing that the church did. One thing a church is not supposed to do is tolerate sin. I used to go to Hinson and my minster of music had an affair and spoke before the congregation and was sorry and they forgave him. But they still couldn't keep him on their staff.

Brianl>> Way to kick someone while they are down. That doesn't sound very Christian-ly to me!

There are a couple of ways churches deal with fallen leaders.

One possibility is to just throw them out with the weekly trash and move on as if nothing happened. Unfortunately many go this route leaving no opportunity for forgiveness, healing of the individual, or healing among church members.

A better way that happens in a few cases still involves removing the indivdual from leadership temporarily, or permanently depending on how things play out down the line. This gives the person time to seek counselling and mental healing, and otherwise decide how he/she want's to live their life from that point on. If agreeable to counselling during the "time out" period the person would still a member of the church and could show up at church functions as a layperson, thus giving the congregation the opportunity to forgive him/her.

The person might eventually be restored to leadership or at least full membership if he/she agrees to live their life according to church teachings and is willing to be subject to a high level of accountability with his/her spouse and with a small group of respected church members/leaders/close friends.

Most often though, all parties will agree the best long term solution is a "new start" for the person in another church of the same denomination, sometimes in leadership, sometimes not, and with the new congregation's leaders and/or members having knowledge of the person's past.

Bottom line is there has to be balance somewhere between throwing people in the garbage and the other extreme often practiced by the Catholic Church of quietly moving the fallen leader to a new parish to simply start the bad behaviour over again with no accountability.

I heard that Haggard wasn't asked to leave, he resigned!

LOL.

Good one.You crack me up.

Peter denied (lied) about knowing Jesus three times. Jesus kept him as one of the disciples anyway. Peter was not fired from his position in the group. What did change was Peter himself.

That is so true and its a very important thing to remember. Jesus could have swept him under the rug but instead Peter was used mightly by God

Wayner said>>>
See I do acknowledge a mistake!

OH MY GOD!
First time for everything!!!!!

I have admitted it before. I have yet to see you ever admit a mistake Trix!

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-haggard6nov06,0,7806096.sto ry?coll=la-home-headlines

http://www.denverpost.com

Ted Haggard, the beleaguered pastor of one of the nation's most influential evangelical churches, was fired Saturday after admitting "sexually immoral conduct."

Haggard's New Life Church issued a statement saying he had been removed. But the church's oversight board, which was investigating accusations Haggard had sex with a gay prostitute and used methamphetamine, offered no details of its findings.


...But in a news conference after the Sunday service, the head of the oversight board, Pastor Larry Stockstill of Baton Rouge, La., told reporters that Haggard denied engaging in homosexual acts or being gay. Stockstill said Haggard's admission that he received a massage from a gay man was enough grounds for the board to remove him.

At the same time, Stockstill said the board found discrepancies in Haggard's account. He did not go into detail.

"(Haggard) is not in touch with truth and reality, and he readily admitted that," Stockstill said.


...Coles said Haggard will remain a member of the church. He said there has been no talk of a severance package.

Haggard's salary for 2006, minus benefits, was to have been $138,143.

"Stockstill said Haggard's admission that he received a massage from a gay man was enough grounds for the board to remove him.


What a narrow-minded and bigoted Church. Both Haggard AND the Church deserve all the crap that is happening to them. Serves them both right.

There had to be more than that. The media has a way of spinning things.

"What a narrow-minded and bigoted Church."

I agree.

While it still sounds like there was more than just "massage" over the last three years, and Haggard is admitting to his desires that began as a youth, and maybe Mr. Jones wasn't a licensed masseuse, but gave great massage, with or without the meth and the other "extra special" services.

But when I'm lucky enough to get a genuine massage from a licensed masseuse, male or female, I certainly don't ask them about their sexuality! The less talk the better.

And I'm sure glad I don't have to worry about my religious or job standing because of that.


And did you see those biceps on Mr. Jones? Yikes!

"And did you see those biceps on Mr. Jones? Yikes!"

Easy guurl!!

Remember those birthing classes?? Time to use that breathing technique again.

LOL!

In...out...in...out...hmmmm, I really could use a nice massage right now, especially while I cut off poor Mr. M's circulation from squeezing him so hard.

Then I had to have a darn C-section. Good drugs, no meth. Definitely no massage.

