» Politics and other things

  1. duxrule

    So what?

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 10:18 AM #
  2. Amus

    "The only bubble is leftist sophistry in refusing to face reality."

    And so it is in the bubble.
    Like it was in November 2012.

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 10:19 AM #
  3. HD

    When you're in the minority and pushing what is contrary to the evidence, it's understandable leftists try to spin like the adulterous husband caught en flagrante delicto, saying to his wife "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 10:26 AM #
  4. duxrule

    Again, I ask, So What?

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 10:28 AM #
  5. Amus

    "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

    So tell me, given your (piss poor) track record, why should anyone believe you?

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 11:06 AM #
  6. missing_kskd

    It's kind of amazing and disturbing.

    Dumb, stupid, etc... get tossed about. Honestly, I can't really say that is the root cause.

    Lying to ourselves is a conscious choice. Doing that is arguably dumb, but intelligent people sometimes do dumb things.

    With religion, people choose to take faith as fact, which renders actual facts of record, backed by science, documented as history, subjective things!

    "Will we ever really know if Obama was born in the USA?" ...kinds of things are the result.

    Notably, this opens the door to invalidate everything! Our founding documents? Subjective. It's all about who gets power in the bubble. If they have power, then they have the facts needed to exercise that power.

    Who is to say otherwise?

    Clearly Republicans do, when they don't have power, but the framing of it glosses over the real and growing issue of "two sides to every story", and "both sides" do it, which more or less moves it all to the lowest common denominator; namely, loudest person in the room wins!


    Whether it's unemployment, the invasion of illegals on our borders, the historic 17 trillion debt, stripping the military, pro-abortion policies, Fast & Furious, the IRS scandal, Benghazi, or strong arming Israel and supporting her enemies, this administration is up to its neck in deceit.

    With a nice Bible verse dropped in there [Hosea 8:7]: For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk: the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.

    Just what do we do with that complete rejection!

    I understand wanting to see it our own way. We all have our policy vision preferences. And that's OK! We get to do that, and we are encouraged to do that.

    However, when we also pick and choose our facts, or actually define the nature of facts themselves, we end up in a place where literally anything can be justified by anything else!

    None of it is rational, and without that, it's very hard to claim it's going to end up just and true, or even at the least livable.

    And it's not a rejection on some track record or other. That too would be understandable. No, it's a complete rejection period. "Hope he fails", "make him fail", "uppity", "boy", "incompetent", "inexperienced", "alien" and it goes on and on...

    It all comes down to a basic personal choice: Do we lie to ourselves or not?

    Once we've lied, and we turn away from the rational, however we justify doing that, anything goes! And what goes is the loudest people in the room, who quite literally have built up a false reality, repeated each day, modified as needed each day, and those people who have chosen to buy in, buy all the way in, whole hog, all or nothing!

    There is one little lie that ties all the big ones together, and that's both sides do it.

    On a fact basis, we can take a list. And we've done that too. Lots of times. Make a list of the two parties sex or little girl / child related abuses, with convictions. OK, done. The Republican one I put here was 10 Kilobytes in size! Massive. Probably had 200 items on it, all fact based, in the public record. Any of us can go and look that stuff up, and it's right there.

    Where is that list for Democrats?

    I've not seen it. I have went to look for one too. Those lists don't exist, or where they do, there are a few items on them.

    Or more generally, somebody will do something really ugly, and what comes out?

    "But the Democrats" or some variation on it.

    The Iraq war? The closest we've gotten is, "we all hosed that up", which is a both sides thing, insuring we keep the bubble inflated and the illusion intact, when the truth is, we had one party hell bent on a war of choice, and who is mad as hell right now over Obama refusing to start another one, and we had the other party trying to handle things rationally.

    Remember that kids?

    A provisional authorization predicated on Weapons Of Mass Destruction? What did one party do? LIE! They quite literally made the facts fit the policy, and the policy was to go to war with Iraq period.

