This is getting stupid.

Pirates hijacking ships near Somalia.

Now they have kidnapped an American ship's Captain.

When the Captain has been rescued, the pirates should be shot and left in the lifeboat they are in.

It's BS. Make examples of them. Eventually the others will get the hint (or be shot also).

That seems pretty drastic to me. Seems to me they have treated the Captain well. Shooting them would not prove popular with the World. That's right you don't care what the world thinks of us. Oh well, you are a typical neo-CON.

These are well known pirate waters and one wonders when these cargo ships will start hiring private security to protect themselves.

AK-47s are evidently the pirates choice of weapons so you would need a security equipped to handle that. However the cost may be prohibitive.

Killing the pirates would not solve the problem Skybill. Patrolling the waters may not either but certainly a combination of things need to be done to keep food flowing to that part of the world.

Sounds like a coalition of sorts needs to be willing to take this on.

I do not approve of the pirates in the least, but is not all that simple. For starters, many of the original "pirates" were fisherman defending sovereign waters and traditional grounds. Wiki has an interesting take on it, and I will share a bit too.

Nations from Europe have been dumping toxic waste off the Somali shoreline since the late 80s. Western nations -- including the U.S. -- knew full well that this was going on and turned a blind eye. The Bush and Clinton administrations made it abundantly clear that Africans were not a priority. American University was one of the first to study the matter and their conclusions in 1997 were devastating.

Only after the 2004 tsunami did we hear much about "pirates" and it was all a one sided story. Why did it "suddenly" become a problem when nobody cared before? Perhaps it was because they were hoping to forget about the past:

"The huge waves which battered northern Somalia after the tsunami in December are believed to have stirred up tons of nuclear and toxic waste illegally dumped in the war-racked country during the early 1990s.

Apart from killing about 300 people and destroying thousands of homes, the waves broke up rusting barrels and other containers and hazardous waste dumped along the long, remote shoreline, a spokesman for the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) said.

"Initial reports indicate that the tsunami waves broke open containers full of toxic waste and scattered the contents. We are talking about everything from medical waste to chemical waste products," Nick Nuttal, the UNEP spokesman, told The Times.

"We know this material is on the land and is now being blown around and possibly carried to villages. What we do not know is the full extent of the problem."

An initial UN report says that many people in the areas around the northeastern towns of Hobbio and Benadir, on the Indian Ocean coast, are suffering from far higher than normal cases of respiratory infections, mouth ulcers and bleeding, abdominal hemorrhages and unusual skin infections.

"The current situation along the Somali coastline poses a very serious environmental hazard not only in Somalia but also in the eastern Africa sub-region," the report says. Toxic waste was first dumped in Somalia in the late 1980s, but accelerated sharply during the civil war which followed the 1991 overthrow of the late dictator Mohamed Siad Barre.

Somali sources close to the trade say that the dumped materials included radioactive uranium, lead, cadmium, mercury and industrial, hospital, chemical and various other toxic wastes. In 1992, UNEP said that European firms were involved in the trade, but because of the high level of insecurity in the country there were never any accurate assessments of the extent of the problem.

In 1997 and 1998, the Italian newspaper Famiglia Cristiana, which jointly investigated the allegations with the Italian branch of Greenpeace, published a series of articles detailing the extent of illegal dumping by a Swiss firm, Achair Partners, and an Italian waste broker, Progresso.

The European Green Party followed up the revelations by presenting to the press and the European Parliament in Strasbourg copies of contracts signed by the two companies and representatives of the then "President" — Ali Mahdi Mohamed — to accept 10 million tons of toxic waste in exchange for $80 million (then about £60 million).

Abdullahi Elmi Mohamed, a Somali academic studying in Sweden, told The Times that this worked out at "approximately $8 per ton, while in Europe the cost for disposal and treatment of toxic waste material could go up to $1,000 per ton."

Mr Ali Mahdi, who then controlled north Mogadishu and who worked closely with the UN during its disastrous 1992-95 humanitarian mission to the country, has always refused to discuss the issue even though an Italian parliamentary report subsequently confirmed many of the allegations."

Times of London (March 4, 2005)

Since the initial abuses by Italy and the Swiss, nations from Asia and the Middle East have also dumped tons of toxic garbage off the shore including more radioactive waste:

"A tense standoff has developed in waters off Somalia over an Iranian merchant ship laden with a mysterious cargo that was hijacked by pirates.

Somali pirates suffered skin burns, lost hair and fell gravely ill "within days" of boarding the MV Iran Deyanat. Some of them died.

Andrew Mwangura, the director of the East African Seafarers' Assistance Programme, told the Sunday Times: "We don't know exactly how many, but the information that I am getting is that some of them had died. There is something very wrong about that ship."

About 22,000 ships a year pass through the Suez Canal and the Gulf of Aden, where regional instability and "no-questions-asked" ransom payments have led to a dramatic rise in attacks on vessels by heavily armed Somali raiders in speedboats.

The Iran Deyanat was sailing in those waters on August 21, past the Horn of Africa and about 80 nautical miles southeast of Yemen, when it was boarded by about 40 pirates armed with AK-47s and rocket-propelled grenades. They were alleged members of a crime syndicate said to be based at Eyl, a small fishing village in northern Somalia.

The ship is owned and operated by the Islamic Republic of Iran Shipping Lines, or IRISL, a state-owned company run by the Iranian military.

According to the US Treasury Department, the IRISL regularly falsifies shipping documents to hide the identity of end users, uses generic terms to describe shipments and operates under various covers to circumvent United Nations sanctions.

The ship set sail from Nanjing, China, at the end of July. According to its manifest, it was heading for Rotterdam where it would unload 42,500 tons of iron ore and "industrial products" purchased by a German client.

At Eyl, the ship was secured by more pirates — about 50 on board, and another 50 on shore.

But within days those who had boarded the ship developed mysterious health trouble.

This was also confirmed by Hassan Allore Osman, minister of minerals and oil in Puntland, an autonomous region of Somalia.

He headed a delegation sent to Eyl when news of the toxic cargo and illnesses surfaced.

He told one news publication, The Long War Journal, that during the six days he had negotiated with the pirates, a number of them had become sick and died.

"That ship is unusual," he was quoted as saying. "It is not carrying a normal shipment."

