http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/node/28176

This is Rachel Maddow at her best. There is a transcript, so you can skip the video. I usually play these things while reading the transcript.

Well, it's becoming increasingly clear we didn't torture for some "save millions of lives, right now, or else" scenario. This was political.

Prosecute them. Please.

YES!!!

I love both Olbermann and Maddow, but when it comes down to serious dot connecting Rachel is the one.

As Sen. Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI) has said (I think on Ed Schultz's show), Dick Cheney is looking very much like a defendant. He even has his daughter, Liz, on cable shows defending him.

When it acts like a duck, quacks like a duck...

So far they haven't laid a glove on Cheney, but they've just about managed to take Polosi out.

Au contraire, the conservatives want to make this all about her, but she is not the one that approved the use of torture. Matter of fact, she is the one that is for a full investigation.

Former U.S. Sen. Bob Graham says that he wasn't told by the CIA that water-boarding being used either. He makes copious notes on everything he does every day.

If they haven't laid a glove on Cheney, why is acting so much like a defendant?

That's on the dodge list actually.

Classic Republicans in denial. Hmmm... what number is that one?

(goes to look it up)

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/3/30/487163/-Things-Republicans-Will-Do-W hen-Branded-as-Such

(And yes, I contributed that. I get interesting e-mails about it ALL THE TIME. Funny as hell.)

Looks like a number 1 to me, right off the top. Good case for some others too.

Man, I need to update that list from the PDXRadio latest and greatest. Today is as good of a day as any!

Here's the up to date list, BTW.

Dodger damn near got an entry, but missed it by just a little on form. Hoping he steps up and really hammers it home to make it distinct from the others!

I love a growing collection of these.

1. Subject change (Nixon, Abortion)

2. False comparison (Like computers and cars, only it's politics and sex --or something goofy, that just does not present as goofy at first blush.)

3. Claim of too many opponents

(This one debunked for online venues as participants have all the time they need to research and consider their next point of discussion --they can collude too)

4. Silence (Ignore the impending point to be taken. Essentially, it can be used another day. Acceptance of that loss means loss of that point for a greater discussion in the future. Very potent for online venues)

5. (first seen from Deane) Claim to either be a member of, or opponents of discussion being members of club, with said membership somehow required to complete what is otherwise a non-rational conclusion.

6. Claim of overall subject and or implications of subject complexity being greater than scope of discussion; therefore, it's all a waste of time. (Herb and Deane on that one too.)

Both complex and subtle variations on the, "you wouldn't understand" theme.

7. Transformation of rational point at hand to emotional one.

8. The bible, which is a specific manifestation of subject change. Warranted because it's often used in tandem with the transformation bit. The next two on this list seen in this mess often too.

9. Redefinition of common words. This happens either via manipulation of time lines (historical), or via authorities, whose scope is limited to a sub-set of generally accepted authorities. (non peer reviewed, or non common, word use)

10. Personal attack. This varies too. Sometimes it's an attack on an authority. That form is kind of an indirect attack, as in, "you listen to that nutbag?". I'm lumping all of these together in one group. Don't know why, just am.

11. Obsfucation. (however you spell it) This might be redundant, given the word redefinition one above. I see this as half-answers, like if you have the same point of view, the answer is solid, but if you don't, it leads to questions and framing that puts non-aligned beliefs on the defensive.

12. Excess verbosity. (KSKD, CJ, Littlesongs, others) Hammer them really hard, hoping the problem will go away. It's both therapy and a dodge in one fell swoop!

13. Evoke unreal boundary. Most often seen with indignation. This is a variation on "too complex" and "you wouldn't understand", in that it limits the scope of discussion where it would not otherwise be limited if things continued to be rational. Once this has happened, discussion is no longer rational.

14. Implied claim that personal knowledge is a requirement to establish a point at hand, without actually stating it, and without that actually being the case.* (Deane)

...so that clearly means a #10 too.

Lots of room yet. You just watch. Print them out, and watch the TV and check them off. Whenever you see Republicans squeal, you can just go and play GOP bingo.

I'm so tempted to add, "But Rush Limbaugh Made Me Do It" as the next item...

What do you all think? Is that actually a dodge?

--->as always, the names in the list don't leave PDXRadio, and they are a compliment. Regardless of whether or not we agree, I can totally appreciate a dodge well done.