"What a narrow-minded and bigoted Church."

If Haggard had received illegal drugs and non-intercourse sexual favors from a heterosexual female who is not his wife it's probably safe to assume the church's reaction would be exactly the same.

The guy appears to be guilty of hypocrisy, lying, buying illegal drugs, and cheating on his wife, therefore I believe the church is justified in removing him from leadership regardless of his sexual orientation, or the orientation of his "masseuse."

There is no law that I know of that prohibits a pastor from receiving a massage from a gay man. How did the pastor find out he was gay? I bet the man didn't tell the pastor until after the service was performed. I believe the pastor wasn't removed, he resigned. From what I heard on the news the members who were interviewed stuck up for the pastor and like me they questioned the timing of the story.

Randy,

You're right, The gender of the pay-for-sex person is irrelevant.

I totally agree that it was right to formally remove (fire) him, even after he "voluntarily" stepped down while he was first being investigated and was still lying to his church oversight committee.

He lied to his wife and congregation, cheated on her whether there was sex or not, bought/did drugs, etc., and covered it all up. For three years, Wayne. His flock of sheep are flabbergasted, and not all are sticking up for him. They're hurt, mad, sad, and angry.

He wasn't seeking repentance or forgiveness, he was BUSTED! He just would've kept on doing this all the while standing in the pulpit hypocritically preaching against the very sins he was committing himself. What a jerk!

I also just meant that it's just too bad that his 14,000 member church is so intolerant against gays in general. Will he undergo "reprogramming" and renounce the errors of his ways? Will he admit admit he was born gay/bi and start a new church?

It will be very interesting to see how the voting goes on Referendum 1. I wonder if he has personally caused a backlash due to his support of the referendum, and adding that to the actions he chose to conduct in private, breaking most of the commandments.

Fair enough.

>>I wonder if he has personally caused a backlash due to his support of the referendum

A properly worded exit poll would tell us, but it probably won't happen unless done by Political Science students as class projects, or something.

randy, while it is true there are other factors that we don't know about that might have weighed into the decision to can the man, the statement by Stidwell said that being given a massage by a gay man was grounds enough to dismiss him. if that's their thinking then they're bigots.

That's the part that worries me.

Mrs M, Good point! Have to keep the Haggard name in mind for a while to see just what happens. Seems to me the "choose gay" crowd has a perfect poster boy right here.

The stories I've read on the reprogramming camps are pretty scary.

Wonder if Haggard himself thinks it's a choice?

Either way, he'll have to go with the "gay is a choice" group after his intensive reprogramming camp (group showers? bunk beds? campfires?), since that's where the money and fame are. Not to mention the forgiveness of his followers.

I really don't see any major changes politically immediately. I think what this does is it will have a ripple affect for the next few months, not necessarily for Tuesday's election.

The ripple I believe will be more scrutiny of other evangelical pastors who preach the same anti-gay message.

What I do see in the political arena is Republican politicians distancing themselves from the far right religious leaders and possibly the weakening of their influence on Washington.

I'm so glad something positive could come of this whole sordid event.

Thanks, "Reverend" Haggard!

Haggard is gay. All you have to do is look at him and hear him talk. He's gay and has been denying it for years.

Quote of the DECADE:

"I did not have sex with that man, Mr. Jones."

Somewhere Bubba is laughing... as are the 80,000,000 Americans set to vote tomorrow.

Sleep tight, Greedy Old People.

Your sad little world ends tomorrow at 8pm.

What I do see in the political arena is Republican politicians distancing themselves from the far right religious leaders and possibly the weakening of their influence on Washington.

that is not going to happen. The whole point of the story was to accomplish just that. But many of us still will like Dobson no matter what Haggard did. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch

Ladies and gents, there are bad apples on both sides. I still find it amazing that no one ever brings up Ted Kennedy , and Chapaquiddick
( sp?).

>>>"Haggard is gay. All you have to do is look at him and hear him talk."

Rein, how can this be? We've been told by Wayne that it's nothing more than a choice.

Wayner said>>>
I have admitted it before. I have yet to see you ever admit a mistake Trix!

WTF???

Grammar errors all the time!!! I admit when I'm wrong Immediately! You haven't been paying much attention on this board if you haven't seen me admit to a mistake.

I had a former pastor leave his wife for a younger woman and he was a wonderful man.