The pirates did reveal that they had tried to inspect the ship's cargo containers when some of them fell sick — but the containers were locked.

Osman's delegation spoke to the ship's captain and its engineer by cellphone, demanding to know more about the cargo.

Initially it was claimed the cargo contained "crude oil"; later it was said to be "minerals".

And Mwangura has added: "Our sources say it contains chemicals, dangerous chemicals."

South Africa Times (Sep 28, 2008)

(continued)

(continued)

To make matters worse, many nations feel entitled to fish indiscriminately in Somali waters. Again, I am not siding with the pirates, but an international environmental gang rape is not something that I am prepared to defend either. Why in the world would a tuna vessel from Taiwan be so many thousands of miles from home?

"Kaohsiung, the southern Taiwanese city where the Taiwanese fishing vessel seized by Somali pirates originated, is the world's second largest tuna producer.

Fishing vessels based in the city can catch nearly 200,000 tons of tuna fish each year, with the annual production value of the local tuna fishing industry hitting around NT$20 billion (US$599 million), according to officials at the Kaohsiung City Marine Bureau.

"Kaohsiung City's tuna fish catch is the world's largest or second-largest," bureau officials said.

According to the bureau, local deep-sea fishing boats, like the one seized Monday, catch mostly tuna, squid and saury pike.

The "Win Far 161," a 700-ton fishing ship which was hijacked by Somali pirates early Monday in the Indian Ocean, is a long-line tuna fishing boat from Kaohsiung City, bureau officials said, confirming what Taiwan's Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported Monday.

The Kaohsiung City Tuna Association said 360 fishing ships registered with the southern Taiwanese city operate in various oceans in the world, including the Indian Ocean, the Pacific and the Atlantic. Most of them are large long-line ships weighing over 100 tons, and their catch are mainly exported to Japan, Europe and the United States, association officials said. As of yesterday evening, there was still no word about the whereabouts of the vessel and its 30-member crew, which include two Taiwanese citizens. No ransom demand has surfaced.

The boat is one of several ships from various countries seized by Somali pirates in recent days."

Taiwan News (April 9, 2008)

So, hypothetically speaking, how would you react to all this?

What if we had a civil war and these countries were dumping waste and exploiting our fisheries, coastal residents were dying by the score, and families were starving up and down our shoreline? How many of you would disapprove of criminal posses from North Bend, Newport or Tillamook? How many of you would join? How many of you would cheer on our own pirates?

Is this not a classic case of lawlessness on the part of everyone involved? Is this not a bit of old fashioned NIMBY?

Honestly, I wish the issue were simpler, but it really is not.

That seems pretty drastic to me. Seems to me they have treated the Captain well.

I see. So kidnapping is OK as long as you treat the captive well?????????

You are correct. I don't care whether shooting them would be popular or not.

What I do care about is letting the pirates know that if they continue to hijack boats and kidnap people they will be shot.

After a few of them are shot, the others will think twice before acting.

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I don't subscribe to the liberals POV that punishment is not a deterrent.

I agree that punishment is a deterrent.

So, do you just go after starving poisoned people with no government and nothing to lose? Do you continue to shoot them like ducks on a pond until you have killed every last Somalian?

Or, do you prosecute the brazen polluters and resource thieves to the fullest extent of the law and insure that this sort of rampant dumping and unfettered exploitation stops?

We are a world of people and laws. The laws must apply to everyone.

I don't care whether shooting them would be popular or not.

With skybill's tactics, the hijackers will start shooting Americans.

Stupidity like this got George W. Bush nowhere. To prevent the rise of stupidity again, ignore comments like the one skybill made.

The fact of the matter is this: VERY FEW ships are US flagged vehicles. Lets let other countries take the lead here.

Skybill wrote:

It's BS. Make examples of them. Eventually the others will get the hint (or be shot also).

Some questions:

Do you know where to find them? (You don't just sail up to them, there's a lot of ocean out there.

Do you have a plan how to storm the ship without getting the crew hurt or worse?

Do you have a plan for the next time this happens?
In case you haven't noticed, bombing the shit out of them usually doesn't work on the first few tries, and they don't give a damn about making you mad. In Iraq, it didn't seem to matter how many times we dropped bombs, we finally had to pay off the warlords to get them to stop the terror, and I'm sure you think that's a fine reason to drive up the deficit. Also, it's this "I'm an American, jump when I tell you and give me cheap gas." attitude that creates the very contempt we now have to do something about.

Pete's right, typical neo-con. You need to fight for us since you have so much to say.

Littlesongs thanks for the good information. I am humbled by what little I knew of the illegal dumping and the subsequent tsunami that created a real environmental disaster.

Pirating is certainly not the answer but at least from what I read it's understandable.

Skybill had this not been an American captain who is being held hostage I doubt you would have taken any interest in this at all. And if I'm totally honest I probably wouldn't have too. Not real proud to say that.

After a few of them are shot, the others will think twice before acting.

Yeah right. Just before someone murders, they think they might be executed for the crime, so they don't commit the crime. Get real SkyBill. You're just a neo-CONer authoritarian. kill, kill, kill.

To start off, I don't think that there are any "good guys" here. I can't excuse the use of third-world coastlines as convenient waste disposal grounds. I thought that "good liberals" like Western Europeans cared about the environment on a global scale, and I thought that "good liberals" like the Clinton administration wanted to be sure that everybody was doing the right thing on environmental matters. Having said that, I can't excuse the actions of the pirates, either as protest or as acts of desperation. What they are doing is hijacking and theft, regardless of the circumstances.

I think that arming merchant ships might be a better long-range solution than just trying to make an example of a few pirates, and it would be more effective than having patrols. This is one instance where I think the governments of the countries to which these merchant ships are registered should step in and provide the resources to protect the ships (some are doing this already).

Alfredo, I saw something on PBS to the effect that ship owners don't want to arm their crews, nor do they want armed security on board either. They are however, stepping up their evasion techniques.

...to the effect that ship owners don't want to arm their crews, nor do they want armed security on board either.

Skep, did they say why?

The only reason that I can think of would be cost of the armed security.

As for arming the crew, there might be legal issues bringing weapons into other countries.

