http://www.catholicvote.com/

The fetus might even develop into a human being that could become a priest and molest children in his spare time when not producing sanctimoneous garbage like this.

LOL!!

Apparently, Tdanner can indeed criticize this latest political ad!

LOL touche'

He stepped right up and asked for it too!

"Thank you 'mam, may I please have another?"

>>sanctimoneous garbage

or another definition of life that God loves!

I wonder what Michelle Obama will think about this, she's already pissed about the dolls that are "not" named for her daughters. She didn't approve of Ty Corp. using her daughter's names and making money off them, will she approve of the Catholic church doing it to her husband?

And since when is Broadway a fan of the Catholic Church? I though He prefers carrying the giant posters of aborted fetus' around. He should stick with his own kind of nut-jobs and quit crossing party lines.

Touche' TD!

Notice how Broadway conveniently neglects to mention so many atrocities over the centures the Catholic church has committed, the millions of deaths, "in the name of God."

Like so many in the religious right, the selective memory and short-sightedness here is astounding.

>>fan of the Catholic Church

well there's something about life that is...well...so...agreeable.

Actually I'm disappointed in all you by not staying on topic instead slamming Catholics...is the ad truthful?

Modify the ad a little and change the person at the end to Adolf Hitler or Ted Bundy. See how many people that ad sways to the cause of Pro Life.

Ok then, let's just talk about it on another level.

The AD makes the statement(s):

-every life has potential

-our President was one of those lives.

That's it. Those are, in fact, valid statements. I would assert they are true as well.

We are then left to ponder what those two statements mean.

The implication that a combination of true statements leads to a "true" or "just" conclusion is a fallacy.

On the first, and primary statement, where every life has potential, there are a few scenarios:

1. Life matures and is pure evil. Net loss for us.

2. Life matures and is pure good. Net gain.

3. Life is mediocre. Still a gain, but just not dramatic.

Personally, I lean toward the idea that aborting lives is a net loss because more good people or mediocre people are born than pure evil ones. And that's assuming that nature -vs- nurture has some leaning toward nature playing a greater role.

Either way, if we have more good people than bad, nurture plays out well for us too.

That happens to be one of the primary reasons why I do not condone or advocate for women to have abortions!

On the second matter; namely, one of those lives was our current President, I answer, "So?".

Who is to say our history wouldn't have played out differently, perhaps reaching a state where we reached that level of tolerance and acceptance much earlier? Coupla abortions here and there, leaves us with a world filled with different people and maybe that combination is better, where progress is concerned, than the one that exists is.

Of course, a murder or two, or accident, or perhaps just a chance meeting between people in a coffee shop could have the same impact!

The reality on that is very simple. We don't know, can't know. This is not something we control. If it's not something we can control, then there is absolutely no reason to imply that our actions regarding that are "wrong" or "right", only choices.

What this AD does not talk about is the very real impact on the mothers! I'm sure the woman that was just raped, trying to weigh living her life, always reminded of the crime in the form of a baby to take care of isn't exactly something easy to work out, now is it?

Or, let's take the case of the teen, high on youth, goes to a party a little out of control, meets another teen doing the same. Condom forgotten, perhaps their parents didn't educate them, or whatever the case may be, sex happens and the next morning then presents a problem.

Should those two lives be changed over that mistake?

Think about it. Our next President could be not our next President, just for a weak personal moment. Instead of going on to school, that President to be is stuck at the Subway, working to feed somebody and never realizes their talent.

See how that all plays out Broadway?

In short, this AD changes nothing. If you are the kind of person that believes women have the right to choose their life path, simply because of their nature, then this ad encourages a choice toward life.

For those who believe no choices are viable, then this AD just makes you feel better about that.

There is no big truth, no secret that we all missed, no "Oh! How could I have been so wrong?" moment.

And for the women that have felt compelled to make their choice for an abortion, all this AD does is make them feel like shit. Classic conservative, "teaching people a lesson", "let others make your choices because you don't know any better" bull shit, horse shit and cow shit.

Feel better now Broadway?

It sure worked for me. You?

I can't watch the video while at work, but if it's anything coming from the catholic church, they have an awful lot of nerve considering the lives they have knowingly destroyed. My mom attempted to raise us catholic and I can say from my experience the catholic church is full of hyprocrites just like all the others. Different beliefs, same bullshit. And my mom no longer affiliates herself with the church either because she feels the same way.

