Man are we suckers or what? So, I saw in a report on KOIN showing some minister wailing during a sermon that it was a MIRACLE that everybody got out of the house the plane crashed into.

Man, what a heaping load of bull shat crap.

The fact of the matter is this: GOD sat in his easy chair and did not do one damn thing except watch the plane crash into the ground -- splat -- 50 dead humans.

Ya know I dont believe in "god" either but for what ever reason I am not as angry about other people believing in him/her as you seem to be.

So they believe in something that doesnt exist, what do you care really?

Maybe it has something to do with being told what we " need " by those who do believe. And that we'd " better believe or else " or that our country is founded on those beliefs ( even though that is not true ) and if we don't believe, then we are somehow a lesser citizen. Or that believing in god somehow is a trump card to end a conversation when it get's sticky. Or that people who believe in god like to kill others in the name of god.

You know, small stuff like that starts to bug a person after a while.

That's exactly what it is with me.

It's ugly enough and pervasive enough that I have to work regularly at ignoring it.

My favorite is when people are down on hard times, for whatever reason, and get told, "follow god and your life will improve". Or, the opposite! Having it really well, those same people will "want to teach them a lesson".

It's just shitty.

See now, and this is where someone like Broadway ( Sorry Broadway, I don't mean to single you out. Sometimes the shoe fits though ) tries to wrap it all up with " Oh yeah! Whaddya know? We're human. We all make mistakes. You're looking too low. It's above my paygrade. " type bullshit that invariably comes on the heels of telling us we need god. So if I thought that that meant I would see less of that kind of shit in the future, I'd meet you more than halfway. Unfortunately, the pattern has been to INCREASE the passive / aggressive nature and really turn up the heat. All that focus on the sword and abortion and anger and wanting others to bend to THEIR will ( all while hoping that nobody notices that they are utterly flawed and represent the worst part of believing in god - but feel they deserve a free pass from fellow humans because they believe their cause is above reproach ) is full-on infuriating.

Believe me, I know we're not perfect. I don't need to be reminded. Others need to quit just saying that and really live it. The obliviousness of being so transparently hypocritical is a TERRIBLE witness.

Skep-

I find it interesting for a person who has issues with those of faith and belief in God that you seem to bring up the subject of God more often than most on this message board. It actually amuses me to a point but also forces me to sharpen my own personal belief system.

You seem to be extra-extra SKEPTICAL in some of your most recent posts. I’m not sure why that is, but it’s like you’re dangling a carrot in front of those of faith so they stumble and bumble into a non-winnable argument that there is no loving God if he/she allows such tragedies happen.

Well skep, welcome to the side of faith that actually has no answers!! Yep, no answers to why shit happens to good people for no good reason.

This past week my wife and I saw our tax lady. We’ve been with her for 20 years so we’ve gotten to know each other and our families well. She is a follower of Jesus. For the past 4 years her youngest son has been battling cancer. After putting up a courageous fight he died this past September at the age of 31. When we arrived at their office there was a wonderful memorial of pictures. This young man who was lucid right up until his death, planned his own memorial service. He leaves behind a wife and two young children. Very sad situation. But that young man truly lived his final years to the fullest.

We talked about the grief she and her family were going through and yet in the midst of all those feelings there was hope, support and love from those surrounding their lives. Though the pain of losing ones own child (my folks faced that same thing many years ago) she clung onto her faith, not as a crutch or an empty hand but as something tangible.

The plane that crashed from the sky happened because from what I read there was severe ice buildup that compromised the aerodynamics of the plane.

Question God all you want and go ahead and even mock God you’re not alone. As a matter of fact you and many prophets in the Old Testament have a lot in common.

I appreciate your posts and I hope you continue to challenge what I hold true. I am sadden by the very same tragedies you witness however even in the midst of this horrible accident I believe there is a God holding and caring for those who lost loved ones whether they know it or not.

I guess Skep it’s all in our perspective.

And Mc74, believe it or not I think you made a valid point too.

