I just found this site: http://www.well.com/user/dmsml/look.html It includes photos and some history of The Stonehenge and other towers around the country.

If you click on the Stonehenge link and scroll all the way to the bottom, you will see the story of how the former 95.5/95.7 (KXL-FM/KPRA) transmitter site was converted to a home. The only part of that story that I think might be typo is the claim that in 1959, this was the transmitter site for Channel 27. I had read elsewhere that Channel 27 went dark in 1957 and stayed that way for decades.

The most interesting part about this story is that the tower was mounted on insulators to prevent pattern distortion of KPAM 1410, which was located nearby back then. In converting this site to a residence, the tower was removed, and a deck was built atop the tower foundation, on the insulators.

I think that ch. 27 returned to the air briefly (under different owners) as KHTV, from that site, rather than the Council Crest tower.

I was wrong; I had thought that when KPTV and KLOR merged, channel 27 immediately became KHTV under different ownership. The Wikipedia article for KPTV states that KHTV operated from July 6 through October 31, 1959.

Currently channel 27 is where OPB broadcasts its ATSC streams.

(Incidentally, which tower does OPB's 27 come from, anyways? It's been coming in uncharacteristically lousy at my apartment lately, for some reason. I think the wind blew the antenna around somewhat and re-positioned it to a less-than-optimal spot on the balcony.......)

Skyline site, see the "Skyline" tour on the SBE 124 website:

http://www.sbe124.org/Tours/index.html


If you can see the west hills from your location, point your antenna toward the tower that appears to have 3 antennas in a triangle at the top.

Thanks....I rerotated my antenna a bit toward that direction and at this moment I am getting a 96% copy of 10-01 (OPB's widescreen programme) on the Pansat.

Yeah, I can see the west hills from the apartment. In most cases I can see the airport and on a *really* clear day I can sometimes see the Fremont Bridge in the distance (I usually need binoculars for that.) I picked this place specifically for the FM/TV and satellite reception.

I missed 95.7! I thought KXL began on 95.5, replacing KGMG.

In early 1948, when KPRA changed from 97.7 to 95.5 would any listener, in the days of drifty Vacuum Tube FM radios with strong AFC, even have noticed?

I'm guessing that most listeners would have thought that the tuning drifted on their radios, re-tuned, and forgotten about it.

I have a 1948 vintage Zenith 7H820 AM/"FM 45"/"FM 100" table radio. The front end of the radio uses a 12BA6 for the RF preamp and a 12BE6 for the converter. These tubes are used for both AM and FM operation; bandswitching is performed merely by putting different tanks into the circuit. Surprisingly, this makes for a pretty good FM front end. There is no AFC, so the radio drifts a little bit as it warms up. Where this radio's front end really shines is on overload performance: I have a 6 element log-periodic about 40' in the air, pointed at the West Hills antenna farms. This antenna picks up enough signal that a diode detector connected to it will produce enough current to deflect the needle on a D'ansorval meter movement! Varactor-tuned radios have difficulty with overload if no attenuators are used. Not so with the 7H820--I can tune around all of the local Portland blowtorch stations without a trace of intermod.

The FM IF signal path on this radio has three double-tuned transformers before the signal gets to the limiter tube. Although the skirts aren't as sharp as they could be on a radio using ceramic filters (and they certainly aren't as sharp as on a radio with a DSP-based IF filter), the selectivity still falls in the "not-too-shabby" range. For instance, if I tune from 95.5 to 97.1, I can pick out the two K-Love translators (95.9 and 96.3), as well as the talk station on 96.5. I can also receive the 107.1 translator with a fairly good signal-to-noise ratio. The one local signal I can't receive clearly is the 5 watt translator on 91.9; it is buried under the IBOC sidebands of KOPB and KGON.

I have to hand it to the engineers that designed this thing for effectively future-proofing their circuit. I don't think that the electrical and radio engineers of 1947-1948 were seriously anticipating that one day the FM band would be so crowded and that the signal levels would be so high.

"I think that ch. 27 returned to the air briefly (under different owners) as KHTV, from that site, rather than the Council Crest tower."
Yes, this had been discussed a lot on this board a few years back.
KHTV had their offices in the Regal building downtown. Their studio and transmitter were in the building on Healy Heights. The building had a door going to the street. The studio was inside that door on the street level. The control room was one level down. It was a small operation....b/w only. When they had car commercials, they would open the door to the studio, point the camera out the door and drive the cars by on the street as they were advertising them live. Everything they did was live or on film. They did not have tape machines back then.

Here's a link to the thread about the dismantling of the former KXL-FM/KHTV site: ../995/2516.html"#f7f7f7" align=left> Author: Jr_tech
Thursday, October 09, 2008 - 2:12 pm

Zenith 7H820
"not-too-shabby"

Sounds like the 7H820 outperforms my older but similar 8H023 model (which uses octal tubes - 6AG5 RF). I may have to retract my above statement implying that the 95.7/95.5 change was probably undetectable by radios of the era. My 8H023 is in "as found" condition, so may improve with restoration/alignment.

"They did not have tape machines back then."

Of course the big networks had Video tape before 1959 (Douglas Edwards news, Nov. 30 1956 is reported to be the first use), but I suspect that it was a few years before a VTR made it's way to a Portland station... Anybody have a date and station for the "first VTR in Portland" title?

Actually, 1956 was the year 2" quad machines first went into use.
Video tape dates to 1951.

KATU had four quad machines, one of which was donated to the Oregon Historical Society, two were shipped out to stations that bought them and the fourth was still in service when I left in 1994. They were not fun to work on.

I'm sorry, I just discovered the other thread was retired and had missed the last few comments. In answer to one of them, KFI has been operating at 25kw. Class A KOXO-CA has applied to move its ANALOG signal from channel 51 to channel 6! That's 12 watts at 525 meters above sea level from its present spot in the west hills. It's a displacement application and doesn't affect the stations construction permit for a digital operation on another frequency.

As one who worked in the big copper-clad rooms 30-some years ago, this question: Where is 1410's tower(s) these days?

RJ

Oaks Park - the old KLIQ tower

They're diplexed with 1040, the original frequency for the tower.

> A KOXO-CA has applied to move its ANALOG signal from channel 51 to channel 6!

So that's be the February 2009 surprise: LPTVs on the low VHF channels! DXing low VHF is going to be interesting.

This has to be temporary while waiting for a sunset date. I'm surprised they would even bother with it.

This from All Access:

-----------------CFUN Transmitter Move Gets CRTC OK-----------------

The CRTC has approved CTV GLOBEMEDIA Talk CFUN-A/VANCOUVER's transmitter move to a new site 8 km southeast of the present location.

The change, which CTV says is necessitated by deterioration of the existing plant, will decrease the principal countour by an area with a population of 574,000.

I remember when CFUN was much stronger down this way. When 1410 KPAM was a daytimer, at sign off time it often just sounded like an abrupt switch to another song. And KPAM's flea power morning PSA would get torn to shreds by CFUN.

I don't think ANY of the AM's sound as solid today as they did during AM's heyday. Why? The bean-counters no longer embrace P.M. (preventative maintenance)...in other words doing what needs to be done to sound "best in the market." In the old days, signal was a big part of the battle. The AM that sounded like it was "burning a hole in the dial" was perceived as a power. Then add the right Music, content, and sizzle...making the listener afraid they're gonna miss something if they don't listen. Savvy owners would never give up a superior tower/broad-banded antenna for a cheaper site to operate. And the idea that off-the-shelf equipment just like everybody uses is going to make you sound better shows a lack of competitive thought. There was a day when engineers built "black boxes" to make their station sound better. Frequency specs of 100hz-18khz would be perceived to be the range of "flat" response. However, there is a lot of musical content/volume-energy below 100hz. Not passing this information limits competitiveness. Certainly, multi-band processing can keep it clean in the presence and high band, while allowing a "great" station to pass actual bass notes below 100hz. I guarantee you it's not being done today. Oh by the way, once the transmitter and processing is passing those lows...the STL must do the same, but it all begins at the source. Most of the consoles in Portland do not pass the lows. Geez...that would mean a creative engineer would have to put larger capacitors in the console/cd players/archive source. (By the way, it is still preferable to "dub" from CD into a recorder instead of "ripping a song." A diligent radio person can "ride gain" bringin up low passage in an intro to give the presence/volume/snap.) It's cheaper for the manufactures to not use larger premium caps, knowing corporate mentality is to buy the best...and the
manufacturer's mentality is to build it as cheaply as possible to meet those minimum specs.
Friends...amazing things happen when a broadcast facility really makes a commitment to beat the market....including stations in ones own cluster!!!

It still blows me away, how many PD's are allowing low quality audio files to play on their stations. It shows a real lack of passion...

Robin, an AM station who's sound had it altogether in its time-- Lucky 13 Kolorful KOL Seattle, say around 1967. Technically, it was a living creature of good processing- a bigger than life punch with compression that accentuated the reverb and ambience without crushing anything, and a good mix of strong bass, midrange and highs, all coupled with great programming. I was literally blown away, and that sound inspired me to try to recreate it at station after station. KOL was not perfectly clean -it was pushed to compete in loudness with stronger signals in the market, but the sound was exciting and big. It sounded that way in town or at a distance. I remember hearing it via its skywave skip over the Cascades in Eastern Washington, and the selective fading with its other worldly swishiness (kind of a constant "The Big Hurt" or "Itchy Coo Park" flanging effect) only added to the magical sound.

Then, somehow the KOL engineers managed to bring that sound to KOL-FM, thereby maintaining the excitement while taking advantage of the inherent cleanliness of FM. A friend's dad had a great stereo speaker system in his living room wall that delivered amazing low end bass, and when we turned on KOL-FM, The Association's "Along Comes Mary" produced unbelievably deep bass. That was an example of when a radio station could broadcast a recording so that it sounded better than the orignal record.

It would appear that classical music fans in Portland owe "Kolorful KOL" a debt of gratitude!

I concur. I grew up on KOL AM (and FM) of that era. It was an incredibly well processed sound, transmitted by the analog warmth of tube equipment, received on my end, by a classic 1958 hi-fi tube tuner/amplifier (from great US kit manufacturer Eico - like Heathkit, ya build it yourself).

Back then, there wasn't a stark difference in sound between AM and FM. Most tube AM radios from that era were manufactured with great quality. And great programmers, like Robin at KOL, raised the listening quotient even higher.

I would also like to commend Larry at KBPS AM & FM in striving to carry those important engineering fundamentals forward to today.

Robin is right,

Seems that audio quality and dial presence seem to have taken a back seat in the current radio environment. Bring on those big caps, I miss those 5Hz bass notes!

Nothin like (audio) old school...

I listened to KBPS-AM Sunday morning from 8:30- 10AM. I do not have an AM stereo receiver, but I do have a Pioneer HD radio in the car that sounds pretty good on AM on stations that put out a decent signal. Maybe it was the original medium they were playing but I did not hear any deep bass where I knew it existed on certain cuts. It sounded kinda narrow, not much highs and not much lows. It was OK but just not great. KXL seems to never have any lows. Their microphone, at least when Lars is on, has virtually no low frequency sound.......sounds kinda tinny. But, I don't listen to him anyway so I don't worry about it. KPAM sounds OK. 1010 wasn't bad when they played oldies. 1040 sounds great in HD, so does KEX. Actually, same for Disney 1640. But you can sure tell when the HD drops out.

I was at McChord Air Force Base in the mid 60's and agree about KOL. I had a small tube radio and it sounded great on AM. If I remember right, KJR also sounded good.

