Do you still think there is no war on Christmas: Read this. Maybe you will understand my struggle against liberalism:




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Federal Appellate Court: Law Center’s Legal Challenge to School District’s Ban on Christmas Music Can Proceed
Thu, Oct 5, 2006
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ANN ARBOR, MI — The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, ruled today that the Thomas More Law Center’s constitutional challenge to a New Jersey school district’s policy that banned all religious music in the district’s public schools can proceed. The ruling reversed a lower court’s decision dismissing the complaint for failure to state a claim. The School District’s ban specifically prevented the playing of Christmas music, including simple instrumentals, during the 2004 year-end celebrations in its public schools.
Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Law Center, commented, “The New Jersey school district’s anti-religious policy is yet another example of the militant hostility that many public schools have towards Christians and Christmas. The Grinch is alive and well in New Jersey, but not for long.”
Robert Muise, the Law Center attorney handling the matter, commented, “The Third Circuit’s decision confirms that school districts cannot adopt policies that disfavor religion. In fact, it plainly demonstrates that our Constitution does not require complete separation of church and state; it affirmatively mandates accommodation, not merely tolerance of all religions, and forbids hostility toward any. We are pleased with the decision to allow this case to proceed.”
The case was filed by the Thomas More Law Center and the American Catholic Lawyers Association, on behalf of Michael Stratechuk, who sued on his own and on behalf of his two school-age children. In the complaint, the Law Center argued that the school district’s ban on religious music conveys the impermissible, government-sponsored message of disapproval of and hostility toward religion in violation of the Establishment Clause, and that it deprives the Stratechuk children the right to receive information and ideas, an inherent corollary of their First Amendment rights to freedom of speech and academic freedom.
On September 30, 2005, the district court dismissed the Law Center’s complaint, claiming that the Law Center failed to state a claim under the United States Constitution. The Third Circuit disagreed, vacating the lower court’s decision and remanding the case for further proceedings. In its opinion, the Third Circuit held that “[b]ecause a categorical ban on exclusively religious music, enacted with the express purpose of sending a message of disapproval of religion, appears to state a claim under the First Amendment . . . , we conclude that the complaint . . . survive[s the] motion to dismiss.” The Third Circuit also awarded the Law Center its costs for having to bring the appeal.
The New Jersey School District policy at issue in this case was previously featured in a book, The War On Christmas, by Fox News anchor, John Gibson. The Thomas More Law Center defends and promotes the religious freedom of Christians, time-honored family values, and the sanctity of human life through education, litigation, and related activities. It does not charge for its services. The Law Center is supported by contributions from individuals, corporations, and foundations and is recognized by the IRS as a section 501(c)(3) organization.

The schools could play: "Jingle Bells", "Sleigh Ride" & "Winter Wonderland" just to name a few that don't mention Jesus or Christmas.

The point missed here for me is that fact just because you aren't able to play Christmas songs that reference Jesus, God, virgin birth or what have you, doesn't make the season any less important to Christians.

Religious Christmas songs and symbols are mere expressions of Christian faith and nothing more as I see it. Taking these songs out schools doesn't take God or Jesus out of the hearts and minds of those who believe. I think this is really a trivial point considering all the other problems of this world. This is mute point for me even as a Christian who loves Christmas songs with religious lyrics.

Some schools are changing the carols we sing so there is no longer any reference to Jesus! I think thats sick.

Plenty of references of Jesus in the bible. Loads of songs there too. Song of Solomon, the Psalms, David's wonderful music and lyrics. Jesus’ mother singing songs of praise. That's the good stuff.

Christmas pageant music is second-class to the songs in the bible.

Wayne: Tell us why you believe "Christmas" should be part of a school curriculum.

Why shouldn't it be? It always has been. Why do we need to be so politically correct? Christmas doesn't offend enough people it seems to me that we need to ban it! Most people probably don't mind having Christmas in schools. Its only a few bitter atheists who don't want to be part of it and how many are there that are that way? There is no reason that they have to take part if they don't want to. But why make the rest of us suffer because we want to appease a few? The who politically correct notion is what upsets me the most. We don't need to elimate Christmas completely from schools! I think its interesting that comment would come from someone who was "Mr. Christmas" for all those years! Why have that at all if we are going to be so PC?

"Its only a few bitter atheists"

as opposed to "a few selfish nutty religious dumbells" of which one is you wayne.

so who is right? you or them?

See, in addition to being a LIAR, you're also SELFISH.

Go to Church and sing your damn songs. Stop wrecking everyone else's enjoyment of christmas songs.

>>Its only a few bitter atheists who don't want to be part of it

Only?! There are also believers in other religions, Judaism (sp?), for one, comes to mind. Jewish kids should not be forced to participate in something that goes against their parents instruction. When I was in school (Late '60s/'70s) I didn't see Jewish students forced into it like in previous generations but many were coerced into singing carols against their religion, or made to look like fools if they refused to participate.

In the 1980s when a few public school teachings strayed a little towards "New Age" or eastern religions the Christians were right there screaming against it, as maybe they should have been, but at the same time some of those same Christians would have wanted other students force-fed their Christianity. Don't all parents, not just some, have the right to say what their children will be taught?

The public schools should remain neutral and when kids come of age they can decide for themselves whether they accept their parents religious, or non-religious teachings or not. Look at Madalyn Murray O'Hair's son, Bill(?) Murray. After his mother was instrumental in getting school-endorsed prayer banned he later as an adult became a devout Christian.

It's only a few bitter Christians who are so afraid their beliefs cannot stand on their own merits that they have to force it on other people and other people's children.

Skeptical>>Go to Church and sing your damn songs. Stop wrecking everyone else's enjoyment of christmas songs.

Personally I'll take the "damn songs" at church over Wayne Newton's "Jingle Bell Hustle," or the Bobby Sherman Christmas album.

Wayne, define " War " and then define " Christmas." I know that it seems absurd, but do it in a way to encompass all your angles. Because you, of all people, should have a very handy and full definition of those words. Not just what Bill O' Reilly tells you that it exists. Think for yourself and stand by it. Then you and everyone else can be on the same page. And " no fair " adding stuff to the definition later when someone uses your own words to show you that a " war on Christmas " does not exist. You have to THINK and DECIDE. Right here. Right now.

Spell it out and stay focused. Think.

As "Mr. Christmas" (as Wayne has stated above), I believe every Boy & Girl can celebrate the Christmas Season everyday, before school and after school, not missing one day of the countdown to Christmas. School is for learning. The last time I checked "Christmas" was not a chapter in Social Studies or History and therefore should not be part of the public school curriculum.

Wayne said:
"Some schools are changing the carols we sing so there is no longer any reference to Jesus! I think thats sick."

Wayne, if you want your children to so desperately learn about Jesus and Christianity while in school, please do us a favor and pony up the scratch to put them in a private parochial school, where it is part of the curriculum.

I have two children in the public school system, one in sixth grade and one in third grade. I don't pay property taxes on my house to help pay for my kids to get an education that includes ONE religious view, one that my wife and I personally have issues with. If I wanted my children to learn about God and Christ and Christianity, I would pile us all in the car and go to church on Sunday. If I ever hear wind about religious teachings at school (other than perhaps what the world's religions ARE), I will have a problem.

There's a reason why we have the seperation of church and state, Wayne. Nobody here has a problem with your religious beliefs, nor are we able to do anything about it if we did. Where we have the problem is when you want it shoved down the throats of every child in school. Do you think Muslim parents would be happy if their local public school started teaching about Jesus? How about the Jewish kids? There's a lot of athiests around too, I'm sure their parents would LOVE their child to hear about the word of God instead of doing arithmetic in school!

Our public schools need to be places of religious neutrality. With the ever increasing diversity of beliefs and those who do not believe at all it is not appropriate in that forum. How would you feel if your child was in a school mostly of a different religion and came home and told you that when class started they took 5 minutes and prayed to BUDDAH for example, (no offense to those who believe in that) would you be OK with that.
However I believe that books of all faiths (including Christmas stories for the youth) should be available in the library and not banned due to religious content. If you do not like it do not check it out. I believe in christianity but have not yet become a good christian follower. I have faults.

Schools are for developing the persons knowledge.
Churches are for developing ones faith.

There are places for both and are both free to everyone!

The idea that there is a "war on Christmas" is a farce. Public schools should not be endorsing any religion. Unfortunately, some christians feel the need to force their view down everyone else's throat becasue "that's the way it's always been". If we were to use that line of thinking in other aspects of life, I'd have a Negro tending my crops, and my wife wouldn't be allowed to vote. Lucky for us, we've moved on from that sort of thinking.

For the people that are so upset about their kids not getting to celebrate Christmas in school, send your kid to a christian private school, and they can sing Christmas carols to their heart's content.

Then maybe you need to read the article I posted because it showed that that is the case. Like I said why do we have to be so politically correct? Thats the enemy of our freedoms I think.

I don't need to read anything when it comes to this subject. It's cut and dry. Religious songs have NO business being sung in a public school.

Brian:There's a reason why we have the seperation of church and state, Wayne.
[[[[[[[[[[[

Did you know thats not in the constitution? Did you know also that it has a religous history? Did you know also that it was never meant to limit religion to churches and homes?

[[[[[[[[[[Where we have the problem is when you want it shoved down the throats of every child in school. ]]]]]]]]]]]]


Nobody is doing that. Most children don't mind having carols sung at school. I notice that forcing never happened when I went to school and somehow it happens now. Again why do we have to be so politically correct that we can't sing a carol?


[[[[[[[
Do you think Muslim parents would be happy if their local public school started teaching about Jesus?]]]]]]]]]]]

I don't believe they wouldn't mind it all if we shared our faith in a school. If we did that over a loudspeaker that would be one thing. But there is a reason we have freedom of religion for pete's sake! The question I have is is that a good thing? We have a war on Christmas. Its a war on religious freedom more than it is on that.

[[[[[[[[There's a lot of athiests around too, I'm sure their parents would LOVE their child to hear about the word of God instead of doing arithmetic in school!
]]]]]]]]
Why should we ban religion at all just to accomidate a few atheists? I doubt if they are as offended by Christmas as you make them out to be. Like I said most kids I don't think care one way or the other about singing Christmas carols the way you do. We need to stop being so politically correct! The whole war on Christmas comes from PC it seems like.

Wayne, once again your ignorance shows. Several posters have stated that they do not agree with religious activities happening in public schools. Obviously others around country have sued over this, so they don't agree with you either. Although you may think it's okay, can't you see that it's NOT okay with others?

Wayne, being the parent of zero children, where do you get your encyclopedic knowlege of what they care about?

You are essentially arguing for tyranny of the majority. Who gives a damn what athiests, jews, muslims, buddists, pagans, wiccans, hare krishnas, hindus, scientologists, sikhs, rastafarians or zoroastrians think? "most" people are christians, so we'll just do what the christians like and to hell with the rest of them (literally). Right?

There IS NO "war on christmas". This lawsuit is just another baby step in the decades-long effort that's been made to extricate religious bias from our governmental bodies.

You may be interested to know (yeah, fat chance) that much if not most of this religious bias (see: 10 commandments on the courthouse steps) has been around, not "since the beginning" or "since the birth of our glorious christian nation", but only since the red scare of the mid-20th century(also when "under god" was added to the pledge of alligance in *1954*), when people reacted to the supposed "godless communists" by moving toward public displays of religion.

Ironic that you get so worked up over a holiday that has zero to do with Christ anyway, but rather was usurped from the pagan tradition(and has since been usurped as an orgy of consumerism).

By Tadc on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 1:20 pm:
Wayne, being the parent of zero children, where do you get your encyclopedic knowlege of what they care about? ]]]]]]]

From talking to them and their parents. Where do you get yours from. the liberal bloggers?



[[[[[[[[[
You are essentially arguing for tyranny of the majority. Who gives a damn what athiests, jews, muslims, buddists, pagans, wiccans, hare krishnas, hindus, scientologists, sikhs, rastafarians or zoroastrians think? "most" people are christians, so we'll just do what the christians like and to hell with the rest of them (literally). Right? ]]]]]]]

Your problem is that you are so politically correct you want Christianity banned. Any other religion is favored and you are okay with it. But just one, mine? Heaven forbid.


[[[[[[[
There IS NO "war on christmas". This lawsuit is just another baby step in the decades-long effort that's been made to extricate religious bias from our governmental bodies.
]]]]]]]
There sure is a war. I posted the article to prove it. There should be no religious freedom according to you it sounds like. Plus we the people are the government. Its not a group of buildings, its us.


[[[[[[

You may be interested to know (yeah, fat chance) that much if not most of this religious bias (see: 10 commandments on the courthouse steps) has been around, not "since the beginning" or "since the birth of our glorious christian nation", but only since the red scare of the mid-20th century(also when "under god" was added to the pledge of alligance in *1954*), when people reacted to the supposed "godless communists" by moving toward public displays of religion.
]]]]]]]]]

You need to visit Washington DC sometime. You will notice scriptural references everywhere! The Supreme Court has the 10 commandments right in their building! We have had "under God" as our motto since at least 1814. If you look at the last verse of the star spangled banner "under God" is directly refered to as the motto!


[[[[[

Ironic that you get so worked up over a holiday that has zero to do with Christ anyway, but rather was usurped from the pagan tradition(and has since been usurped as an orgy of consumerism).

]]]]]]]]

What is so amazing to me is that you want America to be a completely God free state. You sound like you want Christianity to be banned. And you don't know anything about Christmas if you don't think its about Jesus. We celebrate His birthday that time. I sense some bitterness here. Maybe you need God in your life.

all I can add is...

"Holy crap!"

OK. I get Wayne now. I get it. OK. I was really wrong before. Wayne, you are doing all this stuff on purpose. It's clear now. You don't work well with others and you do it in a way that actually had me fooled for a bit. But now I know that you just refuse to listen, consider, re-consider or hear anything that others besides what your golden calf tells you.