When I was in catholic grade school, we were indoctrinated to believe that life did not begin & that the soul did not enter the body until the fetus was "viable"... could survive on its own outside the womb. "Miscarriages" (as opposed to stillbirths) were not considered by the Catholic Church to be human and didn't require burial. Stillborn and babies who died prior to baptism were sent for all eternity to LIMBO... which we were told was "just like heaven except the unbaptized were denied the knowledge of the glory of god." And like first class vs coach, there was no interacting between heaven and limbo. Parents who lost a child prior to baptism would never be reunited with that child in the afterlife. (Is this a great religion or what? Why did I ever leave it?)

In later years of course, God changed his mind...limbo disappeared.... sacred human life began at conception, and those sent to hell for knowingly eating meat on Fridays were screwed.

[As an addendum: Obama was born to a married couple pursuing college educations. Not exactly the core demo for abortions. So the ad is specious at best. There is no reason to imply that Obama's parents considered abortion any more than that GWBush's parents considered abortion after he was conceived.]

...There is no reason to imply that Obama's parents considered abortion...

I didn't get that from watching it.

What I took away from it was that anybody (and I don't mean that in a bad way) could grow up to be President. They just picked a very popular and familiar face to emphasize that point.

TGIJ.

I can criticize the cheesy string music, but the ad itself is no worse than many other ads trying to make a point, even if the reason behind it is, well frankly, misguided.

As Vitalogy mentioned, "considering the lives they (The Catholic Church) have knowingly destroyed. ... "is full of hyprocrites (sic)"
pretty much sums up why the Church should be keeping a low profile.

As far as the never ending debate on when life begins, if you can't hash out this issue without religious guidance, the Jewish scriptures dealt with this well before Christianity. In Genesis, it is written that life begins when you breathe.
Claims that a fertilized egg is a life do not meet that test.

Clearly there is an overabundance of material on the subject, and you aren't going to get anywhere wasting bandwidth restating all the opinions on what is right and what is wrong.

Life is indeed sacred, but the Pro-life agenda does not serve a modern world. You can't limit your thinking to the interpretation of ancient writings, especially those that come from The Catholic Church whose ability to keep their own house in order is heavily flawed.

For the religious nuts:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblh.htm
http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

No sides here, just this question to ponder.

If one can choose to excercise their right to have an abortion, then should they not also be able to excercise there right to use their body to generate income without the risk of criminal prosecution i.e. prostitute?

Roger, yes. At least I think so.

Interesting reading Andy. Thanks for the links.

If prostitution could be morphed into a truly "victimless" act, it shouldn't be criminal. But in the real world, too many young women are exploited (best case) or sold into virtual slvaery (worst case), too many people believe that if one woman treats sex as a commodity, all sex is a commodity -- and a big part of our humanity is lost. (Beavis: heh heh you said big part.)

I'm not a guy, but when I walk around Amsterdam the whole thing just looks sad...pathetically sad. Vacant eyed young women in neon windows trying to strike a Playboy pose while young, drunken louts dare each other to knock on the window and strike a deal. But there's stringent medical supervision, income taxes, business licenses, accountability.

Neither abortion nor prostitution are even remotely desirable... but both have been with us since the dawn of time, and both are part of the fabric of personal freedom.

I don't disagree that prostitution can be degrading and often is, but I'd argue that it's much worse in places where its criminalized. If a prostitute is abused by a pimp, how likely is it she'll go to the cops for help if she's already by definition a criminal? At least if prostitution were legal the women who participate would have the protection of the law. Nevada-style legal brothels aren't a wonderful solution either, but at least the women working there don't have to worry about being beaten or robbed.

Just because you make something legal doesn't mean you approve of it. Cigarette smoking is legal (and should remain so) but is also a devastating habit to the people who smoke. Human beings sometimes do things that aren't good for them. The government shouldn't always try to be Mommy and prevent people from doing anything that might not be good for them - including prostitution.

I have to agree with Andrew on the pimp thing and abuse from clients. This should be legal but regulated.

If the tables were turned and it was MEN who had the opportunity to sell their body, you can bet your bottom dollar it would be legal to do so. Not allowing a woman to charge money for sex is one of the most sexist things going.

>>the fabric of personal freedom

yah...on the mothers part but her baby looses it's.

>>I walk around Amsterdam

so did I in the mid-90's and sadly our country is headed there with these attitudes.

Agreed it should be regulated.

Also agreed on the personal freedom points made.

Broadway, one has to be a person, viable and independent to have "personal" freedom.

A coupla cells isn't a person. And in the context of your AD, consider this:

Couple almost meets, but for somebody deciding to get coffee. A moment in time is missed, and a life never was. This is not unlike a couple meeting, then becoming aware that perhaps they shouldn't have, or were forced, or something similar.