However, not all AM's sounded good back then. KISN did not sound good in the 50's and early 60's. Forgetting the constant ringing because of the 455 kHz IF in radios at the time, it always sounded overdriven but kids didn't care because they were interested in the music and generally didn't have stereos or HiFi's at the time. Car radios in the 50's usually had tubes and had vibrators buzzing away to convert the 12VDC to AC to run the radio. They made the station sound loud and that was the goal, as Robin mentioned. KGW and KEX sounded good at the time. KGW had an excellent signal. I think they were using an old Raytheon transmitter at the time by Expo. It was nice to look through the window on those transmitters and watch the glow from the finals when the music was playing. Boy would they light up on the bass notes.

This from The Dallas Business Journal:

-----------------------Transmitter Company Sold-----------------------

Friday October 10, 2008 by Jeff Bounds, Staff writer

Continental Electronics Corp., a maker of radio-frequency transmission equipment, has changed hands.

The business, which has been based in South Dallas for all of its 62 years, was purchased for $24.5 million by Lone Star CRA Fund LP of Dallas. The seller was New York-based Veritas Capital.

The privately held Continental manufactures radio-frequency transmitters used in high-definition radio broadcasting, AM and FM radio broadcasting and short-wave radio. Continental also sells its transmitters to government buyers, who use them communicating with underwater submarines and radar.

The third chunk of its business is making high-powered transmitters for scientific uses. Arthur Hollingsworth, founder and managing partner of the Lone Star CRA Fund, says Continental made the first transmitter to bounce a signal off a planet and back again. The company’s technology is found in the world’s largest radio telescope.

This is a trivial question that we will probably never know the answer to, so please don't attack me for being some wonk that cares about obscure details: where was the audio taken from in the 1965 studio airchecks of Don Holman that Ernie Hopseker put into his documentary? The audio sounds too clean to be off the air, but a very aggressive compressor/AGC can be heard at work. Drums and percussion sound slightly overdriven, and they ring for a long time after they are hit. When Don is talking, rumbling from traffic outside the studio can be heard, and this noise gets pumped up between words; in one part of the aircheck, you can tell when he opens and closes the mic because the rumbling starts and stops. Did KISN aircheck off of the modulation monitor? Or, is the compression heard just from the compressors that were built into their custom-made board? Was there a noticeable change in sound quality when they broadcast directly from the transmitter site during overnights?

Just a point of clarification...Yes, Larry Holtz was the chief engineer for KBPS-AM for a number of years, but he now only does engineering for KBPS-FM. Mike Johnson is my chief engineer now and is doing a terrific job of making our little AM sound like a million bucks!

Robin said "while allowing a "great" station to pass actual bass notes below 100hz. I guarantee you it's not being done today"

While I agree with the spirit of what Robin says technically he is a little out of touch with todays radio technology.

Current transmitters, consoles, and studio infrastructure at nearly all stations can pass audio down to as low as you want to go.

Mostly stations do employ a 50Hz high pass filter. This limitation is not the fault of the equipment.

Todays audio processors are light years ahead of those in the 60's 70's and even 80's.

The problem is more in how they are used.

These days engineers set the sound of a station mostly at the direction of the program director.

Most engineers these days are NOT audiophiles and if they are they realize that most listeners are not.

Somewhere in the 70's a lot of people decided it would be best for AM's to process their audio to sound best on a small paper coned car speaker. This faulty thinking still persists in the minds of some programmers who instruct their engineers to do just that.

Today while nearly ALL gear at a station, in the STL and at a transmitter can pass low frequencies there are many more pieces of gear in the chain that compromise these low tones.

excessive compression can reduce low frequency impact for instance... such as a leveling device (Compellor) ahead the the STL which is set up incorrectly...

low quality audio files can reduce the overall fidelity of any station. there should never be an MP3 on any stations air and that includes production. Unfortunatly MP3's are like crack to radio people who just dont understand... "its just easier" to get an MP3 in the email.

These days dubbing a CD into the system is no longer the best way... getting a .WAV file direct from a label and avoiding the analog to digital conversion of the CD method is even better. Ripping is not good, we agree, however it is quite common.

There is a profound lack of understanding when it comes to audio among programming people these days.

This will not get better as todays younger generations dont even understand that MP3 isn't a good quality medium.

I personally have put way too much bass on an AM signal... With todays solid state transmitters it is not a problem... too easy as a matter of fact... no modulation transformer to blow up with the excessive LF energy, etc.

Sure tubes sound warmer but most of what is percieved to be lower quality now compared to decades ago is in fact poor use of gear rather than poor gear.

I mean in markets like PDX or SEA...

smaller markets can get a pass because they dont hire engineers anymore.

The age old GIGO rule still appliess:

Garbage in, Garbage out.

Robin, your claims about bandwidth specs in Portland radio facilities is completely false. Where are you getting your information? Internet discussion groups? I would also argue that you can't back up your claim that the equipment of yesteryear was "better". I ran frequency sweeps on the Ward-Beck consoles in Z100 and KEX in 2000, and they were awful by standards at that time. Those consoles were installed in 1978. In 2000 we made modifications to the input modules to dramatically improve the instantaneous bass response on Z100. Then we replaced the console in 2001.

Current consoles in the control rooms of all Portland Clear Channel stations are fully capable of passing 20 Hz to 20 kHZ +0/-0.5 dB. All of our primary STLs run linear digital audio sampled at 44.1 kHz, 16 bit (fully capable of the same high standard). Auxiliary STLs run linear at 32 kHz sample rates, so they only spec at 20 Hz-16 kHz (beyond the limits of analog AM or FM, so it might be tough to notice). Having been in the studios of many of the other stations in the market I can assure you that "most of the consoles in Portland" have virtually flat response down to 20 Hz. Even the BMX consoles I last saw at CBS run 20-20k +0/-1.8.

If you don't like the way a certain station sounds, then make a clearly subjective comment about it. You can't just pull numbers out of the air to claim that most of the broadcast engineers in the market are asleep at the switch without backing it up.

If you want to believe that the audio quality of radio stations running cart decks, reel to reel machines, equalized loops, and transmitters that required a 24/7 babysitter were better, that's your problem.

If anything is the problem it would be cheaply made radios.

Ouch! I don't think the critique is with any Portland radio engineering team, as the folks operating Clear Channel, Entercom and CBS, OPB etc... have great sounding properties and do the best they can within their corporately mandated rules. I think the lament is directed more at the radio industry in general and how things have changed.

For example, rolling off the higher audio frequencies with AM band transmissions. I know most receivers made today don't even pass those frequencies and there are other technical reasons for the audio slicing.

Here's what I think we should do: the industry is changing. It's "water over the bridge" now. Embrace the new technology. Get a new HD radio and revel in how good AM can sound, as KEX does with this new transmission system.

I thought we were talking about the erosion of AM signals and audio over the years. All the broadbanding in the world is negated by digital STL's at low sampling rates. Ever notice how "highs" sound like air escaping from a tire. That's because audiophiles have made a case that sampling rates should be 5 times higher than the highest high you hope to pass without coloring. That would mean 75k to pass a pristine 15k high...100k to pass pristine 20k.
Otherwise, you end up with "partial information" instead of true reproduction of an original sound. One other thing...notalent....I differ with your suggestion regarding "dubbing" of CD's or other audio to make a master copy. Nothing is lost, if you have a Digital board that passes 20hz-20khz. Instead, you have a human making a programming decision regarding how the passage will sound best....have maximum impact...on his/her radio station. It's off-the-shelf vs. creative programmming/engineering subjectivity.
That's what PDs and Engineers used to be paid for...using the sum total of their observation of human nature and how listeners will react to stimulus. If you only had to look at an oscilloscope to make decision, an engineer could be more easily replaced. Of course, PD's & DJ's are easily replaced these days by computers, because they're so darn entertaining. And of course, overworked Engineers have their hands full just keeping 6-8 stations on the air, while maintaining IT, and changing lightbulbs. I think we all can agree, radio is so much better today than it ever was before.

"That's because audiophiles have made a case that sampling rates should be 5 times higher than the highest high you hope to pass without coloring. That would mean 75k to pass a pristine 15k high...100k to pass pristine 20k.
Otherwise, you end up with "partial information" instead of true reproduction of an original sound."

Not true, Robin. That is, audiophiles may think that, but it's not accurate. It's just another mistake audiophiles make. It's about bits per sample (bit depth) not samples per second.

20 and 24 bit CD's sound so much better than the original 16 bit CD's because of bit depth, not the development of oversampling. In fact, oversampling is the cheap way to get better resolution for reasons beyond the tolerability of most readers here, but here's more info for the brave:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oversampling

As usual it's all about money spent on A/D and D/A. Not audio quality. In a digital delivery, there is still a D/A conversion at the consumer end where all the artifacts created manifest themselves as distortion. IBOC was never developed for audiophiles anyway.

Besides, AM has next to no music on it anymore, I think. I don't know for sure because I stopped listening to the radio over 10 years ago, except for an occasional Blazer game if I'm in the car.

While in Medford recently, I heard low quality source material (audio files) on nearly all the FM's, with ear-piercing artifacts. There's really no excuse for allowing this garbage to stay on the air. These files can easily be replaced.

any stations have decorative landscaping around the tower(s)??

KTRO modified its application to 2.6kw daytime and 4.3kw nighttime. The application has been granted. At night, coverage of Clackamas County that's always been missing is within the 5mv/m contour. Hopefully, they can do something about the daytime coverage that still cuts off Hillsboro after the modification. If anyone missed it, KTRO 910 and KFXX 1080 plan to diplex on a new tower array to be built just west of the current KFXX site.

> Here's what I think we should do: the industry is changing. It's "water over the bridge" now. Embrace
> the new technology. Get a new HD radio and revel in how good AM can sound, as KEX does with this new
> transmission system.

I'm not trying to be a "stick in the mud," but I think that there is an important philosophical issue underneath this that I think can make for good discussion, given thoughtful commentary and appropriate decorum: is "industry unity" important in the broadcasting industry (or possibly other lines of business) a good thing, and is it best that the largest players often get to set the direction in which things go? Is "follow the leader" a good policy?

To answer the "off the shelf" vs. creative problem solving question, I think that we have evolved into an "off the shelf" world in many areas outside of engineering for a variety of reasons. The main reasons that I have encountered professionally (in a manufacturing environment) for this trend are:
1) The need to comply with inter-company standards, such as ISO.
2) Equipment manufacturers have developed "appliance" type equipment that was specifically designed for certain tasks (whereas in the past, engineers and technicians often had no choice but to put together elaborate custom circuits or modify equipment because there were no products available to do the tasks that had to be done).
3) Corporate management and accounting consider the time of today's limited engineering staff too valuable to be spent solving problems that could be made moot by buying into a pre-packaged "solution."

I think that the main advantages of the "off the shelf" mentality are the three points listed above. Of course, there are disadvantages. The main one is that getting into the off-the-shelf mentality isolates one from what is really going on. One loses the intuitive feel for the operation of a system that one needs to be an effective problem solver. This is a bit hard to explain, and I think that to really understand the difference in mindset between the "old way" and "today's way", one has to talk to some younger engineers (who only know how to operate sophisticated "appliance" type instruments and computer software) and then talk to some seasoned engineers and technicians, who cut their teeth on much cruder equipment that put the user close to the physics of what was going on.

"Most of the consoles in Portland do not pass the lows."

This is flat false (no pun intended).

Most of the Portland stations have their audio act together. The "sound" of a station is up to the Program Director.

From right out of the Orban AM processing manuals: low frequency content eats up modulation. Since modulation = coverage in AM, the trade off is unavoidable. In the Orban 9200 AM processor, you can't defeat the 50 Hz high-pass filter. Dig out your HD Radio and listen to the low end on 1040 digital, though.