And with that I cannot hang. Sorry to be so blunt, but I am going to have to ignore you from now on. Just for the sake of my own sanity. So in the future, if you wonder why I don't answer any of your pointless, twisted logic or anything else that you want to talk about - or want to debate about - know that I am deciding to not engage you. It's just you. Not your point or your content, just you. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't LIKE to discuss things with you, but it's just that you won't hear it. You won't. And that will be on purpose.

You should be studied. More.

I think what you really think is that I should agree with everything liberals here say or else I am stupid and ignorant. You desparately want me to be a liberal too. But my conviction won't allow that. I suggest we need to be free to disagree here.Thats apparently not what some people want at all. Why can't we have an open and honest debate? Is that asking too much?

I think Wayne got marching orders from the church to go out and self-pimp the evangelical cause because things are pretty grim this voting season.

randy, actually, I do like a few religious xmas songs -- fond memories as a kid singing in nursing homes and for the shutins and stuff, but somebody stupid is wrecking it for me.

ww sez: "I think what you really think is that I should agree with everything liberals here say or else I am stupid and ignorant."

no, we want you to be a conservative. there is no way we want somebody stupid and ignorant on this side of the aisle.

(or in the middle of the aisle, or even the left edge of the right side of the aisle. or heck even in the middle of the right side of the aisle.)

Wayne: Question: Have you ever gone into a store around Christmas and found the background music is not Christmas music? Would you complain to the management? If not, Why not?

This is supposed to generate friendly debates not promote anymore hate. God knows the world has to much of it already. And yes I used the word GOD on purpose. If you want a friendly debate on that I would love to. But you try to force your beliefs on those you debate with.
Let's all be civil in here.

By Craig_adams on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 4:29 pm:
Wayne: Question: Have you ever gone into a store around Christmas and found the background music is not Christmas music? Would you complain to the management? If not, Why not?


I never noticed a store that doesn't play Christmas music! Thats an interesting point because I am surprized that the secularists haven't gone after that. I mean suppose the word Christ is mentioned in a song shouldn't a complaint be raised? I mean if we have to have "Happy Holidays" instead of Christmas then why is there no problem with carols over the loudspeader? Good point I think.

By Missing_kskd on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 3:46 pm:
I think Wayne got marching orders from the church to go out and self-pimp the evangelical cause because things are pretty grim this voting season.


I will take my orders from the church over the ACLU any day. I don't believe its a crime to do what you suggested is it?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51652


Still another example of the war on Christmas can be seen in this article

Christmas is a COMMERCIAL holiday that's been ruined by BIG BUSINESS!!!!!

I'm ignoring Wayne from now on as well for the same reasons listed by Chicken.

God Bless You Wayne. You really need a hobby.

Wayner needs a reality check NOT a hobby.

Wayne: Question: Is one of the reasons you are so adamant, wanting carols in public schools because the carols are bring school children to Jesus Christ, so they can be saved?

Thats not it at all. What I am so adamant about is that we have become so politically correct that we can't say "merry Christmas" anymore nor can we sing carols that have any refrence to Christ. When I was in school there was no such thing as political correctness and we could have religious references and there was no big deal.Nowdays we dare not offend anybody that is not a Christan. Anyone who is a Christian had better take a back seat to everybody else! Why is there no problem with Jews and Moslems doing the same thing?

"Why is there no problem with Jews and Moslems doing the same thing?"

Wayne: What public school celebrates Hanukkah?

This thread is starting to remind me of my sons favorite shirt:

I See Your Lips Moving But All I Hear Is BLAH..BLAH..BLAH



I am also reminded of what Sammy Hagar said about Eddie Van Halen:

"Eddie is not User Friendly"

I haven't been to school in a long time Craig but if political correctness is the order of the day Hanukah is probably being celebrated. I had a sedar once at a church I used to go to. It was quite a moving experience. Why not celebrate Hanukah too? What I object to is the umbrella "happy holidays." I would much rather hear happy Hanukah or merry Christmas than happy holidays or "winter solstace. Did you know that the term "holiday" means "holy day?" our pastor told us that!

I don't think most people have a problem with "Merry Christmas". Even Jewish people I know say it.

Christmas means different things to different people, Wayne. I don't see a problem with Christmas carols in school or anything like that, but if they start preaching to my children, all hell will be raised.

Why can't you accept the fact that some of us with children don't wish to have a religion that others have used to hate and persecute Jews, Muslims, blacks, hispanics, gays and anyone else they deem "unfit for society" in the name of God? What is so damn hard about this?

Wayne: You just contradicted yourself in your last post.

"What I object to is the umbrella "Happy Holidays".

"Did you know that the term "holiday" means holy day? Our pastor told us that!"

Wayne: You should start listening to your pastor and quit objecting to Happy Holidays. It's a holy term!

Tadc>> zero to do with Christ anyway......and has since been usurped as an orgy of consumerism

The biggest irony of "the holiday season" is we celebrate the birth of the guy who once said, "Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven..." by going out and buying a bunch of crap that moths and rust destroy (polyester leisure suits notwithstanding, not to mention cheap plastics that quickly fall apart or become outdated.

It is sort of a shame though that school kids today don't have the privilege of singing, "Jingle bells, Batman smells, Robin laid an egg..."

And what about school districts and other public entities that have banned Santa Claus and decorated trees, calling them "religious symbols"?

Santa Claus & Christmas Trees don't belong in school either. For some poor kids there won't be a Christmas! Why keep reminding them by ramming it down their throats in school? They see enough of it in stores and on TV.

Jesus wasn't even born on December 25. The celebration was set for that date to coincide with the existing pagan celebration, to try to get people to adapt to Christianity more easily.

As far as I'm concerned, either we celebrate all the religions (or lack of them) in the schools or none. If you celebrated all of them, you're going to offend someone. What about an atheist celebration? How about having kids singing songs about how God doesn't exist on Atheist Day? Do you think any Christians would mind their kids coming home singing those songs?

Obviously we should keep religion out of our public schools. Let parents and the churches teach religion.

Andrew

I know Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. But why do we have to be so politically correct that we can't sing christmas carols? It seems so odd to me that you are so offended when they are sung in a school and yet as Craig pointed out when they have carols in a supermarket it doesn't bother you! If we are going to go all the way we can't have a "winter solstace" either. For that matter why do we have a December 25th holiday? How many of you are offended that we have the day off to celebrate Christs birthday? The whole political correctness notion has gone too far. We need to be reasonable here. Carols in schools were never an issue at all until PC came along. Why wasn't it offensive to sing them when we were in school but it is now?

By Craig_adams on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:32 pm:
Wayne: You just contradicted yourself in your last post.

"What I object to is the umbrella "Happy Holidays".

"Did you know that the term "holiday" means holy day? Our pastor told us that!"

Wayne: You should start listening to your pastor and quit objecting to Happy Holidays. It's a holy term!


My point was that we are supposed to say Holiday instead of Christmas. Thats the point of the war on Christmas. I think if we are going to be politically correct here we can't say "holiday" if it means "holy day." And no "winter solstace day"either! That sounds so empty and that offends me! If you want to use holiday thats okay with me but not solstace. What does that mean?

Look at it another way.

Would you object if they had kids reciting quotes from the Quran during Ramadan?

By Brianl on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:09 pm:
I don't think most people have a problem with "Merry Christmas". Even Jewish people I know say it.

Christmas means different things to different people, Wayne. I don't see a problem with Christmas carols in school or anything like that, but if they start preaching to my children, all hell will be raised.

Why can't you accept the fact that some of us with children don't wish to have a religion that others have used to hate and persecute Jews, Muslims, blacks, hispanics, gays and anyone else they deem "unfit for society" in the name of God? What is so damn hard about this?


Look if you want to say "happy Hanukah" thats fine with me. My whole point about this is that we don't need to be so politically correct that we avoid Christmas altogether! We all have Dec 25th off don't we? Well, maybe not mr. Christmas!
And why do we make Christianity take a back seat to the other religions of the world because of political correctness? I am afraid that will be the result of all this. the whole PC idea is what aggrivates me the most here. I don't care what kids' religions are. Its the hippie parents who grew up in the 60's who are making a big deal of it.

Jeeeeee-sus Christ was just a ma-hann
Fa-la-la-la-la, la la la la!
Bible full of faii-ree tah-les
Fa-la-la-la-la, la la la la!

Yeah, all the kids can sing that on Atheist Day in schools and learn about the numerous proven errors in the Bible, the Quran, and in other relgions when they celebrate the day of There Is No God. I know it's not PC and it will offend a lot of parents, but so what? Screw Politically Correct!

Andrew

I'd like to ask a simple question to a few in this thread.

Is it possible for you to AGREE that you DISAGREE on this topic?

I don't care what the kids celebrate in their schools as long as they don't do it at the expense of Chrisitanity. All I am asking is that all religions be treated the same. Its probably a good idea for the kids to learn about the different faiths of the world. The article I posted earlier said that New York school districts justified Minorahs and Moslem Crescents at schools but outlawed nativity scenes. Thats my big complaint here!

By Joamon4sure on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 9:54 pm:
I'd like to ask a simple question to a few in this thread.

Is it possible for you to AGREE that you DISAGREE on this topic?


According to my experience the answer is no.

By Craig_adams on Friday, October 20, 2006 - 8:49 pm:
Santa Claus & Christmas Trees don't belong in school either. For some poor kids there won't be a Christmas! Why keep reminding them by ramming it down their throats in school? They see enough of it in stores and on TV.


I have a better idea: Why don't we all eliminate the holiday of December 25th. That way if you do become mr. Christmas you won't be the only one working!

If you allow one you allow all and soon schools will become so engrossed with the various religions that basic education will suffer. Better off leaving religion out of that venue all together. Churches exist for the teaching of faith and religion. Also parents of those faiths are responsible for doing so in their homes. Schools are for learning the standards and not argueing about religion.

"...And no "winter solstace day"either! That sounds so empty and that offends me! If you want to use holiday thats okay with me but not solstace. What does that mean...?"

(Why don't you just look it up before you open your mouth????)

Okay, Wayne, I've been keeping my mouth pretty well shut at 95% of your posts, because I still thought that maybe we really would have coffee some day, and we both like the same funk music, but now you've really offended ME!

While I attend my church fairly regulary, I don't consider or call myself a "Christian". Especially now, when the word has been co-opted and stolen by people who use it to mean something else, that I don't believe in.

And I adore Christmas music, even the religious stuff, although I don't want it at public schools. But's that's what, 40 hours a week?

So, get over it, we can knock ourselves out and sing 'em loud and proud the other 16 hours a day and all weekend!

As a Native American, as well as a spiritual person, I honor the seasons, the earth's cycles and the solstices, as well as the church calendar. These concepts go back much further than Christianity, and I believe, compliment, rather than compete with "modern" religion.

Please spend 10 minutes researching something you admittedly know nothing about before jumping on the assumption bandwagon and being an offensive and/or ignorant "Christian".

Otherwise, in my book, you're just another example of why "Christian" is a dirty and hypocrital word sometimes. Maybe you can learn to accept others, despite their differences.

Wayne: Big Business would never allow the Christmas Holiday to be canceled.

I am serious Craig. The only way that we can handle this controversy is to eliminate Chrismas altogether. Either we do that or we go back to where things were before where Christmas was okay in schools and nobody was offended. The 60's hippies who are parents now are making a mountain out of a molehill.

>>Why don't we all eliminate the holiday of December 25th.

Better yet, why not remove December 25th from our calendars altogether and drop it into the middle of summer so we can all have a Christmas night beach party like they do "down under." In most places there is no school in summer so it would become a moot point.

Surf instrumentals, anyone?

>>back to where things were before where Christmas was okay in schools and nobody was offended. The 60's hippies who are parents now are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Just as some Christians are trying to make a mountain out of spilled milk, or is it an attempt to put the toothpaste back into a can of worms?

(I guess we all have our own ways to try and get others attention when we have nothing better to do on a Friday night.)

Uh, most people your age are actually Grandparents now.

And you haven't been in school now for over 40 years. Things have changed. A lot.

What did you do during the 60's, Wayne? You didn't get drafted, you didn't volunteer to go, and you weren't experimenting with all the fun stuff, so where were you and what were you doing? Just watching it all go by in disgust?

I wsa in the service briefly but thats a long story. But what does that have to do with anything? Even in the service there was more religious freedom then there is nowdays in a school! I am serious here. If you are against Christmas that much why do we have that as a holiday at all? Either there is bitterness against God here or we have become in bondage to political correctness here. We had none of that in the 60's and we were much better off.

Uh, Where did I say I'm against Christmas? I have 17 huge full tubs of Christmas stuff upstairs that say otherwise. I probably have 50 Christmas CD's.

I know every line of "A Christmas Story" by heart.

Me? In "bondage" to political correctness? I have a very, very politically incorrect image in my head just thinking about that one!

Hohohohahahahahohohoho!

And hey, did you hear the one about the retired mailman that lived at home with his mom and they decided to go into show business together? They went to an agent and said "have I got a family act for you..."

(Cue up HBO or the DVD of "the Aristocats", possibly the dirtiest movie ever...you will never look at Bob Saget the same way again, I promise you)

First Mr. merkin: Your 10:44 post was just beautiful! I was posting quickly at the same time to catch the 11:00 clock news, so I just got back to read your well written statements. I bow to you.

Wayne: I'm coming to the conclusion that the world has passed You by. You're talking about a time that will never come again. For better or for worse in people eyes. I believe the majority of American's want what has currently been approved in schools.

The Ice Man will never again bring ice to home icebox's, no matter how loud You shout.

Happy not to be in school.

And Mr. Christmas, I curtsy to thee as well!

Deck the haws wif boughs of howwy, Fah rah rah rah rah rah rah rah rah...



"You'll shoot your eye out!" also applies to hunting season.

By Craig_adams on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 12:02 am:
First Mr. merkin: Your 10:44 post was just beautiful! I was posting quickly at the same time to catch the 11:00 clock news, so I just got back to read your well written statements. I bow to you.

