When I first heard the story about these cookies on Phil Hendrie's show, I wanted somebody to tell me that this was a hoax. Unfortunately, it's true! The Lafayette French Bakery in Greenwich Village, NY created chocolate cookies that were made to look like a caricature of a Black man's face, complete with red eyes. See http://gothamist.com/2009/01/23/greenwich_village_bakery_selling_dr.php

The proprietor of the bakery had the nerve to say that these cookies were created in honor of Obama's inauguration!

For the record, I think that a white chocolate cookie marketed as a "drunken Irish guy" would be in equally poor taste. This makes "The Sock Obama" look not-as-bad.

Yeah, some morons will do anything for attention.

It would be a shame if his oven set the building on fire!

Nice to hear you say that considering the way you've been beating up on President Obama.

I may not care for Obama or his stand on many things, but I'm not a racist!

I may not care for Obama or his stand on many things, but I'm not a racist!


Too bad most of the EXTREME RIGHT doesn't feel like that.....

I'm not convinced all of that is racially driven.

Hear me out!

The 23 percenters are the "nothing else matters" crowd. They literally can't reason correctly because they have confused strong conviction for truth, and this opens the door for those they consider authorities to empower them to rationalize ANYTHING.

Think about that for a moment.

ANYTHING!

It's all on the table. It's on the table because NOTHING ELSE MATTERS!

Their only goal is their agenda. The ends totally justify the means. These people support war, torture, theft from the people and a ton of other things we all have experienced.

It's not much of a stretch to see these types playing the "you reap what you sow" card on all of this stuff, in some bizzare and twisted view where they don't see it as race as much as they see it tearing down the "wrong" side. That side that will "doom" us and all that other booga-booga, fire and brimstone crap.

Many of these people are control freaks, and they love strong, authoritarian personas, mostly because their own internal mental confusion leaves them frustrated, confused --->GREY!

They've got who they are wrapped up in this. It's an all in scenario where failure not only means just not accomplishing whatever they think is the "nothing else matters" deal, but failure to do what it takes to be granted their after-life reward, and be accepted by their peers.

It's an ugly scene, not unlike the kind of scene where you've got junkies all reinforcing themselves, and maybe members of some kind of gang.

When all your valuable people are vested in this, it's like turning away from family. Life is a complete reset, if you stray one bit.

Sure, that's an ugly view, and I'm truly sorry for contributing it here, and even more sorry if it's offensive.

(though, if it is, know I'm avaliable to talk about it --seriously!)

All of these factors combined mean a very high pressure environment where comic relief is largely about diminishing others, because all the ordinary funny stuff we fairly healthy people, who don't define ourselves by our commitments to the dogma, find funny just isn't funny!

It can't be, because the root of all classic and timeless humor is truth! And if you are confused about the truth, in particular what is really known true and what is belief and choice, then you will be confused about the humor!

And that's generally not funny to anyone, unless laughing at the confusion is itself funny.

Remember that "half hour news hour" show? It just wasn't all that funny. It was mostly diminishing others, while not really adding a lot of value in terms of perspective on truth that was presented in a healthy way.

That is what it's like, and why it's like that.

Sadly, I think a lot of them are not at fault directly. Somebody did it to them early on in life, and let it fester, making it very difficult to escape and break the cycle today.

Missing, I think that may be over analyzing it.

I'd bet a good steak dinner that one of the main reasons (other than they guy is an idiot) is for attention.

If people (mainly the press) would just ignore guys like this, he'd see that his action isn't stirring up any attention and he'd just go away.

Anyway, that's my take on it, for what it's worth!

If people (mainly the press) would just ignore guys like this, he'd see that his action isn't stirring up any attention and he'd just go away.

Doesn't work. Case in point: Rush Limbaugh. Last week before Obama took the oath Rush said: "I hope he fails".

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090125/OPINION/90125030 4

Rush Limbaugh hates America.

Yeah, but Rush is the press. People should ignore him too!

