So, I applied for two coupons the other day. Anyone bought one yet? Do you just take the coupon to the store and get $40.00 off at the time of purchase? I was looking at the Insignia converter, anyone have any input on the different models good or bad? Just curious as I still have two TV's not on SAT or Cable.

FYI, the Insignia box (assuming it's still the same model) is the same thing as the very "well-received" Zenith DTT900 receiver (I think that's the model; they have that one at RatShack right now.) I think the only real difference is the "INSIGNIA" logo badge instead of the "ZENITH" one.

Great DXing box from what I understand.

(I don't have the Zenith yet but I hope to sometime soon....)

They are like gift cards. I got my two earlier this year and used them this summer. I bought the cheapest boxes I could get - $49.99 (before $40 savings) at Fred Meyer. These boxes are fine, really - I don't have HD and don't care at the moment. Someday I'll be buying a nice LCD or plasma TV. In the meantime, I'll keep using my 18 year-old Sony 27" Trinitron.

My friend got the Radio Shack box for $59.99. Actually it is quite a bit nicer than mine - has many more features (like built-in volume control and a remote with memory) that mine don't have.

Can't speak to the picture quality, obviously, on my old TVs but they look quite good to me.

Andrew

"I'll keep using my 18 year-old Sony 27" Trinitron."

Except for a "puff of smoke" (yoke shorted) a few months ago that's where I would be*... I found a 32" lcd Sony that fit ok in the same wall unit. Still prefer the color range of a crt over the lcd !
From the comments on the thread on the other side about reception of the weak (52KW) KORS Ch. 16, it would appear that that not all converter boxes are created equal! There are some reviews on Amazon.

* my tron was only 14 years old...RIP

The insignia NS-DXA1-APT and the Zenith DTT901 look identical as you said. Same price at $59.99 before coupon. So two of these will cost me $40.00. Good reviews on the Insignia/Zenith and looks like the Apex is a POS according to it's reviews.

TY

L8R

http://www.hulu.com/watch/36608/talkshow-with-spike-feresten-cable-psa#s-p1-st-i 1

Do you HULU.....hell ya....love that website!!!!

BTW

32" Sony Trinitron, don't know it's age but it's still going strong!

I got the gift card early on then it expired before I was able to use it.

Still using the 13 inch Sony mainly for viewing old family videos.

I have all of you beat: I have a late 1960s vintage 25" color Emerson. The only semiconductors in that TV are one transistor in the UHF tuner and a few diodes here and there. The picture tube is of the older style "delta-gun" configuration, where the red, green, and blue phosphor dots are arranged in a triangle. When properly adjusted, the color rendition can look pretty good, but the convergence isn't as precise as it was with later color TVs, which had the red, green, and blue guns in a line.

After this discussion today, I went ahead and applied for a $40 coupon... can't wait to see HDTV on my 3" Pilot:

http://www.radiolaguy.com/Showcase/PilotTV-37.htm

The Pilot was the first commercial TV that sold for under $100, in 1949.

Judging from reviews, the Zenith that's been updated for analog pass-through is one of the best ones, but Winegard and Tivax models are also tempting.

Edit: According to one source, a converter marketed by Dish Network is best. There is no specific mention of sensitivity comparisons on this blog though.

In my neighborhood near the U of O, students move out and leave analog TVs by the side of the road. No need for me to blow big bucks on a digital set when at the end of certain months I can just walk up to the corner and get a still-working analog set for free! There will probably be more sets available in a university/college neighborhood near you during the month of December. Just try and grab one before it gets rained on.

Randy, I haven't been able to find anyone locally who sells the Echostar ATSC box. Have you had any luck?

(Employees at Worst Buy on 164th and Circuit City at Jantzen Beach all seem to want to redirect me to DiSH Network DVB receivers instead. No thanks, I already have two FTA satellite receivers that get *way more* than those DN boxes ever could.)

Of course, I haven't checked Video Only yet.......

Sears was mentioned by someone who commented on the Echostar/Dish Net box.

So, I just got my two cards. I'm going to get the Zenith converters unless anyone knows of any problems with these or if there are any better choices out there.

"Sears was mentioned by someone who commented on the Echostar/Dish Net box."

*slaps forehead*

Damn! And I was just there yesterday!

I like the 49 dollar ones sold by TARGET The label on the bottom is RCA model STB 7766G1 good picture analog pass thru...works fine easy to set up

Ps DON'T lock in the channels!

ok, I am violating my own rule. Gotta run. Drop me a line, but take the anchor off first....
Write when I find work!

That would be the "Venturer STB7766G1"

Consumer Reports Ratings for those interested.

The Zenith DTT901 looks like it would fit the bill. Has the most available features according to the above report.

So I too got my cards yesterday.

So do we know what channels we will get when the big changeover happens? I mean will we get anything other than the standard over the air not anymore channels? I know OPB has more than one HD channel...

Got my card today...bought a Zenith at Radio Shack, Sets up quick, works fine. 16-1,2,3 are the weakest from Hillsboro, and only indicate about 50% on the undefined strength scale, but no dropouts have been observed. I tried to Dx Eugene/Corvallis, but so far no luck. I noticed that 22-1,2,3,4 were missing. First I thought that the Zenith had a problem with low band VHF OTA ATSC signals, but these channels (OTA ch4) are also missing on my Sony HDTV. Are they off or at low power due to tower work?

Isn't digital 22 moving from Lo-VHF-4 to actual channel 22 from Sylvan(?) in the next couple of weeks? Maybe they are getting their equipment ready for that.

I got a couple of the cheaper RCA DTV boxes a couple of months ago, and they seem to work ok. I am suprised that I can actually get some solid signals from Portland here in Sheridan.(Just the Sylvan stuff, though-2,6,24 and 32)

Yes! the ch 4 antenna is off the tower at the Skyline site. I found this on the SBE 124 website:

"KPXG SWAPS ANTENNAS
It was originally supposed to be done by helicopter, but when the helicopter companies bailed, Radian had to hustle to swap antennas and remove the gin pole before the November ratings sweeps began on October 30th, and before the weather turns bad. On one corner of the Skyline Tower platform, they swapped the KPXG-LP 54 antenna for a broadband one they'll use again for 54, and starting February also for KPXG-DT 22. (Photos by James Boyd K7MKN)."

http://www.sbe124.org/newsletters/pdx1108/

Some nice pictures of the old and new KXPG antennas in the newsletter!

Ch 54 is back on the air... perhaps they will just switch the transmitter to digital and change frequency to ch 22 in Feb?

My mistake, so it is the Skyline site and not the Sylvan one.

That holds out hope for me to get 8 and 10's digital signals once they go to VHF-Hi since I did get KPXG's digital signal here when it was on channel 4. (and the fact that I get 8 and 10 with not much discernible multipath unlike UHF signals from Skyline.)

What is the purpose of a co-located digital translator?

KPXG DTV game plan?

"Exhibit 3
Description: EXHIBIT 3
THE STATION WILL TERMINATE ANALOG SERVICE ON DECEMBER 3, 2008, PURSUANT TO THE THIRD DTV PERIODIC REVIEW, 23 FCC RCD 2994, PARA. 133. THIS ANALOG TERMINATION WILL PERMIT THE STATION TO COMMENCE EARLY DIGITAL OPERATION AS REQUESTED IN BDSTA-20081103ADM."

From:
http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?contex t=25&appn=101276957&formid=387&fac_num=5801

They are already running ATSC on 22!

So far as I can tell, they must have started sometime around Midnight. (I rescanned my boxes at about 12:30.......)

Dennis a.k.a. "Burgermaker" was surprised to see 22 back on the air with the Pansat, considering all the trouble I'd been continually having getting it on 4. Now it's blasting in at 96%, almost like I'm right next to the tower......

(By the way, I'm eagerly awaiting for KPDX or KPTV to start airing the 2 Network sometime real soon.)