I wonder if they armed the crew and if the crew was to leave the ship but leave their weapons on board if that would sastisfy any leagal concerns? (if there are any)

Chris, this really is a bad situation all the way around. I wish I knew more too. The truth suffers from a lack of overseas American voices. Few networks or newspapers even bother sending journalists and correspondents abroad anymore. Even in the age of the internet, Africa is all too often ignored in our press. The stories that do come through are spun and chopped into soundbites, buried on page A25, or only appear in the blogosphere. As you keenly observed, it sometimes takes an American victim to expose an ongoing or developing international crisis.

Bill, like I said before, this is not simple at all. The biggest reason that the crews cannot be armed is that often they are not nationals of the country of registry. The article I posted about the Taiwanese tuna vessel shows that of the thirty crew members, only two were from the R.O.C. Obviously, the captain and first mate were Chinese while everyone else was probably suffering under conditions ranging from indentured servitude to outright slavery.

The way of the sea has remained unchanged for a thousand years. Luring refugees from wars and disasters, conning people in desperate poverty, and kidnapping sailors on skid row are all very effective ways to staff a fleet. Men are underpaid, overworked and can easily drown "by accident" if they dare take a stand. If they had weapons, the power balance would shift and mutiny would be as common as piracy. Remember, we are not talking about countries with glowing civil rights records, nor by and large are we talking about legitimate maritime activities.

Even worse yet, experts are not hired to mind a cargo of radioactive waste, handle drums of pus and liposuction fat, or ship and dispose of tons of volatile chemical byproducts. The first article pointed out that the Italian and Swiss firms dumped ten million tons of toxic waste at a measly 8 bucks a ton. It would be impossible for a certified, safe and legal operation to dispose of a ton of waste for the same price as a beer at a baseball game.

I am all for ensuring the safe passage of legitmate cargo through the area. I believe that an international coalition could be formed and eventually restore order. At the same time, all vessels that are breaking the law should be subject to prosecution. Whether it is a little motorized skiff full of pirates, a freighter dropping tons of nuclear waste, or a factory ship stealing millions of fish from Somali waters, they should be seized, investigated and have their day in court. If found guilty, they should forfeit their vessel and face prison.

When Somalis are no longer chased from their traditional fishing grounds and they have a healthy harvest that makes a fair price on the market, the piracy will slow down. When Somalia stabilizes politically and people no longer become ill and die from illegal dumping, the piracy will seem unnecessary in the eyes of regional public opinion. At that point, it will be much easier to enforce the law because there will be far fewer people willing to take the risk.

they should be boarded and investigated.

But not by Americans. Lets get another nation to take the leadership role on this. Russia?

OK--I had made the assumption of protecting the legitimate merchant vessels. If those guys don't want governmental help, that is their loss. As far as the waste dumpers and other outlaws are concerned, I say let the pirates go at 'em!

Why is it that liberals always want to jump in and come to the defense of the bad guys?

Why is it that conservatives just want to kill first and ask questions later?

"Why is it that conservatives just want to kill first and ask questions later?"

How The West Was Won!

"How The West Was Won!"

So you are in favor of the slaughter of the native Americans that took place? To you, "true Americans" are always right, right?

This is what I think.
What part of the word "terrorist" don't you understand? These people...all they want in that part ot the world is money...and lots of it (100 million to date) to fund future ventures, like killing more people for their Islamic calling. The "can't we all just get along" philosophy won't work here. You're dead or will pay up/be extorted if you do.

Sadly, the plight of the Somalian people is met with the indifference by most Americans that the plight of the Native Americans was when we exterminated so many of them (the final solution to the Indian question?!)

It seems to be the American way to only give a shit about the people in areas that matter to us. Note that we dump billions into the Middle East, to countries that HATE us, and a lot of it in aid going to the citizens ... yet we have a place like Somalia, which has nothing we want or need, but the Darfur catastrophe, and issues like what LS posted ... and we look the other way.

Is that OK with you Deane?

What part of the word "terrorist" don't you understand?

What part of the word do you not understand? To my mind, terrorists strike fear in people that are not directly attacked, such as what happen on 9/11.

"So you are in favor of the slaughter of the native Americans that took place? To you, "true Americans" are always right, right?"

Liberal twist is alive and well.


"Sadly, the plight of the Somalian people is met with the indifference"

Letting them board our ships and hold the crew for ransom is hardly the way to improve their plight. Libs always want to make excuses for the bad guys.


"It seems to be the American way to only give a shit about the people in areas that matter to us."

Isn't that human nature.


"yet we have a place like Somalia, which has nothing we want or need, but the Darfur catastrophe"

Since Obama wants to turn everything over to the worthless UN, why don't we let them solve this problem. Oh yes, I guess we did and they did nothing. The UN has no interest in anything except hating the US.

What is happening right now: a host of boats , many not belonging to the pirates, procurred by them, AND their hostages, from Scandanavia, China, Europe, Russia and SE Asia are in the waters as we type, near the lifeboat with the other Pirates and the Good captain as a support force , ready to fight, or so they have said.

What a preposterous situation this is. The other countries wont even lift much of a hand in all this even for their own people, just pay a ransom. Once again the US is taking the lead, putting a foot down and saying enough is enough ! Those dumb low life bastards over there made a big friggin' mistake screwing with an American Shiping line, goddamned stupid uneducated low life bastards anyway. Never ceases to amaze me how low the lowest common denominator can be in human behavior.

But I rant on and on, when most of that part of Africa is full of low life bastards on land and Sea anyhow. Corrupt leaders and government, corruption everywhere. And corruption in the waters as littlesongs stated above.

What else should be expect from people that are saying right now, " We are ready to fight and want the war ships to let our people go, and we will negotiate a ransom later for the Captain" What a crock of meglomaniacal assholes ! Crazy people !

America IS the world's policeman whether we like it or not, whether Obama likes it or not. Get the friggin' hell over it Barack ! And anyone else who is interested . And this is perfect example, where NONE of the other wimp ass nations care much about really DOING anything about all this, except good ole' Uncle Sam.

And you can bet the farm that right now in the halls of Government of those other nations that have hostages held for ransom by the Pirates, there is a silent sigh of relief...America is involved in this now, and there a greater chance for all of this to just friggn' stop or be severely curtailed now. Because we are to whimpy to take care of this correctly.

Let America do it, and let America take the heat over it. And we will !