I listened for a short while when Clinton first took office, but his show got real old real fast. It's the same thing over and over and over.

Haven't listened to him for years (or any talk radio for that matter).

I'd much rather listen to music.

Rush feeds that stuff. There are a lot of people who are going down that exact road I mentioned.

Those 23 percenters are quite often that way, and worse!

Think of Rush as air cover. He makes a lot of money broadcasting that crap, so there is a perception of acceptance surrounding it. From there, it filters down to various peer groups, and from there to the nut-bag who actually buys into the bull shit.

I honestly don't think he buys what he is selling. It's sales people! He knows what the value of that perception of acceptance is worth, and is more than happy to provide it.

He's not stupid enough to buy it. No way. He is however slimy enough to know the damage it causes, but he's got his nut made, so he really doesn't care about it past that.

What Rush Limbaugh does on the radio, IMHO, isn't much different than Jerry Springer. Both are selling lowest-common-denominator junk, hatred and intolerance, and neither buys into what they are selling, but it's getting mega ratings, and mega bucks for them.

For some, the almighty dollar, and rabble-rousing, is more important than what TRULY matters - the betterment of the United States of America. I know that Skybill, Broadway and others in here aren't on the Obama bandwagon, and that's fine. I respect that. I do truly believe, though, that they HOPE that Obama leads us in the right direction, and that we come out the other side better off. That's the hope ALL OF US HAVE.

I personally think a good step was today, where Obama taped an interview with an Arabic network telling the people of that region that the United States holds no hostilities towards the Muslim people, and that he wants diplomacy before force. I personally believe that Obama will be a man of his word here, I welcome open dialogue with our adversaries, a detente, and an agreement on peace.

Rush is no different than Tom Leykis..They are both entertainers. It's just show business fokes.

Rush Limbaugh hates America.

I don't think this is true. He might be UNAmerican but I don't think he hates America. He's UNAmerican because he doesn't believe in what the President does. That's UNAmerican.... At least it was for everyone that didn't think like DUHbya....

Steve, you can at least understand the frustration that some people have with Rush and his listeners, right? His listeners use / quote what he says as proof or examples of how to think or act all the time. But when it gets sticky for either Rush or his listeners ( as in " Wait a minute - but you said the opposite of that when your guy was running things " ) then it becomes " Oh, Rush is just an entertainer. We don't really think like he does."

I call complete bullshit. You are lying. He's NOT just an entertainer. And depending on the day, you know it too. Rush would never just it's " just show business." because if he did, he knows he loses credibility with his listeners. His ability to do what he does BANKS on people beliving what he says is true. Not entertainment.

CJ, you're right in the sense that Rush pushes what he says as true and credible.

But it is what it is, still, entertainment. It might be his beliefs largely, and he is largely "preaching to the choir", but it is still entertainment.

Jerry Springer has come out multiple times and said his show, the topics, the guests, everything, it's all a hoax. It still gets ratings, people still love it.

It is what it is.

Well if it's so obviously entertainment, then why do so many people look to Rush and the like as a moral compass so often?

There are lots of people to whom if you'd try and say " You're being fooled " would disagree. They believe what is being said. Anyone playing on that is not entertaining. Not just in my opinion, but by definition.

And if Rush is entertainment, then what ISN'T entertainment?

Not rhetorical; What isn't entertainment? I don;t think the line is even blurred in this case. I think it's clear that Rush wants to be a movement. He's attempting to cause real change. he wants to help shape opinions and show results based on his rallying crys. That is not entertainment. It may be entertainING, but there is an agenda. And it's shouted loudly and is to be taken seriously - according to Rush himself. There is no way you can have it both ways on that front.

Dismissing it as entertainment, when the person who is saying that stuff knows better, is akin to things much more sinister.

It's frustrating.

CJ--people follow both Tom and Rush. It's show business period.

It's show business period.

No, its not.

Limbaugh, Leykis, Hendrie, Savage, etc. are "info-tainment" They take the events of the day and spin them or otherwise present them in a way that will keep the audience listening to the radio. The dual information-entertainment nature of infotainment is much like the dual particle-wave nature of an electron.