Edit add:
Warner--OPB, at the moment, only has one HD channel (10-01.) The other four (three, if you don't count the KOPB-FM simulcast) are SD. I don't think anyone anywhere is airing multiple HD feeds on a single physical ATSC channel yet, aside from the cable companies......and that's QAM. (True, there might be someone doing it somewhere in the USA, but I haven't heard about it!! ;o)

Moto, thanks for the clarification. I'm not a techie type, so that helps.

But no one has answered my question. When the change is made in February, what channels will I see with my HD converter? I live in the Southwest PDX suburb area.

Yep, just rescanned the Zenith and the Sony... very good signal strength (and, perhaps will get better when ch 54 is shut off?). Thanks for the "heads up".

Here is a trap that we might fall into in Feb. when some digital channels change frequencies. The first scan that I performed on the Sony was an "add digital channels" scan... it did NOT find the new ch 22 digital, and insisted that the transmitter was still on ch 4 (but with no signal)...arghhh! A fresh scan for "all available channels" found the new ch 22 digital channels, and sorted everything out ok.

Mmmkay, here's what I currently can get at the apartment~

02-01 KATU-HD
02-02 KATU-SD (apparently in "testing" phase at the moment, as they are broadcasting colour bars with the audio track from the main channel)

06-01 KOIN-HD

08-01 KGW-HD
08-02 NBC Weather Plus+ (channel similar to The Weather Channel but more local. Rumour has it that NBC's going to can WP+ by the end of this year.......)

10-01 KOPB-HD (for the most part, a satellite channel known as "PBS-HD")
10-02 KOPB-SD (simulcast of analogue channel 10)
10-03 PBS Create Channel
10-04 Oregon Channel (their progrmaming used to consist mainly of footage of oregon legislative sessions--kind of like TVW in Washington--but over the last couple of years, "evolved" into a sort-of "the 'other' KOPB-SD"-like scenario)
10-05 OPB FM Network (apparently in testing phase according to the EPG)

12-01 KPTV-DT

16-01 KORS mux (Home Shopping Club)
16-02 Bohemia Visual Music (Edit add: read "Platypus" Paltridge's somewhat strange commentaty of BVM here!)
16-03 Colour bars (arguably the most interesting thing on TV right now..... ;o)
(The KORS multiplex isn't available everywhere, and even I have only seen it twice here in Vancouver)

22-01 KPXG
22-02 Qubo (Children's programming from NBC)
22-03 ION Life (lifestyle programming)
22-04 Worship (Religious music & nature scenery)

24-01 KNMT-D1 (simulcast of KNMT's analogue channel)
24-02 Church Channel (Televangelists)
24-03 JCTV (religious programming for teenagers; billed by TBN as "Christian Music & Extreme Sports TV")
24-04 TBN Enlace USA (Spanish)
24-05 Smile of a Child (Children's programming from TBN)

32-01 KRCW-DT (also used to have The Tube on 32-02 until October of last year)

49-01 KPDX-HD

One of these days, either KPDX or KPTV will be carrying a subchannel known as 2 Network. It was supposed to start next week but now they're saying it's supposed to start next spring sometime. Guess we'll see then.............

Also, in the past, ch 6 DTV has provided more channels during "March madness".

KOIN did have (for the most part) an SD simulcast on 06-02, but they turned that one off earlier this year.

Bi-Mart has (had) the Zenith converter for $49 ($10 less than Radio Shack). Wallmart has a nice RCA for $49. So, if you signed up and got the two gov't $40 coupons, they're just $10 each. Good picture quality with both. Weird sound tho. Uneven levels between programs and commercials. I don't think it's the receiver's fault.

Great to see the extra digital channels. OBP's four - a fine spread of programming. You can watch Newshour live at 4 in the afternoon. I'm getting the popcorn ready. All free! Why pay for cable/satellite?

So, if you are on Dish Network, say the basic package plus local channels, will you get these new HD local channels as they come online?

I thought I saw light at the end of the tunnel when Jr Tech suggested rescanning. I did so(at my mother's house)and it worked like a charm on channel 22 but there's still no sign of channel 16. The next step will be to get a ladder over there to disconnect the channel 22 antenna that's connected by yagi splitter to the main antenna. That should provide more signal strength. How in the world are we ever going to explain to Mr. and Mrs. America that you have to rescan your TV set every time a new channel goes on the air?

How in the world are we ever going to explain to Mr. and Mrs. America that you have to rescan your TV set every time a new channel goes on the air?
Anyone else remember those TVs and VCRs in the early 80s where the tuning for each channel was done with several switches and a dial? Reminds me of those. (I want to say they were called "veracator tuners", but I couldn't find a webpage to confirm it... but then again, I'm up and posting online in the 2AM hour only because I can't sleep tonight for some strange reason.)

I remember those. Family owned a few. Variactor, does come to mind, but I'm not sure either.

First time I ran into one of these I had three thoughts:

Who is the idiot that signed off on that?

Ordinary people are screwed.

What a PITA.

Varactor Diodes are still used as the main tuning elements in modern sets... the user interface has improved over the old "pushbutton and thumbwheel" method used in the 80's sets. When you do a "scan" the voltage requirement to tune each channel is stored in memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicap


Any reports from the Salem area...Did they indeed shut off the analog ch 22... How well are the new digital channels coming in?

Those were varactor tuners. The little dial activates a potentiometer that sends a tuning voltage to the tuner. The little switch selects the band (VHF-Low, VHF-High, or UHF). I have an old Curtis-Mathes VCR that uses that scheme. Many years ago, my dad bought a Sony Trinitron that worked the same way. These tuners usually had 12 pushbuttons, which came from the factory adjusted for channels 2-13.

A few days ago, I found a doom-and-gloom piece that said that the switch to DTV may end up killing over-the-air broadcast TV. This article cited that even in the last four years, viewership of over-the air TV has declined by a non-trivial amount. The loss of TV service to the types of TVs that are generally not hooked up to cable systems or satellite receivers (portable TV and those under-the-cupboard TV/Radio combo units) might be the final nail in the coffin. If you want mobile TV today and are willing to pay a subscription fee, you can get Verizon V-Cast, which operates using the Qualcomm Media-FLO system. My own doom-and-gloom says that one day, virtually all TV reception might require payment of some kind of a recurring fee--either to your Internet service provider, to a wireless phone company, to a cable company, to the phone company, or to a satellite company. Free-to-air satellite might be the last bastion of free TV.

"How in the world are we ever going to explain to Mr. and Mrs. America that you have to rescan your TV set every time a new channel goes on the air?"

Right now I see a mix of logic in the DTV tuners:

The Good
These tuners automatically scan the channels when in "standby" mode and add new channels and make changes as necessary if a channel changes frequency. The Zenith *may* do this, I don't know... it was unplugged when ch 22 came on.

The Bad
Scan and add channels ok in standby mode (such as my Sony) but does not respond correctly to channel changes (still thought 22 digital channels were on ch 4).

The Ugly
Scans in standby but handles the data poorly (sometimes crashes). On a Humax tuner that I tried, I had to short out the antenna connector and make a scan to clear out some old data, then re-scan to acquire new data.

Also some boxes don't appear to scan at all in standby.

I suspect that many of the newer tuners will fall in the "good" category, and/or people will learn to scan manually if they think that they are missing channels.

Analogue 22 from Salem is indeed gone from the airwaves.

Alfredo_t explained--
"Those were varactor tuners. The little dial activates a potentiometer that sends a tuning voltage to the tuner. The little switch selects the band (VHF-Low, VHF-High, or UHF). I have an old Curtis-Mathes VCR that uses that scheme. Many years ago, my dad bought a Sony Trinitron that worked the same way. These tuners usually had 12 pushbuttons, which came from the factory adjusted for channels 2-13."

Yes!! My '86 JVC VCR has a tuner exactly like that. Oddly enough, it also has buttons for channels A-F below the 8-13 series. My guess is that they must be available "presets" or "memory channels" for other OTA (likely UHF) stations.

(My Grampa always called the little knobs and switches on the varactor tuner on their former J.C. Penny VCR "slugs", but I never knew why....)