"Let America do it, and let America take the heat over it. And we will !"

Truer words have not been spoken.


Now, John Kerry is planning on holding "pirate hearings". Even Congress does not trust Obama to be able to handle this situation involving a few thugs in a rowboat.

Rush, stifle it.

This is a simple problem to solve: These ships should have armed guards that are capable of defending the ship from pirates. Frankly, I'm surprised at how easy it is for a pirate to pull up in 12 foot peice of shit boat with an outboard engine and board a tanker! WTF?? As soon as pirates attempt to board a ship, they should be shot dead. End of story.

The problem with the tankers, which is what they usually go after, is that gunshots can blow them up.

What they need to do with this bunch right now is surround them with the US Navy, then inform them that if the Captain dies, we're grabbing them and we'll cut off each of their penises, then turn them loose. If they get back home without bleeding to death, they're free to try again.

For once, and I think only ONE TIME have I just agreed with VITOLOGY about anything completly in a single posting . It is a sage moment for me ! Thanks for the warm and fuzzy feelings Vit' .

The excuses the shippers use for not having arms on these ships is that their crew isnt trained to handle fire arms, they cant afford to man the ships with security personell who are trained, many of the tankers are just that oil tankers and highly combustable etc. They dont want to store all the ammunition, including ammo for say a 50 caliber deck gun , which would certainly cool the crap out of any rag tag assclown junk boat Somalian Pirate baseship .

What it really comes down to is money ! The shippers dont want to arm their ships because one way or the other it will cost them to much to do so. Those ships have 30 foot scuttle ladders that come up the sides in more than one place. So they are easy to board.

The crews have been trained for years to NOT resist pirates. I saw an audio interview at lunchtime today on the cable news with a guy who is an expert on these Somalian and S.E Asian pirates , wrote a book and so forth. He was appalled that this particular crew even resisted the illegal boarding. He said " We cant have this kind of thing going on where any crew resists Pirates, if we do someone will get hurt !!! Unbelievable ! He thinks all this needs to be handled through negotiations and paying ransoms. Unbelievable !

Sounds like this guy just wants this activity to continue so he can write another book !

The way that shipping companies are dealing with this is not helping in the long run: they pay the ransoms. Although the shipping company wins in the short run by getting back their ship, crew, and goods, this practice makes piracy profitable.

As soon as pirates attempt to board a ship, they should be shot dead. End of story.

Perfectly put!

>>>>>IN A WORLD>>>> where "Mad Max" meets "Water World">>>>>

Where's Don LaFontaine when you need him????

Hover a dozen Apache Helicopters around the ship and if they pop their heads up blow them off, then send in some Navy Seals under cover of darkness and take the ship back.

Pay attention, DT, the ship is back. It's only the ship's Captain that is being held hostage.

Man, Littlesongs explained CLEARLY why crews are not being armed and everybody CLEARLY ignored it.

Other reasons for not arming crews were discussed, including the difficulty of even the US Navy's involvement, in the media today, but I'm quite sure it won't matter here because everybody here has GUN FEVER.

Where is Casey Ryback when you need him???????

This is not a simple situation. I will keep saying it. Some of you will choose to keep ignoring it. Where was the outcry back in the 80s and 90s when this shitstorm started?

Investigative journalist Jeremy Scahill wrote a good piece about this conflict. I will share a few of the things he found:

The total ransoms paid in the last year add up to about $150 million dollars.

The total amount of illegal fishing in Somali waters in the last year was around $300 million dollars.

Take a look at those figures and tell me how the Somali people are "profiting" by any stretch from all of this lawless activity? Once again, to be perfectly clear, I am not approving of the piracy, but this is obviously a fight between thieves.

On balance, only a few attacks have involved legitimate mariners with lawful cargoes. Ransom payments are simply hush money, not some sort of benevolent gesture on behalf of the crews.

Governments around the world would be stepping up to help if they were not afraid of exposing their own roles in decades of illegal activities in the region. The web of shady arms deals, careless toxic waste disposal and the theft of natural resources involves people from every corner of the globe.

To paraphrase Alfredo: Everyone is wrong.

For you folks whose violent pornographic fantasies of vigilantism bubbled up in this thread, I believe that your wish has already been granted. A corporate warship has been in these waters since October and has an eager crew. If you are an onanistic sociopath, you need not fret your little head about it.

call in the Lone Ranger!!

A corporate warship has been in these waters since October and has an eager crew.

Lets sign the fellows with gun fever up and see how they perform when the come face to face with a pirate with a bazooka!

I can't believe anyone would be against arming security personnel to guard the ships from pirates wanting to board.

I think my views on guns is pretty well known. However, if there's one place I'd want to be packing heat, it would be on a boat in international waters. Otherwise you're just a sitting duck.

Think about it. This is a easy problem to solve. The first question is how do they board the ship? Make it so it's impossible to board the ship from the water. That way the only way to board is to scale the side of the ship. As soon as someone starts scaling the side, that's when they should be shot.

The reason this is occuring is because it's successful! They are not being killed and are getting what they came for, ransom money.

Teddy Roosevelt would not have let this go on this long. He would have it settled quickly. And he did in his day.

The current administration has no cahonies and can't make a statement until the teleprompter figures out what it wants the leader to say. SOS Clinton wants the international community to solve it. Fat chance of that happening.
Rooster Cogburn would have taken care of it quickly, also. And he only had one eye.

It is not a question of illegal dumping. These are terrorists plain and simple. Bet dollars to doughnuts the pirates know nothing about the past nor do they care. They just want money. Extortion is their game.

Until they are met with adequate resistance and people with cahonies, this will continue. There is only one way to deal with terrorists.

"I can't believe anyone would be against arming security personnel to guard the ships from pirates wanting to board."

I guess I was not clear the first go round, so I will try to put this in very simple terms that everyone can understand.

Many commercial vessels have crews of Filipinos, Bangladeshis, Afghans, Indians, Malaysians, and other desperate people from every dirt poor place on our planet. With few exceptions, these folks are working for mere pennies per hour if they are paid at all. Centuries of abuses on board ship are well documented and continue to this day. Arming any of these people is the last thing that a corporate slaveholder wants to do.