As an FM low-frequency example, when I worked for Rose City Radio, I replaced an Orban 8200 on 95.5 with an Omnia6. I had the high-pass filter (lets the higher frequencies pass, attenuates the lower frequencies) turned off until the first vinyl played and I could see the low-frequency drivers in the engineering room speakers move with the warp of the record. So I set the high-pass to 20 Hz. Less-expensive amps and speakers can't deal with bass you can only feel. Back in the day it would drive the Exciter in the transmitter crazy, making things worse (like seeing the warp on the FM station's frequency monitor: carrier whip).

Ripping CDs would be bad if your were data-reducing more than 8:1, but if we rip songs, the digital stays linear.

If I understand Robin's comments about the ripping of CDs correctly, he's saying that you can't just rip a CD and expect it to sound right on the air, especially with a tight format. The intro levels and leader time have to be managed consistently so the event establishes itself as soon as it starts. When we'd cart up music in the old days (of steam radio) we'd always ride gain on low level intros, as well as manage the overall levels which varied a lot from disc to disc, just as they vary now from CD to CD. Personally, I'd rather rip the CD and do all the necessary level manipulation with an audio editor program. You can be a lot more precise and consistent than when manually riding gain on the fly.

Robin is absolutely right about automated "ripping" of CDs not being appropriate for radio for the reasons cited in the above post. Even when generating sound files for my own use, I always open the files in a waveform editor and remove any silence at the beginning and end of the tracks.

Some ripping applicatons do a better job than others... thats why they are best avoided.

Some audio editor programs add "color" to the final product too, especially if you are using plug ins.

I recently found a user inputting new songs into the system using a pro tools hard limiter plug in to reduce the level rather than just adjusting the level down. needless to say this changed the entire dynamic flavor of the cut and added some ugly distortion.

Of course this is all subjective... I would rather put the song in the system pure and clean and let the stations processing fix a soft intro.

All ripping programs shouldn't be avoided merely because some of them are bad. Just the bad ones should be avoided.

If your audio editor program colors your audio you need another editing program. And if it's the plugins that cause unwanted coloring you need to replace the operator. Any useful tool can be screwed up in the wrong hands.

If a song with an intro at -23 rolls out of the end-of-message of a fading song at the -18 point of its fade, the new song is 5dB down the drain when it starts. Processing can't fix that. In the old days when jocks rolled everything manually they could take level variations into account on the fly. With automation the only way to let the processing fix low level intros is to run the format extremely loose. It doesn't work with formats that should be tight and maintain forward momentum. 105.9 proves it.

I've noticed that when I edit wav files in Cool Edit Pro, the saved audio is slightly colored. Has anyone else noticed this?

Radioxpert: depends on what you are doing and how you are saving the audio.

If you are just opening a file making a cut/paste and saving it as a .wav then you should not notice a coloration.

If you consider editing to be dynamic things like "normalize" or compression, etc, you will notice a change.

If you are saving as anything other than .wav then you will notice a difference. for instance if you are saving as .mp3.

The type of sound card you are using could cause a change when comparing to the original .wav file too... for instance if your sound card cost less than $150.

The only time I recall ever noticing unexpected changes to an edited .wav file in CoolEdit (and Audition) was when normalizing a file with the "DC bias adjust" box checked. In spectral view I could see that an extreme low frequency signal had been added, but I couldn't even come close to hearing it.

The low frequency "DC Bias" signal that you added most likely doesn't even make it to the soundcard output jack because the circuits in the soundcard are designed to block such DC offsets. This is a good thing because you don't want DC to reach your speakers or audio transformers (which could be in a variety of locations in a radio or recording studio).

The analog TV shut down in Hawaii has begun. The islands will be going all digital TV by January 15, 2009.

The longtime transmitting site on Mount Haleakala on Maui. At elevation of 10,023 feet, which is almost as high as Mt Hood. Is in the process of being dismantled. This site will no longer be used for television or radio.

For many years the scientific community has had to deal with analog RF interference. Due to the use of there sensitive equipment. It was felt the DTV RF would only make it worst.

One more last look before it all gone.

Webpage Link
http://www.well.com/user/dmsml/kkua/index.html

YouTube Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkjq-ntdOw

It kind of sucks that the 1954-vintage transmitter at KGMV-TV will be one of the casualties. That thing looks almost as if it were brand-new!

Awhile back I bought a '47 Chevy with the original am radio. After some dinking around and tube replacement, I got the radio working. Wow! The sound was great. Far superior to the AM side of the radio in my new Ford Ranger.

Cool! I'll bet that the old Chevy radio is a lot more sensitive than most contemporary radios, especially if they used a fairly long antenna.

And with Class A audio output, you don't need to use the heater to keep the cab warm.

The sweet sounds coming out of that old radio make even the vacuum wipers tolerable.

I was just pondering over something: We have several stations beaming in from Mt Hood. I wonder if anyone has considered coming the other direction, ie. the Coast Range. Coverage of the west side(away from the west hills)could be pretty decent! Any thoughts?

It's a little far to the south but Mount Hebo has FM & TV translators on it.

It would have to be something approaching full power. KTIL was originally supposed to run 100kw from Mt Hebo and I always wondered how that would come in.

Probably wouldnt play at all downtown.

KDUK has a pretty good signal on the west side of the west hills:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=FS171465.html

A transmitter on similar terrain, but further north might serve the West Portland Metro area fairly well, but downtown would be in a huge shadow, and probably require a translator.

I was thinking about something like the situation in Seattle where high power from the Olympic Peninsula puts a strong signal into large parts of the Seattle metro. Probably the best they could do would be Hillsboro and parts of Beaverton and down to Wilsonville but it's more than you can say for Mt Hood. I didn't say it was a good idea, just interesting.

DID kfi GET NEW TOWER YET? SAME HEIGTH AS THE ONE THE PLANE CRASHED INTO?

It appears that the second* new tower was finished in Aug:

http://www.k6rix.com/kfi.html

*the first new tower toppled during construction.

I think it's about a hundred feet shorter than the original one. Early reports indicate similar reception.

According to the article that I linked above, a 50 food diameter "capacity hat" was installed at the top of the tower to make up for the reduction of height. Do any other AM broadcast band towers use this trick?

Top loading is fairly common to make up the difference in electrical height. They used to sell car antennas with it.

True, true... CB and "ham" antennas as well, but I don't recall seeing an AM band broadcast tower with such a structure.

sre zdtV ready dTV's supposed to find and AUTIMATICLYswitch to the dtv transmission as soon as the analog transmission goes off?or is it OK if i have to manually re-tune to the digital?HOW ABOUT IF THE DIGITAL SIGNAL GOES AWAY SUDDENLY?MUST THE SET THE AUTOMATICLY FIND AND TUNE INTO THE ANALOG?that is what SIGNAL I hAD TO DO ON KATU'S RECENT TESTTHEY TURNED OFF THE ANALOG AND MY SCREEN WENT TO SNOWTHEN i RETUNED TO THE CH2 DTV SETTINGUSING THE REMOTE!.AM i READY FOR FEB '09 OR NOT??

Anyone else noticed that KPDX is now being advertised as "PDX TV," when they were advertised as "PDX 49?" I guess they're getting ready for the switch to OTA channel 30.

62kgw:

Okay, first off, I like to believe that the PDX Radio forums promote a drug-free posting environment...

I will attempt to answer what I believe is a question in your post...

If you receive your television via off-air antenna, you'll need to have a DTV converter box connected. When that box is connected, your on-screen display will reflect that you are watching channel 2-1 or 10-1 or 10-2. Some type of numbers like that, the first being the "channel" and the second number being the "sub-channel".

If you don't have an on-screen display showing channel numbers like that, then you don't have your DTV box connected properly and you aren't ready for the February 2009 cut-over.

At this point, you should give your 12 year old grandson (or granddaughter these days) $5 to connect the box properly and make sure you know how to use it.

680 KNBR's antenna is top-loaded

Thanks!... I just found it on the Fybush site:

http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-051021.html

It not only has a top hat, but is sectionalized as well! VERY interesting.

Answering the above question from "62" is like looking at a Rorschach ink blot. I think what his post meant to ask was: Are SDTVs that have a built-in DTV tuner designed to automatically cut over to a station's DTV channel when the NTSC signal goes away? Conversely, if the DTV signal is lost, will these TVs automatically cut over to the NTSC signal, if it is still available.

I understood 62's question perfectly. Unfortunately, that is all I understood. The rest of his post is jibberish and undecipherable.

Having said that, he asked if he was Feb09 ready or not. The answer is, there is no way to tell from what he said.

In general, if you have an OTA antenna connected to a converter box, you should be OK initially, IF you have properly scanned it. However, you will need to eventually re-scan the box when the upper VHF analog stations move their DTV signals back to their old VHF channel from the UHF channel that they are currently on. I don't know of any boxes that will automatically scan looking for a channel if it disappears.

New OPB Radio translator or maybe I've just forgotten an earlier post about it. I don't remember OPB Radio in Newport before but yet I see K295BJ 106.9 licensed to the city with its transmitter on Otter Crest. 40 watts just barely covers Newport.

Due to the Goodnoe Hills Wind Turbine Project just east of the The Dalles. A couple of broadcast translators will now have to find a new location.

>>getting ready for the switch to OTA channel 30

they are the worst recieved DTV station in Salem for me...hopefully this will improve signal in the area?

How does KPTV-DT look now? That's on 30 now.

And just for grins, how does KPXG-DT (channel 22.1 etc.) look at your house? It's on channel 4 from the Skyline tower.

Do we have any idea what's to become of the unused towers, 2 and presumably, 49? I'm guessing there are other users.

22.1 to 4 comes in mostly ok...break ups once in a while...don't know why things get intermittent...weather mostly effects? Might just need a better outdoor antenna or input gain amp on existing...not much of a techy here.

I think they removed 1/2 of the channel 4 transmitter to make way for the new channel 22 transmitter.

Since weather DOES affect channels 2-6, this is probably why they are going to 22.

See the KOPB-TV/KGW thread.

KQDL (88.1) The Dalles is on the air:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?list=0&facid=175508

KQDL, which repeats KBPS-FM, was turned on about 4:00 this afternoon. Classical music fans should enjoy the increased signal strength in the area.

KPXG's ATSC comes is fairly decent at my place...breaks up from time to time but generally it's a pretty decent signal, figure about 80-90% most days.

(Now at my parents' domicile, being as close as they are to the KKAD & KPAM sticks, it's a different story..... ;o)

Broadway put hands to keyboard and noted the following observations~
22.1 to 4 comes in mostly ok...break ups once in a while...don't know why things get intermittent...weather mostly effects? Might just need a better outdoor antenna or input gain amp on existing...not much of a techy here.

Could be a little bit of weather, could also be noise from something. If your reception of channel 4 is absolutely gone and your receiver outputs a composite RF signal to your TV's antenna plugin, try setting the receiver and TV to channel 3 instead. I had to do that with my Digitalstream and Pansat boxes......the receivers were literally self-jamming!!

Weird, I know, but it can make a huge difference.

(Of course, if your TV has a built-in ATSC tuner, this shouldn't be a problem.....)

This situation should likely get better next February, I'm sure. ;o)

Isn't KQDL visually similar to KODL?

You can't say I'm not right on top of things. I just noticed that the new, long awaited CBS master antenna appears to be in place. I thought I saw something earlier but it was either incomplete or had always been there. This is just within the last few days. Does anyone know what, if anything will go in place of the channel 6 antenna just below it?

Drove on Marine Drive the other day and noticed all the trees were down and cleared on the land adjacent to 1080 site on the east side.

It should be the west side.