Hijack start;

Alfredo, check your email.

Hijack over!

I don't think it's all just show or info-tainment.

The producers of that crap are delivering it to somebody.

That somebody, is generally a problem! By continuing to promote the idea that the kinds of views being discussed here are ok, they have some greater involvement than "it's just for show", or "they were just kidding".

That's BS.

The crowd I wrote about above exists. I've met these kinds of people. They buy the lie. These things are serious with them, because they have an axe to grind, and anybody who can help them grind it is OK, even if they would not otherwise be OK.

And the crux of it for me is the programming is not often clear, in-terms of this is entertainment.

Andrew Dice Clay is entertainment. He's a comic, he's there to piss everybody off, and everybody knows it's crap.

Limbaugh has listeners who don't think he's a comic, and who consider the program informative and who don't know it's crap.

Limbaugh, Hannity, hell most of FOX, all post up this air of credence that simply isn't warranted, given the garbage that is being aired. There is a lot of association to nationalism and authority that actually make it difficult to reconsile with the idea that it's all just for show.

To the 23 percenters, those freepers, nut bags, axe grinders, bigots, IT'S NOT SHOW. It's their release in that they know they are not alone. Other people suck too, and that's just how the world works, and maybe that's how it should work for real, because GOD said so, or because it's right, or whatever other thing they have to rationalize not doing the work necessary to be healthy people.

Those listeners are not just glad to hear an entertaining program. They are thinking, "how many more people can we get on my side?".

And it's complex too. I'll give you all that. But, I can't just say it's entertainment and dismiss all the obvious implications. It isn't.

There are way too many people who self-identify with that shit, and that's just not ok. Frankly, it's not healthy at all.

We've got people burning down Obama supporters houses, the silly songs (and from the damn RNC too), racial slurrs, and other things going on that target minority people of all kinds.

Rush might be above that in that perhaps he really doesn't buy what he is selling. However, he is selling it to SOMEBODY though, and that somebody is highly likely to BUY IN to the BULL.

With his numbers, that's a problem, unless it's absolutely clear it's entertainment, and guess what?

It's often not all that funny, so how does that work then?

Exactly!

People consider it authoritative and informative, and they IDENTIFY with it, and NEED it to feel like they are NORMAL, when they are probably just ASSES.

Brianl... I've noted that about Springer. He's doing show. No question.

Has anyone ever heard Rush do that? Are there any sources that indicate he has ever done that?

I don't know of any.

That's the difference. It's the same kind of slimy "Fair and Balanced" crap that FOX pulls.

They are not fair, nor are they balanced.

What they are is doing and supplying things to people that think it's "fair" in order to provide "balance" in the form of the perception of way greater mainstream acceptance of their shit than really exists.

What they are is doing and supplying things to people that think it's "fair" in order to provide "balance" in the form of the perception of way greater mainstream acceptance of their shit than really exists.

Missing, that's your point of view and opinion.

To the conservatives, the liberal talk shows are the same thing as you describe.

What's good for one is just as good for the other.

No matter who is on the radio/TV and they take a stance for something, anything, they are going to be wrong to some percentage of the people.

I don't listen to either side of talk radio, so I don't really care what either side spews forth. I base my opinions on what I believe, not what some radio show host says.

Steve, these seem like fairly easy questions to answer.

I'm not asking you to prove anything. I'm asking what you believe;

Do you believe that Rush says things that he doesn't actually believe to be true?

When he says them, do you believe that everyone knows he doesn't actually believe them? Because THAT seems like what should happen if it's entertainment. Do you believe that IS what happens?

Or do you believe that there is a significant amount of people that DO believe it?

Skybill said " I don't listen to either side of talk radio, so I don't really care what either side spews forth. I base my opinions on what I believe, not what some radio show host says."

Good. I try and do that too. But as an exercise, WHY do you not believe what they say?

What kind of trouble do you get in if you do?