> My Grampa always called the little knobs and switches on the varactor tuner on their former J.C.
> Penny VCR "slugs", but I never knew why

Was he a radio guy?

Well, the DTV broadcast quality has me checking out ordinary, OTA broadcasts more often than I have in years.

Perhaps it's just not as bad as they say. What is needed is an ongoing gentle push for people to just check it out. From there, plenty of them will use it because it's cheap, and a fair number of people always love cheap.

Remember the little CH 22 or 49 bowtie freebies? lots of people used those, saw enough to invest more. This might not be any different.

So far, I've hooked up antennas to a few HD sets. People like it, and it's great when the dish or cable craps out in the winter!

"Was he a radio guy?"

He operated the radiotelephones at the Army base for a while when he was in Viet Nam, kind of like Radar did on M*A*S*H, but not a "radio guy" as in broadcasting or HAM, no.......

The reason that I asked was that when I saw that he used the word "slugs," I thought of the variable permeability tuners where tuning is accomplished by moving a ferrite bar (the slug) in or out of a coil. Mechanically tuned car radios typically used this type of tuner. My old late 1940s vintage Zenith AM/FM table radio uses this on FM, as well.

I would like to try an experiment with mobile DTV sometime. Since I live by myself, I will have to get a helper to do this (safely) The experiment would be simple: power a DTV tuner from a vehicle's electrical system using an inverter and watch the output on a portable TV. Check reception conditions while driving on residential streets (20-25 MPH), major streets (30-50 MPH), and at freeway speeds (50-65 MPH). Supposedly, the American DTV system can't handle changing multipath conditions very well because it uses vestigial sideband AM, as opposed to a more robust modulation system, such as OFDM. From past experience, I know that the picket-fencing rate on the UHF TV bands is around 30 Hz when moving at freeway speeds, and I suspect that the tuners would have a hard time keeping up.

"(My Grampa always called the little knobs and switches on the varactor tuner on their former J.C. Penny VCR "slugs", but I never knew why....)"

Back in the '50's, Many TV's in this town were VHF only sets. CH27 was the only station on the air in this town and to get CH27 on those sets, they would remover the stuff from the rotary tuner on a vacant (?) channel and put a CH27 tuning slug in it's place. That was common. Our first TV (Capehart) had a 27 slug in the CH2 spot.


"02-02 KATU-SD (apparently in "testing" phase at the moment, as they are broadcasting colour bars with the audio track from the main channel)

06-01 KOIN-HD
"

2-02 will be a movie channel, "THIS", starting probably next month. It is a new network that started Nov 1. Looks like MGM library after TCM. Plus their TV programs. They ran Breathless Friday evening, some recent flicks yesterday, and today are running The Aviator, Teachers, The Three Amigos, plus episodes of Outer Limits, Mr. Ed, Patty Duke, etc.
It is currently playing in Milwaukie, Wisconsin on their local CBS station, WDBJ. It is on their 58.3 DT channel. They have 3 DT channels. Their 58.2 is another independent station. You can see their schedule at:
http://www.cbs58.com/pages/schedule/

6.2 is still on randomly. I can see it occasionally.

All Converters are not the same. I have 3 different ones. Their signal strength meters do not compare equally when trying them at the same point. That is a relative number, but relative to what? You can compare the signal strengths of the signals on a particular box but that does not compare to a different box. I have two Zenith, two Apex, and one Channel Master. I got the Channel Master because it has S-output. It cost about $80 but it is better than the other two. It tends to have a stronger signal strength, on its meter, than the other two. It seems to work on all channels just fine with all signals locked in. The Apex does not get sound on the 16's. The Zenith looks good but pixilates on 16 more than the Apex. The Channel Master just keeps working. These are from my location in east Gresham. My Mits TV has trouble at the same point, with CH2 when it rains, is foggy, or whatever. But the Channel Master is just fine. This is from the Antenna pointing directly at the towers. I can turn the antenna about 10 degrees clockwise and CH2 will lock in but I lose 6, 8, and 49. Strange. 2 and 6 are on the same panel, I believe. I have a ch22 antenna on the same mast about 6 feet above the regular UHF antenna. I disconnected the lead to it last week and I lost 49. I think I need to take one of the converters on the roof with a tv, run the cable down inside the house connected to the main "spigot", and remove the old 22 antenna and slide the regular one up and down and around on the roof to find the best spot for it to get all well.

The CH 4 transmitter has been off for a few weeks. This was covered in a thread on the other side. I have moved my VCR's and other stuff back to 4 and they are now clean.

I notice that on my Mits and on my Channel Master, I do not need to scan. 16 was not caught when I originally scanned them. On both, I manually told it to go to channel 16 by punching 1,6 on the remote. Both caught it, recognized all three, and added them to the list, such that when I use the channel up and down buttons, it stops on all 3. I had to rescan with the Zenith and Apex boxes.

You won't need 49(or 48)at all because 30 is moving to 12 and 48 is taking over 30.

Thanks all for the channel rundown, this is helpful.

So We have/will have?

2=43, stay on 43
6=40, stay on 40
8=46, move to 8
10=27, move to 10
12=30, move to 12
16=16, stay on 16
22=22, stay on 22 (just moved from 4)
24=45, stay on 45
32=33, stay on 33? (also has ch 5 translator in Portland...will that stay on?)
49=48, move to 30

Additions, corrections ?

So, does anyone know what KGW will do with 08-02 once Weather Plus is gone? SD simulcast, maybe?

On Sunday afternoon, Jr_Tech helped me to perform the mobile DTV experiment. I was behind the wheel, and he was operating the receivers, so I will defer the details to him.

We tested two different receivers and two different antennas. Our route was a loop that included Jackson School Rd., US 26 eastbound, Cornell Rd, and Walnut St. Most of the test was performed using the signal of KOPB-DT (channel 27).

On our first drive, the setup started out with a Humax home tuner connected to a small UHF dipole antenna with a suction-cup mount to the windshield. With this antenna in the residential areas of Hillsboro's 6th Ave., reception was possible if the vehicle was not moving. Any motion, even significantly below the posted speed limit of 25 MPH was enough to disrupt reception. For the rest of the drive, a Radio Shack twin-bowtie/reflector antenna was used. This seemed to provide more stable reception. While driving through residential neighborhoods and wooded areas, reception would frequently break up. However, when driving by open fields or on US 26, where there was a clear line of sight to the towers, reception was stable, even at highway speeds. It was noted that objects, such as bridges or even other vehicles that block the line of sight can cause reception to drop out. Driving back on Cornell, reception was difficult to impossible while the vehicle was moving.

On the second drive, an add-on tuner for a PC was tested (I do not remember the brand). The test of this device started with the dipole antenna and switched over to the dual bowtie roughly at the same spot as where the antennas were switched on the Humax. The performance of this tuner was poorer than that of the Humax, with reception breaking up more frequently at all points in the test route.

I think Alfredo_t pretty much nailed it... clear line of sight to the towers produced stable, perfect pictures even at highway speeds. "Picket fencing" did not appear to be a factor. In areas with obscured view of the towers, there would be frequent "break up/freezing" of the picture until the car was stopped, then the picture would lock in. The "all or nothing" properties of the digital transmission mode were apparent... the picture was either perfect or non-existent/frozen, with little in between (sometimes pixelation would be observed at the transition).

The USB tuner card is by "AVerMedia" which measures only about 2-3/4"x 1-1/4" x 3/8" and contains 4 fairly large ICs. It was plugged into a MSI wind, which uses a low power 1.6 ghz Intel "atom" processor which is not quite fast enough to decode the DTV smoothly, especially when under-clocked, while operating on batteries. It works well enough as a "roof top" set for adjusting antennas. Perhaps battery operated DTV portables will appear soon?

Found a DTV portable on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Axion-AXN-8701-Widescreen-Portable-Handheld/dp/B001FWYLLG/ ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1228773233&sr=8-1

First review is from November so this must be a fairly new item. Out of stock right now

What a fun test. Thanks for doing it.