The west side was already fairly clear. The east side had trees and overgrowth. That had been cleared away but not "plowed" or "cleared" away. Their roadway went along the brush/trees. Now it is in the middle of a "field". I need to go that way sorta tomorrow. I'll take another look.

What I meant was that the land where they are to build the new site is west of the current site so if any clearing is to be done then that's the best place for it. If anyone missed it, KTRO received a construction permit to move there but we're still waiting for KFXX.

I think the new site is EAST of the current KFXX sticks.

Yes, it is the east side that is being cleaned. In fact, today, they were finishing cleaning it up and leveling/smoothing it. At 2PM, that is. The west side has not been touched. In fact, it is filled and leveled with dirt and sand that was dredged and moved a few years back and it is at a height above the level of the ground on the 1080 property. I would say the "table" is about 4-5 feet or more above the level of the 1080 main property. I would think they would have to remove all that fill to bring it to the current level of their property. The land to the east side appears to be leveled to the same as the adjacent 1080 property.

Where they plan to move the towers, I don't know. Kent should know.

anything related to the Stonehenge prehistoricStone circle inEngland)with the Stonehenge tower here??

I've been wondering much the same thing: how did the Portland Stonehenge get its name?

Perhaps a clue here:

Stonehenge Towers, LLC


Rex Newkirk of ABC Tower Service has asked me for my impressions of recently
painting our 601 foot, self supporting, "Stonehenge" Tower" located in Portland
Oregon. Due to the construction of this massive structure, it presented challenges to the average tower painters, which they were unwilling to tackle. In addition, it is in the middle of a very affluent neighborhood, with very picky neighbors, who were afraid of overspray on to their houses and expensive automobiles.

Rex and his crew were very easy to deal with, and cooperated fully in keeping the neighbors happy. The project went smoothly, without dripping or overspray, and the neighbors had no complaints. As a matter of fact, they were very complimentary of ABC's work and conduct, and some even came to tell them "goodbye" when they were preparing to leave.

In all, we could not have asked for better service from ABC Tower Service. Their prices were reasonable, in fact, one bid was almost 100% higher than theirs. The work was excellent, and service superb. I recommend them highly.

If you would like to contact me regarding ABC Tower Service regarding their work or character, please feel free to call me at 425-653-5512.
Sincerely,

Ernie Hopseker: Principal Stonehenge Towers, LLC : October 2, 2000

From:
http://www.abctower.com/references.htm

So I would guess Ernie H. would know how the name was chosen.

It really is a pretty simple story. Lance Anderson and I were sitting around the office in Bellevue, Washington thinking that the "Ackerley Tower" name probably wasn't for us. We went through the Planet Of The Apes scenario, with the top of the mast perhaps sticking out of the muck, and people wondering what it had been. Then came Stonehenge, with the strange monuments that nobody knows why or how they happened. Since all our projects, (Bedrock, Thunderegg Wireless, Rock-It, etc.) all had names of rocks in them, we went for Stonehenge Tower, LLC.

Rex Newkirk has a tragic story after the paint job on Stonehenge. A few months later, I got a frantic call from Rex, saying "I'm killing my crew". I didn't know what he meant, but he revealed that his brother in law, who had been the lead guy on painting our tower had been killed in a gruesome tower accident in Minnesota. Then Kevin, the other lead painter, whose work is still at Stonehenge, on the barber pole traffic stops behind the building, had taken his life, believing he was responsible for the tragedy. I talked to Rex for a long time that night, convincing him that he wasn't even on site, and those two guys signed on full well knowing the dangers of the business. Rex is still out there painting towers.

Peace, and out.

Ernie Hopseker

I can't find anything anywhere about the proposed KFXX/KTRO site being west of the current one for KFXX. I have no idea where I got that. It is clearly, east of it! I'm sorry for the confusion.

KTIL's application to move to Government Camp as a Class C2 with 3.4Kw @ 513 meters HAAT on Mt Hood has been granted.

Yes, but will the signal be worth anything?

Another rim shot from the mountain TX site and another coastal move-in...and more move-in's on the way...don't ya just love radio!

Coming soon to a radio near you (assuming it is a sensitive radio and you are not buried in RFI):

1130
91.1
The all new 96.3

Speaking of 91.1, from my location in Hillsboro, a Yagi pointed south brings in KWAX. It will be interesting to see if 91.1 becomes another one of those frequencies where I can clearly discern two different stations, depending on which way I turn the antenna. Or, it might become a bunch of mud.

Another possibility... mud followed by clear reception as the HD kicks in. KWAX HD can be received in Hillsboro much of the time with a FM Yagi!

what about 97.9 KNRQ ?

There was another informal objection against KNRQ. You would think that after a construction permit has been granted on the heels of an informal objection that a request to modify the CP would not create another informal objection from the same party! They just have to wait it out.

Speaking of 91.1, from my location in Hillsboro, a Yagi pointed south brings in KWAX. It will be interesting to see if 91.1 becomes another one of those frequencies where I can clearly discern two different stations, depending on which way I turn the antenna.

Sounds like 100.7 when I lived in Newberg 10 years ago. If I pointed my antenna south or didn't point it at all, I heard K264AA (The Corvallis KBOO translator). If I pointed it in just the right southwest direction, I'd receive KPPT out of Lincoln County, which at the time was licensed to Toledo and was "100dot7 The Point."

That far south, you should have gotten Bend, at least in the valley.

Has anyone picked up 100.7 KMGX (Bend) in the valley? I found a spot in the hills of Eugene, where it can be heard.

From Hillsboro with an APS 9 (9 element FM log/Yagi) on a rotator, I can hear 3 stations on 100.7 depending on where the antenna is pointed:

North... Seattle (Country?... I thought they were Comedy/Talk)
SW... Lincoln City (Boss)
ESE... Bend (Mix)

Right now the Bend station is very weak, and fades out quite a bit... they are playing the Eagles "Hotel California"

I have logged the KBOO translator, but I don't hear it today.

North... Seattle (Country?... I thought they were Comedy/Talk)
Yes, Country. The talk format was dropped several years ago.

BTW, I was in Newberg, where I think Parrot Mountain would block most weaker Eastern signals. For a very short time I was also in McMinnville, which was much closer to the already mentioned KBOO translator and Lincoln County station.

The 100.7 KBOO translator has a CP to lower power and HAAT.

KXMG(almost sounds like a combination of a KXL station and the FM that KXL replaced)1150AM has been granted a construction permit for 5kw non-directional daytime and 9.8Kw nighttime from their current site. I believe this leaves KNRQ's CP modification for Class C2 as the only station in the application stage.

Looks like quite a downgrade for 1150!

In some ways, it is, in others, not so much: They will lose south coverage but extend farther east, west and north. I think they'll be more susceptible to overload from KEX.

Typo alert: that's 9.8 Watts non-directional nighttime power, not 9.8 kW. The non-directional nighttime signal will sound the same in Vancouver as their current signal does, but coverage of Portland at night will be lost. Compare these two maps: Existing nighttime contours vs. Construction Permit

You moved the decimal point. That's 0.0098kW or 9.8 watts nighttime.

Think 91.1 might end up SCAing a feed of Golden Hours?

(That would be nice, ya know........ ;o)

I'm terribly sorry! I read it right but printed it wrong. It's supposed to be 9.8 watts. Actually the construction permit reads a full 10 watts.

They are going non-dir on a day and night signal thus giving up the middle and north tower...sounds like some of the site is going to a real estate deal. 10 watts will cover most of Vancouver surprisingly...Can I re-tune my old CB radio to 1150?

They took away the center tower because they didn't need it for their new 10kw directional signal. Then, they removed the north tower to reposition it and the local government wouldn't let them! With time running out on the construction permit and only 1 tower still standing, they opted for 5kw non-directional. It's a good thing the Seattle station moved farther north a few years ago or they'd be lucky to get 2.5kw, let alone 5! I'm guessing they haven't given up on higher power and are working on something.

Semoochie - "local government wouldn't let them"

Not sure who your source is, but according to KXMG's contract engineer on the project (James Boyd), the city of Vancouver / Clark county has no issues with putting up a replacement tower for a 10kW array at that location. Bustos has decided to stop putting significant money into the operation and has given up on higher power.

Signs of the times...no dollars for upgrades. Think we'll see more of this nationwide as the economy flounders.

At this point, I'm not sure either but would say James Boyd is a very good source! If they DON'T have future plans to upgrade, it's a shame that they have devalued the station by removing the other towers.

1150's signal is going from bad to worse in Salem, which is unfortunate.

I apologize in advance if I offend anybody by making the comment that I believe the current 1150 format to be a "throwaway." This is a format that plays Evangelical Protestant-themed teaching and music to an audience that is overwhelmingly Catholic. Most, if not all, of the programming appears to be a simulcast of a station in California, as the various church events advertised on air are in that area.

I beg your pardon! I was thinking KNRQ was the only local station left in the application stage. I forgot about KFXX, which is being held up for reasons, unknown to myself.

I wonder if the downgrade of 1150 will have any impact on nighttime reception of CKNW?

> I wonder if the downgrade of 1150 will have any impact on nighttime reception of CKNW?

In which parts of town? Out here in Hillsboro, the 1150 nighttime signal is almost non-existent.

I assume you mean CKWX on 1130, rather than CKNW 980.

I can't imagine 48 watts creating significantly more interference than 10 watts, all else being equal, particularly to a second adjacency. I doubt if it even interferes at the transmitter site.

From the out of the blue department, here's an Item I had in my column in The Dalles Chronicle this week, tipped by a legal announcement placed in the paper by the proposed licensee:

Radio Maupin?: On Nov. 28, Maupin Broadcasting Company filed an application with the Federal Communications Commission seeking authority to construct a new Class C2 50,000 watt FM station at 96.7 mHz. The antenna would be located at 15 meters (roughly 50 feet) above ground level.
Harry Champlin is listed as the sole proprietor of Maupin Broadcasting Company.
According to a 2007 FCC filing, Champlin owns Chisolm Trail Broadcasting, based in Enid, Okla.
Chisolm Trail owns a pair of AM stations in Enid: which both feature a sports talk format: KCKC carries ESPN and the St. Louis Cardinals; KFXY has Fox Sports and the Kansas City Royals .
The company also owns KNID, an FM country station which carries the Oklahoma State Cowboys Mr. Champlin personally also owns Champlin Broadcasting, Inc. which owns KQOB FM, in North Enid which plays an adult contemporary variety mix known as the "Bob" format.
No information yet on proposed call letters or format.


Maupin's population, in the 2000 census was 411.

Application here

50kw at 15 meters? Why? Wouldn't it be cheaper in the long run to build a tower than pay the power bill?

Not only that, but at that radiation center, 50kW even with a .75 wave 5 bay, the ground level radiation will be right at the limit.
(several models I ran in FM Model exceeded 200uW) Any new service exceeding 5% of the 200uW limit will require a complete environmental study. Not to mention this is an existing tower which may have other contributors to the RF. They ignored all this in their statement about NIER, and did not specify a particular antenna. They can't get a CP without significant clarification of that issue. Think about it, the bottom bay of the antenna will be pretty darn low. If you Google Earth the coordinates you can see there are lots of trees and I wonder if this proposal puts the antenna above treeline or not.

I've seen some laughable applications but this one takes the cake. There is no hope this signal will propagate beyond Oak Springs if that far.

They also omitted a coverage map. The engineering parts of the application appears to have been done from a minimalist perspective (that's polite for lackluster and shoddy).

Some fluorescent bulbs might never fully turn off in the area!