CJ, for me anyway, it's not so much that I don't believe what they say as that I take it with a grain of salt.

I also realize that everything they do is to gain ratings and advertisers dollars, so I'm very skeptical about what I hear from them.

Also, I'd bet all those programs are like soap operas. I haven't listened to them for years and if I started to again, I could pick up right where I left off!

Skybill, the difference is the liberals are unabashadely liberal! It's ok to do that, it's honest to do that, and they do that because their positions are defensible, given the facts at hand.

Many conservatives DO NOT do that, and their positions are not all that defensible, given the facts at hand. (and they blur the line between fact and opinion to a much higher degree as well)

My problem with it, is exactly that. It's not the bias, or the BS. It is the false positioning of it, the implication that it's authoritative somehow, when it really isn't.

Of course you think the liberal programming is that way. Understandable.

However, you won't hear "the truth", or "fair and balanced" as branding. That's not honest, and it's harmful to do.

That's the beef. If it's just entertainment, then we can label it as such. When I call Limbaugh a buffoon, many conservatives get pissed off, as if he deserves some respect or has some authority.

Well, he's either doing show business, and it's all fun and games, or it isn't!

If, he's not entertaining, then it's really bad form to advocate many of the things he does, and also he then needs to come clean on the bias, like the liberals do.

That's the problem stated another way.

To me, it's way more offensive to hide behind that ambiguity than it is to just step up and be clear about what the program is.

I think they are less than clear because more clarity would see far less acceptance of very questionable material.

Why?

Because a very high percentage of the time, the facts do not support the advocacy. That's why.

There is another way to put this.

So I've got some people I know, that I don't see all that often. Some of them think I'm "in the conservative club".

I started the role play for professional reasons (and that's ugly... buy me a beer sometime, and I'll tell some more about it). After seeing some of this stuff play out, I ended up continuing for morbid curiosity reasons. I do that sometimes. Sue me. LOL!!

So, we have a conversation about the "black guy", tnat Obama character that's gonna ruin the country.

I've ran this a coupla ways. One is, to just play the club card and see where the conversation goes. Guess what? They don't end up saying they are kidding, and will often reinforce the negative kinds of messages we've all discussed here!

Played that quite a ways, never heard it. Never even got a hint that it was anything other than acceptable to talk "among friends in the club". They buy that BS, have those racist feelings, and are damn glad to know they are not alone, and that they are talking to somebody else not willing to do the work to make it ok.

(and that's tough to experience that, given what you all know I've written here)

Now, playing it the other way, going a ways down the road, then letting it be known I'm maybe friendly, but "not in the club".

I hear, "Just kidding!" more than I care to admit!

This is the line that Limbaugh and others walk. These are the people he feeds, and it's not cool.

Not talking about conservative ideas -vs- liberal ones. I'm talking about racism, bigotry and such. Known shitty things EVERYBODY should feel bad about.

Just kidding...

I didn't write that ugly analysis up-thread from just thinking it through. I've checked a bit of this out, and it's for real. People do that. They have those problems, and they need acceptance, or they have to face them because the pressure would force that, as it does for most healthy people.

In fact, that's why most of us are healthy! The dialog and regular interactions kind of reinforce that. Norms are the tools. With solid norms and expectations about these things, people do the work to play ball.

Without them, or being able to go places where they don't apply, gives a release valve. "Among friends in the club", so to speak.

Rush is an entertainer for those among us that just like the word play. He's also an entertainer when it's handy to avoid actually having to account for the shit he condones too.

Sorry to weave off topic, but this stuff cuts both ways.

Having a Black son has raised my awareness of this crap enough to warrant some real life social investigation. That's what I'm posting here.

It is a problem. The conservatives, hiding behind bull shit branding, are making money feeding this garbage, and it's just not ok.

Two things:

One, I'm not tagging anybody here. That's not my intention. Simply supporting a point at this time.

Two. Playing that game is less than honest. I know that. Sorry.

Ask around here politely. There are some other contributors that will vet what I have said. They have experienced it. I know it from their writing.