Wayne: I'm coming to the conclusion that the world has passed You by. You're talking about a time that will never come again. For better or for worse in people eyes. I believe the majority of American's want what has currently been approved in schools.

The Ice Man will never again bring ice to home icebox's, no matter how loud You shout.


I think you are probably right but I wish we were back in the 60's when things were simpler, and the music was so much better! You have played a lot of it yourself through your years on the radio.I would hate to be a kid going to today's schools! We were better off back then.

Wayne: We can agree on that issue. But I can't help but think when Christmas was celebrated in schools, there were people holding their tongues, seething within.

ww sez: "I will take my orders from the church"

so this means you avoid approaching women during their periods, right?



I'd like to sneak into wayne's church and put a pentagram on top of the christmas tree there. anyone with me for this mission?

My dad, a retired pastor, was asked to say a prayer at my high school graduation. He did his best to keep it ecumenical. I'm sure there were many who were bothered by this but I never heard anything. My dad was one of those really cool pastors.

For me God is always in school. My 13 yr old daughter often says a silent prayer before tests. It's not that God is being taken out of schools or songs so much, it's just the mentioning of God's name. I think God is big enough to handle it.

When was the word GOD added to the pledge of allegiance??? It NEVER use to be there??? Or has it been removed???

I will agree with Wayner on one thing.... Things were easier back in the day...... And I'm talking about the early 70's....

Christmas is still celebrated in the Hillsboro public schools!!!!!! I don't know about anywhere else????

Wayner???? Last time you had kids in school??? Just curious...

An ex-poster here has a sister who is a public school teacher in Silverton. She felt pretty much forced to keep the religious songs in the "Holiday Program" last year, against her wishes. Huge issue.

Wayner would be happy in Silverton!!! Forcing his ways on others....
Right Wayne???

By Chris_taylor on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:18 am:
My dad, a retired pastor, was asked to say a prayer at my high school graduation. He did his best to keep it ecumenical. I'm sure there were many who were bothered by this but I never heard anything. My dad was one of those really cool pastors.

For me God is always in school. My 13 yr old daughter often says a silent prayer before tests. It's not that God is being taken out of schools or songs so much, it's just the mentioning of God's name. I think God is big enough to handle it.


[There is a statement that I have always liked: As long as there are tests there will be prayer in schools!]

/blue

By Trixter on Saturday, October 21, 2006 - 9:31 am:
When was the word GOD added to the pledge of allegiance??? It NEVER use to be there??? Or has it been removed???

I will agree with Wayner on one thing.... Things were easier back in the day...... And I'm talking about the early 70's....

Christmas is still celebrated in the Hillsboro public schools!!!!!! I don't know about anywhere else????

Wayner???? Last time you had kids in school??? Just curious...


{I have never had kids. but someday I may have them. I am glad Hillsboro celebrates Christmas. Is that where you live? My brother lives there!}


/blue

I'll get the color part figured out I hope!

maybe this works

I will agree with Wayner on one thing.... Things were easier back in the day...... And I'm talking about the early 70's....


the music was great back then wasn't it? I think what happened to Nixon ruined things a bit didn't it?

I am thankful for Wayne...takes a little heat of me for the crap I said a while back! Was mad at the world then and just picked one thing and slammed it without thinking....bad combination. Valuable lesson remembered just a tad late:
"Engage your brain in gear before your mouth"!

"Under God" was added to "The Pledge of Allegiance" in the early 1950's I believe, during the Cold War.

But it was our motto long before that. You need to look at the last verse of the Star Spangled Banner of 1814 and you will see that for yourself. Under God was added because of the Soviet Union. Some people want America to become the USSR apparently.

Interesting: Do you think America was more like the USSR before the 1950's, because we didn't have "under God" in "The Pledge of Allegiance"?

I don't think America was like the USSR at all until the ACLU and the extreme left has taken over the Democratic party. All of the lawsuits by the ACLU to remove Christianity from public remind me a lot of the way things were in the Soviet Union. Back before the 50's it was okay to study the Bible and have prayer in schools. Now if we mention God in our graduation class our mike was cut off. My own pastor told the story of where a valedectorian at my church was ordered by the principal not to mention Jesus. But the pastor told the girl to challange the principal on the basis of censorship because thats what is. The principal backed off!

Wayne - do you truly have any concept of how truly the Soviet Union squelched religion? How the hell you think America is anything near what the Soviet Union was in regard to governing religion, you are truly stupid.

Lenin abolished ALL organized religion, especially the two main religions of Russia (Russian Orthodox and Jewish at the time). Stalin took it further, killing some ten million of his own people, many because they tried practicing religion (Stalin was about as anti-Semitic as Hitler). Churches and synagouges were destroyed en masse, or turned into state buildings, from the Bolshevik revolution up basically right until Gorbachev opened things back up through perestrokia and glasnost.

If this was the Soviet Union, **YOU** would not be allowed to practice your religion. NOBODY would. So do us a favor and shut up about something you obviously know nothing about. You have no concept of what you are spewing.

This was an interesting thread.

Personally, I really like most of the christmas tunes. I really like solid SATB vocal arrangements of many of the religious ones. They are fun to sing and beautiful to hear as well.

IMHO, I can remember when the war on Christmas began. It started with: "Jesus is the reason for the season."

When I was younger I asked about that. Got a freaking ton of different answers. IMHO, the Christians are trying to leverage Christmas, just like they do everything else. This is wrong, if done in a way that denies others their freedom to worship or not as they see fit.

(I don't mean all Christians, just those that can't seem to follow any sane boundaries.)

This is the same old problem in a different package --or on a different front, if one is thinking in war terms.

Anyone here ever see the beginnings of south park? In it, Jesus and Santa have a fight! The famous question was asked of Brian Boitono (however you spell it): "Brian, who do you think would win in a fight. Jesus or Santa Claus?"

It's the original one that caused comedy central to pick up the idea and run with it.

The core question always comes down to this: If the religion is so damn good, shouldn't people be more than willing to give it a try without all of this pushy crap? Getting the word out, so long as it's not on the public dime, or not done in a way that denies others their freedoms is just fine.

However, the better way to go about it is to live the live that others admire. That's being a witness for Christ. (And my Sunday School teacher said so!) If you track this crap back to those starting it, you never find any of them actually living that life.

What you do find is a bunch of holier than thou, judgemental, self absorbed and intolerant people and it sucks.

These people are doing more harm to their cause than they know.

Wayne said: "Under God was added because of the Soviet Union. Some people want America to become the USSR apparently."

I said: "Do you think America was more like the USSR before the 1950's because we didn't have "under God" in "The Pledge of Allegiance."

Wayne said: "I don't think America was like the USSR at all"

Then I say to you Wayne, from what YOU'VE STATED, we don't need "under God" in "The Pledge of Allegiance." WE NEVER HAVE! This was just window dressing for the USSR as YOU brought up. That was 50 years ago! Where's the USSR today? It's time to correct The Pledge of Allegiance!

I don't think that anything referencing Jesus should be in our schools. It's teaching our kids that this way is the right way and if you're different, you're wrong. Well...let's face it: every family has a different idea about how to handle the concept of a god.

I don't think kids should be forced into something like this. Free will 100%!!! I believe in thought and reflection based on facts, not forcing one's chosen religion down everyone's throat. Like god references in Christmas music? Listen to it at home. Don't force me or anyone else who may practice differently to be exposed to your beliefs.

I'm in the same boat, but also am torn by the restrictions that come with it as well.

As a kid, I studied music hard. It's one thing that kept me in school during a time when I might not have made it, frankly. (That and computers and a wonderful teacher that made actually learning about them both permitted and fun!)

Enjoyed christmas tunes of all kinds. We performed them at school and in groups carouling around town. (Why don't we see that anymore?) I'm sure at least one of my music teachers was religious, but it was never pushed and nobody cared what songs we sang, so long as the production was good and we all had a good time.

BTW: He totally lived the life that made one wonder if he didn't know something we didn't. That's again a witness for Christ, not using religion as a tool for self-serving ends like legislating morality.

This is perhaps one of the greatest harms the pushy ones are causing today. Back then I remember hearing about Jewish holidays in grade school music class, along with lots of other music. In high school and college, I got to experience better music with some of it having christian religious meaning.

The most beautiful piece of music I ever performed was written by a local composer here. Our high school performed it because the teacher knew the guy. Tough tune, but wonderful.

Nobody cared that it was religous because the music came first! Those among us, who believed, I am sure considered it worship. Those among us, who did not believe, considered it really great music. No biggie.

I'm not sure that would fly today, depsite the core law and it's intent being exactly the same today. By getting pushy, trying to legalize what used to be permissive and acceptable blurring of the legal boundaries, the overly aggressive religious people today have turned what used to be subtle advocacy about religion into a blatent tool for their own ends.

This, more than anything, is what turned me away from all religion. I can place the blame right on these fucknuts. When one gets too pushy, there is gonna be pushback. Where that happens there is harm on all sides.

Time may have progressed, but we haven't in this regard.

"The invisible man in the sky always comes out last when competing with real people in real courts."

Sorry, Wayner.

Your boy, JC, loses again, big-time, kinda like in Iraq.

and Iran.

and Afghanistan.

Etc,...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Copernicus on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 9:39 am:
I don't think that anything referencing Jesus should be in our schools. It's teaching our kids that this way is the right way and if you're different, you're wrong. Well...let's face it: every family has a different idea about how to handle the concept of a god.

I don't think kids should be forced into something like this. Free will 100%!!! I believe in thought and reflection based on facts, not forcing one's chosen religion down everyone's throat. Like god references in Christmas music? Listen to it at home. Don't force me or anyone else who may practice differently to be exposed to your beliefs.


It sounds to me like you believe in censorship, don't you? Jesus can't be mentioned but you are okay if Mohammed or Buddah is? It hurts no one if Jesus is mentioned. We have had Jesus in our schools for 150 years but its the secular left that is trying for an atheistic America!

By Craig_adams on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 4:43 am:
Wayne said: "Under God was added because of the Soviet Union. Some people want America to become the USSR apparently."

I said: "Do you think America was more like the USSR before the 1950's because we didn't have "under God" in "The Pledge of Allegiance."

Wayne said: "I don't think America was like the USSR at all"

Then I say to you Wayne, from what YOU'VE STATED, we don't need "under God" in "The Pledge of Allegiance." WE NEVER HAVE! This was just window dressing for the USSR as YOU brought up. That was 50 years ago! Where's the USSR today? It's time to correct The Pledge of Allegiance!


Having under God in our pledge is a very appropriate thing to have. Lets keep the Pledge where it is. We have had God in either our pledge or our motto since the beginning of our country. Its the secular left that wants America to be a socialist atheist state. What you want it seems to me is just what the old Soviet Union was!

By Brianl on Sunday, October 22, 2006 - 10:32 pm:
Wayne - do you truly have any concept of how truly the Soviet Union squelched religion? How the hell you think America is anything near what the Soviet Union was in regard to governing religion, you are truly stupid.

I do and the Soviet Union was what America is becoming thanks to the lawsuits by the ACLU! Having America become an atheist state is not the answer. That seems to be what you want



Lenin abolished ALL organized religion, especially the two main religions of Russia (Russian Orthodox and Jewish at the time). Stalin took it further, killing some ten million of his own people, many because they tried practicing religion (Stalin was about as anti-Semitic as Hitler). Churches and synagouges were destroyed en masse, or turned into state buildings, from the Bolshevik revolution up basically right until Gorbachev opened things back up through perestrokia and glasnost.

Actually in the Soviet Union the only worship allowed at first was in churches and in homes. Isn't it interesting that its what you want to see here! Then that was banned too. We all know what happened there after that. Do you want the US to be the USSR?




If this was the Soviet Union, **YOU** would not be allowed to practice your religion. NOBODY would. So do us a favor and shut up about something you obviously know nothing about. You have no concept of what you are spewing.


If this were the Soviet Union you would be thrown in jail for making statements like that. You seem to be for censorship of everything you don't agree with

wayne is blasting conservatives and liberals alike. lets just ignore the troll people, shall we? Even GOD wishes we would just ignore him too.

Scroll on people.

Did anybody see the South Park where the kids all decide to ignore Cartman because he's such a dick, and he thinks that he's dead and his spirit will roam the earth until he makes up for all the wrongs he's done?

As I recall, He spent most of the show trying to atone for his past behavior.

Hmmmm.

Maybe your onto something here.

By Skeptical on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 12:22 pm:
wayne is blasting conservatives and liberals alike. lets just ignore the troll people, shall we? Even GOD wishes we would just ignore him too.

Scroll on people.


Who made you the spokesman for God? I know Him as my savior? Do you? And where have I blasted conservatives? I would say you would rather pick a fight with someone you don't agree with than disagree in a gentlemanly manner

GOD speaks to ME! And ignore I must.

Freaking hilarious!

God spoke to me today. Was a real whopper too. First he just hammered me for not believing as I should. (I did tell him I needed a sign to really commit!) Boy did I get one!

I'll tell you about that one later.

Anyway, he's a real Democrat at heart. Just can't understand why so many followers seem to just step off the path. What's with all the judging anyway? Sure is making him look awful bad. Overall quotas are down, angels are frittering about worried. Messy.

These jokers are outta control! Too damn bad they are already saved. He just knew Jesus just was not thinking with that get saved bit! Too many easy outs! The whole affair is going to make judgement day that much longer. Might have to expand purgotory past the original specs to hold all the wannabes until they are either has beens, and Satan can have those, or they finally atone enough to pass.

Dammit, they are just NOT gonna get the COOL HALOS though. That will teach them to abuse the son!

And the WARS, JUDGEMENTS and SIN all in his name. If it were cool, he would say Christ, but that's not really God like so he's going for the same old same old. It's so frustrating sometimes to be so powerful, yet unable to do a fricking thing all because of a few words.

Did you all know God is bound by his own word? Yeah, it sucks until he figured it out. What a bummer, having to wait for that darn rapture before actually being able to get things done! Who would have thought?

