http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/121427970261960.xm l&coll=7

For all the rural counties that relied on this money and voted in favor of Bush and the GOP, this is a prime example of you getting what you voted for! Instead of money coming to you, it's going to Iraq.

The problem is, not only will rural counties be affected, so with the Portland area because we subsidize many of the rural counties as it is. Oregon just took a $238 million dollar hit and it will be made up with a combination of job and service cuts and higher taxes. Hope you're happy Bush lovers!!

And schools will eventually get hit hard.....again.

Liberalism at it's maximum.

Did you read the article? I hope not, for the alternative to not reading it would be stupidity. The countries quit producing timber. The feds paid them money for awhile to help them over the loss. Now, that's drying up, as it should.

Why should I pay tax money to keep areas in Oregon awash in money when their exportable resources go away? It's there problem to solve.

You libs just don't get it do you?

Hmmmmmm......maybe they could divert some fat lottery profits to help out!

"Why should I pay tax money to keep areas in Oregon awash in money when their exportable resources go away? It's there problem to solve."

Residents of Nebraska take in more federal funds than they pay in to the system, so you're not paying for anything in Oregon.

Hmmmmm.......start producing lumber again. The biggest killer of spotted owl's is it's own cousin the Barred Owl. It has invaded it's territory and is by means of natural selection offing it's weaker cousin. So all we need do is map out were ol' spotty has been eliminated from and log the timber.

Or we could be willing to just suck it up and not care about The Spotted Owl and move on. I admit, there is a line that shouldn't be crossed with lumber. But The Spotted Owl isn't anywhere close to that line.

The timber industry provides roads into old growth forests that are needed by the forest service to combat forest fires. Without these roads and the clearing of old growth timber and other fire hazards the northwest will see forest fires growing in magnitude and destructiveness as time goes by.

Vitalogy beat me to it!

WE end up paying for YOUR tornado shit and FEMA, and do we complain? No. Not much.

Man, with the Earth near the tipping point of many adverse possibilities, I'd hate to start to messing with the habitats of endangered spieces.

There are other things we can do first and we'll start with one of my wasteful-use-of-natural-resources pet peeves:

Ban the raising of horses on land zoned as farm use (unless the horses are actually used for farming).

Do we eat horses? No. So why should we allow horse owners to remove prime farm acreage from crop or livestock production? Make them pay through the nose for wasteful use of our planet's resources. Limit horses to land ill-suited for farming. Industrial areas and brownfields are ideal.

Next on my wasteful hit list: Golf courses. Relocate them to closed landfills. If its good enough for Home Depot, its good enough for Pumpkin Ridge. Brownfields would be ok too.

Deane_johnson:
Why should I pay tax money to keep areas in Oregon awash in money when their exportable resources go away? It's there problem to solve.


We're paying for your troubles, you don't see me complaining.

I also don't see you saying anything about all the corporate welfare your Republican friends handed out the six years they were in power. Especially to big oil.

"Liberalism at it's maximum. "

Ironic that it's the heavily red areas of the state that are dependent on the "extraction economy" and now the timber payments.

Tadc, the same thing applies to red states, they take in more tax dollars than they produce. They are welfare states.

Where does the money go in Oregon?

We get 0.4% of the Federal budget and rank 41st out of the 50 states in expenditures. The top five products or services sold in our state might surprise you. A whopping $479,771,650 is for trailers, another $138,101,135 is for advanced research and development of "Defense Missile and Space Systems" and the princely sum of $100,211,916 is spent on "Hazardous Substance Removal, Cleanup, and Disposal Services and Operational Support" while $30,417,230 goes for trucks to pull the trailers and $29,394,971 for surgical supplies.

USAspending.gov

So why should we allow horse owners to remove prime farm acreage from crop or livestock production?

Hmmmm. Let me think.....Wait....Wait....Wait....

I got it.

Because it’s THEIR land.

The liberal tree-huggers killed the logging industry. We (all of us) subsidized the people they (the liberal tree-huggers) put out of work. Now when the subsidies are drying up, they are complaining. Sounds logical to me.

Here's a good idea; Put the loggers back to work. Thin the forests, cuts down on wild fires, we don't spend all that money fighting the fires and the loggers are making a good wage again.......Works for me.

"Because it’s THEIR land."

I know. That's why the planet is on life support.

I take it you like horses?

While I have the floor, what it is about horse owners having an unsatible need to haul their horses around in trailers? Do horses like to travel?

There is a fancy horse boarding and riding place nearby called the "Whip and Spur". Several times a day I pass this place and wonder what kind of nutbag names their place after abusive treatment of animals?

I'd like to show up there one day with my whip and spur and ask the owner(s) if they'd like a little beating?

Anyway, on the upside, this place has greenest grass on this side of Heaven.

I take it you like horses?

Sure. I like pretty much all animals (except for one species that I made clear, in another thread, that I don't care for!)

I really like Cows. Medium rare especially!!!

I think people haul their horses out to trail heads and places to ride, I guess.

Actually, I think horses do like to travel. The most common uses for the trailer is a new group ride, or a show.

Can't exactly ride 'em to those places, so it's a trailer, or nothing.

Those times I've been around the horse activities, they seemed to enjoy the whole experience. Good animals IMHO.

And there are very few things that compare to a good horse and rider hauling it at a full gallop. That's roughly 40 MPH or so, and it's cool.

Missing, you just described the closest thing to "Heaven on Earth", for me. I can't imagine a life without my 1500 lb best friend.

Yep, a great horse can be a good friend. The first time I had that experience, it just happened. I was not asking the horse to go full on, so it just decided to blow off some steam.

Scary first, angry second, excellent third, when can we do it again? fourth!