Someone here said: It's just show business fokes.

Apparently some Republican leaders don't think so:

Rush Limbaugh is taking heat from all sides for his comments about hoping President Obama's administration is a failure. Bill Bennett disagreed with his fellow conservative and said Limbaugh was wrong to say he wishes Obama will fail. Now Politico reports that Republican House member Phil Gingrey has a message for Limbaugh: back off.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/27/gop-house-member-to-rush_n_161484.html

While on the other hand, Obama is using Rush for entertainment:

Right now Rush is being played. The Obama dinner with conservative columnists, shortly before his inauguration, was as much about excluding Rush as coddling the columnists. Not only did the conservatives fawn, but Rush fumed. It got under his skin.

(Same link)

And there is this; Dems Launch Online Petition Against Rush Limbaugh

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/01/27/dems-launch-online-petit ion-rush-limbaugh/

This thread has gone a long way from "cookies"!!!

Yeah it has.

It's easy to see why people are upset. Where's the upside for us?

Obama pushes policy that would make Republicans proud. Let's take that one.

So, he does this and succeeds. That validates the ideological part of it, but basically invalidates the Republicans. Our lives are decent, but it took a Democrat to get it done. Republicans just are not good enough.

Say he does this and fails! Well, doesn't that just invalidate both the ideology as well as Democrats in general, leaving Republicans to pull the "real change" card next cycle? Also, leaving Rush as the "I told you so" master?

(thought so --and that's a wet dream come true as Obama wouldn't go there. Nobody would, as we know it is a failure from direct experience)

Now, say it's progressive policies. New Deal type focus. Less emphasis on tax cuts, and a lot more on jobs, labor issues, you know the list.

Obama fails. So, we don't get change that works, just change, Democrats suck, we lose another 4 years of ground. Republicans are up and can try to take power again and do what?

Same old same old?

Most importantly, our lives don't improve. That sucks.

Obama nails it! Our lives improve significantly. Progressive ideas are great, just like the last time they were great!

Republicans are bumming huge! They've pitched the idea that it would suck to go down this road since Reagan. Going down it to find out it doesn't suck means a nice majority for a long time.

It plays out lots of ways, but the key here is that we are not gonna see Obama just execute the Republican economic ideology better and some how succeed. Republicans themselves could have done that, meaning if it had a shot at working, we might have seen that.

Obama is gonna go the Progressive route, and that's the referendum delivered this last election.

So then, Limbaugh wants failure just because it gives Republicans an out to stay in the game, our lives be dammed?

What an asshole. Entitled, selfish, bigoted, racist, white ass. We don't matter, only the ideology matters.

Oh yeah.

Just kidding!

See how that works now Skybill?

If Limbaugh is an entertainer, and his program is framed that way, his statement is kind of funny really! The buffoon I often label him fits!

We get to laugh at it, and it's all good.

If, on the other hand, he's not really an entertainer, then what? He's actually serious somehow? And that means some of what I just wrote then doesn't it?

Well, that's not funny. It's really ugly, and of course he's an ass for it.

Which is it?

Hey. I'm not supporting Rush or any of the talk show bafoons.

Doesn't matter which side of the fence they are on, their #1 priority, bar none, is to get listeners and ratings as that translates DIRECTLY into advertising dollars.

They will say and do whatever they need to to accomplish that.

Well, you can do that and reinforce making peoples lives better, and that's good right? That is what many talkers are about.

So, what's Rush doing exactly? There really isn't a scenario where we come out ok, unlike many who didn't support the Republicans, but also didn't want this mess either.

Nobody I know hoped Bush sucked. We were hoping for the best, like we always do. He just happened to not be good.

That's why there is a petition. Limbaugh is basically saying he can profit from our misery, and hopes it comes to pass, so he can see the masters of delivering it; namely, Republicans, have a shot at delivering some more!

By contrast, we've got Hartman working hard to educate people and advocate for things that will make our lives better.