Multipath problems? At least one transmitter on Mt Mansfield is said to have multipath distortion, due to it's low elevation above ground level:

http://www.fybush.com/site-020814.html

Photo taken by the crane operator on the Trump Tower construction in Chicago.

http://jimojimo.smugmug.com/gallery/5936452_DVKmB#369827341_8UV5Y-XL-LB

This is a fascinating web site if your into heights and construction of high rise buildings.
Noticed that there are 2 twin tower sites in Chicago?

Yep!

http://www.fybush.com/site-031218.html

I posted this on the other side in a thread called "I Want...." one of these, but I thought I'd add it here too in case some don't visit the "dark" side!

I do want one!

http://www.radioarcala.com/nbspStation/TowersandAntennas/Tower7/tabid/358/Defaul t.aspx

What a monstrosity! There are a few questions that I haven't been able to find the answers to on their website:

1) How much did this antenna (and the entire station) cost to build?
2) Who financed its construction?
3) Are the antennas Yagis or phased arrays? (The proportion of the elements suggest phased array.)
4) How much transmitter power do they use?

I'm thinking I'd finally get channel 8 with that thing.

It's on my Christmas list this December...

80,000 pounds, held up by guy wires?

3) Are the antennas Yagis or phased arrays? (The proportion of the elements suggest phased array.)

It's a yagi consisting of the 3L top beam for 160M and the lower 5L beam for 80M.

http://dx-hamspirit.com/2008/10/13/arcala-extremes/

An 80M phased array, e.g., would look like this.

A 252M phased array might look like this

at least it was designed for 252M, although since they goobered it up with another signal not much more than half that size, it may now be a dazed array, not a phased array

While FM Dxing about 7:30 or so this evening, I noticed that 89.5 KPFR was dead air... I just checked again and can hear a slight "hum" from the transmitter, and signal strength appears normal. I thought these stations were required to shut down the RF if modulation is absent for a certain length of time ?

This from All Access:

-------------------KRKO Wins Appeal In Tower Battle------------------

S-R BROADCASTING Sports KRKO-A (NORTHSOUND 1380)/EVERETT, WA has won its appeal of an OCTOBER decision by a hearing examiner that stopped its construction of two additional towers for the station and a new AM. The SNOHOMISH COUNTY COUNCIL voted 3-2 this week to overturn the examiner's decision, ruling that there is not enough evidence to support the examiner's argument that the towers could cause health problems.

KRKO built new towers for its 50,000 watts days/34,000 watts nights signal last SUMMER. Local environmental groups and residents have waged a battle to stop the towers from being built, but failed to stop the initial phase of the project.

>>89.5 KPFR was dead air

think it's been since the holiday bad weather...either no one is listening or something took out the dish and no $ to fix for now.

"think it's been since the holiday bad weather"

Wow! Nearly 2 months of dead air? Perhaps no legal ID ? Shouldn't they shut down the RF power and file a STA until it is fixed?

> Wow! Nearly 2 months of dead air?

Whoa!?! I thought it was bad when stations that don't have 24 hour broadcast schedules forget to turn off the transmitter for the few hours between sign-off and the next sign-on! I remember DJs doing the last shift of the day at WITR getting suspended from the station for forgetting to turn off the transmitter, for fear that this would get reported to the FCC.

The FCC guys that nailed KBMS should go visit KPFR to see what is (or isn't) going on there.

KFPR, should they changed their COL from Pine Grove to.....let say Boring, Government Camp, Mt. Hood Village, Sandy, Corbett Oregon. There's nothing in Pine Grove and plus Pine Grove is an unincorporated city.

"There's nothing in Pine Grove"

And right now they are still wasting 7KW of RF broadcasting nothing to nobody! I guess that fits.

If they are not going to modulate the carrier, I would hope that they would have the decency to turn it off! There *are* other stations on 89.5 (such as KTCB, Tillamook).

There are several issues on this thread that require some clarification. Before I start this, let me say that I'm not an Engineer, but I've tried to keep my ears open for some 42 years, so I believe I know enough to be dangerous, and I'm willing to share that dangerous stuff with you.

Someone said that they had measured poor audio from a Ward Beck board. There must have been something wrong with that particular board. I have built 3 complete stations with Ward Beck equipment and both the electronic and mechanical quality of their equipment was exceptional.

Robin Mitchell has mentioned audio quality of AM stations. I think this discussion has a lot to do with individual preference. Before there was digital equipment, there was a lot of variation in tube driven gear, and much of that had to do with build quality and maintenance. Major stations like WLS, CKLW, KGO, KFRC and others bought the good stuff and had a crew of Engineers who knew how to keep it within specs. There is a "warmer" sound from tube equipment than digital. And, processing had a lot to do with perceived quality on AM, not to mention the radios we were listening to.

The original Derrough Modulimiter, which was the second multi-band processor based on the BL-40, was an extremely "dirty" box that introduced a lot of distortion, but it did bring a loudness to AM that was previously not possible to attain. In Seattle at KING-AM we put in a new Harris MW-50 in 1974, and Harrison Klein developed a 6-band processor built out of off-the shelf stdio compressors from Inovonics including an 1172 for the top end and LA-3's set-up for forward limiting for the other bands. It took a half a rack of equipment, but it sounded better than whatever was used before.

The issue today on AM is what happens when you add digital. The analog part of the signal occupies the part of the band closes to the center frequency and is limited to 5 Khz. Then the digital part of the signal occupies the area from 5 Khz out to 15 Khz on either side. Reducing the analog signal to 5 Khz and processing it with a roll off at 100 Hz doesn't leave much, and the sound is really flat and colorless to my ear. Frankly I wish there was a drop-dead date for turning off analog radio like there is for TV. That would create an urgency for the public to buy new radios and accelerate the changeover process.

Another discussion on this thread has been about duplication....ripping...of CDs. All things being equal, ripping is no more than rapid copying of digital material....ones and zeros...and there should be no quality change from the source to the copy. If there is, then the ripper program has some settings that are changing the material, although I don't know how that is possible. The same is true with Adobe Audition programs, which are the successors to Cool Edit. If all settings are neutral, you should get out what you put in. If that isn't happening, I recommend you get out the book and find out how to restore the factory settings.

Processing of Broadcast audio on AM was designed to improve loudness and coverage. Processing on FM was designed to elminate or control "overshoot," which resulted in better control and more loudness. The basic idea of processing is to get the signal as loud as possible without destroying the natural quality of the sound. I'm not an Engineer, and there isn't space here to discuss all the nuances of audio processing. After many years it is really down to Orban and Omnia. What you like depends on personal preference. Their boxes will allow you to make your station sound as good or bad as your expertise and what you are able to hear will allow.

Someone mentioned that an old car radio from the late 40s sounded better than a new one. That is because the Delco people put a device in newer car radios that automatically reduces the frequency response of a receiver when you drive to an area where interference from an adjacent station could affect what you're listening to. This is primarily used by car radio manufacturers for AM, but also to a lesser extent on FM.

I will add one more thing about processing. In 1973 in Seattle we were having an on-going discussion about how to get the most out of our AM station, and we took the approach of buying 8 different popular radios being used by most of the audience to listen to radio at the time. A mixture of car, home and personal receivers. We hooked meters up to them and ran tones through our transmitter and processing in the middle of the night to see how they were affected, and what we could do to make our station sound as good as possible on all of them. Much was learned. Last year the SBE did the same thing to see how the hybrid digital broadcasting affected today's radios. It was fun to read their report. Not a lot has changed. The secret is simple. Make sure your station provides what the radios need at the frequencies where they provide the best sound. Those of us who fought the loudness wars of the 70s and 80s have a lot of experience with that.

which PDXstations put out REAL TUBE TONE??

More clarification:

The BL-40 Modulimiter was made by UREI.

Dorrough made the Discriminate Audio Processor, better know as a "DAP" 310 and then the 610.

For AM HD, you can roll off the audio at 5 kHz in stead of 8, but you only have to do that to increase the amount of data you transmit, with no difference in the digital audio. You do not have to roll the bottom end off at 100 Hz.

It's not just Orban and Omnia. Vorsis is run by former Omnia engineer Jeff Keith, creator of the original Stereo Modulation Optimizer or "SMO." See http://www.vorsis.com/ .

Finally, NPR did the interference study on radios, not the SBE.

Thanks for the clarification. As I re-read what I wrote, I should also correct the equipment used by Harrision at KING. The upper frequencies were put through a UREI 1176. As I say, I'm not up to speed on some of this stuff, and time tends to dull my mind.

We haven't tried a Vorsis, but we have tried boxes from Orban and Omnia, and quite a number of years ago when it was still independent, we had some CRL stuff. It remains an area of taste. On our BE 1 KW on a single tower I prefer the Orban, as I think there is less fatigue in the processing and it is easier to listen to for a longer time. We are not doing HD yet, and we're using discrete STLs. I'm sure there are others who will like the Omnia.

Vorsis is a division of Wheatstone who, as far as I'm concerned, make the best mixing consoles available right now. Again, a personal choice.

KLTH and KUFO have applied to move to the new CBS master antenna at 502 meters above average terrain, each with 100kw. I'm thinking it's possible that the applications came in just as the Daily Digest was putting out the next issue and missed applications for KUPL and KXJM or maybe not. We should hear something from the others soon. KINK already has a construction permit for the new site.

"Dead air" station files STA with FCC:

"KPFR IS SILENT DUE TO SEVERE WEATHER CONDITONS CONSITING OF SNOW, ICE AND WIND. THE TRANSMITTER SITE IS LOCATED ON MT. HOOD AND ACCESS TO THE SITE IS NOT AVAILABLE AS THE U.S. FOREST SERVICE CLOSED THE ROAD TO ALL TRAFFIC DUE TO POSSIBLE AVALANCHES. IT IS UNCLEAR TO THE LICENSEE THE SPECIFIC CAUSE OF THE TRANSMITTER OUTAGE BECASUE NO ONE HAS ACCESS TO THE SITE BUT THE STATION IS OFF THE AIR. THERE HAVE BEEN REPORTS OF WINDS IN EXCESS OF 135 MILES PER HOUR AND HEAVY EQUIPMENT IS REQUIRED TO REACH THE TRANSMITTER SITE. DUE TO THE SEVERE WEATHER CONDITIONS, NO PERSONNEL HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ACCESS THIS SITE NOR IS THERE AN ESTIMATE AS TO WHEN ACCESS MIGHT BE AVAILABLE. ACCORDINGLY, THE STATION REQUESTS AUTHORITY TO BE SILENT FOR A PERIOD OF 120 DAYS TO ACCESS THE SITE AND REBUILD THE TRANSMITTER."

From:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?contex t=25&appn=101292317&formid=910&fac_num=85834

I thought "silent" meant "off the air" can it also mean "transmitting dead air"?

I believe that it's the stations responsibility to have means to transmit legally at all times and when they are unable to under remote control they must turn off the carrier. This would include station identification.

In FCC terms, silent does mean off the air. In the link you posted the STA application does specifically state that "the station is off the air", although that is not true. Do they not realize that the FCC has a field office in Vancouver? And, could they spell check before filing a legal document with the federal government, becasue (sic) it would at least make it look like they give a sh**.

Actually, they may have consulted with the FCC and been told to write up their request in the way it was. These forms don't get instantly posted on the net without going through FCC staff.

Clearly, if you do not have access to your transmitter site, there is nothing you can do. My question: How is it that they have power up there anyway? How do they handle remote control commands? Were they feeding audio only by microwave? telco? Was the microwave duplex, sending telemetry back to the control point? Being so isolated, did they have no back up plan for commands/telemetry?

Aren't these remote transmitters usually set up to drop carrier if audio is lost for a pre-determined period of time?

My spin...TX control is a dial-up that has lost connection to telco but site did not loose power and the weather took out the satellite dish and with no access...just the carrier man.

> How is it that they have power up there anyway?