I've done similar things with my laptop and TV tuner. The little 6" antenna has a mag mount, so I just stuck it to the roof of the car and took off.

My experience was very similar. If you are line of sight, no worries at all. Wouldn't be a stretch to catch a news cast or something on the way home. Watching it is another matter.... maybe audio only!

What surprised me was the reception I got with that little goofy antenna. When stuck to the car, it worked just great! Didn't think much of it when I opened up the package for the external USB tuner / capture card, but it's been very good.

At my old house, towers were not line of sight at all. RF dead zone. Got NO HDTV there without a nice antenna. At the new one west of Hillsboro, I get everything but KATU, with the small antenna.

A full on HD broadcast is touchy, but anything lower than that just seems to work.

Good tests.
Now, if you could repeat the tests, in the same areas but with different stations. To see how each station compares against each other at the same location. You may see the same effects but with different results at a given spot.

And therein lies the future problem. Different results with different frequencies at a given spot.

The reason you may have problems with just doing an update scan on a converter box, such as with 22 is that the original scan reassigns a channel. For instance, when 22DT was on CH4, it reassigned 4 to 22. When you do a rescan, it won't look at the actual 22 because it thinks it needs to look at 4. When you do a total rescan, it clears out all reassigns and scans fresh from the beginning. You will need to do this when 8, 10, and 12 move their DT's to the original VHF frequency. When the others are in the process of changing frequencies, we may be doing many full rescans.

Regular TV reception isn't all that great in a moving car, is it?

"Regular TV reception isn't all that great in a moving car, is it?"

Nope! When I was a kid, I had one of these 8" RCAs:

http://www.radiolaguy.com/Showcase/RCA8pt.htm

My parents had a 100 watt inverter in their car, so I performed roughly the same experiment (using analog TV) decades ago. There was considerable "picket fencing", ghosting and flutter while traveling on hy. 26 & Cornell rd... not very watchable at all!

not very watchable at all!

Given that most cars only have one occupant, I look at this as a good thing.

> Regular TV reception isn't all that great in a moving car, is it?

From my own experiences, I would say that it varies greatly -- from an OK (but not great) picture to totally unwatchable (i.e. a rolling and tearing picture with blasts of hiss in the sound). Some level of ghosting will be experienced, no matter how flat and open the terrain may be around you. The two main differences with DTV are
1a) the interruptions are longer
1b) when an interruption occurs the sound totally goes out
2) changes in multipath conditions, rather than the multipath itself are what seem to make the reception go out.

In my opinion, (and I think the opinion of J.R.) #1 is what really makes the DTV difficult to watch. Because dropouts can easily cause the picture and the sound to go out for many seconds, it would be difficult to keep up with what is going on in a broadcast.

#2 was the most interesting observation. If I remember correctly, when we stopped at one of the intersections on Cornell, reception came back. Then, a car went by in the right-turn lane, wiping out the sound (and presumably the picture; I wasn't looking at the screen).

Delivering live video broadcasts to mobile receivers still seems to be a formidable technical challenge. It would be interesting to see how a Verizon Vcast mobile phone performs under the same conditions. Vcast uses Qualcomm's MediaFLO system, which is a proprietary encoded data multiplex transmitted as OFDM. MediaFLO uses 4096 carriers, spaced at 1.355 kHz, to transmit the data (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaFLO ). The result is that each of the individual carriers only has to transmit at a very low data rate, whereas in 8VSB (the modulation technique used in DTV in the United States), a single carrier is used to transmit the entire data stream. The latter is supposed to be much more resistant to multipath and other forms of interference because of the low data rates and because of redundancy that can be built into such a parallel data transmission scheme.

"dropouts can easily cause the picture and the sound to go out for many seconds, it would be difficult to keep up with what is going on in a broadcast."

Never did find out who that singer on Austin City Limits was.

Time for a Re-scan! It appears that OP Has dropped one of the SD channels on their DTV stream.

10.1 = OPB HD
10.2 = OPB
10.3 = OPB Plus
10.4 = OPB-FM (Which appears to be KOPB-FM HD-2) Nice!

Converters:

Won't help you in a power outage. Better save up for a generator or a new battery powered TV with a new tuner ... haven't seen any yet but I'm sure they're out there.

RX antennae in motion:

This is a very challenging and highly technical subject. This was first and foremost on the minds of the satellite radio receiver manufacturers, but had been investigated by the military and aviation industries with respect to radar well before.

In synthetic aperture radar reception, a patent abstract states:

A method and apparatus for improving the performance of Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) systems by reducing the effect of "edge losses" associated with nonuniform receiver antenna gain. By moving the receiver antenna pattern in synchrony with the apparent motion of the transmitted pulse along the ground, the maximum available receiver antenna gain can be used at all times. Also, the receiver antenna gain for range-ambiguous return signals may be reduced, in some cases, by a large factor. The beam motion can be implemented by real-time adjustment of phase shifters in an electronically-steered phased-array antenna or by electronic switching of feed horns in a reflector antenna system."

If you read the paragraph below, you will see how the same approach is implemented by RaySat.

RaySat's SpeedRay 1000 satellite receive antenna antenna is permanently enclosed in a self-contained, weather-resistant housing that mounts securely to the roof of most vehicles. Employing proprietary RaySat technology, the antenna continually receives the satellite signal using a system of phased-array panels which rotate, pivot and swivel inside the housing at all times. The panels track the satellite regardless of the vehicle’s speed and position, maintaining a strong, steady signal for clear digital audio and video reception.

http://broadcastengineering.com/eng/Raysat-speedray-antenna-20050523/

http://www.raysat.com/

If this is all too confusing, just think Doppler shift.

"10.3 = OPB Plus"

From what I can tell from looking at the EPG, "OPBPlus" is the PBS Create Channel during the day and some of the programming they used to carry on Oregon Channel during the late afternoon and night.

(At least that's how it is today; I imagine it's subject to change at probably not even a moments' notice!)

Last night at about 10:30, there was posted on OPB's feed of PBS Create to "Look for changes to this channel starting December 10." (Or something along those lines, anyways.) And here I thought they were planning to bring "PBS You" back from the dead....... ;o)

Sat TV antennas for moving vehicles are still a bit expensive:

http://www.skyvision.com/store/mi1500095.html

about 2K...OUCH!

"10.4 = OPB-FM (Which appears to be KOPB-FM HD-2) Nice!"

They seem to have switched back to regular KOPB programming on the first audio channel... but "OPB Music" can now be found on 10.4 "audio 2".

Realizing that I really should've done this sooner (and thinking at the rate things are going, the switch will happen during another huge storm), I got off my butt and requested my own coupons. I'm guessing they're swamped, it said the expected mailing date is 1-9-09.

With the ch 2/DN mess causing me to use box where I had not planned, I went ahead and requested a second coupon yesterday, and got the 1-9-09 mailing date also. I ordered my first coupon on Nov 7 and received it Dec 2.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking. Even though I think I'd be OK if TV went away, when it works and when stations are doing news coverage it's still a basic source of information. And, they only need electricity, whereas my computer needs both electricity and phone connections to be working properly.

I get my phone and internet on Verizon FIOS. It has battery backup should the power fail. I haven't had any problems with it since I installed it a month after the fiber was in place. The phone line is absolutely quiet and the DL speed on the internet is 10Meg. I don't use their tv option. But, their internet is better than their DSL was. I had the service people out almost every month and was often lucky to get above 600K DL.

(I was going to post this in the Radio board in its own new thread, but figured I might as well put it in here instead........)
-Seth

===================================================================

Observations of KGW's Weather Plus+ feed

This morning, I noticed that KGW's Weather Plus+ feed on 08-02 became "KGW Weather Channel". There's a new graphic showing this on the L-bar where the old KGW Weather Plus logo used to be, with the clock directly underneath.

For most of last Saturday and all of Sunday (as far as I'm aware) KGW carried a simulcast of its regular-screen analogue feed on 08-02, kind of like what OPB does on 10-02.

(Earlier today the weather map seemed to be frozen on a RADAR picture of what may be precipitation over the East Coast, but it looks like it's working now.)