And Jesus! Man oh man what a mistake THAT was. Seemed like a really great workaround. But they hauled off and killed him! No COOL HALOS for them either!

So, it's full ticket time for everybody that matters. We need to settle the bad element down so we can all get back to real worship and true witness in his name.

FYI, pass it along on good authority!

Are you sure you talked to God? You know Satan is quite capable of disguising himself as an angel of light.

By Skeptical on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 3:13 pm:
GOD speaks to ME! And ignore I must.


You ignore God? that figures

yes.

Yes! I can see your point now, guys. There's no middle ground for Wayne.

"Under God" was added to "The Pledge of Allegiance" just 50 years ago to scare the USSR. If we remove it according to Wayne, it means we're a "Socialist Atheist State" just like that! If that's true, it won't be because of the Pledge change. It will be because of Bush's Constitution changes.

I'm Done with Wayne.

We remove Under God and America may as well be an atheist state. Its different than the 50's If you remember the 50s we could pray and study the Bible in our schools. The Constitution should stay the way it is with Under God. It hurts no one to say that.

The 50's were, like, 25 years ago man. They weren't perfect and no matter how much you want them back, they are gone. Live now. Or at least look to the future.

I wish we were back in the 50's. We had many more freedoms than we do now. Plus the music was so much better! Back then it was perfectly okay to sing carols in our school and nobody was offended like they are today.

Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world have mercy on us. Jesus, PLEASE deliver us from evil -- the one who uses thy name, and thy father's name in vain. Amen.

Hate to break it to you, but states are athiest by definition.

You can't have freedom of religion and have the state endorse religion at the same time. The government regulates matters of man. The church regulates matters of god.

The same law that says you can't leverage the public interest to promote your religion is the same law that permits you to worship it freely in the first place!

Why is this so hard?

No matter how much people want it (and a lot of people do!), they don't have the right to push it onto others.

Ask a black person or a woman how "free" the 50's were. That's ancient fucking history man.

I hate to break this to you but at the beginning of our country each of the colonies had their own church! The whole point of the 1st ammendment was to keep the government's nose out of religious matters. What the IRS is doing to churches is a clear violation of the 1st ammendment. I think you need to visit Washington DC and you will notice there are scriptural refrences everywhere. The Supreme Court has the ten commandments in it! Both it and the senate open the day in prayer. Jefferson had the Marine band play at his church services! All but 3 of our founding fathers were committed Christians. We never would have had the 1st ammendment at all if it weren't for that. We never have been an atheist nation. I hate to tell you this but the framers meant for America to be a Christian nation and I can prove it by their writings!

By Reinstatepete on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 10:41 pm:
Ask a black person or a woman how "free" the 50's were. That's ancient fucking history man.


I had a classmate who was a black woman who spoke at a church I went to. I asked her if things are better now than in high school. She said things are far worse now than they were then! Its probably because of gangs and drugs

You are really stupid.

"I had a classmate who was a black woman..."

hmmmm, what is she now, Wayne?


"Its (sic) probably because of gangs and drugs"

But of course, you didn't bother to ask her, did you? So you'll never know, will you? For all you know, she lives in Dunthorpe.

And not as a live-in maid.

I sure did ask her. For petes sake don't you read my posts? I asked her personally if things were better now than they were during the days of Martin Luther King? She said no.

I've never met a black person that says they would rather live under the 50's rather than today.

Wayne, clarify this statement;

"Its probably because of gangs and drugs."

Is that what YOU think or what SHE said? Which? be honest.

She did mention both. I heard her mention those as the reason things are worse now for blacks than they were then. I would say its dangerous to be black and living in a city like LA.

OK - then you can understand how your original post read like " I asked her, she said this and I made the leap to determine that she probably meant this too! ( Drugs and gangs )."

That's how it read. So when Mrs Merkin said " You never asked, so you'll never know." She was referring to that very last statement you made -the one in which you took your answer and ran with it. you didn't actually do that, accorning to you, but it is something that you usually do. So you can understand how that statement could be misread, eh? I did the same thing and thought the saem thing as Mrs Merkin did.

I don't think so. I was there when the woman spoke and heard everything she said. I asked the question to her directly and she said she felt safer during high school more than she does now. And why can't both gangs and drugs be the reason? You admit there are problems with that don't you?

It could be a number of reasons why she might've felt safer in high school, it just doesn't have to be drugs and gangs, which, by the way, is a pretty racist stereotype conclusion you leapt to. She may be more frightened because racial tensions might be more prevalent than some are willing to admit, or maybe she lives in a neighborhood that is experiencing gentrification and she fears she's going to be displaced soon. There are more things a black person has to fear than simply drugs and gangs.

This was awhile ago, but...I'm replying anyways.

Mr. Wayner,

I do not believe in censorship. But I do believe that religion should be a personal decision with yourself. That being said, I do not think that ANY religion should be shoved in ANYONE'S face. We shouldn't force Christianity's holidays upon anyone just like no one should shove Ramadan down someone's throat.

I believe in free will. Keep the churches out of schools. If a kid wants to know about it, there are other facets of life where he/she can acquire this information.

And I never said it's ok if Buddah and Mohammed is brought up. So please, don't stick words in my mouth.

If Jesus is brought up, so should Mohammed, and Buddah and the Space Gnomes from Guam if someone believes in that.

space gnomes have a bit more credibility here than you-know-who.

By Copernicus on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 3:59 pm:
This was awhile ago, but...I'm replying anyways.

Mr. Wayner,

I do not believe in censorship. But I do believe that religion should be a personal decision with yourself. That being said, I do not think that ANY religion should be shoved in ANYONE'S face. We shouldn't force Christianity's holidays upon anyone just like no one should shove Ramadan down someone's throat.

nobody is for forcing. Why is that so hard to grasp? I think its a good idea to learn about the different religions don't you? I mean we can celebrate both Christmas and Hannukah! What I object to is having a "winter solstace day." Can you understand that?

I believe in free will. Keep the churches out of schools. If a kid wants to know about it, there are other facets of life where he/she can acquire this information.


we had prayer and the Bible in our schools for 150 years. It only became an issue because of political correctness. If that sort of thing were voluntary would that still be a problem? I would hope not.



And I never said it's ok if Buddah and Mohammed is brought up. So please, don't stick words in my mouth.

If Jesus is brought up, so should Mohammed, and Buddah and the Space Gnomes from Guam if someone believes in that.

I repeat what I said. I favor learning about the different religions. We can do that by celebrating their holidays! We don't have to be so politically correct that we can't have any kind of freedom of religion.

By Bookemdono on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 3:30 pm:
It could be a number of reasons why she might've felt safer in high school, it just doesn't have to be drugs and gangs, which, by the way, is a pretty racist stereotype conclusion you leapt to. She may be more frightened because racial tensions might be more prevalent than some are willing to admit, or maybe she lives in a neighborhood that is experiencing gentrification and she fears she's going to be displaced soon. There are more things a black person has to fear than simply drugs and gangs.


I am sure there are other reasons but those were the two she mentioned. I was on Grand Jury Duty and the attourney said that 90 per cent of the crimes were drug related. I would want to live where it was safe wouldn't you?

Christmas shouldn't be called Christmas anymore. Think about it. Christmas literally means "Christ's Mass".

Let's change the Christmas Season to Winter Solstice. Anyone who belongs to a minority religion won't be offended. Instead of saying "Merry Christmas", say "Happy Winter Solstice" instead.

There's been a winter solstice long before Christianity if you want to talk about how LONG something has been in place! Read up on the druids and paganism...all of this existed. Even the Christmas tree is a pagan symbol of the winter harvest.

Tradition doesn't make it right. It makes it old...and possibly antiquated.

I don't necessarily agree with being super PC...it polarizes people more than integrates them into society. What I do agree with is that when it comes to children, religion should be a personal decision. Without influences from educators.

I don't care how long something has been done....

I have belief in free will. People will make decisions that they feel is right for them. If they break a law, they have to be taught that isn't the right way. But religion is different and should be a personal matter.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Copernicus on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:32 pm:
There's been a winter solstice long before Christianity if you want to talk about how LONG something has been in place! Read up on the druids and paganism...all of this existed. Even the Christmas tree is a pagan symbol of the winter harvest.

but we celebrate "winter solstace" as an umbrella type holiday. Its all about political correctness. We don't need that. We can celebrate the different holidays the religions have. we can learn a lot more that way than we can from any "winter solstace" kind of a deal.


Tradition doesn't make it right. It makes it old...and possibly antiquated.

I don't necessarily agree with being super PC...it polarizes people more than integrates them into society. What I do agree with is that when it comes to children, religion should be a personal decision. Without influences from educators.

I am okay with that. but we need not censor our faiths because of political correctness. They had someone on TV who was fired for wearing a cross on her chain! But of course other religious symbols were okay. Thats what I am offended by and thats what kind of a war on Christmas I am talking about.



I don't care how long something has been done....

I have belief in free will. People will make decisions that they feel is right for them. If they break a law, they have to be taught that isn't the right way. But religion is different and should be a personal matter.

religion is personal but we need not accomidate everybody either who is not of the same faith as mine! What bothers me is when my faith takes a back seat to the other faiths.I think we can't make religion too personal or there would be no churches allowed anywhere!

Name one specific situation in which your faith has been forced to take a back seat to another faith. Not one that has been made equal to yours. One that has made you feel like a second class citizen.

By Digitaldextor on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:01 pm:
Christmas shouldn't be called Christmas anymore. Think about it. Christmas literally means "Christ's Mass".

Let's change the Christmas Season to Winter Solstice. Anyone who belongs to a minority religion won't be offended. Instead of saying "Merry Christmas", say "Happy Winter Solstice" instead.


thats exactly what I am fighting against, WInter Solstace! We can learn about the different religions by celebrating the holidays just the way they are supposed to be. We learn nothing by being so politically correct that we can't celebrate anything. Thats probably why the learning in our schools has gone down. How can we learn anything if political correctness is our standard? I would say that prevents learning!

By Chickenjuggler on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 5:53 pm:
Name one specific situation in which your faith has been forced to take a back seat to another faith. Not one that has been made equal to yours. One that has made you feel like a second class citizen.


I gave one just now! There was a lady on TV who was fired for wearing a cross on a chain around her neck. But her company allowed other religious symbols. I would say thats taking a back seat. Should all religions be treated the same?

I saw the same TV Show, and it was said that ALL religious symbols were banned, not just the cross.

"I saw the same TV Show, and it was said that ALL religious symbols were banned, not just the cross."

Wayne, if that is true, does that not make a difference to you? It's not taking a backseat. It's making it so YOU don't get the front seat. Is that what you want? Do you think that room should be made to let your beliefs be shown outwardly and in all situations?

Its a huge difference. Should Christianity take a back seat to the other faiths? I would say thats what you want here! Thats the war against Christmas. Only the cross was banned. the others were okay. Should all religions be treated the same? Thats a good topic for a debate i think! Some don't think so apparently.

Should all religions be treated the same?

Yes Wayne, that's EXACTLY it. Think about that. That menas that nobody, even Christians, get to get the front seat. Nobody.

Can you not see how what was done was in the name of making things equal? You equate not getting to be first, as a Christian, with taking a back seat. And you know what? It IS. It's being put in the back seat WITH EVERYONE!

Right?

Right.

Are you for Christians having equal rights as everybody else? Thats what I am asking. Maybe I am asking too much. We can't have a cross around our neck where we work. Thats censorship I think.

Yes. They have the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else. They are equal, like anyone else.

Religion is a personal matter. If you are religious then great! Good for you, glad the faith is working for you. Works for a lot of people.

But it does not grant you anything anyone else wouldn't get.

*the reason you could not wear a cross at the post office was the public nature of it. Doing so would be using the public dollars to promote your religion.

Don't you ever get tired of the "public dollars" montra? It sounds like a broken record! Nobody is for that. I don't see how it isn't censorship that someone can wear a cross around her neck. Especially when she said on TV that other religious symbols were allowed that priveledge. That is her word not mine.

Nope. I won't get tired of it so long as there are religious nutballs trying to bend the rules in their favor.

It's not like they have any real claim to the truth. We've what a coupla hundred religions all claiming to be the one true faith?

Nobody is bending any rules here except the secularists who think we should all be so politically correct that we can't celebrate any holiday! Our framers meant for the USA to be a Christian nation. I can prove that with quotes from our forefathers. Do you want to see them?
All but 3 of them were committed Christians! we would have no 1st ammendment at all if it weren't for them.

If an employer wants to mandate a dress code, that is their business. If you don't like the rules, don't work there. Better yet, start your own business and where whatever the fuck you want.

Bull.

We either have a free nation, or a Christian one. The choice ended up being to form a free nation, not yet another non-free one where one religion is put above others.

That BTW, is exactly what Iraq is today. It's an islamic nation. The Islamic religion is deemed equal to the highest law of the land. Supreme. The Christians in Iraq can suck it for all the Iraqi government cares. That's not free Wayne. In fact, you and your beliefs would be second class citizens there for no good reason other than you don't worship from the same book the Iraqi government would prefer you to.

In fact, the many issues surrounding religion and government were one of the reasons for founding this nation in the first place. Going down this road brings with it all the problems we managed to solve. Why go back?

Our founders were influenced by the Native Americans, Pirates, their own experiences with European governments and other things that helped to shape the vision they had. They considered the laws of nature, existing common law and crafted rights of man as they understood them at the time.

They wanted all rights to be held by the people, save those the people granted to the government. That alone prevents the Government from endorsing a particular religion because all of the people would have to grant that right! No way in hell that would happen, even back then.

Equality, Democracy and Freedom are the core values here. If you are a true, warm blooded American, those three are the foundation from which all else is derived here.

If we are equal, than our religions are equal; therefore, we are not a nation of one religion in particular because the people are not a people of one religion in particular.

Either we have equality in this country or we don't.

Are you going to say that you are somehow entitled as a Christian? This nation is somehow more yours than it is for the rest of us? Your values are somehow more important or valid than others are? Perhaps you have more say or some special moral standing that makes you more substantial than other Americans are?