I wondered the same thing myself. Is the transmitter site just for KFPR or is it shared with other facilities? I assume that they considered the option of having the power company shut off the electric service to the site, but that was not feasible.

I think 88.7 KLVP and 90.3 KZRI also transmit from the same site...They both appear to be operating normally.

FCC has indicated in several rulings that a carrier w/out programming is "silent" and with an STA no ID is required. This speculation is nuts. Maybe they do have control. I'd want to keep it on so everything stays warm and dry. Shut the power off and things get wet and freeze.

The rule is that you must have at least two unrelated methods of controlling your transmitter. If you lose control, your transmitter must have a provision to shut itself off. Usually in remote set-ups one of the remote controls operates on the STL subcarrier so if that signal is lost, the transmitter shuts down. The other control device could be a land-line remote control like a single or double ended Burke, which could also be accessed by cell phone. There are some industrial cell phone wall mounted units that have a back-up battery that will last for some time....like a week...if not accessed continually. In this case it sounds like they power at the site but have disabled the automatic transmitter shut off, which is illegal under FCC law, snow or no snow....ice or no ice. They should hope the FCC doesn't do a quick check to see if they're on or off.

"The rule is that you must have at least two unrelated methods of controlling your transmitter. If you lose control, your transmitter must have a provision to shut itself off."

Manual, within two hours (used to be a half hour, I think).
This means if you can drive there within the allotted time frame that counts as one method.

This is a special circumstance where they can not use either method, assuming one was electrical/mechanical and or electronic/wireless and the other is manual.

Also remember who the licensee is and their documented disdain for the FCC. It's no secret.

>>documented disdain for the FCC

Andy, are you speaking of Family Radio and/or other (massive use) satellator facilities/organiztions and do you have any web site links that document?...just interested.

Salem OR low power TV station K21GX will move to digital channel 4.

This is not good news for those who want to "lower" the FM dial with more non-comms and LPFM's.
It's only an application.

It's a displacement application. They said something about not being able to flash cut on channel 21 because of channel 22. I don't understand that at all. You'd think there'd be less interference with digital than analog.

1st adjacent is an RF issue, not a modulation type consideration.

I don't know where the transmitter is on Mt. Hood but Telco use to (still does?) have a microwave repeater up there and would use the snow cats at Timberline to get to it. Are the transmitters/repeaters at that same location? If I remember right, it was west of the lodge and just off the normal ski runs, at the time in the 60's. I saw the site while skiing there in the late 70's but don't remember exactly where it is now or even if it is still there. Telco did not have snowmobiles or tractors. They were driven there by Timberline people. At least that is the way it was in 65-67 when I worked in Telco Toll.

The pre-sunset date shutoffs of KATU, KOIN, and the translator on channel 5 are going to make for some interesting DX. This Salem application suggests to me that the VHF low channels aren't going to go away, after all. Perhaps someday, KATU-DT and KOIN-DT will return to channels 2 and 6, respectively?

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong: as I understand it, the Longley-Rice models used to predict DTV coverage assume a receiver with a very low noise figure and no man-made interference. This is why some of the power levels of the VHF DTV stations are so low. With contemporary tuner designs, the low noise figure assumption is reasonable. However, I am skeptical that the no man-made interference assumption is that reasonable. Some of the digital devices, such as PCs, that are common in residential settings today can spew a lot of hash on VHF and, to a lesser extent, UHF. Might we see a lot of VHF DTV stations (and possibly some UHF stations) applying for power increases within the next few years, after they find that some of their viewers have trouble picking them up?

"Perhaps someday, KATU-DT and KOIN-DT will return to channels 2 and 6, respectively? "

The reception of DTV on low VHF is in need of improvement
because of the current low power authorized and the problems of VSWR and noise in receiving systems, which you touched on.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/11506

The authorized DTV power may be increased to solve this, and this won't happen until the FCC reviews DTV reception post analog shut-off.

KPFR modulation has been restored (about 3:20).

As near as I can tell from the FCC's TV Query, here is what the full-power stations are doing.

KATU and KOIN are not going to do Digital TV (DT) on their low-band VHF channels, but 8, 10, and 12 are. Note that KPDX goes from 49 to 48 to 30, the current KPTV DT.

Call CH CH Power CH Power
KATU 2 43 1000 kW
KOIN 6 40 1000 kW
KGW 8 46 1000 kW 8 45 kW
KOPB 10 27 753 kW 10 32.4 kW
KPTV 12 30 741 kW 12 24.5 kW
KPXG 22 22 745 kW
KNMT 24 45 1000 kW
KRCW 32 33 1000 kW
KPDX 49 48 1000 kW 30 1000 kW

As my radio engineering prof used to say, "Up jumped the devil!" KZEL has applied to increase height of their 100kw facility to 452 meters HAAT, thereby maintaining their Class C status and effectively wiping out nondirectional use of 96.3 in this area.

Maintaining Facility Integrity

As analog TV transmitters are turned off, Might we see a rash of FM's getting better tower locations, or is this move unrelated to analog TV shutdown?

Did anyone else see the ad in Inside Radio for the last few days:

FOR SALE Newly Created C-2 In Portland Oregon Metro.

KFXX's application to move slightly east has been granted. They will diplex with 910AM, which already has a construction permit.

"FOR SALE Newly Created C-2 In Portland Oregon Metro."

That could be the move-in from Warm Springs.

> KFXX's application to move slightly east has been granted.

This is different to what I thought had been previously proposed: moving the 910 transmitter to the 1080 site. Will 910 keep the same patterns? What about 1080?

Thought for Hal Widsten; in your post of Jan. 29 you said,

"Frankly I wish there was a drop-dead date for turning off analog radio like there is for TV. That would create an urgency for the public to buy new radios and accelerate the changeover process. "

My sense is that HD radio may never take off. The public's found the internet, iPod's, etc. and Rich Johnson posted on this board about driving around in Washington D.C. listening to out-of-market station audio streams on his Blackberry. Is HD radio going to turn out like FM Quad and AM Stereo?

Alfredo,
Reread Semoochies post. It states what you thought.
KFXX is moving slightly east...the land has already been cleared as noted here several months ago. 910 is moving more than slightly northeast.

The newly created C2 would be 94.3 on the east side of the metro.

The new 96.3 is only a C3.

Wow...I had to go way up this long thread to find the following:

> KTRO 910 and KFXX 1080 plan to diplex on a new tower array to be built just west of the current
> KFXX site.

Radio-Locator has the patterns from the construction permit for the new array. Here are links to all the patterns, for comparison:

910-Day License
910-Day Construction Permit
910-Night License
910-Night Construction Permit

1080-Day License
1080-Day Construction Permit
1080-Night License
1080-Night Construction Permit

The "newly created C2" could also be 97.9, currently KNRQ. It is not 96.3 because that's a Class C3 and in light of KZEL's latest application, I don't see that changing. Saying that the new array would be "west" of the 1080 site was a "misthink"(new word)on my part. It is definitely east! Now that there are construction permits for both 910 and 1080, we'll just have to wait and see if they build out the facilities as stated or modify for more power/towers.

KQSO-LP Newberg (Western Oregon Radio Club, Inc.) appears to be on the air on 102.9:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?list=0&facid=135128

Just heard an interesting discussion of radio propagation effects. Fairly decent signal in Hillsboro.

Great radio for fellow radio geeks !

I have been hearing oldies, surf music, and a KQSO ID on 102.9. The signal is easily receivable on a rooftop antenna, but too weak for Walkman radios and some portables.

I am skeptical that the effective radiated power is only one watt.

Also noted: the NTSC broadcasts on channels 5 and 6 are off the air. Is tower work going on?

Sylvan NCE stations appear to be at reduced power as well. KBPS HD is off (good day to DX KLCC HD !)... I suspect that they are working on the new CBS master antenna, or repairing storm damage.

Does anybody know anyone involved with KQSO-LP?

I've tried emailing the Western Oregon Radio Club probably about 5 or 6 times over the last year to find out how to get involved with this project without a single reply... :-(

KXMG 1150AM has filed for Licence to Cover. I'm thinking that means they're on the air at 5kw ND.

"KXMG 1150AM has filed for Licence to Cover. I'm thinking that means they're on the air at 5kw ND."

Filing a 302 indicates you have put your C.P. (or changes thereto) on the air. You can't file one if you haven't completed the work.

"Western Oregon Radio Club"

An amateur radio group with a network of repeaters (mostly 2m) around the state.
http://www.qsl.net/worc/
I recognize the name on the FCC filings. I've seen it before on local filings, but don't know him.

Later on today, I noted that on the car radio, reception of KQSO-LP is spotty, often getting wiped out by the much stronger 102.7. At home, with a rooftop antenna, reception is solid.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I know lots about WORC, especially since I'm a ham too :-)

The website is where I got the contact information for the group. I even tried the email address on the application.

Can I have 103.3 move to 103.5 and 104.1 move to 104.3 so we can move 102.7 KYTE-FM to the PDX area.

Hi All,

RE: KQSO-LP

We're (the Western Oregon Radio Club - WORC) running 1 watt CP ERP out of a Shivley antenna from Chehalem. Our main club website is down. So, that may explain why emails are not being returned. Sorry about that. Feel free to contact me if you like for more questions:

radio.engineer@comcast.net

You may also have heard KQRZ on the air at 101.5 in Hillsboro on a temp tower. They are located at the Heritage Christian School near River Road. We both received STA's from the FCC for operating on a second adjacency...it's been a long and painful process taking years for this.

WORC is trying to get moving on promoting kids and people into the Amateur Radio hobby. 1 watt isn’t much, but, it's a start. We're looking for STL equipment and other equipment if anyone has leads let me know! Thanks...73's

Ken

KA7OSM

Welcome to the board ! and thanks for the tip about KQRZ. I am hearing an episode of "Boston Blackie" right now!

I believe I have answered your question before. If K103 were to move to 103.5, assuming KXPC is no longer there, they would be first adjacent to 103.7 in Tacoma, which is also a full Class C. It seems highly unlikely that the latter would volunteer to lower their Class(including protection)and if they didn't, K103 would have to do so and I don't think that's any more likely to happen. Andy, thanks for clearing that up. I never can remember which facilities dictate getting on the air before or after applying for "license to cover".

I was up at Council Crest Saturday and noticed they seem to be building a new/replacement tower right next to the existing one there. Any info on that? Apologies if I've missed it in the thread...

Do you mean next to the old channel 27 tower in the park?

I will definitely be listening for the new 101.5 when I return to Hillsboro in a few days. After hearing what the KQSO signal sounded like on the car radio, I could believe that it was only one watt; I can get a fairly stable signal from the 97.7 translator while driving around town. I was, nonetheless, impressed at how good it sounded on the home hi-fi tuner.

Hi Alfredo: You must have a clear shot from your location in Hillsboro to the KQSO Tx site. The Tx site does look down into some areas there. Terrain is a bit dicey on the west side of PDX metro. Most of your area gets hammered with a strong adjacent signal from 102.7 K274AR (Educational Media, 10 watt ERP) blasting QSO from the west hills. Ken

I certainly do: I can receive both 92.7 and 97.7 on a Walkman radio with just a small amount of hiss, if I position the headphone cord carefully.

By the way, when I go to the FCC's FM Query page, why do I see applications for 96.3 MHz for both KQSO and KQRZ? Are both stations expected to move their antennas a bit higher, or am I misreading the FCC query information?

This is a long 8 year story if you can believe this. Quick summary: KQSO and KQRZ were mutually exclusive applicants at 96.3 MHz LPFM. KWLZ applied to change the city of license of their station from Warm Springs to Portland (West Linn) at 96.3. Full powers bump LP's. We found new second adjacent channels to use (all other 3rd's were taken up by translators, etc, etc). So, that is how we ended up on 101.5 and 102.9. The FCC gave us STA's until they figure out that 2nd adjacent channels are really ok to use and enact it to law (I think Congress will have to vote on this one).