Dear Missing:
Not wanting to let you down, let me go straight to the point:

TORTURE THOSE F'ING TOWEL HEADS WITH WHATEVER IT TAKES TO FIND OUT WHATEVER YOU WANT TO FIND OUT THEN POP THEM BETWEEN THE EYES AND DUMP THEM IN THE NEAREST LANDFILL.
Does that cover it?
Waterboarding is torture? Geez I used to do that to my sister in the wading pool back in the 3rd grade.
Let's see some real frickin torture. What a load of pansies this admin is. What a load of fairies this board is. Where's freakin Jack Bauer when you need him?
I'll take ANY torture of a prisoner over ONE American lost life any day of the week. The Geneva Convention rules have been broken by EVERY country in the world (except France, as they haven't won or even participated in a war since they lost to themselves in the Revolution) so why doesn't the USA?
So, let's John Wayne up and kick some raghead, dothead, nappyhead, heck, throw in Brits for crying out loud, ANYONE caught acting against this nation, and twist their eyeballs out until they talk.
Ya, that's what I'm talkin bout.

That's why the people you support LOST TWO ELECTIONS.

Dodger,

John Wayne got a deferral to avoid fighting in WW2 and supported the House communist witch hunt. I think we need to pop YOU between the eyes and put your head on a pike as a warning to anyone who suggests hysterics as a solution to world problems.

Jack Bauer? Nothing like a little fiction for you! How about Superman or Batman?

It doesn't work, Dodger, honest professionals will tell you that. Besides its against the Constitution - Cruel and unusual punishment.

One of the biggest reasons why the insurgency grew and spun out of control in Iraq is because the Iraqis were handled your way.

Dodger is a racist redneck hick. Thank god people with his view are in the far extreme minority of opinion.

So, let's John Wayne up and kick some raghead, dothead, nappyhead, heck, throw in Brits for crying out loud, ANYONE caught acting against this nation, and twist their eyeballs out until they talk.
Ya, that's what I'm talkin bout.



WOW!
The neo-CONers are doing it up right! The EXTREME RIGHT is showing their true colors.....

Proud 23 percenter!

Hey now, I was just trying to live up to missing's expectations.
Do you REALLY know if I am right or left or center or just plain a-political?
Consider yer chains yanked. Nice job falling in. LOL!

Oh, and Vialitogy or whatever it is, I RESENT being called a hick.

"...(except France, as they haven't won or even participated in a war since they lost to themselves in the Revolution)"

Now THAT, my friends, is funny. True, and funny.

Pretty simple choice to me...keep Americans safe and alive or get blown up, heads chopped off, or God forbid...get nuked. We've got some big world bullies here that needs to get it's wings clipped. It really comes down to this...us or them alive...it's our choice...we have the power.

Dodger, I've known you to blow a fuse when you get YOUR chain yanked.

Broadway, there are always bullies in the world, since when is it OUR job to be the world's policeman?

We already are on the trail of bin Laden and the pesky pro-religion Taliban shielding him. We're also involved with Pakistan by default.

We went broke chasing down relatively minor threat Saddam.

So Kim Young II, our problem? Genocide in Africa, ours? Wayward eastern European nations?

Do you support a major tax hike to rid NK of nukes? A levy on churches to keep the Taliban at bay?

Broadway,

Simple question.

Are we better than them?

If so, in what way?

"Are we better than them?"

We don't saw people's heads off.
We don't recruit children to blow themselves and innocent people up.
We don't chop people's hands off.
We've made a few major contributions to the advancement of mankind.
We've created a productive society that invents things for mankind.
We've jumped in and saved the world from brutal madmen a couple of times.
We don't stone women to death for having an affair?

I don't know, are we better than them? What measure do you want to use?

HELL YES WE ARE BETTER THAN THEM!

This is not even up for discussion, given we deal with our own issues. We need to prosecute, because the torture was POLITICAL people.

There was no doomsday scenario linked to some of the torture. There was no doomsday scenario linked to the violations of Americans privacy either.

Everybody comes back to that, like it's the easy "let's just forget about it and move on" option.

If it's an end of the world as we know it scenario, we've got options --and I would bet those might involve torture. If I were the agent in the room, and I KNEW, I would consider it, knowing I would be judged. But, if my actions were just and true, that judgement might not go badly, and if it did, I would live with it.

We've got documented situations where agents refused, because they knew the scene was not just and true. That's the core element of the war crime right there.

That's the bar people. That is how it is supposed to work.

What we've got is Cheney the douche manupulating things, ordering torture for his own ends, and letting other people take the fall. He deserves to be in a cage, which is what this whole thing is about.