The whole Christian nation line is complete and utter bull shit, and anybody with even half a brain knows it.

John Adams and John Hancock:
We Recognize No Sovereign but God, and no King but Jesus! [April 18, 1775]

how is this for starters?

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Wanna bet? Check this site out and you will see otherwise.

"We the People" --'nuff said.

Been through this with just about every other Bush supporter that has posted here.

I'm not going to do it all again for you Wayne.

The Christians do not own this nation. They are one of many religions practiced here and have no more authority than anybody else does. Why? Because they lack any solid truth to their teachings, just like everybody else who is religious does.

Sorry, but you might feel better than the other guys after church on sunday, but at the end of the day you are just another American like the rest of us are. You point to a book for your authority, others point to a statue, star cluster, spagetti noodle, whatever...

You have no more claim to this nation, as a Christian, than anybody else does.

That's truth, undisputed.

Until you establish your religion to be somehow closer to the truth than the others, you are just a babbling idiot who happened to buy into too much of the sunday bullshit.

Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”

On July 12, 1804 at his death, Hamilton said, “I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me.”

"For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests." [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

"I have carefully examined the evidences of the Christian religion, and if I was sitting as a juror upon its authenticity I would unhesitatingly give my verdict in its favor. I can prove its truth as clearly as any proposition ever submitted to the mind of man."



I guess you need more proof.

Like I said, you are no different than any other religous person here. You think your faith is the one true one, just like everybody else does. You think your book is the right one, just like everybody else does.

That's why we call it faith Wayne.

If it were actually true, we would call it truth now wouldn't we?

Thomas Paine debunked all of this in "The Age of Reason"

Non Starter.

Let's try it this way...

I don't think having faith is a bad thing. In fact, it's a very good thing for a lot of people. Vital for society as a whole because we need to continue to explore potential answers to tough questions.

That's just who we are as people.

I'm not trying to devalue your faith. What I am trying to do is show you where the limits of faith leave off and truth begins.

We don't currently know whose faith is true, if any of them are true. This is why we don't have Christian anything in our law. We cannot make laws that define any faith as being different from the other ones without some basis for doing so.

Today we have no knowledge that can be used for that foundation.

Having Christians participate in the founding of America is not enough. --They knew it too, which is exactly why we do not have your claim written into law. The others who crafted this nation did not share their beliefs, thus they were left to the people to follow as they see fit.

THERE IS NO WAY TODAY TO ESTABLSH A SPECIFIC FAITH AS BEING SOMEHOW MORE VALID THAN THE OTHERS.

Barring some revelation that tells us Christians have it more right than others do, it's all just religion. We each pick and choose our faith, or lack of it, and move forward from there.

To say this nation is somehow owned by Christians does every American a great dis-service! What of your fellow Americans? Are they somehow less than you are because their faith is different than yours? Again, do you have some special entitlement because of the Church you happen to go to?

Of course not. Nobody does. And that's the whole point.

Americans are equal under the law. Our law applies to all of us or none of us. (Barring the recently passed and flawed Bush legislation that will be corrected and found both in conflict with existing law and the Constitution.)

The truth is you are an American first as far as other Americans and the law are concerned. The law of the land permits you to then be whatever religious person you want to be. This is true for all Americans. This also demands that all Americans show some tolerance for each others faith, whatever that may be.

Your faith may require you to believe you are Christian first. That's fine and good, more power to you. Perhaps we may learn you were right, but we don't know that today.

The freedom of religion we have in this country permits you to do that to the maximum extent possible. That's the beauty of the government our founders crafted! It grants all of us to explore matters of faith in the search for truth to our mutual benefit.

By claiming this is a Christian nation, you are basically saying that I must also be a Christian first. It's the same for Muslims, Buddists, etc... You are also saying that we know things to be true when we simply do not know enough to make that assessment valid.

That's not a claim you, or anyone else, has a right to make because you have no truth upon which to build that authority. It's also a selfish claim in that it's really all about somehow establishing the Christian religion as being greater than the others somehow when it really isn't.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Missing_kskd on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:22 am:
Let's try it this way...

I don't think having faith is a bad thing. In fact, it's a very good thing for a lot of people. Vital for society as a whole because we need to continue to explore potential answers to tough questions.

That's just who we are as people.

I'm not trying to devalue your faith. What I am trying to do is show you where the limits of faith leave off and truth begins.

We don't currently know whose faith is true, if any of them are true. This is why we don't have Christian anything in our law. We cannot make laws that define any faith as being different from the other ones without some basis for doing so.

Today we have no knowledge that can be used for that foundation.

Having Christians participate in the founding of America is not enough. --They knew it too, which is exactly why we do not have your claim written into law. The others who crafted this nation did not share their beliefs, thus they were left to the people to follow as they see fit.

THERE IS NO WAY TODAY TO ESTABLSH A SPECIFIC FAITH AS BEING SOMEHOW MORE VALID THAN THE OTHERS.

Barring some revelation that tells us Christians have it more right than others do, it's all just religion. We each pick and choose our faith, or lack of it, and move forward from there.

To say this nation is somehow owned by Christians does every American a great dis-service! What of your fellow Americans? Are they somehow less than you are because their faith is different than yours? Again, do you have some special entitlement because of the Church you happen to go to?

Of course not. Nobody does. And that's the whole point.

Americans are equal under the law. Our law applies to all of us or none of us. (Barring the recently passed and flawed Bush legislation that will be corrected and found both in conflict with existing law and the Constitution.)

The truth is you are an American first as far as other Americans and the law are concerned. The law of the land permits you to then be whatever religious person you want to be. This is true for all Americans. This also demands that all Americans show some tolerance for each others faith, whatever that may be.


I am all for tolerance and so are most Christians I know. My experience shows me that the intolerance comes from the other faiths not from mine. I am proud to be an American. I want to learn about the other religions. I have studied Islam. They seem determined to convert the whole world to Islam. There are many who are peace loving but there are some who are not. I learned from a Jewish friend that their version of the Old Testament is quite different from mine. What learning like that does is that it strengthens my own faith!


Your faith may require you to believe you are Christian first. That's fine and good, more power to you. Perhaps we may learn you were right, but we don't know that today.

Fair point. I think we all think we are right to some degree!



The freedom of religion we have in this country permits you to do that to the maximum extent possible. That's the beauty of the government our founders crafted! It grants all of us to explore matters of faith in the search for truth to our mutual benefit.


thats what I was trying to say and thank God I think you get it.



By claiming this is a Christian nation, you are basically saying that I must also be a Christian first. It's the same for Muslims, Buddists, etc... You are also saying that we know things to be true when we simply do not know enough to make that assessment valid.

That's not a claim you, or anyone else, has a right to make because you have no truth upon which to build that authority. It's also a selfish claim in that it's really all about somehow establishing the Christian religion as being greater than the others somehow when it really isn't.


I showed you already what the forefathers thought of the Christian faith and how important that was! They meant for America to be a Christian nation whether you want to admit it or not. I am sure they understood that there are other faiths. But they also knew that the values that the Judeao-Christian faith have are essential. Somehow we have gotten away from that and thats what bothers me a bit. I think that for once you made a thoughtful post! It shows that we are quite capable of discussing in a gentlemanly manner

So, Christians are better than others somehow?

Is that what you are trying to tell me?

Don't the Islamic people think their faith and the values that come with it are essential too? What about the Buddists?

If we have respect for all faiths, and we understand that we don't know enough to validate any one faith in particular, why then make an effort to promote the Christian faith in particular over the others?

Either you want to be on some little pedastal or not.

If you think you should be entitled some how, considered better than others some how, why?

If not, then the whole Christian nation thing is bunk, just like I said it was.

Which is it?

By Missing_kskd on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 11:19 am:
So, Christians are better than others somehow?

Is that what you are trying to tell me?


you are naive if thats what you are thinking that! We all are born sinners. We all have to deal with that sometime!

Don't the Islamic people think their faith and the values that come with it are essential too? What about the Buddists?


don't ask me I wasn't there when the country was founded. There would be no 1st ammendment at all if our framers weren't Christians! do you honestly think we would have any first ammendment if they were Islam? I doubt it.

If we have respect for all faiths, and we understand that we don't know enough to validate any one faith in particular, why then make an effort to promote the Christian faith in particular over the others?


for the billionth time nobody but the secularists are saying that.

Either you want to be on some little pedastal or not.

If you think you should be entitled some how, considered better than others some how, why?

If not, then the whole Christian nation thing is bunk, just like I said it was.

Which is it?
like my Mom said "don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up. I have a website here that I put to show you that our framers were Christian and intended America to be a Christian nation. I think thats something we need to deal with here. Like that or not thats the truth. America is not and never has been an atheist state!

http://www.eadshome.com/FoundersQuotesTutorial.htm

Here are more examples of how important religion was to our forefathers.

re: "don't confuse me with facts my mind is made up"

That pretty much sums it all up right there...show's over...move along...nothin' to see here.

Exaclty. Your mom did a great job of passing along her ignorance to you.

Born sinners?

Who the hell are you kidding? You are only born a sinner if you think you are! I don't think I am; therefore, I am not.

It's just that simple, unless you can show me where your view of things is actually true.

Wayne, labeling this nation a Christian one implies that we are all Christians and that we all should be supporting them as a matter of national policy. That's one big ass promotion and it would be on the public dime to boot!

It's also not true.

Do you have a problem labeling this an Islamic Nation? I'm sure if you ask them, they will tell you their values are essential. Why not put that label on, if a label is not promoting a religion in particular. Lots of muslims living here, why not?

Here's the deal.

I don't want to be a Christian. I don't believe one word of it. I don't want to live by Christian values because I don't think they are all essential. Don't get me wrong, a lot of Christians I know have great values, and I share many of them. That's not the issue however. The real issue is Christian values are not my values in particular.

If we buy into the idea that this nation is a Christian one, then we are basically saying the Christian values are the RIGHT values, otherwise why have the label at all right?

That's putting your beliefs above others Wayne. There is no other reason for pushing this issue. Every last person I've had this discussion with ends up saying at some point, "But I have the truth on my side!".

This is false. They have strong faith on their side, just as you have right here right now. You believe it to be true, want very badly for it to be true and if you surround yourself with enough like minded people it will seem to be true.

But at the end of the day, it's just not true.

Again, that's why we call these matters religious ones and label them faith instead of truths.

It's not just 'secularists' (hat tip to Bill O'reilly) saying this, it's everybody but the evangelicals! You don't hear anybody else saying it at all! Why? Because it does not match their faith, or they are good Christians who understand where the limits of faith are, or they are not religious at all.

Your mind is made up and that's fine. Call it a Christian Nation all you want to. I can call it the KSKD nation all I want to, but that does not make it so.

What you have put here is a website that has a bunch of cherry picked quotes that support the idea that some of the founders wanted this nation to be a Christian Nation. That's it. And that's dubious because their expression of essential values speaks on many levels, not just as an endorsement of their faith in particular.

Did you know equality is an essential Christian value? Well, if we are going to form a nation where it's citizens are equal under the law, then we need to allow them to worship how they please. That means keeping matters of faith with the church, whatever church that may be, if any, and matters of law with the courts.

What do I have on my side?

The law: Nowhere does our law endorse this nation as a Christian one. Nowhere does our law promote Christian values over other values.

To do otherwise is a violation of the law in that some of us would be more substantial, in the eye of the law, than others would be. That's not equality Wayne. It's not the Christian thing to do.

I've also got common sense on my side as well.

I've asked you why your Christian values should be held in higher regard than other values and you have not answered that question.

You yourself have said you don't want to force your religon onto anybody either. Labeling this nation as a Christian one does exactly that! Again, this is not the Christian thing to do is it?

Finally, I have truth on my side where you have confusion and dogma.

America is not an Atheist state at all. There is more religion here, per capita, than anywhere else in the world. Why is this?

Because America is a nation where we are all free to worship anything we want to, however we want to . The result is lots of people enjoying their freedom to worship!

That's a really great thing that a small but vocal group of evangelicals is trying to ruin because they want their faith to be the supreme, or ultimate faith. I'll bet you $20 you've heard exactly that in church. How do I know?

Because I have too and it's BS.

What we don't do here is promote one religon in particular over any other.

Saying this nation is a Christian Nation is saying we put Christians above others. That's not American, it's not in the law, and it's a violation of our citizens freedom of religion as well.

Show me, as a matter of law, where the United States is a Christian Nation or take your Bible, shove it some where dark and go home.

Is slavery a christian value?

I think where much confusion comes in would be the definition of true Christian values.

There would be values that come from Jesus Christ and God, then there would be values that have been made up by man over the years, labeled "christian values", and falsely attributed to a supreme being. It's gone on now for so long, it's difficult for anyone to separate them out.

I will be the first to say the loud and looney religious right would be the least qualified to clear up the subject. They're at the heart of the problem.

Even that definition is messy.

We don't have the values that come from Jesus and God on any sort of authority. The closest we have is essentially bob said Jesus said.

Hearsay.

Agreed on the loud and loony RR.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Deane_johnson on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 12:53 pm:
I think where much confusion comes in would be the definition of true Christian values.

There would be values that come from Jesus Christ and God, then there would be values that have been made up by man over the years, labeled "christian values", and falsely attributed to a supreme being. It's gone on now for so long, it's difficult for anyone to separate them out.

I will be the first to say the loud and looney religious right would be the least qualified to clear up the subject. They're at the heart of the problem.

I have to tell you I was a bit offended by that remark. There are a great many of us who are right wingers. I am one and I am proud of it. what the left wants to do is censor everyone they don't agree with. There was no need for that comment! Many of us voted for Bush. That is why there is such hatred for us. The anti God secular left is no better than we are.

Translation " Hey! I am loud and loony and I take issue with getting called that in public. We should be united and secretive and not tip our hand!"

Don't worry Wayne. It's not like you have a great poker face. We know you got nothin'.

Fold.