Wayne, how can you believe such a man is a wonderful man?

Deane, this is because there are biological factors in people's sexuality.

I wondered that myself. I expect better of people in positions of authority and trust.

I always thought people who cheated were the scum of the earth, until it happened to my best friend. I'm a little more understanding now, but still, Church employees?

Grow up, selfish sinners, and do what God tells you as to the right way to live, or at the very least do it in the ethical, moral, and legal order!

I think Deane is being sarcastic.

at least I hope so, because I laughed.

I thought so, and laughed too!

By Radioblogman on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 11:29 am:
I had a former pastor leave his wife for a younger woman and he was a wonderful man.

Wayne, how can you believe such a man is a wonderful man?


The pastor didn't leave his wife until after he left the church. I was quite disappointed that it happened. But when he was at Hinson where I went at the time it was a pleasure to listen to him and people came to that church in droves. I think it shows that even the best of us can fall. I heard the pastor has remarried and is pastoring again but I don't know where

By Timryan on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 10:57 am:
Ladies and gents, there are bad apples on both sides. I still find it amazing that no one ever brings up Ted Kennedy , and Chapaquiddick
( sp?).


our liberal friends sure don't think they have any bad apples. I also wonder why they give Kennedy a pass. I heard on the radio where he gave information to the USSR when Reagan was running for reelection in 1984. Didn't that used to be called treason?

Yep, liberals are never wrong, and all conservatives should be put in jail. That's what us liberals think.

Wayne, I once had a pastor I thought was a great guy until he did the same thing and had an affair with a woman he was counseling before her marriage.

>>>"Deane, this is because there are biological factors in people's sexuality."

>>>"I think Deane is being sarcastic."

I am on record as supporting the position that sexuality is determined by genetics and is not a choice.

By Radioblogman on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 1:29 pm:
Wayne, I once had a pastor I thought was a great guy until he did the same thing and had an affair with a woman he was counseling before her marriage.

It really is a shame that it happens. Its no wonder that non-Christians have a hatred toward God when things like that happen. A fellow I used to work with who left the church told me he was offended when we forgave the minister of music for his affair. You see we are supposed to forgive but that does not mean we give him a pass. The minister had to leave the church.

...on record. Give credit where credit is due!

Chris: Let's hope so! We need more sane conservatives.

I sarcastically responded to Deane, because I know where he stands.

Deep thoughts:

I'm wondering, does anyone know somebody who has an actual hatred towards "God"? I assume atheists and "non-Christians" wouldn't because they don't acknowlege "God", so that seems like a non-issue. There's nobody to "hate".

I guess a that leaves people who believe(d) in God but feel they were cheated, let down, or damaged by their head honcho/diety in some fashion.

(Wayne, I'm politely asking for you to NOT respond to me)

When I believed enough to matter, I went through this.

Got handed some very bad life experiences. When somebody told me, it's a test, or that it's God's will, I went nuts! I hated the idea that some powerful being would actually have such disregard for others.

It's like watching your pet caught in a trap or something. Even though it's a lower form of life, it's still alive right? Being able to help, yet not helping is just cold and somehow deeply wrong.

How can something all knowing and all powerful be such a complete and utter ass! This was the cracking in the faith at the same time. After some serious thinking, this did not sit well with me.

Came down to this: (roughly)

Either our perception of what is good and harmonious is flawed, or the being in charge does not care (which totally begs the question, "why should I then?"), or it's all crap and I'm being handled --and I cannot stand to be handled.

The first two are not really defensible, leaving the third to slowly rule the day!

Of course it's a lot more complex than that. I'm just posting the general process to answer your question Mrs M.

DJ said>>>
I am on record as supporting the position that sexuality is determined by genetics and is not a choice.

WOW!
COMMON SENSE!!!!!!!
Respect is growing.....

Mrs. Merkin-

One look in the bible and there are plenty of examples. Even Jesus asked "take this cup away".

It is only human as a believer that you may go through times when your faith is challenged on many fronts, or simply life has handed you some difficult cards. Why do bad things happen to good people? I have no direct answer but I do know in my own life that as for my faith it has brought me through those hard times. However, it wasn’t just sitting back and saying “Okay God, your turn…make it happen!” It doesn’t actually work that way as I have come to find. It’s a process. And it’s during that process you may get angry at God. You may curse at God. I have dropped an F-bomb or two in God’s face, but even that doesn’t sway my own personal faith.