    Still to this day there are way too many of us who believe there were WMD's, and that they will be found somewhere, if we keep looking hard enough.

    What the fuck do we do with that shit?

    And it's shit! Make no mistake.

    Democrats are no prize. We've all got our complaints, and we all know the large amounts of money in politics is compromising government, and we all know things suck right now and that we could make them run much better, and on it goes.

    That's politics.

    But, Republicans have a very large body of arguably bat shit nuts people, who believe all kinds of shit, who will lie, cheat, steal, fuck their cousin, whatever and when they get caught out on that they cry, "But the Liberals" or "Terrorism" and then go get their personal Jesus, have their wealthy friends put fresh money in their pockets, clean 'em up, shower, shave, wash the shit out of their hair, give them a new suit, and out they go again, and again, and again, as if nothing ever happened!

    There are the Davids, Brooks and Gregory, Newt, McCain, Palin, Bachman, Turtleman, Cruz (who is dangerous in his ability to actually believe all that shit and control the party as he does), all wrong a lot of times!

    Do we ever see that on the TV, other than hints or the odd story from Maddow, or the bloggers, and other indie media?

    No. And it's because facts aren't part of the dialog. It's all about whether or not people can be convinced to go along with the policy, whatever it is, just do it.

    I don't know what to do with that, other than be a complete dick, and yes... ridicule this irrational garbage.

    Why not? It's laughable, if it were not so damn painful.

    Amus is saying SEVEN studies now. Each highlighting how FOX works: The more you watch, the less you actually know, or understand.

    As for both sides, we've got some word smithing, spin, CYA, going on with Democrats. Plenty gets walked back. But it's nothing at all like that bubble containing most Republicans right now.

    And when one of them actually breaks out for a moment, goes lucid, rational? They get shamed, then stuffed in a corner until they are back in the fold proper, that's what happens.

    Pointed questions get asked. No answers. And I'm not talking about one of the ugly abortion dilemmas out there to get a position statement from somebody, I'm talking about basic things, like "Were there actually WMD's, and was the resolution predicated on those or not?" kinds of questions, which simply don't get asked on media very often at all, and mostly when they are asked anywhere at all, we don't get answers, but more "both sides" garbage, and distractions, like abortion, or a nontroversy being propped up as "the scandal worth impeaching", whatever.

    Not about being wrong even. It's totally not about that. Being wrong is a basic thing not even discussed. Notice how Bush simply doesn't exist? And when he gets a mention, it's always "but Clinton" or attack whoever mentioned him with, "Blame bush..." kinds of shit?

    Notice how NOBODY actually takes Republicans own words and plays them back to them with basic questions like, "first you were for the war, until you were against it, which is it?"

    Well, sometimes we get this. And who does it?

    The fucking comedians!

    Or bloggers, who get marginalized as "lefties in their underwear", which may even be true, but does that have anything at all to do with the fact that these people say whatever they want to say, contradict themselves near constantly, and who are wrong so often it's scary, yet we see them involved in the discussion over and over and over? Why?

    The Tea Party is nothing more than a rebranding of the bat shit nuts Republican base, who would take us back to the 1800's on social policy, and center us right in the 20's on economic policy, while waging war on the whole world, just because Jesus and Freedom.

    Which brings me to that two headed unicorn, "independents" who everybody seems to point to as "the answer", when the truth is, most people who claim "independent" really do align strongly with one party or the other, seeking to stay above it all, not be labeled for a side, which also means they can vote for shitty things and people and not face the consequences of those votes.

    Real, rational, Independent voters are what? 5 percent of us tops?

    And wait for it... If only BOTH SIDES would COME TOGETHER, we would all have two headed unicorns, be snorting pixie dust, while swimming in cash!

    The facts say President Obama did exactly that, over and over, pissing the left off more each time, and every time President Obama did this, the Republicans refused all of it, choosing to go full bat shit, even on their own damn bills and ideas, to "make him fail", just because...