Translation: you are fooling yourself if you think your views are better than mine.

Wayne, where you and I differ is that I think religion should be kept out of politics and politics should be kept out of religion.

I resent Bush making decisions to appease the loud and looney right wing of the party. If there are religious people who disagree with stem cell research, let them preach against it, let them educate others, but leave it out of politics.

If you are offended by my term "loud and looney religious right", then so be it. I probably won't change and I will probably use it again sometime. It goes back to my belief that people should be able to view their religion as they wish, but don't try to push it on me. I'll make my own decisions about religion. And, I won't try to push mine on anyone else.

By Deane_johnson on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 2:10 pm:
Wayne, where you and I differ is that I think religion should be kept out of politics and politics should be kept out of religion.

where we differ is that religion should never be kept out of politics. Our framers were devot Christians and never intended for us to stay away.



I resent Bush making decisions to appease the loud and looney right wing of the party. If there are religious people who disagree with stem cell research, let them preach against it, let them educate others, but leave it out of politics.


that statement was offensive I am afraid. Christians always have been involved in politics and always will be. What do you want us to do? stay at home so the Democrats can win?

If you are offended by my term "loud and looney religious right", then so be it. I probably won't change and I will probably use it again sometime. It goes back to my belief that people should be able to view their religion as they wish, but don't try to push it on me. I'll make my own decisions about religion. And, I won't try to push mine on anyone else.

Well I appreciate that and I will not push on anybody either. I would hope that sharing what I believe is not what you would consider pushing. I am afraid that there some leftists who are such believers in censorship that thats what they want

I will not push on anybody either.

Keeping your religion in politics is pushing. Though if done right, it can easily be ok.

Declaring this nation to be a Christian one is big ass pushing period.

Our founders owned slaves. Should we as well?

Yes. I get to pick first.

By Missing_kskd on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 5:40 pm:
I will not push on anybody either.

Keeping your religion in politics is pushing. Though if done right, it can easily be ok.

Declaring this nation to be a Christian one is big ass pushing period.


what do you consider "religion in politics?"
Do you mean that Conservative Christians should be allowed to vote? Should we be allowed to run for office? I am not sure what you mean here.We have had Christianity in government ever since the beginning.

If you have some time to listen to an interview with the Rev. Jim Wallis about the subject "Can Faith and Politics Coexist", check out this URL:

http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/godspolitics/2006/10/jim-wallis-audio-can-faith-a nd.html

It's public radio in Minnesota and Jim is in studio taking questions from listeners and the host. This guy really understands both sides of the political spectrum. He gives dignity to those of different faiths and denominations and many who don't have faith or are more secular in their beliefs.

It's not quite an hour long plus the radio station was having a pledge drive so you will need to fast forward through that if you wish.

I would encourage anyone to listen because Jim offers solutions not political or religious rhetoric. He's intelligent, honest and deeply concerned about this worlds poor and how we can affectively deal with it, along with the issues like Dafur and domestic policies.

Getting back to the topic, "War on Christmas":

Should "White Christmas" be banned from public schools? Its not a religious song. However it does have "Christmas" in the song's title.

Does it matter that the composer of "White Christmas" was Jewish?

Good question!

Digital-

I personally think we have far more important issues than what music gets played at Christmas time in our schools. I think we have created a division that really is more subjective than objective.

BTW- good to see you again.

Should school children sing Jewish songs to celebrate Yom Kippur?

I enjoy the dreidel song. Can we add that to the curriculum?

Just for Wayne:
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man” - Thomas Jefferson

"It is not to be understood that I am with him (Jesus Christ) in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist; he takes the side of Spiritualism; he preaches the efficacy of repentance toward forgiveness of sin; I require a counterpoise of good works to redeem it. Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others, again, of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being. I separate, therefore, the gold from the dross; restore him to the former, and leave the latter to the stupidity of some, the roguery of others of his disciples. Of this band of dupes and imposters, Paul was the great Coryphaeus, and the first corruptor of the doctrines of Jesus." --Thomas Jefferson

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law." --Thomas Jefferson, Feb 10, 1814

"The appropriation of funds of the United States for the use and support of religious societies, [is] contrary to the article of the Constitution which declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment.'" -- James Madison, February 27, 1811

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." --Benjamin Franklin

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." --Thomas Paine

"The United States of America should have a foundation free from the influence of clergy." --George Washington

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." --James Madison

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." --Benjamin Franklin


"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law." --Thomas Paine

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --John Adams

Wayne, keep your religion out of my government, period! I'll tell you something I have told many a communist, if that's the kind of government you want, go live in a theorcracy.

I keep telling you that is impossible. You need to visit Washington DC and tell me how much religious refrences there are there. I have the feeling you want Christianity to be banned don't you?

By Digitaldextor on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 2:55 pm:
Getting back to the topic, "War on Christmas":

Should "White Christmas" be banned from public schools? Its not a religious song. However it does have "Christmas" in the song's title.

Does it matter that the composer of "White Christmas" was Jewish?

I noticed they ignored your question. It has the word "Christmas" in the title. But does it matter that the song is not about Jesus?

Benjamin Franklin: | Portrait of Ben Franklin
“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

-------------
Where is your quote from Franklin from? Some liberal blogger?

Wayne,
You do understand the difference between god and religion don't you? And the difference between god and jesus? One can acknowledge god without accepting either organized religion or the alleged deity of jesus.

I do. I have studied the different religions. I know there are different religions. What aggrivates me is the way the politically correct has okayed every religion in public but Christianity. Somehow Christianity is the only religion in the world that violates church and state separation. No other religion can do that in the minds of liberals. thats my complaint.

...crickets...tumbleweeds...

yada...yada...yada...?

nada...nada...nada...!

"Somehow Christianity is the only religion in the world that violates church and state separation."

Wayne, IN THIS COUNTRY **ALL** religions violate church and state separation. That way, people can be free to practice ANY AND ALL religions without fear or retribution.

Do you want to be like most of the Middle East ... including Israel? A country whose basic principles and all laws are based on Islam (or Jewish) teachings? Do you want to be like Iran? If we start invoking Christianity into our government, THAT is the slippery slope that we face. Government giving its allegiance to one God and ignoring the other religions and the constitutional right of its citizens to practice those religions could put us on a slippery slope down to a fundamentalist totalitarian state.

As an American, I am not willing to accept that.

The ONLY war on Christmas is the one that FAUXNews has been ARTIFICIALLY pumping to the public!
The war on Christmas started when the EXTREME RIGHT owners made the Christmas holiday 97% of their profits for the year. If it wasn't for Christmas 80% of retail would go into the shitter.
When Christmas starts on October 8th that's sad! Christmas has become a COMMERCIALIZED thing! The SOUL of Christmas has been soled out to PROFITS by RICH EXTREME RIGHT money seekers!

The war on Christmas was started by the extreme left. They don't want any school or store to have any reference to Christmas. We can't say merry Christmas or sing any carol with Jesus in it at our school. would you rather we not have a holiday on December 25th? Thats the only way we can eliminate Christmas completely. Thats what you seem to want.

Wayne, IN THIS COUNTRY **ALL** religions violate church and state separation. That way, people can be free to practice ANY AND ALL religions without fear or retribution.

Brian thats just not true. Students are required to pray to Mecca 5 times a day in some schools. And yet someone who reads a Bible during a lunchbreak will be sent home. And why does our town square allow a minorah and a crescent but not a manger? How does that not violate SOCS?

Do you want to be like most of the Middle East ... including Israel? A country whose basic principles and all laws are based on Islam (or Jewish) teachings? Do you want to be like Iran? If we start invoking Christianity into our government, THAT is the slippery slope that we face. Government giving its allegiance to one God and ignoring the other religions and the constitutional right of its citizens to practice those religions could put us on a slippery slope down to a fundamentalist totalitarian state.

As an American, I am not willing to accept that.

you are asking too much if you want the government to have nothing to do with Christianity. It sounds like you want absolute C&S separation. But I have been to Washington DC and thats just not happening. I noticed there are scriptural references everywhere. The Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments in its building, did you know that? I noticed scriptures in the Capitol Hill too. The Senate and the Courts open each day in prayer. We have senate chaplains don't we? Jefferson had the Marine band play at his church services and nobody complained about that!

"would you rather we not have a holiday on December 25th? "

Personally, yes. I hate the holidays, and not for the religious meaning of them. I hate the overcommercialization of them, and the expectations of family members nobody can ever attain spending thousands of dollars.

If we celebrated as is suggested in the Bible, I would have no problem with that at all. We don't though.

>>Students are required to pray to Mecca 5 times a day in some schools. In the U.S.?
>>someone who reads a Bible during a lunchbreak will be sent home.

As usual, no links or source citations of wild claims -- presumed to be made-up unless proven otherwise.

Try visiting the town square sometime and tell me where the manger is. tell me if you notice a Moslem crescent and a Minorah. You see only Christianity violates C&S separation.

"They don't want any...store to have any reference to Christmas."

Hot Damn! Stores? Who knew?
People, Did I miss this in the news somewhere?

Where am I going to buy all of Baby Merkin's "holiday" crap?

Obviously nobody told the Hallmark stores, I was in there yesterday, and they had it all out on display, right there in PUBLIC!!!

Shockingly, many other stores also had the same disregard for this new development. Even before Halloween! I must say I was also shocked yesterday that there were remnants (75% off) of the pagan Halloween items clearly visible to the NAKED eye!

And as a Native American, I am totally offended by Columbus Day and Thanksgiving, as well. Who do I talk with about this sacrilege?

And "Town Square"? What Town Square? Beaverton Town Square? Maybe I could find a "minorah" (sic) and a crescent (wrench?) at Freddies.

(OK all, I'm sorry, I nibbled the bait. Back to biting my bleeding tongue)


One Day at A Time, right?

I'll repeat my question:

'Should (the song) "White Christmas" be banned from public schools? Its not a religious song. However it does have "Christmas" in the song's title.

Does it matter that the composer of "White Christmas" was Jewish?'

Absolutely Mrs M.

Digital: I don't think we should be banning any songs from schools. Same for books and other elements of culture.

At the same time, our system of government does not provide for religous endorsements.

So, I'll propose a trade:

Songs permitted, along with some other things given a solid course in comparative religion, philosophy and critical thinking is mandatory for HS graduation.

IMHO, presenting both does nobody any harm and would easily negate any promotion.

Why do we have Thanksgiving day? Isn't that a religious holiday too? Why doesn't that bother anybody? Its just Christmas that the secularists want to stop. What about Easter? Thats an even more of a Christian holiday than Christmas and yet nobody complains about that!

By Missing_kskd on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 3:26 pm:
Absolutely Mrs M.

Digital: I don't think we should be banning any songs from schools. Same for books and other elements of culture.

At the same time, our system of government does not provide for religous endorsements.

So, I'll propose a trade:

Songs permitted, along with some other things given a solid course in comparative religion, philosophy and critical thinking is mandatory for HS graduation.

IMHO, presenting both does nobody any harm and would easily negate any promotion.

that sounds fair to me. Why not allow carols to be sung voluntary somehow? We can have an elective class on religion that would allow things like carols and Bible readings. That way nobody who doesn't want to doesn't have to participate.

"We can have an elective class on religion that would allow things like carols and Bible readings."

There's at least another 128 hours in the week (168 in the summer!) that one can do that. On their own free time, where ever they desire.

You can go to Mormon Seminary before or after school, they're usually within walking distance of many schools.

Or do it during lunch, off of school property. You can even sit in your car and worship Rammstein, or smoke weed and listen to Paul Harvey five days a week.

I love America! Plenty of choices for all!

Dah!

"Students are required to pray to Mecca 5 times a day in some schools. And yet someone who reads a Bible during a lunchbreak will be sent home. And why does our town square allow a minorah and a crescent but not a manger? How does that not violate SOCS?"

Maybe in a private Muslim school they are required to pray to Mecca 5 times a day. Find me a public school that makes it students do that. I dare you. Please find it and give us the proof. Just like you will learn from the Bible in a private Christian school. THAT IS WHERE IT BELONGS IF YOU WANT YOUR CHILD TO GET A RELIGIOUS EDUCATION! It does **NOT** belong in public schools. Period.

And the Jewish people pay the city for the permit for that Menorah to be in the town square. Just like the Muslim people pay to have the Crescent. Just like the gay folks pay the permit to have their day in the sun. Just like the Skinheads pay to have their anti-Semitic, anti-black people rally. Just like ANY group pays to have their function. The city, as far as I know, CANNOT say no to a group, no matter what the group is or what they stand for, as long as they obtain all the necessary legal licenses and documents and obey the law.

"you are asking too much if you want the government to have nothing to do with Christianity. It sounds like you want absolute C&S separation. But I have been to Washington DC and thats just not happening. I noticed there are scriptural references everywhere. The Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments in its building, did you know that? I noticed scriptures in the Capitol Hill too. The Senate and the Courts open each day in prayer. We have senate chaplains don't we? Jefferson had the Marine band play at his church services and nobody complained about that!"

I don't want absolute separation of church and state like you seem to think. I just believe that if you are going to have it, you need TOTAL inclusiveness. I KNOW the Supreme Court has the Ten Commandments in its building and there are scriptures all around the place. We also have non-Christian Senate chaplains. Jewish ones and Muslim ones ... to reflect those serving our country.

Jefferson also had an adulterous affair with one of his slaves and had offspring with her. I don't see YOU bashing on THAT pervert!

TOTAL inclusiveness

I think that's the key right there.

Doing that one thing alone would reinforce the seperation. All religions are equal, as we are equal. Young people need to realize religion is perfectly ok. Not a thing wrong with it. But they need to see this for all religions as well as seeing they can choose no religion as well, or non in particular, thus keeping it personal.

That's a big part of why I don't like the song ban. I'm pretty sure that's some sort of pushback from some religious people trying to push the boundary.

It's not right to deny culture and insight as a solution to these problems.