Another great thing about horses is the trust relationship. Really, a lot can go wrong for both. It's a fairly unique experience with an animal, IMHO.

I do know horses like doing stuff with people. The ones I've known get decidedly cranky if there are no activities.

Also, I think it's a simple respect thing to at least know the name of any horse ridden. (and I know that for all of them I've ridden, even if it was a quickie trail ride!)

What you guys are talking about isn't what I'm seeing a lot of these days . . . I'm seeing people hauling in trailers of horses to "private country parks" and ride around on highly manicured green grass -- English riding style. It doesn't strike me as fun for a horse to be whipped into running around a track or jumping hurdles.

It is one thing to have a working horse on the farm, even as a pet, but its another thing to use a horse for a sport for humans. Somebody will have to show me that horses WANT to do these things.

God knows I'd never whip my dog, but why should whipping a horse be acceptable? Isn't a horse intelligent-wise about the same as a dog?

You know I really don't know.

Fair question, IMHO.

I'm not a big horse person these days. Growing up, we had them, and on occasion today, I'll ride them.

Never thought about comparing horses and dogs smarts wise. Maybe they are about the same. Probably.

So, let's say they are.

There is a bond between horse and rider that's not unlike dog and owner. There is trust too and recognition of who is the higher being.

I know dogs bond to their owners and do the kinds of things their owners do. Hunting dogs, racing dogs, lap dogs. Most dogs will go to the mat if there is danger too.

In that way, I think a dog is different than a horse, because a horse may or may not do that same thing.

Part of it comes from the body --how the animal is built. Horses can fight, but not all that well. They can however, move things and people.

At some level, I think they know this. They are aware enough to recognize their value, who they are, and if we share time with them, care for them, then they return the favor in the ways that make sense for them.

Horses are built to do stuff, so they do exactly that! Can't really hang out on the couch with a horse. We are too different for that.

Sorry to digress, but a lot of what people say is instinct really comes down to possibilities. Say you are a cat. Live dirty or clean? Living clean only leaves so many options, right? That's why cats groom one another, and dogs play in the water.

They are built differently and this impacts their behavior.

Horses are built to work more than they are anything else. IMHO, they like that.

So, riding them around at different events and challenging them could well be something they enjoy, particularly if that's the environment they know from birth.

Horses can't really groom either. Their owners do that, and the horse really appreciates it. The natural state of the horse is not as good as the maintained state of the horse.

I think the horse knows this too, just like your dog or cat does. They have it easy, don't really have to compete, because we care for them.

They know that and return the favor in like kind, sharing time with us and enjoying the world with us.

This also puts a burden on us to listen to them and try to do our best by them. A horse may really like a given field. It will tell you when you take it there. Ignoring that is violating the bond between the animal and it's owner.

Horses also know when their owners really like something and when both like it, then it's just great!

Give and take, IMHO.

Perhaps those shows and challenges are mixed in with long and peaceful rides elsewhere more suitable to the horse. If so, then I suspect it's a good relationship.

If the horses are only show, all the time, maybe then it's not so good.

Depends on the horse, owner, and if they have a bond, what it means.

I know it's not good, if there is little bond at all, like treating the horse like just property to be exhibited. This is true of any animal.

I'm not really picking on just horse owners -- other types of animals with irresponsible owners get my ire too.

I believe that if you're getting an animal for a companion, you need to be prepared to keep the animal for life. Many pet owners come up woefully short in this regard. Horses have two additional strikes against them, 1) they're huge and 2) they live a long time. Boarding an animal somewhere for most of its life isn't responsible pet ownership IMO.

I would think that unless one already owns a large spread and have ample and steady funds to support horse ownership for 25 years, one shouldn't own a horse.

Years ago a former sister-in-law was a horse trainer with a large arena and stables in northern Washington. Quite a few horses were boarded there. During the time I stayed, nary anyone came to see their own horses. The whole thing struck me as sad.

(Even sadder still, year later she got tossed off a horse she was training and never fully recovered -- they had to sell everything, including their own horses.)

Totally.

Animals are aware enough to know they've been dumped, and that really sucks.

"The liberal tree-huggers killed the logging industry."

Actually, if you studied historical facts, you would know that the current state of the logging industry has little to do with "liberal tree huggers", or environmentalism of any kind.

The logging/timber industry killed itself with unsustainable harvesting practices. It was in a state of decline well before the recession of the early 80s and development of other timber sources accellerated it's demise, with the Spotted Owl becoming the scapegoat of ignoramus rednecks everywhere.

What were already unsustainable rates of harvest were accellerated to all-out plunder levels during WWII in support of the war effort, and continued after the war to build our suburban paradise.

"with the Spotted Owl becoming the scapegoat of ignoramus rednecks everywhere."

I have to take issue with that remark. I am VERY fortunate to have grown up the son of erudite parents who called the timber industry their professional home for a nearly combined 80 years. In fact my father, now retired, continues to work in the industry in a consulting capacity. But to cast aspersions on taxpaying citizens who make or have made this industry their professional home is an insult to every logger, sawmill/paper mill employee, log truck driver, timber faller, log scaler and log and chip buyer/seller who has ever worked in the industry. And to assume that they are ignoramus rednecks is absolutely preposterous. I’d love for you to call them such to their faces. That might make for an interesting dialogue. But to blame the industry in total for federal policies that in the end created an unhealthy dependence of federal timber is not the fault of the men and women who worked in the industry. There were myriad factors that played into the arrangement. I’m not saying the industry is blameless, that would be silly, but the federal government subsidies industries left and right – and to think otherwise is ignorance of the facts.

Sometimes, we city folk get a bit too big for our britches.

Actually, if you studied historical facts.

The RADICAL EXTREME RIGHT doesn't study they make things up and have talking points tossed around radio and TV shows to their minions.