We are far less safe with those kinds of people in charge than not. If he sees that cage, then we let the world know we don't roll that way, and future douches will reconsider pulling the same stunt.

"because the torture was POLITICAL people."

I guess the individuals we have released that have gone back to the battlefield to kill Americans are just doing it for POLITICAL reasons. Sorry, I missed that. That makes it OK.

Thank God we had an individual like Cheney there to keep us safe. I realize that sitting in the pine forests of Oregon sniffing the fine mountain air makes these things seem a bit distant, like off in some fairy tale, but the folks waiting to strike the US, like they did on 9/11 aren't as cuddly as you'd like to make them out to be.

Translation: "Shoot them all, let God sort them out."

This is why your party lost Deane. Took it in the SACK HARD, repeatedly. Gonna happen again too.

We don't play it that way.

"This is why your party lost Deane"

No it isn't.

Yesterday is not ours to recover, but tomorrow is ours to win or to lose.
Lyndon B. Johnson, address to the nation, November 28, 1963

We can draw lessons from the past, but we cannot live in it.
Lyndon B. Johnson, December 13, 1963

Yes it is.

Republicans lost because they showed themselves to be corrupt right to the top, willing to embrace the idea that our leaders are not accountable to us, inept, socially regressive, hostile to the interests of ordinary Americans, among other things.

There are very complete lists all over the place. I've more than enough support for my opinion on that.

With me, it all comes down to the Bush administration flat out refusing to even allow an enduring public record of their actions and why. That just reeks of guilt. It's not that we all need to see it moment by moment, but it needs to exist to account for their use of the power we granted them.

That is how it works. If we don't do that, then our law, our society, our position in the world is an arbitrary thing --we are self-serving. That, in and of itself is no crime of course! We honor that, and encourage that.

But, it is a crime when we do that at the expense of others, without some solid justification. No such justification exists, but for the hand waving and fear mongering seen to this day coming from the ignorant, scared, jaded and weak.

And let's look at those quotes more closely. I've not seen them before today:


-how can we win the day, when our actions are not just and true?

-how can we draw lessons from the past, when we lack the strength to examine it?

Thought so.

Republicans lost because Bush did a poor job of being a Republican.

Most Americans, except for some liberal tree huggers, couldn't care less about Gitmo and torture. They just want things handled.

Well, I think I might argue that is true.

So then, why not prosecute those lousy Republicans then? They are quite lousy after all. What's the problem?

I've no problem at all with real American conservatives. We need them, just as we need other ideological influences. That's the melting pot deal. Embracing that in the sphere of robust and uninhibited public discourse is part of what makes us great. It's the political version of what we did with industry.

Powerful stuff! Makes me proud actually.

Really you agree with me more than you are willing to present here. I think you know it too, but you've got something in the way of that. Pride, fear, simple inhibition, apathy, jaded, something.

Edit: After some consideration, I believe this is simple sport. It works like this:

I think you will take the stand you do. And you will be strong about it too. It takes a concentrated effort, over time to deny that, and that's the sport. This is a road well traveled for you Deane. Other roads are an option, and you will travel the one you will. Others are expected to do the same, meaning when you have a discussion about that road, the only loss is failure to present your road in the best possible light. Why not? You've nothing to lose, but some game.

"most americans"

Well, just about everybody I've ever conversed with wants us safe. I want us safe. I don't know very many people who think a draconian gulag style of doing it is the right thing to do.

I already articulated the bar on that. We don't make torture something that's codified in the law. That comes down to a personal value judgement, and accountability for it afterword. It's a very high bar that comes with extreme risk. It's there so that we work as hard as we can to make damn sure we do things right.

And then there is the simple observation that either we are able to deal with this and be Americans, or we declare the great experiment a failure.

Which is it Deane?

First of all, I don't accept the fact that Cheney did anything wrong.

Secondly, if we prosecute every outgoing administration that we disagree with, pretty soon no one will do anything. Sometimes, there are some tough choices to be made, like Harry Truman dropping the A-bomb. Should the Republicans have prosecuted him for killing a bunch of civilian Japanese?

Should Bush have prosecuted Clinton for leaving our troops in harms way in Mogadishu? Where does it end?

I predict Obama is too smart to pursue this Cheney witch hunt. Unfortunately for Nancy, she isn't smart enough and will likely destroy herself over it.

As a civic matter, we have spoken at the ballot box. I suspect that speech is not over yet.