Furthermore, companies that are dumping toxic waste, or operating an illegal factory ship, or carrying weapons to a guerrilla conflict are not going to want a whole other set of eyes on their activities. Nor are they going to want to invest a few more pennies for armed guards that could easily organize a mutiny. They want to get the job done, dispose of the crew and count the cash.

The ships that operate in the waters off the coast of Somalia do include a number of legitimate vessels that seek passage to other parts of Africa, Europe and the Middle East. I agree that they should be kept safe, but only a few of these ships have actually been attacked by pirates. All of the other vessels are breaking the law and are harassed, boarded and extorted on a regular basis.

I know that everyone here wants to be a hero, but this is not a simple case of Bluto beating up on Popeye. This is a bunch of big money gangs from all over the world having a very public turf war.

"Teddy Roosevelt would not have let this go on this long. He would have it settled quickly. And he did in his day."

Teddy Roosevelt would have enjoyed the support of a yellow press that was devoid of facts. He also would have used this single incident to expand our empire to include Somalia.

"Clinton wants the international community to solve it... Rooster Cogburn would have taken care of it quickly."

While Harv waits for a character he saw in a cowboy movie to save the day, let's see if the world steps up and solves it. Okay world, are you set? Okay rotted corpse of John Wayne, are you ready? Annnnnnnnnnnd... Go!

Hmmmm. John? Uh... John? Um... Harv, your guy isn't rushing off to help yet.

"It is not a question of illegal dumping... Bet dollars to doughnuts the pirates know nothing about the past nor do they care."

When 300 people suddenly died in 2005, it had been almost 20 years since the dumping began. The fishermen knew exactly why their neighbors were dead. It has been four short years since the tsunami and the pollution continues to spread.

It is a good thing that I like doughnuts and I am willing to renegotiate the bet. I would like a couple dozen old fashioned to share with my friends. Grab a few good ones for yourself too. Thanks Harv, you are a peach.

"There is only one way to deal with terrorists."

I agree. Stop giving them a reason to be terrorists.

>> As soon as pirates attempt to board a ship, they should be shot dead. End of story.
Vit..you are brilliant!
>>Stop giving them a reason to be terrorists
Asinine
>>They just want money. Extortion is their game.
there...end of story...sadly

Terrorists usually dont take people hostage, they typically just blow them up. These people are just thieves and kidnappers.

---

quote:

Piracy is an international crime consisting of illegal acts of violence, detention, or depredation committed for private ends by the crew or passengers of a private ship or aircraft in or over international waters against another ship or aircraft or persons and property on board. (Depredation is the act of plundering, robbing, or pillaging.)

In international law piracy is a crime that can be committed only on or over international waters (including the high seas, exclusive economic zone, and the contiguous zone), in international airspace, and in other places beyond the territorial jurisdiction of any nation. The same acts committed in the internal waters, territorial sea, archipelagic waters, or national airspace of a nation do not constitute piracy in international law but are, instead, crimes within the jurisdiction and sovereignty of the littoral nation.

Sea robbery is a term used to describe attacks upon commercial vessels in ports and territorial waters. Such attacks are, according to international law, not true acts of piracy but rather armed robberies. They are criminal assaults on vessels and vessel crews, just as may occur to truck drivers within a port area. Such attacks pose a serious threat to trade. The methods of these attacks have varied from direct force using heavy weapons to subterfuge in which the criminals have identified themselves on VHF radio as the national coast guard.

These maritime criminals are inclined to operate in waters where government presence is weak, often lacking in both technical resources and the political will to deal effectively with such attacks. International law permits any warship or government vessel to repress an attack in international waters. In a state's territorial waters, such attacks constitute an act of armed robbery and must be dealt with under the laws of the relevant coastal state. These laws seldom, if ever, permit a vessel or warship from another country to intervene. The most effective countermeasure strategy is to prevent criminals initial access to ports and vessels, and to demonstrate a consistent ability to respond rapidly and effectively to notification of such a security breach.

Acts of piracy can only be committed by private ships or private aircraft. A warship or other public vessel or a military or other state aircraft cannot be treated as a pirate unless it is taken over and operated by pirates or unless the crew mutinies and employs it for piratical purposes. By committing an act of piracy, the pirate ship or aircraft, and the pirates themselves, lose the protection of the nation whose flag they are otherwise entitled to fly.

To constitute the crime of piracy, the illegal acts must be committed for private ends. Consequently, an attack upon a merchant ship at sea for the purpose of achieving some criminal end, e.g., robbery, is an act of piracy as that term is currently defined in international law. Conversely, acts otherwise constituting piracy done for purely political motives, as in the case of insurgents not recognized as belligerents, are not piratical.

International law has long recognized a general duty of all nations to cooperate in the repression of piracy. This traditional obligation is included in the 1958 Geneva Convention on the High Seas and the 1982 LOS Convention, both of which provide: "[A]ll States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State."

It is widely accepted among the government and non-government organizations that track piracy worldwide (including the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), U.K. Defense Intelligence Service (DIS), Australian Defence Intelligence Organization (DIO) and the International Maritime Bureau (IMB)), that the annual number of piracy cases is seriously undercounted. DIS estimates the actual number of piracy cases could be 2,000 percent higher on an annual basis while DIO estimates the underreporting to be 20 to 70 percent.44 Since the establishment of the IMB's Regional Piracy Center in Malaysia in 1992 and its subsequent efforts to publicize the piracy problem, there has been increased reporting on major incidents, but incidents involving fishermen and recreational boaters are still heavily undercounted. Also, the average loss from a piracy incident does not cross the monetary threshold for insurance action, further contributing to underreporting. Most incidents will continue to go unreported except in cases where there is serious loss of property and life or damage to a foreign interest.

The concentration of piracy incidents continues to be located in areas with little or no maritime law enforcement, political and economic stability, and a high volume of commercial activity. Incidents of piracy tend to occur in four regional areas: Southeast Asia, Africa, South America, and Central America. Furthermore, most incidents of maritime crime occur in coastal waters with nearly 80 percent of all reported piracy incidents occurring in territorial waters.

---

Humble sez: Until they are met with adequate resistance and people with cahonies, this will continue. There is only one way to deal with terrorists.

Look in the mirror and say this and you'll see George W Bush bullshitting right at you.

Thank goodness Broadway, Deane, Harv, and Skybill and I have to say Vit, have no political or military connections because it would be a blood bath with no resolve to the actual problem.