    Who the fuck knows? Could be anything! Facts aren't a part of the discussion at all here, so it literally could be anything at all!

    So how exactly do both sides come together?

    Can't happen! Won't happen! Didn't happen! (despite strong efforts to do just that, repeatedly)

    We've got one party packed with crazies, zealots, racists, bigots, oligarchs, theocrats, and god knows what else, all sharing the common goal of punishing "those other people", and "teaching them a lesson", and "taking their country back"

    None of which means jack shit. I challenge you to even get a definition for any of those Orwellian slogans being propped up as policy vision statements or values of some kind. Go ahead. Dare you. Won't happen.

    Maybe this thing Lessig is doing with can work. Maybe it can get some of the money out of politics. That would help some. Votes would matter more, and our choice of people, or their motivations would be better aligned with ordinary people and the realities, fact based realities they face.

    There still would be that bubble though. It's a big, loud, bubble.

    Here, Andrew has spanked away basic statements how many times? Andy? Others?

    And what happens? Some time passes, and out they come again! As if nothing ever happened, and we have every single word here too! All of it, and it doesn't matter at all.

    Because when facts don't matter, other basic things do, and I suppose that is why I'm not nice about any of it. Why bother?

    It's not like some grown up, adult conversation, rational, fact based, means anything does it?

    You've got it on good authority here!

    The only thing left is to beat back the money somehow, and rub faces in things, hoping those of us not in the bubble can motivate ourselves to vote to keep those that are in the bubble in check, at least to limit the damage.

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 11:13 AM #
  7. Andrew

    Romney is going to win in a landslide - all of those liberal polls are wrong, you'll see on election day!!!

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 11:17 AM #
  8. missing_kskd

    And so that begs the question, "why bother?"

    Been asking myself that.

    Answer so far: Have to. No joke.

    That bubble expands, unless we push back with rational dialog and intent to make it better, however that can happen.

    And that sucks big. Not a happy camper here at all.

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 11:27 AM #
  9. Vitalogy

    But if the president’s numbers are bad, Congress’ are even worse.

    Only 14 percent approve of the job Congress is doing – the seventh-straight NBC/WSJ poll dating back to 2011 when this rating has been below 15 percent.

    In addition, Americans hold congressional Republicans in lower regard (19 percent favorable, 54 percent unfavorable) than congressional Democrats (31 percent favorable, 46 percent unfavorable).

    With the midterm elections less than three months away, the NBC/WSJ poll finds 44 percent of voters preferring a GOP-controlled Congress, and 43 percent preferring a Democratic-controlled one.

    The good news for Republicans, according to GOP pollster McInturff: An incumbent president in the low 40s and seven-in-10 Americans thinking the country is on the wrong track is typically good for the opposition party.

    The not-so good news for the GOP: High interest in the elections is down from past midterm elections. And Republicans continue to trail among women by double digits.

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 11:38 AM #
  10. Amus

    The surveys I mentioned;

    May 2012
    Fairleigh Dickinson University

    Survey: NPR’s listeners best-informed, Fox viewers worst-informed

    October 2003
    University of Maryland (PIPA)

    "Those who primarily watch Fox News are significantly more likely than average to have misperceptions"

    August 2009
    NBC- Wall Street Journal

    Fox News viewers overwhelmingly misinformed about health care reform proposals"

    December 2010
    Stanford University, in conjunction with the National Science Foundation

    More exposure to Fox News was associated with more rejection of many mainstream scientists' claims about global warming, with less trust in scientists, and with more belief that ameliorating global warming would hurt the U.S. economy.

    October 2010
    Ohio State University

    "Fox News Contributes to Spread of Rumors About Proposed NYC Mosque."

    December 2010 & Knowledge Networks

    regular Fox News viewers "were significantly more likely" to hold misinformed views

    A seventh Survey from February 2011 by the Kaiser Foundation did not mention Fox News specifically, but found that Republicans in general were misinformed about the ACA.

    Posted on August 6, 2014 - 12:35 PM #