Interestingly, even though NBC Weather Plus+ reportedly doesn't exist any more, the weather maps KGW gets from NBC still have the Weather Plus branding on them! The EPG on my receiver also indicates NBC Weather Plus, with the channel banner showing "NBC Weather Plus: Hometown Weather 24/7".

Is this permanent or just a temporary thing? Or does KGW have "other plans" (whatever they may be) for 08-02 next February?

Hooookay, here's an addendum to the list of ATSC channels that I wrote earlier:



02-02 KATU-SD (4*3 simulcast of the "regular" KATU)

08-02 KGW Weather Channel (skycams & weather reports/forecasts; basically the leftovers of KGW's NBC Weather Plus+ feed after NBC pulled the plug on WP+)

10-03 OPB Oregon Plus (combination of OPB's PBS Create feed and the scraps of OPB's former "Oregon Channel", sort of a "KOPB-SD 2-like" thing, if you will)
10-04 OPB FM Network
audio channel 1=KOPB-FM, audio feed 2=OPB Music (2 is the same as on KOPB-FM's IBAC secondary, but of way higher fidelity.) It also has a slide show!
10-05 removed; everything on 10-05 was moved to 10-04

(All the others, as far as I can tell, are still the same at this point in time.)

saw a quick news story today that the program is running out of money now.

If you submit after the funds are gone, you will get your coupon after it's been funded again.

This program has been going on for over a year. If you hadn't applied by now, well, there is no excuse.
There was only a certain amount of money set aside for this. Those applying now go on a waiting list. When an issued card goes past it's expiration date without being used, they issue that one to the next person on the waiting list. The waiting list is at about 100,000 people.

Of course, that does not stop one from buying one without the coupon.

Yeah, they are cheap. No worries.

I didn't do a coupon for that reason. I've got a coupla capable tuners. One on the HD telly, and the other on a PC capture card. That's enough.

The rest of the house is analog NTSC, but it's on a Sat, or just used for games and my video work.

Just didn't think I would need one, and there are probably lots of people that do!

So, with coupons I can get two dish network TR-40CRA converters free and only pay the $17.90 S&H. http://www.dishnetwork.com/dtvpal/tr40CRA.shtml
Anybody know if these are decent boxes? I see that they have like a 7 day program guide instead of just the now and after like most boxes have.

I was considering them but too many bad reviews.

These guys have many in stock and a good comparison web interface:

http://www.solidsignal.com/dtv2009/how_to_purchase.asp

I haven't made up my mind yet, either.

Right now I'm liking the Artec Digital ATSC Coupon Eligible Digital Converter Box W/ Analog Pass-Through T3AP Pro (CECB)

These guys have it for $41

https://www.digitalstar.com/product.aspx?guid=9a93d138-4696-41be-b323-1cb6522922 3b

This box has a 12v input so it works on a car battery in a power outage, assuming you have a battery powered tv.

Just a FYI here, the Analog Pass-Through in my Zenith box (DTT-901) has a fair amount of loss... if I needed to use this feature, I would still have to use an A/B switch to view weaker UHF analog channels (like 35, 38, 47 & 51).

For my other box I'm leaning Tivax STB-T8.

EE (digitalstar.com) has lowered a lot of prices. Most boxes are 40 to 50 bucks.

Well, i'm leaning heavily towards the Zenith DTT-901 from the Shack. It has solid reviews and supposedly the best video quality with a universal remote that works with most TV's as well. The Dish unit I mentioned earlier has pretty poor reviews.

Solid?

http://reviews.cnet.com/tv-hdtv-tuners-receivers/zenith-dtt901/4505-6487_7-33178 359.html?tag=api&subj=re

The universal remote is nice to have but tiny, and the video is rated good but poor audio. Hmmm.

Consumer Reports also gave it a less than the best in video.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/electronics-computers/tvs-services/digital-tv -converter/recommendations-and-notes/digital-tv-converter-boxes-recommendations- and-notes.htm#18

I guess it's really splitting hairs. I want one of my boxes to be easily powered by battery, which is the Artec. The Tivax had great ratings across the board. I'll pass on the Zenith but I'm still comparing. Thanks for the input.

Anybody have any idea how well the Echostar box would work as a DXing rig?

I have a couple Zenith DT901's. Not really happy with the video on either one. One has horizontal black lines going through it. It does have a power switch for the TV, however. But no other tv remote features. I don't notice the insertion loss but I much prefer the Channel Master unit. It has better sensitivity, also.

22-3 is running some program called get out that has girls in little bikinis bungee jumping into a pond. Those going backwards or head first get their heads in the water. Sounds like Aussie's by their accent.

Oh yeah. The stuff you find on the sub channels if you look.

OK then, the Zenith and it's cousin Apex are out I guess.

I've been kind of looking at this one from Target as well: http://www.ezdigitaltv.com/RCA_DTA809.html Must be a fairly new model, not a lot of feedback out there on it but it is one of the few that does have the smart antenna port should one want to go that route.

Anyone tried the RCA DT809 yet?

Somewhat on topic, KKEI has applied to move to channel 24. Now, how does this work? If you go to the established channel, the new TVs are supposed to automatically switch to the new frequency but if there's a new station on the old frequency, what happens?

Consumer push back?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2009/01/06/ST2009010600089.ht ml

The fat lady ain't sung yet.

Ah, what the hell. Why don't they just finish auctioning off channels 52-69 and let everything else remain as is. Or, maybe they could additionally force all TV stations to turn in one of their two licenses, at the discretion of each individual station. "Let the marketplace decide"...it would be almost like AM Stereo all over again.

Seriously, though, TV stations are now running commercials explaining to viewers that they need to have their TVs or converter boxes "re-scan" the bands when the switchover occurs. I think that the pandemonium has just begun. Of course, the easy way out is to just call Comcast.

"10-04 OPB FM Network
audio channel 1=KOPB-FM, audio feed 2=OPB Music"

How do you get two different audio channels on 10-04?

There is considerable variation from unit to unit... some remotes have a SAP (secondary audio program) button, others have an "audio" button, on many sets you may have to go into a "set-up" menu and choose the alternate audio program. If all else fails consult your instruction manual... ARRGH!

The Digitalstream and Pansat both have "AUDIO" keys on the remotes.....makes it real easy........ ;o)

(FYI, Panarex now has an ATSC-only box, known as the TR-100. If it's anything like the ATSC section in my 9000, I may just end up getting one sooner or later.......)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28562781/

See? I predicted about a year and a half ago that someone would try to delay the Great American NTSC Kill-Off yet again!

(Someone out there reading this needs to give this man a cigar...... ;o)

Zak, here's your cigar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igfCEdKrZJk

>>about a year and a half ago that someone would try to delay the Great American NTSC

and it's your man...who woulda thunk it...

(chuckling)

You know I find it morbid how concerned we are over this deal. If the TV's go off, even for a while, what's the harm? People will either get the little eye candy boxes, or they won't.

There are other things to do.

We should just do the cutoff and let it all happen as it happens. People will get over it.

My battery powered LCD TV will still be usable (in a feasible way) for some extra time. I consider this a good thing. Note the word "feasible." While a converter could be hooked up to a portable TV, the resulting system isn't that portable. To be honest, as channels 52-69 have been largely vacated, thus meeting the goal of this whole ordeal, what if things just stayed as they are now?

It is difficult to shut down an old system... the BBC continued to broadcast the old 405 line Black and white system until 1985! 625 line and pal colo(u)r had started 20+ years before.

This is so much BS that it defies explanation.
Most rural areas won't be affected because they are getting OTA most probably from translators, which aren't affected.
Anyone who doesn't know about the date and the changeover or isn't educated, as Obama claims, hasn't been watching tv because they have been promoting it over the last year and heavily the past two months or more. The coupon program started a year ago with much publicity. Those who haven't applied by now were just procrastinating and changing the date will just cause them to procrastinate longer.