And he's unabashedly liberal about it, and I think it's very difficult to characterize him as a buffoon.

That's why there isn't a petition.

So let's get back to this clown with the cookies. Wonder if he's a Rush listener.

Wonder if he's just kidding among, you know, friends in the club?

No several of you are missing the point. The reason any pro does a show is to win in the ratings. Different people do different things. Weather its Howard Stern, Tom Leykis, Rush or Dr. Laura. Its all show business. Some people believe there schitck. But it all boils down to one thing that matters. RATINGS.

And Chris Matthews with his "shivers up my legs" is GOOD news coverage?
Brother.

Well Steve, if Rush is just entertainment, then why he calims that Obama is afraid of him is beyond me. Oh wait, THAT'S part of the show too, right? He's pretending to be bothered by being snubbed.

I believe I see the point you are trying to make. I just do not believe it applies here at all.

So we can expect everyone here, because we're all so smart, to remember that in the future when trying to give Rush any credibility, that's it's all fake.

In the absense of admitting that it's not, I think that's a good enough compromise.

Baby steps.

LOL!!!

Matthews actually does cover the events well. In the sense of traditional news coverage, he's poor. However, if one is measuring how informed somebody is, he's solid.

The difference is he presents it with his biased commentary.

I just don't see that as a bad thing, given it's clear that is what is going on.

@Stevethedj, of course that's what they are doing.

Here's the thing though: Selling hate, bigotry and other similar things is EASY.

Why?

Because of the kinds of people I posted up about up thread. Of course there are good ratings in that. They need the affirmation, because they are not gonna get it anywhere else, but perhaps their church, if they go to one of those that reinforces that kind of thing.

On the radio side, you posted up about them being loyal. Absolutely true. Their team is down. Took it in the sack hard --twice! Their fix for perception of acceptance and their behaviors being "normal" is in danger. They are going to be loyal mother fuckers. The loyalist!

By contrast, look at the Thom Hartman show in the morning and national here on KPOJ. That show has good ratings, and it does not do the lazy, easy sell.

...and the hosts buy what they are selling too. They make no bones about it being a talk program, and are clear when reporting facts vs doing advocacy.

I'm dubious as to Rush actually believing the crap he airs. Maybe he does, maybe not. He's absolutely not clear about the entertainment factor, nor about differentiating facts vs advocacy.

Frankly, neither answer is good where believing his own BS is concerned! Let's break it down:

If he does believe that crap, he's a very bad person, who happens to be a great broadcaster. (and he is, no question)

If he doesn't, then he's enabling a lot of shit, and living huge from doing it. That's not cool either, in the same way that the NAMBLA people are not cool because of who they cater to.

This is not to say all conservatives are racists and bigots. They are not. However, there are that 23 percent who are, and are not gonna budge one bit. That's the base, that's the numbers, that's the loyalty.

Then we've got the whole, "just kidding, it's entertainment" dynamic I mentioned above. So which is it?

Either he's a cheap showman, pandering to the lowest of the low, or he's actually doing some news and his commentary is worth something.

Again, neither answer is good!

If he's actually some kind of authority, then what the fuck? He wants the President to fail, us get screwed, and to profit from that? And the facts surrounding the general state of our lives support that how exactly?

Run down the list of these items from the progressive side, and it's a whole different ball game.

It's not an easy sleezy sell, they don't profit from failure or feeding bad behaviors, and they are clear about bias -vs- facts and commentary.

They can be, because they are not bottom feeding. There is no reason to hide the bias. It's just full on advocacy, with the best of intentions. Either it makes good sense, or it doesn't. No need to be unclear about it to make the presentation more defensible.

Those things can't be said of most conservative talkers.

In particular, they can't be said of Rush Limbaugh.

> Last week before Obama took the oath Rush said: "I hope he fails".

Unless Rush was using the word "hope" as a pun on Obama's campaign posters bearing the same word, I find his remark very ironic. If Rush truly believed that the ideology behind the Obama administration were flawed, then he should be certain that Obama will fail.