CJ -- The WORST possible. Actually a negative, but for attracting more of the same kinds of people.

LOL@ Chris! "Yep, no answers to why shit happens to good people for no good reason." -->Totally!

The best witness really are those people that appear to have something, and it's WORKING for them, and MAYBE it will WORK for you too. Whole different ball game there. It's even pleasant. It's sure not threatening, or reeking of envy, or disdain.

You know "miracle" isn't always a "we need god" thing either. It's the "teach people a lesson" types that really work hard at implying it is, but it just isn't.

(and that is why I work regularly at ignoring the types mentioned above)

Sometimes it's just amazing! And that's just simple awe at things turning out the way they do.

No harm in that.

You know, small stuff like that starts to bug a person after a while.

That's exactly what it is.

non-winnable argument that there is no loving God if he/she allows such tragedies happen.

But on the other side of the coin, isn't EVERYTHING that is said by many a religious person a non-winnable argument from my perspective. I can't really feel too sorry for anyone who doesn't like their own tactic.

but it’s like you’re dangling a carrot in front of those of faith

But didn't KOIN do this by airing a sermon by a wacked out minister from a church 3,000 miles from here? Instead of stumbling, we're pointing out what's wrong with religion in America. KOIN crossed a line and the people responded. To not respond moves us closer to the Taliban.

I understand the personal joy and satisfaction one gets from religion in the light of personal tragedies, that's all private and frankly, none of my business. But when a religious leader blantly (sp) dupes followers, ESPECIALLY when they let in TV cameras, then it becomes my business.

I think people should have the option to rethink their religious views -- one week we have a miracle flight, God saves everyone on board the plane, the next week, another plane, God kills everyone instead. Hmm . . . maybe this God stuff isn't adding up, I think I'll play with my kids or help an elderly neighbor on Sundays instead of going to Church.

So they believe in something that doesnt exist, what do you care really?

Its called keeping another type of terrorist out of our lives -- the Taliban.

I get the feeling you want some sort of religious censorship. Like you personally believe that if someone preaches god that your life is ruined.

News for you, its not. Time to move on and focus on more important issues then other peoples personal beliefs.

When someone from the church committs a crime or does bad in the name of god ill be there to call them out. If they want to believe god is watching over them and protecting them, then more power to them.

" Time to move on and focus on more important issues then other peoples personal beliefs."

That's very funny.

Skep I didn't see the KOIN news story so I can't comment on it.

Pastor's, teachers, mechanics, IT people, bosses, airline pilots, waiters, mail carriers....all of them at one point in their lives have said the ridiculous. No one person is immune. However it seems for you anytime a "religious" person crosses the line it's a bigger deal. In most cases I agree but we all should be held accountable.

Bad religion has caused much suffering so have bad CEO's. We just had a bad president and look at the wake of the destruction he left behind.

I sometimes feel the very mention of the God's name just ripples your spine. I have on many occasions tried to present another side of the face of "religion" because of some of the posters on this message who IMHO have distorted and perverted what I hold dear.

There are religious voices of common sense and reason, however to get ratings KOIN and many other stations show the whacko's that reinforces many stereotypes. You have whacko's in all area's of life, but it seems to you the religious whacko's do the most damage.

In spite of this minister, many of today's relief organizations got their start because of people of faith saw a need and wanted to help. Many faith based organizations do God's work quietly and unassuming because it's the right thing to do.

Maybe Skep it's time to watch less TV news to avoid those religious whacko's and do as you have indicated, spending Sunday mornings with your kids and helping an elderly person.

The way I see it, more if more people handled their religious beliefs like Chris does, we'd all be better off.

My personal take is that anything is possible and nobody on earth knows what happens when we die. With this said, I respect people's own beliefs but don't be arrogant enough to say you have the secret answer to mankind's biggest question.

Vita- Coming from you I really appreciate it.

I'll easily second Vitalogy in that sentiment!

as always, well done Chris!