You reach a point where you just have to pull the plug. It is that way with software support, also. I could tinker with a distributed program forever, improving it along the line. But if the customer has been running with it just fine for three years or more without the changes, you reach a point where you have to stop the mods and move on to the next generation.

I would suspect that most broadcasters would go ahead and shut down on Feb 17, even if they delayed it. Many have not maintained their analogs more than necessary due to the expected shutdown and some equipment is just limping along, waiting for that date. Plus, shutting down will significantly decrease their monthly electric bill. Those moving their digitals back to their upper VHF channels will further reduce their monthly bill more.

No amount of further education will change anything. Some people won't change until they are forced to, no matter what you do. Shut it down on schedule. People will adjust. They always do.
Will there be some changeover problems? Of course. There will be no matter what date is set, even if it is changed. Let's not drag this out and move on.
My wife is having trouble figuring out the Analog vs. digital now, no how many times I explain it to her. She gets confused. Once analog is shut down and her options for getting into trouble decrease significantly, she will figure it out much easier. So will others, with decreased possibilities.

Darn, I want to see the new administration provide a revised coupon program that would provide every viewer with $1000 coupons for new HDTVs! Why mess around with silly little $40 converter boxes? The resulting spending spree would, of course pull the country out of recession, and everybody would be happy!

Everybody is going to be happy even without the $1000 HDTV coupon.

Remember, Obama is going to "Spread the wealth around".

Our money problems will be over and we can all run out and buy an HDTV and whatever else we want!

More like have a job that makes buying that HDTV possible.

What Obama is going to do is tax the rich hard. They have most of the wealth right now. Top 1 percent own more than the rest.

So they give a little, we give a little, pay down Bush debt, and build stuff.

You do know that once the nation is working nicely again, people employed, at lower risk, etc... that top 1 percent will have things to invest in, and get their money back plus.

Besides, are any of you rich?

Thought so.

So then, what's the problem with pushing back a little to straighten out this mess?

> I would suspect that most broadcasters would go ahead and shut down on Feb 17, even if they
> delayed it.

If it's the TV stations that want to shut off one of their transmitters to save money on the electric bill, I say, let them do it and turn in the license. Although it is primarily philosophical, the whole problem that I have with this program is that it was designed to eliminate the element of choice: by comparison, there was never a government mandate that TV had to switch to color, nor was there a mandate that FM radio stations had to go stereo or that TV stations had to go to MTS. There was never a government-sanctioned "transition to FM" for radio, complete with government vouchers for the purchase of FM radios. Yet, these changes happened, due to market forces created by the overall preferences of consumers and, to a lesser extent, actions taken by broadcasters to try to maintain their audiences. Why do we need a government boondogle here?

<so>

What are you smoking? You really believe that will happen?? When already, Obama is going to increase it much more than it is???

Brings to mind statements many years ago by some in Washington. Some in congress said they had no problem raising taxes on the rich so the government could get more money. The rate was high at the time. Packwood said that if it was such a good idea, think of how much money they could take in if they taxed the rich at 100%.
Well, they didn't.
There is a limit at which you get diminishing returns. I don't know what the limit is, but it is there.

Got my second coupon today... from Jimbos' postings, it sounds as if the Channel Master is a good choice for the performance factors that I desire... high quality (s-video) output, and better sensitivity. Anybody found a local source for the CM-7000 ?

I believe Fry's carries the CM-7000 at their outlet in Wilsonville...although they seem to want quite a bit for the thing.

although they seem to want quite a bit for the thing.

They'll want more these days . . . especially since someone in upper management has been tapping into to their bank account diverting some cash for personal use.

Thanks! I went ahead and ordered from Solid Signal:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=CM-7000

Hey, no Analog Pass Thru on that unit?? That's not good is it?

In my case, I don't need analog pass through... the major stations in the Portland area are all broadcasting in digital.

Also, I noticed some insertion loss on the Zenith unit in pass through mode...a simple A/B switch would work better ! (if I wanted to watch 35, 38, 47 & 51)

Add:
This is one of a few units that has S-Video output. This could make a real difference in video quality on larger sets.

"This is one of a few units that has S-Video output."

And that is exactly why it was my first purchase, for the main tv, which has since been replaced by my Mits 65" HDTV.

It is a good converter. Other than Pass-thru, which I don't need, it is better than any of the other 3 I have. At the time, it was the only one with an S-output I could find. Plus, that is the same unit that some of the local broadcast engineers have and were passing around for tryouts early on.

The main stations everywhere are all broadcasting in digital! The only reason anyone would NEED a passthrough system is if they lived in an area that's dependent on translators and even that is temporary.

You know what would be great, when it comes time to go dark, channel 12 comes on with the old this now ends our broadcast and pulling the cord on the light turning it out and then the classic test pattern.

It'll be interesting to see what the different stations do as a last hurrah!

I think they are going to be more interested in turning it off so they can convert their digital to CH12 in as short a time as possible.

I have heard estimates for CH10 and CH8 as taking about 5-10 minutes.

>>The main stations everywhere are all broadcasting in digital

has anyone noticed that KOIN DTV has been going off the air for a minute or 2 almost nightly during peak viewing?

As I will be en route back to Portland from an out of town trip on the date that the shutoff is officially supposed to take place, I will be forced to pick a station and run some tape that night. I haven't decided whether it would be better to run the tape on SP and record roughly 10:30PM-12:30AM or whether to run in one of the slower modes in case that particular station goes off the air earlier.

It would be neat if we could coordinate something amongst people on the board who can get good, ghost-free reception of the various analog signals, and assign each of these people a station to record. That way, we would then have a full set of signoff airchecks.

I was planning to monitor/record the Ch 10 switch... if that helps.

On another message board, somebody popped the question whether the output of a vintage UHF to VHF converter would be usable to a DTV tuner. Note that there is absolutely no practical reason to do this, as all DTV tuners are capable of receiving UHF band signals. The question was just along the lines of, "could this possibly work?" Has anybody on this board attempted this crazy experiment?

I have a 1950s Mallory UHF converter that I will try the experiment with. The main pitfall that I could see is that it might be difficult to tune in the stations, as DTV tuners take a few seconds to begin decoding signals. I also have no idea how much frequency error (due to mistuning) the new tuners can accept. If this works at all, it will mean that DTV can still have the traditional "feel" of turning a dial, as opposed to pushing a button.

"could this possibly work?"

My gut instinct is a big fat resounding NO.

In lay terms, the older the circuit design the less consideration is given to passing digital (19Mbs) modulation. In this case, don't think "bandwidth," think "speed." I'm thinking the envelope will be compromised in the downconversion and became near un-recognizable to the decoder. Remember square wave lab? Pick the wrong caps and watch your square wave begin to look like a sinusoid ... oops, getting technical. Sorry.

here's a question for techies . . .

Do outdoor TV antennas "wear out"?

Logic says no because metal is metal, but I'm wondering if weatherization is a factor . . . I've a huge 14 year old roof mounted thing and am wondering if replacing it will make any difference.

Check your antenna first. If you find corrosion on any metal surfaces that are supposed to make electrical contact to one another, that could certainly degrade performance. See if you can clean up the corrosion. You can use a multimeter to verify that all electrical connections are solid (by measuring resistance).

The other "wear out" factor is in the form of cracked insulators that allow surfaces that aren't supposed to touch to short out to one another.

I'm going to have to call the results of my experiment with the old UHF converter negative. Here is a link to the discussion that put this idea in my head: http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=186277

The converter that I have has a fairly broad output response so that either channel 5 or 6 can be used as the output. As I tuned around the UHF band, I repeatedly scanned channels 5 and 6. What I found was that if I had the converter tuned to a DTV channel (determined by connecting a regular NTSC TV to the output and looking for the snow to change to very coarse black and white dots), the converter box would seek out the signal for about five or more seconds before giving up. Otherwise, it would give up after just two seconds or so. The tuning range (on the UHF converter's dial) over which the DTV tuner would try to seek out the signal for an extended period of time was very narrow; i.e. just move the knob a smidgen, and the DTV tuner would go from at least trying to lock on the signal to giving up in very short order.