Who knows? Perhaps a solid civics education would mitigate this and improve the quality of our democracy at the same time. The focus in most schools today is very watered down. Does more harm than good... It's almost as if they don't want the students to really grok their rights --only their responsibilities.

And the Jewish people pay the city for the permit for that Menorah to be in the town square. Just like the Muslim people pay to have the Crescent. Just like the gay folks pay the permit to have their day in the sun. Just like the Skinheads pay to have their anti-Semitic, anti-black people rally. Just like ANY group pays to have their function. The city, as far as I know, CANNOT say no to a group, no matter what the group is or what they stand for, as long as they obtain all the necessary legal licenses and documents and obey the law.


my whole point is that if you are going to allow Jews and Moslems to have their exhibits but not Christians in downtown Portland how in the world is that "total inclusiveness?" Is that fair to deny Christianity but not other religions?

Jefferson probably had an affair or two during his lifetime. Plus he owned slaves. I have read his version of the Bible and he sounds like he was one of the 3 I mentioned earlier who were not Christians, although he did believe in God.

If the Christians want to pay the fees and obtain the permits and licenses to have a nativity scene downtown, I am sure they CAN. I am not suggesting excluding Christianity, I just think we need to include EVERYONE.

If you mean everyone than that means Christians too! I don't think the money part is the issue here. The politicians think that the only faith that violates C&S separation is Christianity!

Religion is a bunch of crap. Look what it causes.
Child Rape. Wars through history since the start of the planet right down to this horrible blunder by the Idiot G.W.B. Religion is the single biggest scam in history. Yeah he's commin back.Right. The best branding ever. Phil Knight cant hold a candle to Jesus H Christ. (who in his lifetime never heard that name ever spoken!)
True folks. Have a good day in Church. I will be sinnin.

Religion doesn't cause that. People are the reason that happens.You can't blame God for all of life's problems. Men will fail you but God won't. Have a good Sunday yourself.

You know it is really kind of hypocritical that when everything is fine then nobody wants religion in our schools at all. But take an event like the Columbine shooting and suddenly there are people everywhere praying.....shrines setup for the dead....pastors and greif counselours talking with the students. Why is it only acceptable when a tragedy occurs but not in everyday life? Why is that? Why do people turn to GOD when bad things happen and shun him when all is good? Just think about that for a couple of minutes before your counter-attacks.
FYI...I feel that in this day and age and with the amount of diversity in beleifs that religion really should be left out of our education system. If parents value that then they can always take their kids to a christian based school....which by the way are popping up all over the place in vancouver. If you try to keep religion in school someone will always lose. Christian teaching (not schooling) is free at all local churches and you can devote as much time as you want to it or none at all if that is your choice. That is the whole issue though isn't it.....the right to choose. So how can you pick one religion and apply it to every school kid.....they should have the right to choose there religious direction and not have it decided for them. I am torn on this issue but have to decide in favor of keeping religion out of public schools.

But come on...Christmas....then do away with Halloween....Easter....St Patricks Day....Thanksgiving.....and on and on and on....Let the Holidays alone and parents if you do not beleive then please do educate your children on your beleifs but lets allow our children to be children for a little while.....they grow up to fast already....why take away the fun for them?

well said!

In the immortal words of Elvis Presley:

"Thank you. Thank you very much"

Wayner said>>>
The war on Christmas was started by the extreme left.

HORSE Fin SHIT!

"Why do people turn to GOD when bad things happen?"

Because they are weak and need some way to explain a random event.

Hey pete...Just because someone turns to God when something bad happens does not make them weak.

When my sister died at 3.5 years of age, my folks turned to their faith and those in the faith community for support and strength. They believed God worked through those people to help our family. My folks were not weak. The 6 months leading up to my sister’s death was filled with trying times. There were the other children to take care of, hospital visits, household chores and work yet to be done during those horrible months leading up to her death. Hardly the platform for weak-minded people.

Statistics and research has shown that nearly 75 percent of marriages that lose a child end in divorce. My folks have been married now for 55 years. Staying married that long takes strength.

However Pete I will cut you some slack because we have discussed this type of thing before and I know your post was not meant for me personally.

Of course I don't mean every single person, but let's face the facts, we as humans need an explanation for everything, and sometimes it's a pretty convenient one to fall back on. We're a victim of our own intelligence sometimes.

Fair enough.

By Reinstatepete on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 4:57 pm:
"We're a victim of our own intelligence sometimes."

I agree that sometimes people tend to overthink things that are really quite simple. But I gotta say that "We are a victim of our own ignorance most of the time."

Ignorance is OK though.

A wise man once said it is ok to be ignorant because ignorance can be taught, it is not ok to be stupid because you just can't fix stupid!

I heard that ignorance was bliss.

As a matter of fact he is on tour right now...RON WHITE the "You Can't Fix Stupid Tour"

"I heard that ignorance was bliss."

Did someone hack Wayne's password and post that?

Clearly!

If ignorance is bliss the Washington DC must be a very blissful place!!!!

Wait on second thought there must not be any bliss there at all....if ignorance can be taught and these people have all had extensive schooling then I guess it would have to be full of stupid people you can't fix!!!

chris, there is one thing about the whole faith thing that is troublesome . . . too many people have bought into the "100% belief in faith" thing that they're unable to think on their own.

for instance, what if super-compelling evidence surfaced that made it clear without a doubt to anyone alive that there is no god. Too many people would be unable to cope with the aftermath -- leading to depression and even suicide.

It is far better to take the moderate route and be a more independent thinking individual -- something that would impress a God, if there is one, and also help make one a more civilzed person if God, or the lack of one, is depending on us to handle matteres wholly on our own.

or as one of my favorite bumper stickers says ...

"Dear God, please save me from your followers."

Skep

First off I have 100 percent belief in my faith in God. However I don't call myself an evangelical, I consider myself ecumenical.

I do question authority when it needs to be questioned. Even Jesus questioned religious authority of his day.

I have never bought into the "Jesus is the answer" kind of theology because it cheapens what Jesus is really all about.

Here's something I read today:

"History will judge societies and governments - and their institutions - not by how big they are or how well they serve the rich and the powerful, but by how effectively they respond to the needs of the poor and the helpless."
- Cesar Chavez

Many non-believers see only the idiots like Haggard. There is an image of conservative evangelicals that is negative to them. However there is a huge number of Christians who choose to go about the business of faith quietly and effectively. You don't hear about them but they are doing some mighty things.

I am so grateful for a man of faith like the Rev. Jim Wallis who speaks for those of us who believe the religious right has hijacked our faith and have taken a political stance that the only important moral issues today are gay marriage and abortion. I also believe these issues would not be important to Jesus because he sees the bigger of hypocrisy, legalism and pride, which we have seen in abundance with this current administration in my opinion.

Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers.”

Thats not a very fair statement at all. Many conservative Christians are wonderful people that we think highly of. If any group has been hijacked at all its the Democrats by the secular left. They used to be a more centerist party than they are. But Move on.org has changed that. Nowdays nobody is liberal enough for the Democrats.

I would agree that there are many conservatives that don't speak for Haggard. I still want to know what he believes. There are a number of preachers like him with large churches who have become ecumenical. I think the danger in that is that the truth gets swept aside because we have to accominade everybody. Somehow the truth that we know has to be preached.

It's always so interesting to reflect upon Chris's reasonable and thoughtful posts.

Chris, I forwarded the Wallis info to the rest of my family earlier, they're perusing it with interest.

I hate the religious right (yes, I hate 'em with a passion!! I HATE THEM!!! yes, hate, h-a-t-e), but I'm glad for those who choose to go about the business of their faith quietly and effectively, people such as Chris. Chris, I would be upset too if I were you, at what the religious right has done, the message they are sending, and the blatant misuse of religion overall. They've done a great disservice to the good folks.

I'm gonna have to fess up here too. I battle with the exact same emotion Reinstatepete is! I'm pissed about it too, because I find very few excuses valid for hate. Hating is on par with killing in my book. You just really don't want to go there.

Anybody willing to do whatever it takes to enforce their morality onto others is just too low for any measure of decency however.

It's difficult to express just how offensive this behavior is to me. Nothing I've posted here in my worst moments even comes close. (Always thought I was holding back, that's just how bad it is!)

It's not an anti-religion thing at all with me. This is why I've turned completely away though. I've been burned badly enough on this that supporting it beyond tolerance and support for it in terms of our mutual freedom is just not an option for me.

Guess it's time for yet another Chris warm fuzzy! Way to go, setting a shining example of all that can be good about religion. It's also nice to know the effort I personally go through to support our rights in this regard are totally worth it.

By Reinstatepete on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 7:05 pm:
I hate the religious right (yes, I hate 'em with a passion!! I HATE THEM!!! yes, hate, h-a-t-e), but I'm glad for those who choose to go about the business of their faith quietly and effectively, people such as Chris. Chris, I would be upset too if I were you, at what the religious right has done, the message they are sending, and the blatant misuse of religion overall. They've done a great disservice to the good folks.


I think you hate everybody you don't agree with Pete. Thats really sad that your life is so filled with hate. Forget about "religious right". Thats not even true. More Christians are Democrats than Republicans. I think you need God in your life. I would say without him your hate will be toward everybody and not just toward conservatives.Thats what hatred does. It builds up inside of you

Mrs. Merkin-

I hope your family finds the Jim Wallis information useful.

No Wayne, I don't hate everybody I don't agree with, I only hate people like you.

Let's have a WAR on Wayner and all those that won't let anyone think what they want and live there own lives without the Church telling them what to do.

You are doing a wonderful job of describing yourself and Pete. You are the only ones who won't let anybody disagree with you. Your problem is you expect the whole world to think the way you do.

Actually it's us wanting to preserve the freedom for everyone to think how they want to think. Yes, that includes you and your dogma Wayne.

Remember, your group is the one with the big list of do not dos.

(Read everything your Pastor has ever published online last night, BTW. Congrats for attending all those weekend services and repeating the dogma here, sometimes word for word.)

It all comes down to your bigotry and general ignorance. You want to not get the reaction you do here. That's essentially asking permission to be a jerk --as if you have some entitlement the rest of us don't.

Not gonna happen here buddy.

Nobody is bigoted except you and the rest of the left. As long as you and the rest of the left want to be that way we will never be able to communicate in a gentlemany manner. It looks to me like from the other threads that you seem to be trying for that and thats commendable. But we don't accomplish that by insulting everyone in the world you don't agree with. Your points are much more effective without insults and swearing, believe me, my friend.

Actually, my points are valid regardless. They may not be effective in your view, but there is a strong case for this being true regardless of how nicely they are presented.

I'm not taking back bigot, jerk or ignorant. You are all three. The good news for you is this does not have to be the case! All your choice.

What I am trying for is a balance overall that does not harm the forum as a whole. If I had my way, I would just hammer it home until either you got tired of it or learned something. These things you say about your religion and how we are a Christian Nation and we should recognize the Bible as being the source of law and authority are right out of the dark ages.

There may be a lot of people sharing this view, but that does not make it a humane view, nor a valid one. It's as offensive to me as profanity is to you.

It's not agreement I seek. It's rational discussion. You don't yet appear to grok the difference, but maybe you will someday.

All you need to do is make your views supportable. You cannot do this with fallacies, use of general labels and other things that are false on matters of form only. That's the ignorant part.

Your opinons about gay people and our rights as people and citizens of this nation are discriminatory in that your view does not acknowledge our fundemental equality as humans. That's the bigot part.

The jerk part is where you whine about it, blame others for their poor reactions and pound the drums to get this forum to run your way so you don't have to feel bad or become indignant over perfectly reasonable reactions to your speech here. As if you are just some nice guy getting treated like crap.

The reality is that you are not really that nice of a guy and that's why you are getting treated like crap.

I'm perfectly willing to be nicer about things, but that requires an effort on your part in like kind.

Want to communicate in a gentlemanly manner?

Great!

Take a nice long trip to www.criticalthinking.org and learn what fallacies are and how to avoid them in your discussion. Follow that with the nice course on ethics presented there and we might be able to talk.

As it is right now, your speech is so filled with labels, stereotypes and self-supporting arguments it's difficult to even know what it is you really mean half the time.

The other biggie is your complete unwillingness to accept that your faith is just faith and not known truth. I'm not saying it's bad, only that you cannot say things like, "We are all born sinners and we have to deal with that." and expect anyone with half a brain to take you seriously.

Do this enough and people, who would otherwise be rational, get pissed off. Now that they are pissed off, the nice rational reactions are not so rational and nice anymore.

Allowing you to believe what you have said here is ok harms me and my family now and in the future. There is no real reason to be nice about it.

It's not ok to discriminate, it's not ok to tell other people what to do in the form of laws when you have only a belief to support it, and it's just not ok to expect respect and candor in dealings with others when you don't give them the same respect as beings in like kind.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Missing_kskd on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 1:16 pm:
Actually, my points are valid regardless. They may not be effective in your view, but there is a strong case for this being true regardless of how nicely they are presented.

Your points have plenty of spin in them.
a spin is just a different way of looking at the same fact. Your spin is not better than mine and I wish you would stop saying it is. Thats what causes the conflict to begin with


I'm not taking back bigot, jerk or ignorant. You are all three. The good news for you is this does not have to be the case! All your choice.

/blue{then you don't really want to debate in a gentlemanly manner do you? I see some dishonesty here}


What I am trying for is a balance overall that does not harm the forum as a whole. If I had my way, I would just hammer it home until either you got tired of it or learned something. These things you say about your religion and how we are a Christian Nation and we should recognize the Bible as being the source of law and authority are right out of the dark ages.

what do you want me to say? That we are an atheist nation? That certainly is not true. I am getting a bit tired of the claim that it is.


There may be a lot of people sharing this view, but that does not make it a humane view, nor a valid one. It's as offensive to me as profanity is to you.



It's not agreement I seek. It's rational discussion. You don't yet appear to grok the difference, but maybe you will someday.

it sure looks to me like you are dead set on my agreement. Its the only kind of a "rational disscusion" you seem to want. Can we disagree and be reasonable or am I asking too much?