I've said that before about Chris too.

Unfortunately the world is also filled with people like Rev Phelps to Jim Jones. Who keeps them in line? Not certainly people from mainstream churches, sadly. I don't need to tell the camel-in-the-tent story here.

I sometimes feel the very mention of the God's name just ripples your spine.

It is not God himself, it's God's people. If they'd all knock it off, I'd be thinking about how interesting it is people find comfort this way, rather than having to fight off people hell bent on telling me how to live, see?

Besides, I've heck of a time dealing with my daughter going to school in a town (Newberg) hell bent on turning her into a religious nut case 'but if you die, you won't get into heaven' or 'what Newberg grad DOESN'T want to go to George Fox?' C'mon, let a kid be a kid, eh?

Maybe Skep it's time to watch less TV news to avoid those religious whacko's

I rarely watch TV news, but as it turned out, I sat down to eat a strawberry shortcake my wife made and turned the TV on and there it was before I could even change the channel -- which I did, promptly over to PBS. Ugh!

Skep

I do disagree with this idea that Jesus came to save you from going to hell. That was never his focus, however it seems to be the 20th and 21st century focus.

It does trouble me that some who believe in God think they actually know the scriptures and just accept it as fact without really delving into it intellectually like any historic document needs to be dissected.

I have been in email contact today with one of my long time cherished pastor friends who is near retirement. Here is part of what he wrote: "With reports on what Jesus did and said, we only have records of traditional lore that has passed through 30 to 50 or more years beyond the time of Jesus' death, and through various cultures and languages. It is clear, for example, that the Gospel writers, who wrote well after Paul's writings, often have little clue of Palestinian geography, or Jewish culture. Ergo, I'd wonder if they'd be the most reliable reporters vis-a-vis what a 1st c. Palestinian Jew -- from "The Galilee" no less -- thought and said."

So the question might be raised, why on earth would I put faith in such writings? For lack of a good answer I'll just say for now...why not?

Skep thanks again for keeping me honest.

I've been out of town the last few days, so I did not have a chance to see the KOIN report. My only question is, why did KOIN consider this pastor's comments newsworthy? I know that sometimes journalists make gaffes by giving people whose views are not representative airtime (i.e. a news department feels that they have to get the "faith community's reaction," so one of the reporters gets some video of the first preacher that he can find, and that footage is used on the air). I don't know whether this was the case at KOIN, so I won't point any fingers.

I do disagree with this idea that Jesus came to save you from going to hell. That was never his focus, however it seems to be the 20th and 21st century focus.

My Catholic upbringing pretty much was along those lines. How did it come about that many people are thinking this way -- hell bent on saving us from hell?

I know that sometimes journalists make gaffes

Alfredo, I was going to mention perhaps the KOIN news editor that afternoon just blew it by taking a clip out of content, but man, it was a story on the crash, not about nutty ministers or something else along those lines. Maybe somebody got chewed out today.

why did KOIN consider this pastor's comments newsworthy...

As was mentioned above; Ratings.

The interesting thing to me here is, Skep says he might just "play with my kids, or help an elderly person instead of going to church on Sunday."

Our Pastor would call that doing God's work also.

>>Our Pastor would call that doing God's work also

Amen and Amen.
Helping, encouraging,
(whatever troubles come our way explained or unexplained by God)
...is a God thing.

"How did it come about that many people are thinking this way -- hell bent on saving us from hell? "

Skep I wish I knew. But what I think many good people of faith forget is the first century Hebrew who is trying to make sense of this guy Jesus. Culturally it was a very different time and what was going on in the minds of first century Hebrews and those that call themselves Christians today is vastly different.

I guess it gets back to dissecting the biblical roots of Christianity, which is steep with Jewish tradition.

The idea the bible is "infallible" is simply the wrong way to understand the bible. It was never meant to be infallible or fallible.

If one truly reads their bible the right way you will have more questions than answers. It’s not an answer book to life’s big questions. And those that claim the bible to be the inspired word of God, which I believe it is, must realize it’s not God’s actual words. There was plenty of human intervention over the years.