Alfredo, would the use of WD40 on any of the contact surfaces be useful? Or would it muck everything up?

I would not recommend WD-40. Instead, I would try scraping the corrosion off with a small Dremel wire wheel. Most likely, the surfaces that could get corroded or dirty are the screws or wing nuts where the antenna cables are attached. There are also electrical contact cleaner sprays available at places like Radio Shack. I don't think that it is likely that you would have to resort to anything this fancy. Other contacting surfaces likely have enough pressure on them that moisture is not likely to get in and cause problems. Of course, you should also check whether any of the antenna elements are bent or have broken off.

Two short elements are missing. Will this make a difference?

Yes this will degrade the performance, likely more so on the higher channels (7-13 or UHF, depending on which ones are missing). It is difficult to say how much it will hurt the performance or if it will prevent you from being able to pick up any stations.

This company has a bunch of antennas posted here:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

Perhaps you could identify one that looks the most like your antenna and then describe where the missing elements were located ?

Jr, using the very first photo at the top of the page, there are a series of short elements at the "pointy" end -- the end that is pointed in the direction of the broadcast signal, On that array there are 6 elements that are somewhat longer and they are insulated from the shorter ones. I am missing three of those.

All the others are intact.

The front part of this antenna (back to the corner reflector) is used for UHF reception, and will be the critical for most DTV reception.

The 6 insulated elements in the front section usually are criss-cross connected to each other and then connected to the feed line. If this is the case, and they are missing, possibly the connections to some of the missing elements could be shorted, if the insulators are broken. Nasty!

The Mid-sized elements are used for Hi-band VHF and an will be critical for some DTV reception... ch 8, 10 and 12 will return to those channels at the DTV transition. I don't know about the plans for Eugene/Corvallis channels.

The longest elements are used for Lo-band VHF channels, and will be of little use after the transition.

What would be a good DTV antenna for a fringe area?

Although I'm on the "wrong side of the hill" for line of sight reception, I used to be able to spot the (then) KGON tower from my roof (although not any of the Sylvan towers) However years of tree growth on my neighbor's property has cut into reception.

As the crow flies, I figure I'm 20 - 25 miles away from Stonehedge. But only channel 6 comes in good. Ch. 8 was fair, but is now worse. Ch 2 was poor and still is poor. Ch 7 is better than ch 10 even with the antenna pointed directly away from Corvallis.

I like the new design UHF/Hi-VHF only antennas such as the HD7694P, or it's longer versions (listed on the same site). I plan to wait until the transition occurs before I decide, as I am not sure how much antenna that I will need for the Hi-VHF channels. My present antenna may be ok... I don't know.

How is your DTV reception now with the "broken" antenna?

Well . . . ahem . . . the converter I got seemingly a year ago with a coupon is still sitting in its original box! Hence my last minute anxiety!

I read in thread in this forum a bit ago that if one's analog TV signal is poor, it is not likely to be better with digital, while a "fair" signal may look better in DTV. Is this a correct assumption?

Try it ... you might like it! Today, I hooked up a box for a friend of my wife in Forest Grove. This was a little 13" set in her quilting room, which could only get a few Portland analog stations very well on it's monopole antenna (mostly a multipath problem rather than weak signal). I plugged the antenna into the box, connected the box to her set and voila! all Portland DTV channels. She was amazed!

OK Techno Wizards, could you modify one of these gizmo's to get HD Radio stations as well??

Of course, you can hear the audio from KOPB FM HD2 on CH 10.4 (alternate audio channel).

I would like to see a chip-set developed for a ATSC TV sound portable radio, to replace all those little AM/FM/TV sound portables that are currently in use (and wont work for TV sound after the transition). It would seem to be a natural extension of the technology to include HD FM decoding in a set like that, IMHO.

Oh Crap, I just realized my battery powered RCA TV/Boombox is doomed in this transition as are all other portable analog TV sets.

Recently, a number of people have been calling Dr. Bill Wattenberg to ask about the fate of these TV sound portables. Except for areas where there are LPTVs or translators on VHF, the TV sound function on these radios will become useless.

It's not just the sound, this boombox actually has a built in TV in it. Digital transmission will doom it to just static in the near future. I guess I better get it on Ebay before it is truly worthless. There should be some suckers, I mean buyers out there that won't think of that minor little problem.

A few battery operated small DTVs have hit the marketplace, and are usually among the "top 10" on Amazons Best selling TVs list:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/electronics/172659/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_e_1_2_las t

Amazon seems to have a difficult time keeping these in stock.

> There should be some suckers, I mean buyers out there that won't think of that minor little problem.

To folks who live in or travel to Canada, Mexico, or many other countries that use NTSC, your portable TV would still be useful.

Surprisingly, many of the reviews on the Axiom TV available through Amazon. com are fairly good. Be warned, though, that a number of these reviews said that the TV worked well when plugged into an external antenna, and one pointed out that reception inside of a moving vehicle was not possible.

I guess I better get it on Ebay before it is truly worthless.

Craigslist is better. Duped buyer can't leave neg feedback!

Transition delay in trouble?

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/01/17/20090117DigitalTV0117.html

My Channel master CM-7000 arrived today from solid signal. I can confirm that it is more sensitive than any other box or TV that I have tried!

My measurement method is somewhat crude:

1. I first determine the amount of attenuation that I can insert in the antenna line to cause the picture to break-up/drop-out on my Sony Bravia.

2. I then connect the DTV tuner being tested and determine the amount of attenuation that can be inserted in the antenna line before it exhibits approximately the same break-up/drop-out condition.

Most boxes/TVs that I have tested are about the same as the Sony.

Today on ch 16 (my weakest channel) it took 23 db of attenuation to cause drop-out on the Sony and 26 db to get to the same (approximately) picture conditions using the Channel Master. 3db improvment is similar to what one would obtain with an antenna that is twice as large.

I did a scan with my antenna pointed south and it found KOAC 7.1, 7.2, 7.3 and 7.4 from Corvallis*, although reception is unstable.

*I am in Hillsboro.

Wooooo--Hooooo

I finally got my DTV converter.

I live 18 miles north of PDX in a valley and with an RCA DTA-809 converter I got at Target and my old rooftop antenna I get 22 crystal clear channels with excellent sound. This unit is supposed to have Dolby sound and I did use the RCA video and audio outputs to connect it to my TV. The universal remote does indeed power on the tv and controls the sound as well. 1-2-3 super easy to setup. As a plus should you want or need to get an amplified Smart Antenna it also has a port for that. Overall very good unit from what I can tell. Target Hazel Dell is the only store I found that carries this particular model. Jantzen beach has a different RCA converter and it did not look worth a crap. Remote only controls converter and no smart port. Another thing I like about the DTA-809 is the internal power supply this one has. Most others require the bulky brick to convert AC down to DC power.

Here is a list of features:

RCA DTA809

General Features:

• Analog Pass-Through
• Smart Antenna Interface
• Remote Control can control major TV brands
• Channel Display Capability
• Electronic Programming Guide (EPG)
• Closed Captioning
• Emergency Alert System (EAS)
• Parental Controls (V-Chip)
• Signal Strength Indicator
• Power LED Indicator
• Energy Star Standards
• Internal Power Supply

Okay, I FINALLY hooked up my el cheapo converter box from Radio Shack (and I haven't done anything else to my antenna just yet).

I have to say I'm impressed.

Ch 6, Ch 2, all 4 of the OPB frequencies, KPTV and the CW comes in (almost) crystal clear. The latter two were very poor via analog as was KATU.

That leaves KGW. Zip. Nothing.

According to the signal strength indicator, KOPB and KOIN registers about an "80", KATU a "60" and KGW a "12".

Maybe I'll move the antenna around a bit tomorrow. Where exactly again is KGW's DT tower?



Also, I noticed "ghosts" with the closed captioning. It "appears" (three bands of faint lines in the middle of the screen) just above where the CC normally appears. It corresponds to the behavior of the captioning. How the heck could this be happening?