In either case, a moment in time passes, our understanding of it's meaning is that of simple ignorance, and a life never was.

I walked around Amsterdam in the 90's as well. While I didn't partake in women selling their goods, I did enjoy a nice cup of joe along with a fat joint to start the morning.

That is not a bad way to start a morning!

And in a couple months I plan to enjoy a nice cup of joe and some tasty pastry before heading over to the "Van Gogh and the Colours of the Night" show at the Museum.

Some think it's life... some think it's just tissue that could someday develop into life. Nobody's going to change each other's mind... and there is no possible proof... so it must remain a matter of personal conscience.

>>it's just tissue
>>and there is no possible proof

you've got to be kidding...you tissue you! Attention all proto-persons...be glad that your mother was pro-life and that we are all here to watch and debate this issue unlike 4,000 per day whose lives are snuffed/vacuumed out because of their inconvience...very sad...

"4,000 per day whose lives are snuffed"

Again, a fertilized egg is not a life.

Again, a fertilized egg is not a life.

That is your opinion. (either that or post scientific proof that it's not)

To some, it is a life.

Ahhhh!!
That's the WHOLE point!!!!

It IS an opinion.
It is ONLY an opinion.
Based on interpretation of faith.

Why is it you would legislate to impose YOUR opinion on others that don't share it?!?

Read my earlier post. A fertilized egg does not breathe. It's the opinion of the ancient scholars who thought this through well before the Catholics were around. My personal opinion is far more abrasive than the facts I already presented. Whereas you are always entitled to your opinion, the point I presented had to do with the fact that the definition of life was presented far before the time of Jesus let alone the Catholic Church. Fortunately, I distinguish vast differences between the Catholic Church and the Christian faith. They aren't one and the same (that is my opinion.) Had the Catholic Church kept their social agenda out of their religious teachings, they would have a lot more credibility. Remember, the Catholic Church is the group that secretly condoned their clergy sexually abusing minors. That fact alone discredits everything they've ever said. The Christian faith, on the other hand, is very fractured with many paths and beliefs. The bottom line is that if, as I stated before, you need religious guidance on the issue of abortion and the question of when life begins, one neeed not look beyond the writings of Genesis and the earliest scholars. Of course, it is as I said your right to believe what you want, and I respect that. However, in a debate where certain factions of the Christian faith, i.e. the Catholic Church, want to twist the earliest teachings of the Bible to suit their agenda, you will be on the side that has less credible evidence to support their stated rules.

Skybill: "Again, a fertilized egg is not a life."

That is your opinion. (either that or post scientific proof that it's not)

It's very hard to prove a negative ("prove it's not life.") Generally, the burden of proof is on the person making the positive assertion ("prove it's a life").

So if a fertilized egg is life, should the mother be charged with murder if a miscarriage occurs?

>>post scientific proof that it's not

Proof is that you were once one...a fertilized egg...and you can take that to your "life" bank!

>>charged with murder if a miscarriage

not an issue if it happens innocently...a red herring...

"not an issue if it happens innocently"

And how would that be determined? Should each miscarriage be under a criminal investigation to determine innocence?

I'm not commenting on the ad, but the issue of abortion in general. I don't think I've ever seen a difficult issue where both sides didn't have their fair share of nutjobs. What I'm about to say does not refer to those nutjobs but rather the majority of reasonable and intelligent people who just disagree. If you're pro choice and can't figure out how pro life people can be so over the top, consider this. Pro life people really believe that abortion is the wrongful taking of innocent life, otherwise known as murder. Now if you really believed that, how could you not be passionate about the issue? Again, I'm not excusing the pro life nutjobs. I just think that if you realize what the point of view means, it's a little easier understanding some of the behavior. On the other hand, I think a lot of pro life people can't understand how some pro choice people can seem so callous about the unborn. Well it's easy if you believe that life starts at viability, or birth, or some other point sometime after conception.

I can't see how we'll ever get consensus on this issue, but a little more understanding and a little less venom from both sides sure wouldn't hurt.

With apologies to Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.

So if a fertilized egg is life, should the mother be charged with murder if a miscarriage occurs?{

No, because most miscarriages happen naturally.

Now, if the woman intentionally does something to cause it then that's a different story.

I have to agree with Scott. Both sides are equally passionate about their stance on the issue.

What about negligent homicide? I mean, if she does ANYTHING that could have increased the odds of miscarriage - ?