KXJM has applied to move to the new CBS antenna with 71kw maximum @ 501.6 meters above average terrain. KUPL has applied for 25kw maximum from the same location.

"Do you mean next to the old channel 27 tower in the park?"

Yep, that one.

There's the legs of a new freestanding tower already erected just next to it.

Council Crest Tower Replacement

I heard a few years ago that the city was planning on replacing a tower up there for the public service trunking system, etc. Maybe they are finally doing that?

WOW, this is historic! They're going to tear down the World's first UHF-TV tower!

On August 25, 1952 ground was broken on Council Crest for Oregon's first television station KPTV channel 27.

Not quite... There was the Bridgeport test before the transmitter was shipped to Portland:

http://niche2.com/nostalgia/kc2xak-of-bridgeport-the-first-uhf-television-statio n-1940/

OK, the World's first "commercial" UHF-TV tower.

The project Powerpoint presentation says it was built in 1953-1954 as an AM Radio tower. It was in that period that I went up there with my dad's ham radio club for a tour and they were doing TV broadcasting from that building. (KPTV)

Could there have been an earlier KPTV tower? My information came from "Behind The Mike - Portland TV Hits Milestone" published on August 25, 1977. In the article it mentions "the 210-foot tower and the 41-foot antenna was lifted to the top of it by Sept. 11."

WAIT JUST A MINUTE! There was an earlier tower! I just looked at information I copied from the 1953 "Telecasting Yearbook" and the tower was listed as 251 feet. In the 1954 Yearbook edition the tower grows to 535 feet. Visual power also increased from 18kw to 204kw and in the 1955 edition 646kw.

It looks as if RCA shipped the entire station (tower included) from the Bridgeport experiment... It was 210 ft tall.

http://www.answers.com/topic/kc2xak

They must have re-designed the antenna for higher gain (and the frequency shift from ch 24 to ch 27).

This is getting to be an interesting detective story!

Is the tower shown on the KC2XAK Webpage mentioned above the actual tower or a generic shot? That tower looks like a Blaw-Knox 4-sided Diamond.

The KPTV nostalgia Website has a page from the 1950's here. If the photo* shows the actual KPTV original being built, it is a self-supporting 3-sided tower (the same as the current one), not a Blaw-Knox Diamond. Perhaps the year "1952" with the photo is incorrect.

*Edit add: There's something I noticed in the KPTV photo. If you look closely at the very top just to the right of the tower leg, is that another tower nearby? The old KC2XAK Diamond?

Perhaps... I wish we could find some pictures with better detail!

When I look closely at the Blaw-Knox tower in the first Bridgeport link, I think that I can see some sort of antenna structure at the top, which leads me to believe that it is indeed the test tower, and not just a generic shot.

Very possible, JR!

As late as the 70's you could still see a few very old UHF antennas on rooftops all over Portland that were put up way back when. We were geeks enough to keep a lookout for them.

Kq4: And to think, without Jimbo's post we might never have known this!

There has to be an actual picture of the tower in The Oregonian or Journal. They both did extensive coverage for weeks and even months before the launch. I remember seeing many pictures during KPTV testing and launch. I'll bet it's there.

A friend just sent me a scan of a picture of the Bridgeport site from April 1950 Electronics . It is NOT the same tower that was shown in the first Bridgeport link that I posted above... It is a 4 sided free standing tower that looks somewhat similar to the old Ch 27 tower that we know and love, EXCEPT for the extra side and it is not uniform taper (it sharply necks down partway up). It is shown next to a much smaller white house, rather than the 2 story building in my link.

There weren't too many old TV antennae left after the Columbus Day Storm.

And the saga continues...

Could someone explain to me if KNRQ 97.9 wants to upgrade to Class C-2 from Class A in Tualatin. What stations needs to move from what frequency.

KNRQ applied to modify its construction permit for Class C2 operation. In order for this to occur, they must reimburse KACI-FM The Dalles and KHAL Condon to move frequencies. There is however the matter of an unsettled rulemaking procedure which, if it goes through, would authorize KACI, not KNRQ to move to Tualatin as a Class C2.

Very interesting... this is really good stuff on the channel 27 old tower.

Ignore the eyesore on the left!

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1429/810984652_3fcd578ada.jpg

Nice! Excellent picture!

Did you take it?

This SFO landmark has been in place since 1972.

I swiped the picture from Oregon Media Insiders, here:

http://www.oregonmediainsiders.com/node/1827#comments

I first saw the thing when I was going to USF for the summer.

I've never been to the Sutro tower, but I've been on the hills near it.

It makes the KGON tower (which is cool too!) look like a tinker toy!

It's a monster!

>>It's a monster!

Got me going...great site!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutro_Tower
http://www.sutrotower.com/
http://www.sutrotower.org/
http://www.fybush.com/site-010606.html

which portland radio stations deliver "real vintage tube sound "to the listeners???

Who shoulda had their tubes tied?

> which portland radio stations deliver "real vintage tube sound

I wouldn't be too surprised if KLYC and KBMS were still using tube transmitters. Circa 2001, KMHD was using a tube transmitter. Some of the higher-powered FM stations may still be using tube transmitters for their analog signals (can somebody verify this?).

KMHD on the new (2006) NCE antenna is solid state.

Takes more than an RF tube output to create that sound, anyway.

To truly reproduce the sound of the old days you need a tube amp console, and a completely tube audio section in the transmitter. Not just a tube RF section. In fact, you would probably need to have high audio power output tubes feeding a modulating transformer. Transmitters switched to exciter level modulation decades ago.
Nobody does that anymore. Not for years.

> Takes more than an RF tube output to create that sound, anyway.

You had to destroy the fantasy, didn't you.

Years ago, I remember somebody who wanted a "tube sound" asking, on one of the hi-fi newsgroups, about recommendations on a tube FM tuner to complete his system. I thought that this was a bit goofy because any station that guy could tune in on his tube tuner is guaranteed to have solid state circuitry throughout the signal path, all the way until after the RF has been created in the exciter. I wonder whether that guy realized that in FM, it doesn't matter whether the RF power amplifiers are tube or solid state, as far as the sound is concerned.

I like tubes solely for the "vintage" factor. I can and do accept that in most applications, solid state devices have surpassed tubes in almost every critical parameter. The only consumer application where tubes are still the undisputed champs is the microwave oven.

Yes I believe KLYC still uses a tube transmitter. I snapped this photo with my brownie camera for a vintage quality look when I visited last:

http://www.bayarearadio.org/schneider/images/radio045.jpg

"The only consumer application where tubes are still the undisputed champs is the microwave oven."

Technically, they're considered klystrons which are a vacuum device but not really a tube, per se.

Pro guitar amps still employ tubes. The new digital modeling guitar amps supposedly can mimic all the classic tube amps and these new modeling amps may have a tube preamp but many have solid state output stages. Serious pros still stand by fully tubed amps. I've got a Fender Blues Jr. which is a single 12" speaker with 18W output and it's almost as loud as my Fender Princeton Chorus which has two 10" speakers and 50W solid state output. The Blues Jr. sounds like a tube amp because it is one. The Princeton tries to sound that way, but frankly it's not.
The Jr. is fun because it's small and relatively light, so it's convenient to carry around. I use it most of the time unless I have to compete with Fender Showmans and Fender Deluxes which drown out the Blues Jr. My Gibson L.P. sounds really sweet through the Blues Jr. (doesn't sound too shabby through the Princeton, either). If I had the dough, my next guitar amp would be a Marshall, but they are soooooo expensive.

LOL at Craig Adams.

Craig -

STOP THAT!!

(I think I have a chair just like that in my garage buried under boxes...)

"I first saw the thing when I was going to USF for the summer"
University of South Florida in Tampa?

That would be quite a feat to see Mt.Sutro from there.

Speaking of KLYC, they use two towers and the top light on their north tower has been out for at least a month. I've called and left a message, but nothing happens. If I were a pilot, I might be pissed-off enough to drop a dime to the FCC.. any other ideas?

The FCC? I think you mean the FAA.

As long as one top lamp in an array is illuminated, it's not considered urgent by the FAA, although it is required to notify them. I think you have three months after which another phone call to the FAA will get you another 3 months.

That would be quite a feat to see Mt.Sutro from there.

I've actually been in Tampa a few times, but each time I was there it was too foggy in SF to see Mt. Sutro.

One bulb out in a the dual-bulb top beacon is concidered a major problem with the FAA. It's the same to them as all lights out on a tower.
Also, if the flashing beacon is stuck on or isn't flashing at the right rate, the FAA says that's a failure that must be reported.

On the other hand, they dont care too much about the little steady burning bulbs between the beacons.

KTIL's west tower has a burned out top bulb.

the guitar catalog I got in the mail made a big deal about VOX Amps hVING VINTAGE LOOK AND "REAL TUBE SOUND"!!!!!WHAT HAPPENS IN RECORDING STUDIOS AND LIVEPERFORMANCE STAGES??

Music is recorded in recording studios and performed on live stages.

If you are looking in recording studios and on performance stages, you are looking in the wrong place. You need to go to VOX's marketing department to find out what kind of smoke they're blowing.

Hint: One of the marketing managers says, "Guitar players love stuff with a vintage look & feel. Our ad copy must boast that our amps have a 'tube sound' because people will pay a lot for that."

it actually said:REAL TUBE TONE"!!!ON THE ADD I GOT??!!DO NEWER SOLID STATE GUITAR AMPS CLAIM rEAL OP-AMP/TRUE-TRANSISTOR TONE"??

> DO NEWER SOLID STATE GUITAR AMPS CLAIM rEAL OP-AMP/TRUE-TRANSISTOR TONE"??

Of course they don't. The reason that they don't is that the ad copy isn't written by engineers; it's written by marketing guys.

If you know the airport nearest the transmitter site, you can go to https://www.notams.faa.gov/dinsQueryWeb/ , put in the 4-letter airport name, and see the outage report(s). Portland is KPDX, and Troutdale is KTTD.

The FAA gives you 2 weeks, then you need to renew the outage report.

They do like to know about ALL top beacon outages.


With AM transmitters, there's tube and then there's switching tube. 910's main transmitter has two tubes, but it's Pulse Duration Modulation where the modulator is really switching the RF tube at a rate that creates the modulation.

910's 60's-vingage backup transmitter really is all tube, but there is nothing all-tube in the audio chain left to drive it.

There's a tube CD player at http://www.soundscapeav.com/musichall/shanling.htm

Thanks Kent!

re tube CD player: What will they think of next?

How about a car stereo?

http://www.uncrate.com/men/gear/car-audio-video/panasonic-cqtx5500d-vacuum-tube- car-stereo/

I once hard that "locktal" tube were better, and never wore out!theier type numbers usually started with a 7!!??

I once hard that "locktal" tube were better, and never wore out!theier type numbers usually started with a 7!!??

The "loctal" was just the pin type on the base of the tube.

They had solid pins rather than hollow pins that the wire from the tube itself was soldered into.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_socket

If I can find them, I've got a whole box of them that I'm going to take to the hamfest next weekend in Puyallup!

I'm eager to see the locktal tubes at this weekend's HAMfest. According to something I read years ago, locktal sockets were developed to prevent tubes from shaking out of their sockets in high vibration environments (i.e. radios used in cars, trucks, and aircraft).

I think theylocktal tubes were designed during WW2 for military applications by rca?then some were used in car radios!!??