For what it's worth, and doing my hardest not to sound preachy, but during times of strife in Old Testament days your prophets would cry out asking God why? Why the wars, the poverty the injustice. During calmer times your prophets were silent. This is based on what's known as Biblical Archeology.

During times of peace archeologists who have studied ancient city ruins found housing pretty much the same in look and nature. During times of strife they found disparity in living conditions. Your upper class housing compared to the poor.

I do agree that the atheists or non-Christians that I have known aren’t haters of God. As a matter of fact they talk a lot about a God and ask me questions. I certainly don’t have any pat answers I simply tell them my personal experience and we leave it at that.

Not sure that is what you were looking for but it’s what you got.

Doug-

First I really appreciate your honesty. I know you have shared your personal story before. I am just as upset about the classic "God is putting you to the test" or "Your faith is weak" or "It's God's Will." That is bullshit to the inth degree.

You are one of those critical thinkers that makes me re-evaluate some of my own beliefs and value systems. I have never "lost" my faith, but I have questioned it. Mostly in my younger days.

These days I see Gods hand in my life in many aspects from my marriage, to being a parent to the work I so enjoy. But that's my life. I would never think of trying to persuade you to believe what I believe. I feel I need to learn from people like yourself, or from Pete or Deane. (the jury is still out on Trixter...wink wink)

Doug if I can be so bold as to say...I don't think God let you down, people did.

Maybe so...

For what it's worth, anyone hating God really has not thought it through well enough to know better. A god worthy of hate is flawed on it's own merits. This leaves God either being worthy and believable, or not. I'm not sure hate can enter the equation if one is really honest about it.

This "hate" is really just anger that does not have a solid target, IMHO.

Of course there remains the possibility I was just not handled properly too! Interestingly, in this we agree (about people) and the rest becomes a matter of perspective.

Better to not dwell on that however.

I'm going through another one of those times right now it seems. Thought it was a blip, but I'm thinking it's another long haul through the crap.

Who knows where this one will lead?

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

I think the only hate that I have seen is from people who grew up in church and had a bad experience in it and then turned his back on God because of it. I wish people wouldn't blame God for the mistakes men have made. We are all only human and will have to answer for them someday. I have seen plenty of people hurt themselves or others because they never learned to deal with their hate but have let it pile on through the years. What I want to know is what good does it do to hate like that?

"Its no wonder that non-Christians have a hatred toward God when things like that happen. A fellow I used to work with who left the church told me he was offended when we forgave the minister of music for his affair. You see we are supposed to forgive but that does not mean we give him a pass."

Who's hating God here? I don't see ANYONE saying anything negative about God. I have never said word one negative about God, or Jesus Christ. Chris has given us many examples of what a kind and forgiving type Jesus Christ was. I think that ALL of Christianity, indeed all of humanity could learn something from what Jesus set forth as an example.

I think I speak for a lot of people in here when I say that it isn't God that we dislike, it's his fan club. People that refuse to think rationally about anything, people that won't think or act for themselves ... they just say "it's God's will." I don't know about you, but I wasn't put on this Earth to be a damn cow, led around in a herd all day long. There is following God, and there is being a lemming who feeds on regurgitated matter much like a mother bird feeds her babies.

Which one are YOU?

I don't believe anybody here hates God, its just been my experience in other places. His followers are not perfect and they need forgiveness too because they will fall. What gets me is the attitude people have toward Christians because they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

whats with the long space between our posts? Did Missing decide to use white ink or something?

Its kind of hard to hate something that I believe doesn't exist. If He does exist, he hasn't done anything to me personally to hate him for. Plus I have no evidence that he did anything else that I need to hate him for.

The people that I might hate are the ones claiming to be speaking on his behalf causing chaos in our civilization.

Skep, agreed.

Well I dont believe in God but I will point out that Jesus was killed cause he claimed to speak to god. ( thats the story atleast)

That was called hate then and its still called hate.

Jesus was crucified because he claimed he WAS God not because he spoke for God. And it wasn't hate it was because of God's love for us.

Mc74-

Some biblical study might be helpful.

Some?!?

LOL!!!

Somebody missed a coupla days of school somewhere.