So somewhere among all the different bible translations someone got the idea that Jesus saves you from going to hell. Others bought into it and today you have people going around screaming on street corners, sincerely thinking they are spreading the gospel and saving anyone from hell if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

First century Hebrews would have never gone there and never did. So Jesus comes along, fully Jewish and fully human and proclaims: “ the kingdom of God is at hand,” following his baptism. First century Hebrews could understand that, because they had been raised to look for a Messiah using this very language. Actually during Jesus time there were two other “so called Messiah’s” claiming the same thing. But the difference was Jesus didn’t bring an army like the Jews were expecting to conquer the Romans. He wasn’t what they were expecting. And I guess that’s my biggest point.

It’s not a question of whether you’re going to hell or not. That’s actually bad theology if you really break it down. For me it’s how are you living? And from what I am seeing Skep, you’re doing a pretty good job. Thank God. (wink)

For me it’s how are you living? And from what I am seeing Skep, you’re doing a pretty good job. Thank God.

Well, thanks.

Chris, at the risk of sounding like a complete hypocrite and doing the very thing I abhor; Telling people what they need to do. - I'm going to say it to you anyway.

Don't ever change.

I feel a group hug coming on...

now that would be a miracle.

Aw shucks guys.

In the light of all this good will, I've decided to just bite my tongue on the next 3 nutty God-related incidents and not create a ruckus.

Nice!!

(life is a notch better that way Skep!)

I'll be sure to keep my nutty God-related stuff on the shelf and just share quotes like this:

"How can I believe in God when just last week I got my tongue caught in the roller of an electric typewriter? ~Woody Allen"

>>keep my nutty God-related stuff on the shelf

but guys, you have me to deal with! Actually I have mixed reactions with many of the above posts but decided to just include a couple of quotes as per Chris.

I see God in every human being. When I wash the leper's wounds, I feel I am nursing the Lord himself. Is it not a beautiful experience?
Mother Teresa

Those who thank God much are the truly wealthy. So our inner happiness depends not on what we experience but on the degree of our gratitude to God, whatever the experience.
Albert Schweitzer

One of the biggest problems with this and other religious discussions centers on the fanatics who insist on lumping "god" -- which at least 70% of the world believe in a form of (christian, islamic, judaism, hindu, and some primal-indigenous) with the belief in "jesus as god" which only a minority of the world believe (33%).

Anytime a government is subverted to favor the unique beliefs of subset of believers, whether its sharia or evangelical; the entire population suffers.

Let your beliefs inform your life. But law and government should remain neutral...allowing personal faith to remain just that -- personal.
Keep it to yourself. If your god is all powerful, he doesn't need a street team.

"Keep it to yourself. If your god is all powerful, he doesn't need a street team."

Well put! Someone should tell the mormons.

Hey guys. We're almost at the end and it looks like we'll be able to solve this 4000 year old problem right here on PDX Radio.

Not everyone will be privy to our resolutions ( unless they are registered users ) but we'll have it sorted.

5 or 6 more posts and I think we've got it.

>>5 or 6 more posts and I think we've got it

not if God has His say about it...(wink)

Fine. 7 then.

Hey, one of the numbers of perfection...I like it.

7 is a perfect number? I didn't know that. What are some others that are perfect? What makes them perfect?

...oh wait...is this something Biblical? Let me guess - 6's are evil.

Not 6's, just the number 666, unless it is referring to the album by Aphrodite's Child!!!

Tdanner-

I'll probably not keep my personal opinions about my faith quiet since it's so much apart of my life. However I will clarify them as my own based on the experiences of my life.

We all express varying degrees of personal faith, not all of it religious. Unfortunately too many express their personal beliefs in such ways that is a major turn off and builds walls. I believe that is what Broadway does, although he may not see it as that but as God's will, it's still a big turn off to me.