KGW's DTV tower is the same as KOPB. They are both on the same tower. It is the one referred to as Skyline. It is on N. Skyline Blvd, the one furthest north. The one above the CH2 and CH12, and CH49 Analogs.

It is not necessarily the amount of signal you get. It is the quality of signal you get. If you get a good signal level but are receiving reflections at that frequency, you will not get a good locked in signal.

We are getting reports from each station that they all get calls that "I can get every station but yours". KATU and KOIN share the same panel antenna and some get KOIN but have problems with KATU and also reports the other way around.

I know a lady near 185th and TV Highway that has a simple little digital TV with a little rabbit ear and gets all of them perfectly. Someone with antennas in the same neighborhood will have problems.

I live in east Gresham with direct line of sight to the towers. It is only maybe 1-2 degrees difference in pointing. With my longtime rooftop antenna setup, I can get all well except KATU and KOIN. KOIN occasionally pixilates, KATU only works if it is a dry clear day. I can turn the antenna to where it seems to work most of the time and I then do not get KGW or KPDX (well, they haven't worked for over a month due to real low power). So, I leave it for now until it warms up outside. No KATU last night. When the tv was in the living room upstairs, I could unhook the antenna lead to the tv and put a pin in the center of the F-connector and hang a 16" piece of wire to it and KATU came in perfectly. Other stations not so much. I could also put a small UHF antenna on the floor of my entryway, on a cardboard box which lifted it a foot off the floor, and get CH2 perfectly. Other stations not so well. My wife would not let me leave it there.
My signal level on CH16 is 1/3 that of the other stations and it locks in constantly. Nothing I want to see there but they are there.

I was told to check the response of UHF amplifiers to make sure they are flat through the whole range because some are not...they roll off at the upper end. But KGW is currently above KOIN and KATU. And they work for me.

As said months ago, welcome to the world of digital UHF.
Your results may vary.

BTW, CH22 works perfectly. Sometimes 24 has problems but I don't watch them.

"That leaves KGW. Zip. Nothing."

When you adjust your antenna, if turning it slightly does not produce the desired results, try lowering or raising it 6" to a foot on the mast... this can sometimes make a big difference.

Also keep in mind that Ch 8 will move it's digital signal to Ch 8 after the analog shutdown (the digital signal is presently transmitted on ch 46), so you might be ok with your present set-up.

If the RS box has not "found" all digital signals yet, you might have to "rescan" the box after each antenna adjustment to see what else shows up on the channel list. (49, 22, 24, 16, 7 ?)

Skeptical:

RetShack sells (last I saw) two different receiver boxes. Are you using the Digitalstream or the Zenith?

I've had the same problem as you describe with the captioning on the Digitalstream box, running it through the line-in (NOT the RF input!) That, and the mediocre convergence of the CRT in my little 21" Sylvania does make it hard to read anyways.......

Thanks for your help guys.

Jr tech,

If KGW is going to move, then I'll wait a few weeks weeks to see how reception is before adjusting the antenna -- its a steep roof and a long way down!

The RS box HAS "found" KGW. Indeed last night I got a few broken up pictures on their weather channel, then it went away.

motorzak,

I have the digitalstream. The captioning isn't hard to read, in fact, there's adjustment that can be made to the letters and/or background with the digitalstream box. The white letters appears too hot -- probably not even broadcast safe, so I can imagine they'd be a problem with crappy sets!

Is there any chance there's interference from channel 45?

Interesting question, we have:

24 on ch 45 (digital)
8 on ch 46 (digital)
ch 47 analog
49 on ch 48 (digital)
ch 49 analog

Wonder what this looks like on a spectrum analyzer? Spectral re-growth anybody?

Jr_tech, it looks about as you would expect it to, here in East Vancouver.

24 on ch 45 (digital): A 6 MHz (or there abouts) wide signal from 656 MHz to 662 MHz.

8 on ch 46 (digital): A 6 MHz (or there abouts) wide signal from 662 MHz to 668 MHz.

Ch 47 analog: A big peak at about 669.25 MHz (Video), a small peak about 672.83 MHz (color) and a larger peak about 673.75 MHz (Aural)

49 on ch 48 (digital): A 6 MHz (or there abouts) wide signal from 674 MHz to 680 MHz.

Ch 49 analog: A very big peak at about 681.25 MHz (Video), a small peak about 684.83 MHz (color) and a larger peak about 685.75 MHz (Aural)

The levels here vary from about -108 dBm for the color carrier on CH 47 to a high of about -72 dBm for the video carrier on CH 49.

The digital carriers are about -100 dBM, -90 dBm and -110 dBm for 45, 46 and 48 respectively.

I'm just using a rubber duckie on my Anritsu MS2721A spectrum analyzer.

I'll try and get the Anritsu software loaded on this PC and figure out how to download the waveforms and either send them to you or I'll post them somewhere so they can be viewed.

Digital TV on spectrum analyzer

As you would expect the power levels of the digital envelope are fairly uniform across the bandwidth being modulated.

Analog TV on spectrum analyzer

As described by Skybill, the power is much greater at the center frequencies of the visual and aural carrier and chroma subcarrier. In analog TV, because the visual carrier is amplitude modulated (vestigial sideband suppression), its power increases with modulation. Maximum modulation of the visual carrier occurs when the screen is in black and can be observed if you dial up the resolution and watch the video for a long black going into or out of a program.

Good stuff, guys! So does anybody else think that with this "wall of RF" between about 656 and 685 mhz that there is ample opportunity for interference that could cause reception problems, especially close in, where the DTV converter boxes might be overdriven?

Before analog shutdown, it's probable.

After shutdown, not so much.

Blanketing interference is addressed in the rules, however, digital tuning and modern design in front ends using advanced filtering techniques enabled by sophisticated integrated circuits keep this kind of problem confined to cheap tuners trying to operate in the most hostile of environments (high fields of RF).

The answer is mostly "no" but you really have to look at interference on a case by case basis.

Hey, it's a government mandated change-a-roo, there has to be interference when the feds are involved!

I'm not trying to say it's causing mass interference, just sporatically in certain areas and probably related to poorly designed front ends. Channel 45 should be all by itself soon and we won't have to worry about it.

KATU starts THIS movie channel on 2-2 tonight @ midnite.

Too cool! The Patty Duke Show tomorrow morning at 6 followed by Mr. Ed! Plus Outer Limits overnight tonight. Looks like the best viewing will be during overnights.

Some of the Mr. Ed episodes have been released on DVD, and they're great, but I don't think the Patty Duke Show is available on DVD. Useta love that show as a kid!

No, Patty Duke at 3AM, Mr. Ed @3:30AM
Outer Limits at 2AM.
Four Hours of kids stuff starts at 4AM.

Coulda sworn KATU's web site TV guide had Patty Duke and Mr. Ed repeating at 6. Oh well, at least I got to see Bat Masterson at 7!

The on screen guide is currently off by 3 hours. There were two Bat Matersons at 7 and 7:30. Still getting the kinks worked out.

I wonder how much intervention this new stream requires from MCR. I've seen some local insertion already this morning so it must take some care and feeding from someone.

Not much. Just to make sure the local insertion server is loaded and occasionally checking to make sure it is at the correct point and to watch the monitor to verify it is on.

That doesn't sound too bad. Can I assume that the network triggers the local insertions, so all your MCR op has to do is make sure everything stays in sync?

Oh, what the heck, it's only my reputation: I hear if the local insertion server is loaded, the wife doesn't like it.

Sorry to hear of your personal problem, there, Semoochie. I hear it improves with less imbibing. I wouldn't know, myself.
Yes, Scott, that about sums it up once the "kinks" are worked out. When the server plays out the locals, it must send a trigger to switch back to the "network", otherwise you will sit in black until corrected. There are other ways to switch back, such as a manual switch. It is really no different than an automated syndicated radio program which keys local breaks.
Automation is everywhere.
I noticed yesterday, throughout the day, that there was a terrible lipsync problem. It appears to be improved today, so far.