I have been around tubes for a long long time. Those were the first things I used and designed with. When I started college in Electrical Engineering, vacuum tubes and their theory is what was taught, primarily. Transistors and diodes was later in the senior courses.

Having said that, I have never heard of loctal tubes and have no idea what you are talking about. Never came up in my radar endorsement on my 1st phone ticket nor my microwave stuff.

Don't recall it in my DC Power Transmission classes, either.
Perhaps I slept through those sessions.

Did you mean "octode". That was a type of tube. I remember that one.

Loctal tubes were developed by Sylvania for rough-duty applications. These glass tubes had a metal base and a center pin that had a groove around it that locked into the socket. They were prone to pin oxidation and sometimes were very difficult to remove without breakage. I still may have a few up in the attic!

maybe it was a "locking octal" tube?

"In May 1939, both Raytheon and Sylvania announced a range of lock-in tubes totaling twelve types."

"Sylvania's total reached 100 by 1954, after which time no new types were produced."

From Stokes "70 Years of Radio Tubes and Valves".

Part of the driving force behind this development was linked to a dispute between Philco and RCA, with Philco refusing to use the octal METAL tubes that RCA developed around 1936. Many Loktal tubes that can be found today are branded "Philco" but were manufactured by Sylvania. "Loktal" was a Sylvania-Philco trademark, other tube makers used "Loctal" or "Lock-in" for these types.

I see. Thanks for the educational update. My textbooks are newer than those tubes.

I knew about octal sockets. I have some of those out in the garage next to the spare tubes for my 1967 Heathkit. I think I acquired all those tubes in about 1969. Haven't used them. When I get the trailer back, I'm gonna load up that console Heathkit GR295 and take it to the e-recycler while it is free.

locktal=locking octal,i think?I might look in old catalog to see how their prices compared to the similar octal types??or to 7 or 9 pin minatures??

Is the Heathkit functional? Perhaps somebody on this board would be willing to take it off your hands. I am really tempted to do so.

Yes, it is kinda funtional. I haven't turned it on in years but it worked the last time it was on. Maybe a weak picture tube. Plus lots of spare tubes. It is in the Mediterranean Oak console cabinet.

Since there's a station here on the same frequency, I thought I'd mention that the 1550 near Bellingham has applied for 50kw day and night.

ther is a surplus store in SE south of Foster called r5d3 which has lots of tubes for sale mstly used.well organized the guy there told me he sells like 30 thousand tube a year!??good as gold??

I pulled up the following when I searched for R5-D3:

http://www.bluefeathertech.com/technoid/r5d3.html

I will have to stop in there someday. If nothing else, this will be like a museum trip. It will give me the happy feeling, like I get at HAMfests sometimes, when I am standing amidst tables of equipment thinking "No VHDL, Verilog, or other hardware description languages were used to create these products."

was cfun previously ckvn??

CFUN was indeed CKVN in a previous incarnation

...and the other way around!

Another casualty of the December ice storm was the K7RPT repeater on 147.04 MHz. According to a club announcement I received, the repeater will be off the air today, while its damaged antenna is replaced.

This from All Access:

--------------------Broadcast Electronics Turns 50--------------------

BROADCAST ELECTRONICS is inviting broadcasters to share in the celebration of its 50-year anniversary as the industry's largest radio-only equipment manufacturer with opportunities to qualify for a free STX LP solid-state, low-power FM transmitter or AUDIOVAULT FLEX studio automation software.

Broadcasters are invited to enter BE's "Oldest Operating BE Transmitter" contest to qualify for a free transmitter. The oldest operating BE transmitter will qualify broadcasters for a chance to win BE's newest FM solid-state transmitter, the STX LP 1kW. BE is looking for the oldest surviving BE transmitter currently in operation, either operating in standby or as the main transmitter. Qualified candidates can review contest details and submit their applications online at http://www.bdcast.com/contest through JUNE 1st.

Employees and customers who have shared in the journey of this 50-year-old industry icon will get a chance to celebrate BE's half-century mark at the NAB2009 convention in APRIL, as well as at the company's manufacturing plant in QUINCY, IL on JUNE 18th, the official anniversary date of BE's incorporation.

Quincy? Is BE part of Harris?

I know Harris has (or had) a big plant in Quincy.

Quincy is a cool little town!

Bill, I became curious about your question on the relationship between BE and Harris and found this article about Larry Cervon. Very interesting history in the piece.

While Harris was rushing to hold on to the transmitter market by building advanced transmitters lead by the bean counters (call them cheap and under engineered) and using expensive proprietary parts that could only be bought from Harris, BE took the time to do some good solid engineering and testing.

BE builds great equipment and supports it well. Our BE AM 1A....1Kw AM transmitter is an excellent example. It has been 100% reliable, sounds great and is about the size of a big picnic cooler. UPS delivered it to the station, we took it to the transmitter site in the trunk of my car, hooked it up and turned it on. That was in 2002. We bought a complete spare parts kit, but we could have saved the money. No Problems.

Previous experience with a BE FM transmitter and Exciter are similar.

You will find people who love their BE Audio Vault and others who aren't so sure. Automation systems in every station need an on-staff "advocate" who is the local guru and knows the system inside and out, backwards and forwards. Stations who have such a person don't have many problems. Those who don't.....well, that's another story. Because the Audio Vault was ahead of it's time, it took some bad raps from operators who didn't take the time to understand it, or had people who fought it. Those who really "get it" like the Audio Vault a lot.

Based on my experience, as we prepare to upgrade, I wouldn't consider anything other than a BE transmitter.

Updated information about KMCQ:

-------------CRTC OKs CHHR/Vancouver Frequency Change-------------

SHORE MEDIA GROUP has won CRTC approval to move its pending new AAA CHHR (THE SHORE)/VANCOUVER from 104.1 FM to 104.3 FM and increase maximum effective radiated power from 8,000 to 10,000 watts, reports NORTHWEST BROADCASTERS.

The move will help facilitate a portion of the multi-frequency swap that will allow KMCQ/COVINGTON, WA-SEATTLE (formerly at THE DALLES, OR) to move to its intended facility at 104.5 FM atop COUGAR MOUNTAIN. The CHHR move will pave the way for AC KAFE (SOFT ROCK 104.3)/BELLINGHAM, WA to move to 104.1 FM.

maybe tubres will be outlawed after June!!??

I'm glad that the thermoionic amplification devices that I have are TUBES and not TUBRES. It would be a tragedy if I couldn't use my TUBES after June of this year. Of course a mad anti-TUBE psychopath could break into my house and break all my TUBES, but I think that the chances of that are very slim.

It wouldnt be such a bad thing if they outlawed putting turnips in my vintage amps. Thats a change i can really hope for.

wich pdx radio stations are green?certified!?what are the qualifications??

Perhaps the ones with gardens at the tower.

Mix 93.5 KHAL (Condon) is now using the 103.1 translator (formerly rebroadcasting 102.3 KYYT) to cover The Dalles. KHAL is also streaming online (www.mix935.com) with very high quality!

Who issues these radio station green?certificates!? I haven't heard of them. If you are thinking of KGO's solar panel array, that is a joint venture between KGO and PG&E (the San Francisco area utility company) that was undertaken for publicity purposes. You can read the press release here.

KUFO and KLTH's applications to move to the new master antenna have cleared the FCC. KUPL and KXJM filed a little later. KINK already has a construction permit that runs out in July. It won't be long now.

This is exciting! KUFO, KINK, and KLTH will be sounding pretty "strong" here in Eugene.

KXJM should be close.

F**K You Smoochie, I don't complain about your f**cking music.

That can't be E_dawg spewing that. If it is he has flipped.

I don't think Semoochie has ever complained about JAMMiN 107.5's music!

Yes, KXJM will also be getting a slight upgrade, but won't have the wattage of KUFO, KINK, and KLTH. Of course, KUPL's coverage will remain about the same.

I don't quite follow--I don't think Semoochie said anything about the programming on KXJM. Has E_dawg's account been hacked? Strange things happen on this message board.

I've been contributing to this board for 13 years! Have I ever put down anyone or anything unless someone was getting a raw deal? I wish you could hear me laughing for I know what happened: I was responding to Radioexpert's comment about the 3 stations' improved coverage of Eugene and you thought I dropped a letter but I didn't. I said "close", as in "Close To You" or "Closer To Home". I was referring to KXJM's new signal strength being "close" to the other 3! It won't be quite as strong because it's a Class C0, not a full C and must reduce power a little bit when moving to the new antenna. KUPL is also moving but won't be nearly as strong. How do you suppose he knows what music I f*** to?

So much for reading right, understanding, and knowing the English language.
Can we "all just get along" in radio..."yes we can" !!!

"How do you suppose he knows what music I f*** to?"

I don't know, but if I were you I'd keep my blinds closed and stereo turned down!

Anyway, does anyone know if KLTH has changed towers or reduced power? While driving from Gresham to Sandy on Monday it got very weak. It was good in Gresham, OK in Sandy but it was hard to keep locked onto stereo in between. I don't remember there being a weak area there before.

This is just a guess but it might have to do with reducing power for work on the nearby DTV antenna. It could also be about moving to the new antenna. It would appear they haven't moved yet because the application was granted this week.

Makes sense. Thanks, Steve.

I looked at the filing dates for KUFO and KLTH, comparing them with the dates for KXJM and KUPL, so I might have some idea about how long it would be before the latter 2 would be granted. The answer is "Wednesday"! It already happened!

Gee whiz.

2:30 Saturday afternoon, KINK is broadcasting from the new antenna on the top of the new KOIN tower, and will be running it for about an hour as a test. Then, they'll switch back to the old main.

A few weeks ago I heard KINK quite well in the car while on the PLU campus in Tacoma. It'll be interesting to see how well they do on the new antenna.

KINK, KUFO and KKCW used to all be above 1600 feet above average terrain. I'll check the exact figures and convert them to meters.

Yes, KUFO, KINK, and KKCW used to be above 500 meters (HAAT)...and were "downgraded" for reasons unknown to me.

KINK changed from a high gain many element antenna to a lower gain 6 bay in the mid 80's. If memory serves the radiation center was lowered ever so slightly, probably to get more TPO. I doubt if this info is on line but you might try.

Not sure but again if memory serves in the late 80's KOIN added some ENG gear at the top under the TV antenna, and UFO's antenna was lowered a bit.

Dunno about KKCW. Weren't they on the 49 tower?

Sometime back, a KXL engineer stated that before the station added nighttime service, signing on at 6AM was considered "presunrise authority". In an unsuccessful attempt to find out the year that PSA and PSSA began, I discovered a statement in the FCC rules that explained that the maximum power for PSA or PSSA was 500 watts or the authorized daytime or critical hours power, whichever is less. This indicates to me that my original assertion was correct when I said that KXL was able to sign on at 50kw in the dead of winter because it was a limited time station, only protecting WSB and merely needed to clear sunrise in Atlanta, thus having nothing to do with PSA.

Thanks for trying Semoochie, it's been a hard nut to crack alright.

I've forgotten why they moved KINK's antenna farther up the KGW tower. Lee McCormick once told me that they had a spot on the tower completely engineered for a null to fall right on the river, and then the powers-that-be decided to move it...up I think, because of KUFO's new antenna. Half of the former KINK main antenna became the backup.

KUFO's 6-bay ERI antenna was side mounted in about 1981 just below the KOIN batwing. It was there until the current 2-bay backup antenna was installed near the top of the east 970 tower in 1997. Then the main antenna was removed and the CBS ERI 6-bay panel was installed.

THEN the KOIN steerable microwave dish was installed.

KKCW was on the channel 49 tower with a panel antenna just below the channel 49 antenna, and I think it was just above the former channel 10 antenna, but I'm not sure.