Killing the pirates only kills the pirates and not the problem. I'm am amazed at the ignorance of some people.

Thank goodness Broadway, Deane, Harv, and Skybill and I have to say Vit, have no political or military connections because it would be a blood bath with no resolve to the actual problem.

On the other hand, seeing their heads on a pike at the hands of the pirates would put the John Waynes back in their places for another decade. Oh, wait, this already happened.

Good call DT.

I was wondering about that too. Not everybody, who is a criminal, is a terrorist. Might as well be real about that part of it.

"stop giving them reasons" is a part of this problem, like it or not. LS detailed how and why too.

I love watching neutered authoritarians pissed that cowboy justice is just old news!

Look. No one is saying just kill the pirates, but as soon as they attempt to board the ship and take it over, what's wrong with defending your ship against attack?

Would you sit down and counsel the armed robber that breaks into your house to find out why they are robbing you?

What a bunch of pussies. Just like the bully on the playground, they will continue to pick on the weak until someone pops them in the mouth.

This will continue until they are no longer successful.

Littlesongs, maybe a third time is necessary for John Wayne.

I heard him the first time. I don't see any realistic solution offered by Littlesongs.

The bottom line is that the pirate business will end when it's no longer easily successful. Resisting their attempts to pirate the ship is the most realistic solution. Changing the world so Somalians are happier and therefore won't need to pirate ships is not realistic.

Pirating ships is a crime of opportunity, and the ships need to reduce the amount of opportunity they offer.

Vita- I agree what the pirates are doing is criminal and deserves punishment. I earlier suggested security as a deterrent, but as Littlesongs has posted there is a much deeper issue that is resulting in piracy.

There is certainly no easy answers and the best end result of the current situation is a freed captain and captured pirates. But what then?

Vitalogy, I'll try to give you credit for being more than a desk Admiral, but the solution you and others have offered is frankly stupid. Your lack of understanding of the maritime industry or of the larger problem is glaringly obvious. A water-cannon is about the only thing that a ship can use in this situation. For the sake of argument, we'll explore your solution.

Let's assume for a moment that you are working as an American captain on a Maersk ship owned by a Danish firm, under an American flag, and staffed with an American crew. This circumstance is fairly rare in the big picture, but since it applies to the current situation, we will let it stand.

Your vessel spends many months at a stretch at sea and is in operation year-round. For a week or three of your voyage, you are in very dangerous waters. Not only are there pirates in the area, but you are also surrounded by government sanctioned, corporate sponsored and mafia financed lawlessness.

Activities ranging from shadow freighters full of tanks and bombs, to supertankers quietly draining raw sewage and chemical effluents, to illegal factory ships harvesting millions of fish are going on 24/7. The other captains are far from top notch and their crews range from brazen criminals, to inexperienced wharf hires, to kidnapped children.

Things are happening all around you. You have to constantly be on the lookout for more than just pirates. On top of that, there is the distinct possibility of violent weather around the horn of Africa. This compounds the navigation risks due to the high number of vessels in the area.

Not only is the traffic heavy as shipping lanes go, but the overt and covert criminal activity is so rampant that makes it difficult to tell who is legitimate and who is not. The sheer number of commercial vessels manned with untrained officers and third world skeleton crews raises the risk of collision to a dangerous level.

With all of these very real hazards facing you, do you dedicate additional time to even more preparation? What sort of cargo are you carrying? Is it hazardous? Is it explosive? Is it flammable? Is it fragile? These factors can severely limit where and when you can actually fire off a round or two.

Setting aside the high cost of hired guns, you cannot even consider bringing in special security for this leg of the voyage because they would have no place to go. The ship has a finite number of beds and they are all occupied by essential personnel. There are no "spare quarters" to house a dozen all-American rent-a-cops for two or three weeks.

Even with your American crew, all of the weapons must be stored under lock and key lest they be used in a quarrel. Sometimes even good men -- who are well compensated, treated with respect, and fed three square meals -- can go bad. Which members of your crew can you trust to be left alone with an arsenal during prep time?

Once you have determined who has the skills and who can be trusted, the job still has to get done. How many man-hours from those elite members of your small crew can you dedicate to cleaning and preparing the guns? Remember, you are at sea. Wet ammunition is volatile or simply worthless. Anything and everything rusts very quickly in the salt air.

Assuming that you can rely on the latest navigational aids to help you safely steer the ship through these waters, how many crew members can you assign to the task of securing the vessel? If a week or three of around the clock patrols has to be added to an already busy schedule, you are probably going to create a situation on board.

So, there you are in the Indian Ocean with a bunch of well-armed, tired and punch drunk sailors who are getting more and more aggro by the moment. They have been at sea for a long time now. The exhaustion of the voyage is building up. Not everyone has earned your trust and the unarmed crewmen have growing resentments because they are pulling extra duty.

Oh, by the way, your ship is the size of a football stadium with just as many entrances. The ladders are for the safety of the crew in an evacuation. Without being able to abandon ship by climbing down into a lifeboat, they might as well be jumping off a three story building into a churning parking lot. Cutting them even shorter, greasing the rails or otherwise making them difficult to use is not an option.

You have the very best of the best and conditions are still far from ideal. The shift from an atmosphere of hard work and camaraderie to a siege mentality is sudden and stark. The tension hangs heavy in the air. You have not seen a pirate yet, but the potential for something bad happening on your vessel increases as the crew grows restless.

Suddenly, the pirates appear out of the darkness. Your crew scrambles to cover the ladders. They are not crack shots and valuable ammunition is wasted in the waves. Fortunately, the seas are not rough, no crew members are hurt or drowned in the first firefight, and the cargo is not filled with bullet holes. As luck would have it, the scene unfolds quickly in your favor and you kill every last one of the pirates.

Dawn breaks and you survey the scene. There are two dozen bodies floating around the vessel. Off in the distance, another wave of pirates is heading your way. Meanwhile, the Navy has been alerted and the press is following the story. Exhausted from a long night, the crew mans the guns and has another go. A couple dozen more pirates lose their lives, but this time two of your crew are shot. One dies instantly while the other will suffer in sick bay for the next two days before dying of infection.