All you need to do is make your views supportable. You cannot do this with fallacies, use of general labels and other things that are false on matters of form only. That's the ignorant part.

I have often supported my views. The problem is not the support but your acceptance of that that doesn't support your own views.

Your opinons about gay people and our rights as people and citizens of this nation are discriminatory in that your view does not acknowledge our fundemental equality as humans. That's the bigot part.

There is nothing bigoted about rejecting gay marriage. I would say if gays could marry that would be discrimination. We need to have marriage between men and pets as well as polygamy if you want gay marriage. We would have no choice but that if you want to enforce equal protection. I am amazed that you fail to understand at all my religious objections here I don't hate gays I just don't want them to marry.

The jerk part is where you whine about it, blame others for their poor reactions and pound the drums to get this forum to run your way so you don't have to feel bad or become indignant over perfectly reasonable reactions to your speech here. As if you are just some nice guy getting treated like crap.
you whine too. You do that by swearing and insulting. You need to realize that you can make your points much more effectively without that. You see communication is a two way street. I can't do it all by myself. It seems like thats what you want

The reality is that you are not really that nice of a guy and that's why you are getting treated like crap.

the reality is that not everyone in the world will agree with you. Thats the issue here. nothing else matters but that. Don't say you don't care because you prove you do everytime you insult or swear.

I'm perfectly willing to be nicer about things, but that requires an effort on your part in like kind.

Want to communicate in a gentlemanly manner?

Great!

Take a nice long trip to www.criticalthinking.org and learn what fallacies are and how to avoid them in your discussion. Follow that with the nice course on ethics presented there and we might be able to talk.

Is that some kind of a liberal site or something?

As it is right now, your speech is so filled with labels, stereotypes and self-supporting arguments it's difficult to even know what it is you really mean half the time.

I would say you do the exact same thing everytime you call me ignorant or stupid and then try to prove it by using profanity.



The other biggie is your complete unwillingness to accept that your faith is just faith and not known truth. I'm not saying it's bad, only that you cannot say things like, "We are all born sinners and we have to deal with that." and expect anyone with half a brain to take you

and what in the world is wrong with saying that? I would say you need to read the Bible and see what it says about that matter. Without faith its impossible to please God. Thats Hebrews 11

seriously.

Do this enough and people, who would otherwise be rational, get pissed off. Now that they are pissed off, the nice rational reactions are not so rational and nice anymore.

Allowing you to believe what you have said here is ok harms me and my family now and in the future. There is no real reason to be nice about it.

It's not ok to discriminate, it's not ok to tell other people what to do in the form of laws when you have only a belief to support it, and it's just not ok to expect respect and candor in dealings with others when you don't give them the same respect as beings in like kind.

nobody is discriminating except the secular left who is pushing gay marriage down the throats of the rest of us conservatives. The left needs to stop its pushing of its views on the rest of us. You will do a much better job of presenting your views if you back off from the profanity or the insults. I do notice an effort by you to drop the profanity and I appreciate that. But calling somebody ignorant needs to stop. We can't have any kind of a meaningful dialouge as long as that kind of language continues.

You are the most ignorant person I've encountered in a long time. In fact, I think you're borderline retarded.

(back to waiting and ignoring again)

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What the heck...long posts seem to be the trend these days!!!!

There was a point to that....these long posts on bitching and moaning are really getting old and "BORING" as that song would be if you sang it. Now if you drank them as you take them down that would be a different story. Come on guys....quit acting like kids here. Thats goes for all of you....me included....AND KNOCK OF THESE FRIGGIN PERSONAL ATTACKS!!!!!

Thanks Jo. I will try to do the same

Dear Wayner.....

You are doing a wonderful job of describing yourself. You are the one who won't let anybody disagree with you. Your problem is you expect the whole world to think the way you do.

This weekend, I've seen Christmas trees on the top of cars, Christmas music and decorations in the mall, people giving extra to charities 'cause it's Christmastime, and folks already seeing relatives and doing special stuff 'cause it's Christmastime.

So, if there is indeed a war on Christmas, then Christmas is winning that war as easily as if Santa Claus attacked France.

Civil post, Trixter.
I knew you could do it.

Herb

I also appreciate your civil post Trix. But if you still think there is no war on Christmas consider this:




The ACLU Targets Christmas



The ACLU is at it again. With an outrageous boldness that only they could muster, the ACLU has, once again, set their sights on Christmas celebrations. In their never-ending quest to completely eradicate all things religious from public life, the ACLU’s latest lawsuit is an all-out frontal attack on the freedom of speech and the free exercise of religion.



Let me ask you—when did a children’s Christmas program become “an illegal activity”? When did the nativity story and Christmas songs become unconstitutional? This is the outrageous and dangerous charge the ACLU has leveled against a school district in Tennessee. A children’s Christmas program has been deemed to be an “illegal act” because of the ACLU.



This week, our senior attorneys at the American Center for Law and Justice are working on this latest ACLU case. The ACLU is absolutely determined to censor Christmas. They have sued the Wilson County School System outside of Nashville, TN. We represent several school officials and teachers who have been charged with engaging in what the ACLU calls “illegal acts.” The ACLU claims that the plaintiffs have been harmed, injured and “suffered irreparable damage” through the Christmas program because of its “Christian themes and songs.” The ACLU will then ask for these actions be declared “unconstitutional and illegal.”



It gets even worse. The plaintiffs and the ACLU allege that several kindergarten students role-played a nativity scene of the birth of Jesus—and had the audacity to sing “Away in the Manger” and “Joy to the World.” According to the ACLU, these songs are exclusively Christian in nature because they celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ and are, therefore, inappropriate. School programs that include a live nativity scene and the singing of songs like “Away in a Manger” are common throughout the United States and, indeed, around the world. Thousands of school students will be participating in similar programs this year. The ACLU has, once again, shown its desire to engage in censorship.



Of course, if the ACLU wins this case, it would set a precedent from across the nation. This is precisely why we have engaged some of our most senior lawyers to defend school officials in this important case. Make no mistake about it—the ACLU will not stop with this lawsuit. They may come to your town and target your school. Their continued attempts to loosen the threads of our religious heritage and chip away at the foundation of our freedom is never-ending.



We, at the American Center for Law and Justice, will fight for religious freedom and freedom of speech this Christmas. We are standing with the school officials in Wilson County and with concerned students and parents. We will vigorously defend the rights of these students to engage in free speech on public school campuses. We are not going to sit back and let the ACLU, the Ghost of Christmas Past, remove the joy and significance of this holiday season.



Today the American Center for Law and Justice has launched a nationwide campaign entitled “Keep HIM in Christmas.” We want to make sure that Jesus is at the center of this holiday. We want to keep HIM in the nativity scenes, keep HIM in the music, keep HIM as the focal point—and not allow the ACLU to operate as our nationwide censor.

Be afraid!! Be very afraid!!!

I hope the ACLU wins.

If they win that won't be the end of it, Pete. They are determined to wipe out Christianity.

Good, go ACLU then!

Too bad Jim Varney is no longer with us.

The article posted by Wayne comes from the American Center for Law and Justice which was founded by Pat Robertson. Pretty much all you need to know.

Translation:

The American Center for Legislating Morality.

Pat Robertson is a lunatic!
That guy has serious mental issues and needs to be fixed!

I like him. Jay Sekulow started the ACLJ. There is also the Thomas Moore center for law which is also an outstanding group that fights the American Criminal Liberties Union.

Pat Robertson is crazy.

Pat Robertson is a crazed lunatic terrorist!

He has nothing to do with ACLJ. And he is a good man.

Good man that wants people assassinated???

LUNATIC!

He belongs behind bars!

His only crime is being a conservative.

WW>> He [Pat Robertson] has nothing to do with ACLJ.

This item from the website of Regent Law School at Oral Roberts University:
"Founded by Dr. M.G. "Pat" Robertson in 1990, the ACLJ serves as the launching pad for pro-liberty, pro-life and pro-family causes throughout the nation, engaging in litigation and providing legal services for clients."

As of November 2005 Robertson was still the unpaid president of ACLJ according to this article from Legal Times, as republished by The Rutherford Institute, another conservative law organization similar to ACLJ. For those who care to wade through it, the article is critical of ACLJ chief counsel, Jay Sekulow's high salary and his handling of finances.

An aside regarding The Rutherford Institute, while they do take a lot of stands that many posters on this board would disagree with (including myself), they have also taken Bush and the Republican leadership, and others to task regarding issues like increased government invasion of privacy, the Patriot Act, electronic voting irregularities, and excessive enforcement of certain FCC rules in conflict with the 1st Amendment.

So what? Robertson is a good man and so is Bush and we need the ACLJ to stand up to those bullies at the American Criminal Liberties Union. And the Thomas Moore law center is standing up to them too. The ACLU is determined to elimate religious freedom in America. Did you know its founder is a Communist? Thats true!
And Jay Sekulow is president of the ACLJ, not Robertson

. The ACLU Was Founded On Noble Intentions:

The Truth: One of the great myths of the 20th - and now 21st - century is the belief that the American Civil Liberties Union was an organization that had a noble beginning, but somehow strayed off course.

That myth is untrue. The ACLU set a course to destroy America – her freedom and her values - right from the start.

From its very beginning, the ACLU had strong socialist and communist ties. As early as 1931, the U.S. Congress was alarmed by the ACLU's devotion to communism. A report by the Special House Committee to Investigate Communist Activities stated

The American Civil Liberties Union is closely affiliated with the communist movement in the United States, and fully 90 percent of its efforts are on behalf of communists who have come into conflict with the law. It claims to stand for free speech, free press and free assembly, but it is quite apparent that the main function of the ACLU is an attempt to protect the communists.

Roger Baldwin and Crystal Eastman founded the ACLU in 1920 along with three other organizations dedicated to the most leftist of causes. The histories of these two individuals belie their claims of patriotism and respect for the Constitution.

Baldwin openly sought the utter destruction of American society. Fifteen years after the founding of the ACLU, Baldwin wrote:

I am for Socialism, disarmament and ultimately, for the abolishing of the State itself … I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class and sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal.

While the ACLJ website doesn't seem to mention Robertson anywhere, including the history page, Sekulow is repeatedly identified as ACLJ "Chief Counsel," not as president.

I find that curious that the ACLJ doesn't mention Roberts anywhere.

We had Christmas in my schools, and I still grew up to be liberal and support all religions, so where is the harm in keeping it there now? If we can't have Christmas, schools should not be given a two-week break.
Chtistmas is a Christian holiday so let the schools celebrate it as that, with also teahing about Ramadam, Hannuka (sp) and Kwanza.

Imagine that, Wayne being proven DEAD WRONG once again. Do you ever get tired of people using your own words to prove you wrong? Is there any reason anyone here should believe a word you say?

PS. Kwanza is a bullshit holiday and has no business being celebrated in school.

No I haven't been proven wrong at all.Didn't you read my post at all about the lawsuit the ACLU filed? I think you think there is no war on Christmas because you hate Christianity.



This week, our senior attorneys at the American Center for Law and Justice are working on this latest ACLU case. The ACLU is absolutely determined to censor Christmas. They have sued the Wilson County School System outside of Nashville, TN. We represent several school officials and teachers who have been charged with engaging in what the ACLU calls “illegal acts.” The ACLU claims that the plaintiffs have been harmed, injured and “suffered irreparable damage” through the Christmas program because of its “Christian themes and songs.” The ACLU will then ask for these actions be declared “unconstitutional and illegal.”

You've been proven wrong in bright daylight!

Let's recap, shall we, since someone among us has a short memory.

Listenerpete says: "The article posted by Wayne comes from the American Center for Law and Justice which was founded by Pat Robertson."

Wayne says: "He has nothing to do with ACLJ."

Randy then pipes in: ""Founded by Dr. M.G. "Pat" Robertson in 1990, the ACLJ serves as the launching pad for pro-liberty, pro-life and pro-family causes throughout the nation, engaging in litigation and providing legal services for clients."

There you go. You were proven DEAD WRONG.

Wayne Says:I think

Don't....you suck at it so don't even try!!!!

Muck...Muck...Muck you very much!!!!


999...They Call Me The Anti-Wayner...Pitchfork in hand ready to Muck out the CRAP!

"PS. Kwanza is a bullshit holiday and has no business being celebrated in school."

How racist can you be Pete, every holiday has to begin somewhere. Just because this one is less than 50 years old does not make it unreal for African Americans.

I'm not a racist at all. I just don't think Kwanza should be put in the same class of holidays or celebrations as Christmas or Hanukkah. I believe it is included in the "group" by people who are overly PC.

If schools are going to celebrate Kwanza, what's holding schools back from doing the same for Ramadan? You have to draw the line somewhere, and Kwanza doesn't make the cut.

You sure made a racist comment Pete.

So you think Kwanzaa is in the same category as Christmas, in regards to historical and religious signifigance and number of people celebrating? You're willing to give Kwanzaa equal footing alongside Christmas? I doubt it, and if so, then you're just as much a racist as I.

Kwanzaa was made up about 40 years ago to give blacks something of their own to celebrate here in the US. According to a marketing survey conducted by the National Retail Foundation in 2004, Kwanzaa is celebrated by 1.6% of all Americans. Black civil rights activist Reverend Jesse Lee Peterson wrote, "...the whole holiday is made up! You won't find its roots in Africa or anywhere else." Is Peterson a racist too?

Bottom line, I have nothing against Kwanzaa, let's just not make it out to be something bigger than it is.

Nobody is saying that, Pete, but that was a pretty racist remark you made there.

Let's all say:

"Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays."

That covers all bases, including New Year's.

Right on. When does Hanukah start?

What is racist about my comment? That I said Kwanzaa was a bullshit holiday? IT IS!! It was made up out of the blue! Read the link I provided, ace.

One is hardly racist for taking issue with an event created to supplant Christmas and which few African-Americans themselves celebrate.

This is the rare time that reinstatepete and I agree.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16474

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42019

Herbert M.

I'm all tingly inside.