As a criminal matter, do you accept that our elected leaders can be held to account criminally, or not?

Kings, or Presidents? Which is it?

"As a criminal matter, do you accept that our elected leaders can be held to account criminally, or not?"

Protecting America is not a crime.


Kings, or Presidents? Which is it?"

We have the King thingy now, let's see how it works.

That's a non answer. And it's worth pointing out that the Bush administration worked very hard to set that expectation, didn't they?

Which is it Deane?

I don't expect an answer, BTW. The question itself is game over for your position.

Unfortunately for Nancy, she isn't smart enough and will likely destroy herself over it.

One can only hope.

Ask the 3000 dead on 9/11 how safe Cheney kept them.

If our leaders break the law, they need to be held accountable. Personally, I hope Cheney does time, he deserves it for ordering torture and he deserves it for outing a CIA agent.

And the GOP lost because Bush showed Americans what REAL Republicans are all about...THEMSELVES.

Broadway wrote:
Pretty simple choice to me...keep Americans safe and alive or get blown up, heads chopped off, or God forbid...get nuked. We've got some big world bullies here that needs to get it's wings clipped. It really comes down to this...us or them alive...it's our choice...we have the power.


If we stopped kissing Isreal's ass and stopped buying mid east oil, they would leave us alone.

How bout you Broadway? Are you another conservative who drives a gas guzzler?

"stopped buying mid east oil"

I assume you ride a bicycle?

interrogation techniques also briefed to and approved without objections from/by NancyDemPaloosi,Pelousyfrom SF!!!??according to recent reports!!!!!

and stopped buying mid east oil, they would leave us alone.

You don't honestly believe that do you??? I think you are a LOT smarter than that.

Until we (everybody that is not Islamic) are no longer "infidels" (or alive) the whacko Islamists (they are not the true followers of Islam) will continue with their terrorist ways.

We've got lots of outs for oil. Getting after those would be an EXCELLENT STIMULUS that would feed a lot of people, reduce our oil need, and result in tech and process know how we could export. As long as the jobs are kept here with sane trade policy, jumping on that train would do us a lot of good.

Yep. They will be terrorists.

However, it's not a kill us or them deal.

This is the chance that Bush fucked up so badly. When we were hit, we had all the support we needed. Every nation that mattered looked at us and said, "how can we help?". Had we demonstrated real American leadership at that moment, terror would be seriously marginalized from then on.

Instead, Bush decided to leverage the incident for control of oil, wealth from a war economy, and the rest is history.

It will take most of Obama's first term to curb the hate a whole lot of the world has for us, for validating that terror.

We need to follow through with that effort. Focus our fight on terror and build the alliances and policy we could have then, while standing strong and supportive of anyone that suffers terror.

This problem trancends our borders. We need to be safe, and other nations need to be safe. That means working together against anyone that would do terror, and not validating it with a bunch of dumbass moves.

I would be careful about lumping people of Islamic faith in with the nut-bags. Faith is faith. All good. Terrorists are terrorists. What religion they use to justify it is of no consequence. The fact that they would to terror is.

The last thing we need is a Jihad. Terror is a criminal problem. We deal with it like we do other criminal problems. When that doesn't work, we use the military.

As long as we are actually addressing terror, and not making moves for political gain, the rest of the world will see that and join the fight.

Too damn bad Bush didn't grok that. That's his legacy as far as I am concerned. EPIC FAIL

>>Are you another conservative who drives a gas guzzler
I've owned 4cyl cars for most of my life...current one...04 Corolla that gets near 40mpg freeway. I'm not your gun/big SUV owner type conservative...sorry...actually I would term myself a "Christ Follower" but thats another thread.
I just pray that Americans keep safe on our own soil...under any President being WISE!

interrogation techniques also briefed to and approved without objections from/by NancyDemPaloosi,Pelousyfrom SF!!!??according to recent reports!!!!!

MORE METH! 62 you should stop rehab now and start on even more meth!!!!

"stopped buying mid east oil"


F that! How can I drive my new 5.7liter HEMI Dodge RAM 1500 without oil? Give me oil or give me death!

I was hoping that "We are better than them" means more that "We're not as bad as they are".

What makes us better than them is that we're going to prosecute those responsible.

Broadway,

Do you have any internal conflict being a "Christ Follower" while being a supporter of those that torture others?

Amus, that is a hard question but the Bible talks about God having control/appointment of leadership of nations so I have to put my faith/trust in their honesty/decisions...including Obama's...who seems to be moving right on this issue.