Wave after wave of pirates come. So far your crew has been very lucky. Only a few containers have been destroyed by rocket propelled grenades and they did not start a blaze. Nobody has slept much, the heat on deck during the day is unbearable, and regular patrols are still on duty around the clock. Ammunition is quickly becoming a finite resource. It feels like the Alamo.

To make matters worse, the Navy is screaming at you for upping the ante. It is quickly becoming a free for all. Other vessels in the region have begun to institute their own ideas of security measures. There is a good chance that one or more of the other ships will have a violent mutiny. Weeks ago it was unimaginable, but now you could be attacked by another freighter with far less to lose and far more to gain by killing your crew and stealing your cargo. A situation that was once threatening has become gravely dire.

Now, the media has arrived on the scene. After three days, almost a hundred bloated corpses bob along in your wake with the wreckage of their boats. The carnage is shocking to the world. Of course, two dead American sailors with families crying on every newscast was the last thing you wanted. Regardless of spin and well crafted positions, the scenes playing out back home are not making your company very popular at all.

Nobody on board has slept in days and well-armed people are starting to hallucinate. The mood is very grim. Assuming you make it out alive, it will be weeks before this is all sorted out. If there is a prolonged investigation, it could be six additional months before your clients get their cargo. Two American crew members have perished and their families will be suing the company for millions. What now Captain Queeg?

Few other ships in the area have the advantage of an experienced crew, or the latest navigational tools, or a well maintained craft, or the backing of the U.S. Navy. Few other ships in the region are engaging in absolutely legitimate activities. You are the exception, not the rule. So, how is it that arming merchant vessels is going to be the magic bullet to solve this problem? How does it make more sense than applying the law equally and enforcing the rules? How is it smarter than holding everyone accountable for their actions?

US Naval Institute blog on defending unarmed merchant ships. Some pros, some cons, many caveats:

http://blog.usni.org/?p=906

Christian Science Monitor, "To stop pirates, do ships need firepower?"

http://features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/04/08/to-stop-pirates-do-ships-nee d-firepower/

Well, you write a good novel but again, you're short on solutions. Unless these ships take measures to defend themselves, the pirating will continue because these ships are low hanging fruit. Trim the branches up a bit and they can't reach it. If they try to reach, then do what it takes to fend them off. If that includes firing a round towards these pirates, sobeit.

I am not short on solutions, but some folks are short on reading comprehension. Just so the childlike minds are not left wondering, I will try to put it in a nutshell -- yet again.

The solution is to keep Somalia from being a toilet for the world. The solution is to ensure that the Somali people are the only ones that can harvest fish in their territorial waters. The solution is to have a stable government in the region. The solution is to enforce international laws across the board.

Human beings only lash out in large numbers when they are fucked with in large numbers. Considering how many people have died from two decades of civil war, the tsunami, radiation, poisoning, starvation and the theft of natural resources, the fact that these folks will still negotiate at all is a miracle.

The pirates are not the only criminals who must be punished. Should Europe have a free pass on radioactive waste? Should China have a free pass on weapons trafficking? Should Saudi Arabia have a free pass on dumping raw sewage? Should Taiwan have a free pass on illegal fishing? No, No, No & No.

If the law applies to everyone equally, this situation will work itself out in time. When there is justice and stability in the region, both the cause and the effect are muted. If a free market based on traditional skills employs folks, rewards hard work and they are not starving, Somalis will obey the rules.

This is not a collection of abstract concepts that make good fiction. This is simply a call for justice. It might be hard to believe, but we are talking about people and laws.

Force field or water cannons, mm? too far out.

Hey they might want to make these tankers more difficult to board by making changes in the scuttle ladders that go up the sides. Make them easily retractable or some such. I wonder if we could invent some kind of kevlar curtain that could be dropped to protect the hull from explosives and shells?

More difficult to get on , more difficult to blow up. However, they would need to outrun the smaller boats in the end . And that isnt going to happen any time soon. But , it might give them some time to call in the Cavalry.

Water cannons are regularly used on board vessels with valuable or flammable cargoes for self-defense and fire protection. They are also used to clean fish processors. It is not very "far out" at all.

In our hellbent rush to embrace globalism, we have forgotten that corrupt governments, corporate bandits and the mafia are all along for the ride. The most dangerous enemies of freedom are not always terrorists. Some of them are filling your tank, stuffing your tummy and literally making a killing.

Instead of asking Flash Gordon, Mr. Wizard, Dr. Science, MacGyver, Thomas Edison, John Wayne and Blackwater to solve the problem at sea, we could concentrate on making Somalia a lawful place. We could also secure the Indian Ocean for everyone who is obeying the rules.

I know, helping an African nation is so 80s. Ironically, if all the current suburban pseudo-swabbies gave half a damn back then and had spoken up loudly, Somalia would not be in this mess today.

Yeah.

Would be nice to see investigation of those nice coastal homes.

BTW: IF we are going the escalation of powers route, let's use medieval technology. Spikes on the ships, catapults filled with oil and fire, and nets --lots of nets, with lead weights on them, just because! Frak it, put spikes on those too! Bottle bombs, with nails. Oh, archers! Gotta have lots 'n lots of archers, with inverse hooked arrow points, poison and more oil and fire. That's just in case the catapult gift doesn't start giving on time. Bonus points.

Everybody carries some nice sharp, poison tipped steel too.

You know, all that just brutal stuff! Might as well make everybody regret the problem exists.

Pollute the bay, crew members on all sides lose important body parts, cargo is smelly and often charred... If it's messy enough, people will move on right?

If anybody is confused, just spill a lot of the oil, ignite, kick back and watch it all get sorted out.

Sell tickets on the shoreline, and rights in Hollywood.

We can show these limp-dick, pussy, pirate wanna-be clowns just what being a full on pirate means!



Edit: Every ship carrying something worth the trouble comes with a dead man switch. Whack the wrong person and KABLAM! End of problem, next.

Which members of your crew can you trust to be left alone with an arsenal during prep time?

Heck, some mild mannered people are pushed to a point where they're ready to toss the captain of their Dragon Boat overboard.

Social Engineering takes a very long time and many roadblocks generally get in the way of that anyhow .