Terry you have expressed certain health related topics that I firmly disagree with and could hold up the same mirror as you hold towards those of faith. So let's just be clear when we voice an opinion or express a thought that we make sure we don't generalize it.

I have certainly done that and am as guilty as the next person.

"7 is a perfect number? I didn't know that. What are some others that are perfect? What makes them perfect?"

6 (start cringing, Broadway!)
28
496
8128
........ (on into infinity)

What makes these numbers perfect is that they are positive integers. IN other words, the result of adding the positive divisors except for the number itself yields a perfect number.

So if you took the number 6 and added all its components (1, 2 and 3) together you'd in fact end up with 6.

So if you were to add all the numbers together plus the number itself
1+2+3+6=12
and then divide that in half
12/2=6
you'd end up back at the original number.

There. Ever since I graduated from EHS seven years ago I had no idea why I was required to take three trimesters of pre-algebra in my Sophomore year. Now I know why. ;o)

That's using the Euclidean method given by the formula 2^n-1(2ⁿ-1) which yields an even perfect number, assuming that 2ⁿ-1 is a prime number.

Now, if we are discussing Platoan philosophy, 10 would be considered a perfect number, as it equals the number of digits (fingers) on both human hands.

Hey, you asked............

To give Broadway some slack he was referring that the number 7 is a biblically perfect number.

I'll be honest I haven't studied the theological meaning of the number 7. I don' think it's a major point of the bible but more of a subplot.

11 is awesome. Not perfect. Just awesome.

Oh and don't get me started on 42.

42 is a great number.

RIP Douglas Adams. (miss that guy as much as Carlin)

I think the prime numbers are perfect.

Life only happens with the SOVEREIGNTY of an ever present, all knowing, all powerful, living-loving-all creation one true God that has no walls and always listens and further reveals Himself to us by His Word called the Bible. One day you will all realize that He is in control of all things...maybe even your life!

Back on topic...

"HE"?

Does he have a big white beard and wear a robe as well?

I rest my case.

OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD BROADWAY, KEEP YOUR RELIGION TO YOURSELF!!!! NOBODY LIKES TO BE PREACHED AT!!

WWW. ZIP IT. COM!

Hey, Skep opened this bag of shit, Broadway only stepped in it.

CJ, 6's are not evil, someone just got that one upside down, the number of the beast is actually 999. Geeeeez, don't you know that? I mean like it was totally explained in Arnold's "End of Days" movie.

Buns...I try, I really try but Broadway is bent on "Preaching." It's actually not really preaching he's doing, more like being an annoying mosquito.

There are parts of what Broadway states I believe are true, but it's all in the way the message is sent in order for it to be received.

It's like having TBN thrown in our faces only in print form.

My son has a mark of 555 on his scalp. He's the chosen one to make phone calls in movies, I guess.

CJ- I have a toll free number mark on my lower left thigh and a bar code under my right arm pit.

THX 1138 ??

>>an annoying mosquito

it says BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ...I say...There IS a God who is interested in your life.

>>TBN thrown in our faces

my 6th pithy post on a hot topic for me...trying to reel it in guys...but still love hearing from ya...

> It's like having TBN thrown in our faces only in print form.

Or, what about those guys downtown who wear sandwich board signs and stand near bus-stops, hoping to get the attention of people waiting or walking by? They make it look so easy.

By the way, in reference to the comment that appeared much earlier in this thread, asking why there is such a focus today on Jesus saving people from Hell, I ask, could Martin Luther have been the person who got the ball rolling on this line of thinking? Some years ago, I watched a film about Luther, and in one part of the movie, he declares, "a person is saved by faith alone!" The movie portrayed him as pushing this view in the face of the Catholic establishment, which at the time supported things such as buying one's way into heaven through the purchase of indulgences.

Alfredo-great question about Luther. I would have loved to have seen the movie in question.

It's hard to say how Luther would have answered the "hell" question. I don't think that was a main focus for him. His battles with the papacy of the Catholic church are legendary.