Again, how do we determine intention? Skybill and Broadway seem to favor some proof of intention.

If a woman works hard at her job and is stressed out and has a miscarriage as a result, do you charge her?

My wife had two miscarriages before we had our beautiful baby boy. Should the doctors that dealt with her at the hopsital be required to provide health records to the police so they can review each miscarriage?

Bottom line, nobody has to have an abortion. So the people that are against it are free not to have one.

The reason why the pro-life crowd is so upset has nothing to do with killing the unborn, it has everything to do with not being able to CONTROL someone else's decision they disagree with.

>> not being able to CONTROL someone else's decision

what part of the word "life-living-becoming human" don't you understand?
Everyone deserves a birthday.

"Everyone deserves a birthday"

Bumper sticker mentality

My birthday...June 9th...a reality every year and surprisingly never been on a bumper sticker.

When a woman makes a personal decision about her body, like it or not, it is a personal decision about her body. This is a free country, and she has that prerogative. As Andy so smartly pointed out, where there is no breath, there is no life. Women go through enough anguish having an abortion without suffering additional pain and punishment from pius patriarchal penis-wielders.

When Mommy packs the kids in the Buick and shoves them down the boat ramp into a lake, it is murder. When Mommy wants to troll for sausage, dumps the kids on a crackhead neighbor and they die behind a couch, it is murder. When Mommy leaves little junior in a boiling minivan while she spends three hours at the mall, it is murder.

When a Mommy who never ever should have had kids commits filicide, it is a symptom of a much much larger problem. Thousands of children each year die of abuse and neglect. Millions more suffer from chronic hunger. Virtually every case is a tragedy that could have been avoided by education, intervention, and yes, birth control.

I believe we should celebrate the great Dads and Moms we know, support them, and encourage them. When it comes to regulating millions of other folks' wombs, we ought to mind our own damn business. You don't have to agree with me, but I think that personal freedom is the fabric of our country. To me, that includes all health related decisions.

I also agree with Scott. Nobody is going to change any minds around here by hashing and rehashing it out.

Agreed.

Also, the current political environment does not lean toward less choice legislation. For a time, this discussion really is a distraction.

IMHO, a welcome change after the last 8 years.

That reality means all of us have a much stronger incentive to work on or toward those things that cut the numbers. That's always true, of course.

Should go without saying.

The only reason it hasn't is rendering the current legal bias in favor of choice moot, was on the table. Within striking range, so to speak.

That brought out those that want it huge, with obvious results.

Given that, keeping this discussion intense really only keeps those anti-choice people engaged and relevant. Being on the pro-choice side of things, this isn't in my best interests.

Going forward then, discussion on how to improve the state of things, while preserving the right to choose will be interesting and worthy enough for me to participate.

Anything else just isn't.

The minds won't change easily, if at all. However, the scope of the problem can. I'm all for dealing with that. Always have been.

There is common ground for everyone.

>>where there is no breath, there is no life

So someone who just died should not be revived?
A proto-person tissue fetus in their 9th month of gestation is not living?

So let's just cut to it, shall we?

What is your position on contraception Broadway? Are you in favor of it being available to any one that needs it?

What is your position on the morning after pill, as a special case of that being available after the act, but before fertilization can occur?

Finally, what is your position on availability of the RU-486 drug when used in the first, early stages, say a week, or maybe two?

In all three of those scenarios, we either don't have a pregnancy, or if we do, it's a few cells tops. Clearly not a person.

If you are about ending abortion, solid and aggressive pro positions on these things, plus education and alternatives (adoptions) are the anti-abortion hat trick!

So where are you at on that stuff? Let's talk something that's actually possible!

Methinks we shall wait, while he consults his Bible, and gets the official opinion of the Church he is a member of.

Sheeple, gotta love 'em.

No kidding!

I'm gonna do that every single time now. Simply derail the thing toward those positive tools we have right now that work on the problem TODAY.

Screw the debate. It's just a distraction, it's painful, and it's been costly in the form of "nothing else matters" voters voting bad people and bad policy in the off chance they could get their law.

It's never gonna happen. There will always be a debate. So then, reduce the problem big, debate is diminished, policy and people are better, and our lives improve.

That's where I'm at.

So Broadway, this is what you can look forward to here *always*. Bring this up, and you can expect to be called on to answer those questions, and detail why you insist on exacerbate the problem instead of helping to seriously mitigate it.

Just to hammer it home, here's another one:

Male birth control tech is coming along nicely. What do you think of that? Should we encourage that as well? Isn't it the responsibility of everyone to be careful and avoid unwanted pregnancy, not just the girls?