We need something to help foil these piracy incidents to begin with, make them too risky for the pirates , no more easy pickens so to speak . Make life tough on these jerks . Solutions of a an electro-mechanical nature. Modification of technology. Not neccesarily perhaps to kill a lot of people in the process or perhaps not neccesarily to take the usual general attitude of " lets blow their shit away and be done with it".

A more humane approach that actually works , like , " Grab em by the gonads, twist once , and their hearts and minds will follow " . Like, we could build a great big sonic boom blast system and let it go when the pirates haul-up alongside the ship. Have the crew put on ear protection ahead of time, then let it rip. Make it go on and on until they stand off stemming the blood comming out of their broken eardrums.

New inovations like that , that could be affordable and a bit more humane . And when the pirates sail out with hearing protection , we can resort to our electronic flashing strobe system that can flashburn your eyes at 700 yards, installed so that the crew wont be in the line of sight. So now the pirates will have to bring hearing protection and welders goggles with them to hijack the ship. And then we could also incorporate Littlesongs water cannon along with the rest of it to make life even more interesting for the pirates .

They , then , will have to raise their level of preparedness and also increase their risk of being harmed or captured .

"Social Engineering takes a very long time and many roadblocks generally get in the way of that anyhow."

It would be easier to retrofit tens of thousands of vessels from all over the world with your newfangled Rube Goldberg technology?

We all want to see an end to this very complex problem. How about this approach to start the process?

Are you a Somali? No. You do not belong in Somali waters.

Are you a Somali? Yes. You need to stay in Somali waters.

The very act of enforcing sovereign boundaries would nip a whole lot of this bullshit in the bud. A traditional fishing nation with busy fishermen has little time for piracy.

It is not a huge social engineering project, nor is it a convoluted torture tool from a sadist with an overactive imagination.

It is just a simple recognition of what truly belongs to the people who call that part of the world home. It would mark a solid step in the right direction.

We would expect no less along our own shores.

Who is going to enforce it, brainiac ?

The United Nations..that is a friggin pipe dream.

They cant even agree to disagree.

And who is going to 'decide' that Somalia is just a ' little fishing nation" ..And who is going to ID who is Somali and who the friggin' hell isnt?? Duh ! Where, how, when ? Christ , get real.

AND you are also dealing in INTERNATIONAL waters here ! Enforcement is real problematic because of worldwide treaty .

Talk about an overactive imagination !

You would need someone like Hitler, Joseph Stalin or Saddam Hussein to make all your ideas happen here.

Good luck on that ! Rube Goldberg would work a lot better. And get results faster. Your original idea about the water cannon is just as sadistic as anything I mentioned above.

Stick your Sadism where the moon dont shine in light of the Saddistic Pirates holding 40 some hostages ON the high seas in their rag tag "baseships" last I heard .

Once again for the folks in the back: I do not approve of the piracy in the least.

You should relax knowing that cooler heads will prevail in this conflict. Far smarter people than any of us are now tackling the problem. I came to share information. My job is done for the moment.

Have a doughnut. Harv picked out some good ones.

Make the external part of the hulls REALLY slippery.

You're welcome.

No thay have ladders. And the ladders are there for a reason. Safety and logistic issues. They need to make them retractable. Most if not all of them are permanently afixed to the hull in more than one location .

I would think that the shippers could construct an enclosed cage at the head end of the ladders to at least slow down the progress of the Pirates boarding the ship, again not real expensive to have your welders re-fit that kind of thing on each ship. A inexpensive way to buy some time.

Captain Freed !

3 Pirates killed 1 captured in some kind of operation on the high seas.

10:35 AM Easter Sunday.

seems like Obomba is following the Carter plan of "do nothing and hope the problem will go away!".time now to call a special hi level internationaltask force meeting to develop a new Pirate stratyerigery(GHW Bush, GW Bush, gen Powell, C.Rice,C.Rove,Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney,& Dan Quayle,Sean Hannitty, and Rush Limbaugh!!.plus Mark Levin and Bill O'rielly,ans Lars L.)??

A Message From President Obama on the Rescue of Cargo Ship Captain!

This ended the way it should have. 3 pirates dead, one full of bullets. These thugs need to learn that fooling with the U.S. does not have a good outcome.

Yep.

I'm fine with this. Not that I was asked, but I am.

And CNN is using the word " escaped " regarding how the Captain got away. Interesting.

I'm sure Blackhawk is bidding to be security in the future.

Something I learned just now. Security forces do ride on some of these ships. But due to international law, they cant go into port or even into waters within the 12 miles limits of any nation.

So these security forces have to be taken off the ship beforehand and then invested back on after returning to international waters. What a great expense and hassle that is !

Good news! Captain rescued and the pirates got what they had coming. The best possible ending.

Thankful this is over. But what do about the next attacks? What's the next step?

Very complex issue that we are learning more and more about.

Good news!

I heard on the Ron Reagan show that they could hang the pirates, according to Maritime Law, if they wanted too. The high seas are still very much like the wild west, it seems.

Well, we got lucky, in that we were able to get three extremely skilled snipers to the scene and the pirates gave them a clear head shot.

Note that the owner of the yacht Tanit was killed in a rescue operation by French forces. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/10/hostage-killed-as-french-storm-pirat e-yacht

What is needed is an internationally sanctioned procedure for trying pirates. See USCG Comdt. Thad Allen's remarks on ABC's "This Week" http://www.abcnews.go.com/ThisWeek/Story?id=7317893&page=3 Kenya has agreed to try pirates from the Horn region, but this is apparently an ad hoc arrangement. http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0414/p03s01-usju.html

Allen referred to the cooperative effort being developed in the Straits of Malacca. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Strait_of_Malacca#Multi-national_coll aboration and http://simgle.org/irai/?p=9 re the "Malacca model," a cooperative effort of Japan, Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore.

However, Somalia's coastline is about as long as the U.S. East Coast, so patrolling its entirety will be problematic.

The 9/03 Atlantic Monthly had an article on the hair-raising 2001 travail of the crew of the Italian tanker Kristal. http://www.wesjones.com/anarchy.htm See part V (Law of the Sea) for the Indian Coast Guard's aggressive pursuit and recapture of another hijacked ship, the Alondra Rainbow; the pirates were tried and convicted in India under Indian law. The Alondra Rainbow case was the impetus for Japan's developing the "Malacca model."

...Bump...

...shoulda put this in the other thread, I guess...