I'm thinking it's over if we do this. Instead of the framing we always get from the pro-life crowd, just break the frame, and ask these questions hard. If we do that, it's over.

We can move on to solutions, not pain.

>>Let's talk something that's actually possible

Most of abortions are for birth control and done on demand for it. The real choice here is to choose to not have sex until they can perform the responsibilities of parenthood...hey...a model for that has been around for a while called marriage...how profound....and I did not call my pastor to get this answer..just common sense and...well...The Bible has a few things to say about marriage too!

Ok, so that's one solution.

What about the others?

Is that your only answer; namely, just don't have sex?

LOL!!!

You go ahead and tell that to your average 18 - 24 year old.

They will laugh their ass off and listen a bit harder to the people educating them, giving them tools to help cut the risk.

You do know you can do those things, and encourage them to wait. This is what I do, by the way.

My two older kids didn't buy the wait thing. Bummer that, but they are also not as high risk. Had they not been educated, they probably would be in trouble that way right now.

So why not take the safest route Broadway? These things are not exclusive.

Is this a "reap what you sow", "teach people a lesson", holier than thou kind of thing, or simple ignorance?

>>Ok, so that's one solution.
What about the others?

Society is going to have to come to grips that sex demands responsibility. The casual sex attitudes/practices we've had now for dozen's of years...well we're just beginning to reap generations of worsening societies for our country...but there is redemption available!

>>"reap what you sow"

a timeless human principle that has no ignorance or piety but is a Biblical concept...take it up with God directly...He listens.

Broadway, it's time for you to deal with the world as it is, and not the world as you want it to be. Premarital sex has been around forever, and will be around forever. How should a responsible society respond to this reality?

>>How should a responsible society respond to this reality?

Uphold and encourage right choices (righteousness)...and warn of consequences...not a bad thing.

Thanks for answering Broadway. I'll take that as a contraception is bad, education is bad answer, meaning you really don't want to work at eliminating the problem, only making choices for others.

That's the end of the discussion for me. I'm only interested in greater availability of real solutions, not more dogma.

Abstinence-only sex education does not work. Period. Take contraceptives out of it and ban abortion, and if an unmarried woman succumbs to passion (or is raped) and gets pregnant, she's either going to seek out a dangerous back-alley abortion or be forced to have a baby she may not want, when she's not ready. Welcome back to the 19th century!

>>forced to have a baby she may not want

Thank God your mother was pro-life

>>unmarried woman succumbs to passion

that's where the right choice needs to be made. Our society and many on this board does not discourage this "passion" so no wonder we have unplanned pregnancies, STD's run amock and kids raising kids. Hate to see my grandkids generation.

>>(or is raped)

3% of all abortions
http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/Othersconceivedinrape.html

GOD BROADWAY you are such a prude!

If you don't mind me asking, when was the last time you masturbated Broadway?

Broadway: Thank God your mother was pro-life

How do you know she was anti-choice? Lots of mothers are pro-choice and have had abortions. I know several women who told me they had abortions when young and never regretted their decision - and either have had kids since or are still planning to.

that's where the right choice needs to be made. Our society and many on this board does not discourage this "passion" so no wonder we have unplanned pregnancies, STD's run amock and kids raising kids. Hate to see my grandkids generation.

Oh, dear, I think you don't understand that lust isn't particularly rational. While clearly it's a good idea for people to avoid unprotected sex when they are not ready to be parents, it doesn't always happen. That's lust for you. And after the passion wears off, they may not be ready to be parents.

Lots of gawd-fearing church-going folk succumb to passion when they aren't ready to be parents - not just the heathens here. And you might be surprised how, when it hits their own family, how some of the holier-than-thou anti-choicers sitting next to you on at church will discretely take their pregnant teenage daughters to the abortion clinic when lust strikes their family. I know of several cases personally where that has happened. Funny how having an unwanted pregnancy in your own family can change your views on abortion, eh?

Teenage pregnancy is highest in the bible belt and there's a reason why.

>>Funny how having an unwanted pregnancy in your own family can change your views

making it ok to kill? My point...abortion is wrong...it's murder...nothing prude about that...but there is redemption!

You know I like to fix stuff. There is nothing worse than a big ass guilt trip, with no call to action!

I already am an advocate for not having abortions. Most people are.

We've got education going. Contraceptives are available and improving. Many people are waiting. There are alternatives, like adoption.

So here's what I want to know Broadway:

What do you expect us to do exactly?